C-Section Vent - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 73 Old 10-09-2004, 10:04 PM
 
Sitara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: California
Posts: 175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
it was kinda a vent of my own frustration. I agree with what you mean about women educating themselves, i'm just fighting being thrown into that category right now.



nurnur4evr - thank you
Sitara is offline  
#62 of 73 Old 10-10-2004, 02:08 AM
 
Fiddlemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: In a state of perpetual amazement
Posts: 826
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hugs to all you hurting women out there!!! And thanks for reminders that our experiences are indeed all different and valid!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
What I don't see is a plan of action. I don't hear anyone talking to these women, I hear them talking at or about them. That's not constructive, it doesn't help anyone and certainly won't change the system.
If anyone has a plan that has worked, tell us _exactly_ how it was done....even on a small scale! A group of women this flared up together can really make things happen! Rage + a good plan= change!

Quote:
What have I done? I have personally encouraged women to seek care outside of the medical model. I have supported women who did not have the births they wanted, and helped them explore the reasons for it. I have been there when they were ready to talk, and have listened without passing judgement.
I've done this too, and continue to do this, and will always do this!

Another fun thing I used to do with a doula was hold an informal 'birth info night' with some expectant mothers or other interested women. We'd watch "Born In the USA" and then have a discussion. It was great, and the women who came were ripe for the information they received and asked a zillion questions.

My own mode of respect (which may be different from everyone else's, and that's fine with me, I admire folks who can be more forthright) leads me to listen carefully to women when they talk, and if there's an opening, share about my own choices in a way that does not put them on the defensive, does not denigrate in any way the choices they've made, does not make assumptions. Otherwise, I keep my mouth shut, if there's no 'teachable moment.'

A lot of people (including me) work quietly in this way and don't have the personalities (or the courage yet, until perchance they get mad enough about the state of things) to work on changing "the system" by approaching big institutions.

Also, the comment I made (and agree with) that not all women care how their babies are born, would rather just get on with having a baby in their arms and raising their kids, is included to suggest: work on changing the minds that want to be changed, women who would likely feel supported and relieved to find out there's another way, rather than wasting a lot of energy on anyone who's totally fine with the state of things.

As mentioned previously, I admire the people who are able to get up on the soapbox and really shout to everyone, out loud, in public, in institutions, that things need to change....perhaps after enough midnight rant-reading on MDC that might be me too
Fiddlemom is offline  
#63 of 73 Old 10-17-2004, 08:48 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by party_of_six
People shouldn't have to defend themselves from doctors.
Obstetricians are like firemen.

Both save lives.

However, firemen do not start the fire.

ITA with everything you have said.
applejuice is offline  
#64 of 73 Old 10-17-2004, 08:51 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
s Sitara!
applejuice is offline  
#65 of 73 Old 10-17-2004, 08:53 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Sitara, I am in Los Angeles.

PM me if you want to!

I probably know those midwives and the doctor.
applejuice is offline  
#66 of 73 Old 10-17-2004, 09:38 PM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice
Obstetricians are like firemen.

Both save lives.

However, firemen do not start the fire.
Wouldn't it be nice if that was true?

Every 8-9 months there's at least one (and usually more than one) fire around here set by a small group of firemen. Sometimes, they're just interested in fire and that's why they became firemen; that kind generally burns abandoned buildings. Then there's the creepier kind, who's out to play the hero. I'll see if there are some local news links I can find for you.

The point I'm trying to make is that in any profession, there will be bad people who are in it for selfish reasons. I don't believe that the majority of firefighters fall into this category, and I don't believe that the majority of doctors do, either.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#67 of 73 Old 10-18-2004, 01:27 AM
 
Crystal_clear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Mat-Su Valley, Alaska
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
The point I'm trying to make is that in any profession, there will be bad people who are in it for selfish reasons. I don't believe that the majority of firefighters fall into this category, and I don't believe that the majority of doctors do, either.
I don't think that's quite how the analogy works. Firefighters are reacting to a problem or crisis, whereas OBs create one with their so-called "standard of care". It has nothing to do with whether s/he is a bad apple, the very nature of what the profession does ("managing" pregnancy & birth) harms women and babies. I would be hard-pressed to think of anything that's done routinely in L&D wards that is evidenced-based.
Crystal_clear is offline  
#68 of 73 Old 10-18-2004, 09:19 AM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_clear
I don't think that's quite how the analogy works. Firefighters are reacting to a problem or crisis, whereas OBs create one with their so-called "standard of care". It has nothing to do with whether s/he is a bad apple, the very nature of what the profession does ("managing" pregnancy & birth) harms women and babies. I would be hard-pressed to think of anything that's done routinely in L&D wards that is evidenced-based.
The analogy only works that way if you start with the assumption that the profession of obstetrics is indeed dedicated to managing pregnancy and birth. That has not been my experience, nor has it been the experience of many of my friends and family. It has everything to do with bad apples-- one or a barrell full, it doesn't matter. The point is, it's unecessary. The fact that you see a doctor during your pregnancy doesn't automatically mean that you must have your pregnancy "managed" at all. Not where I live, anyway. It doesn't mean that your care practitioner is out of touch with normal, natural birth. I've heard many people here describe midwife care which was far more invasive than anything my doctor did during my pregnancy, especially the second one. I was not forced or even pressured to do *anything* I didn't want to do.

This is what I'm trying to say. Not all doctors "cause the fire," as it were. Just like not all firefighters are pyromaniacs, not all doctors are evil members of the establishment out to institutionalize birth. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the millions of doctors who are practicing fear based medicine are doing it based on just that-- fear; not some evil desire to be a cog in the machine. The way to decrease that fear is to educate women and doctors as to their options, and the way to do that is, again, not to log on here and vent about it.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#69 of 73 Old 10-18-2004, 11:52 AM
 
Crystal_clear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Mat-Su Valley, Alaska
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
The analogy only works that way if you start with the assumption that the profession of obstetrics is indeed dedicated to managing pregnancy and birth.

Um, that's the entire basis for the medical model of care vs. the midwifery model.

I don't believe anyone said doctors are evil, even OBs. lol The point is that they do harm mothers and babies, unnecessarily, and at a higher rate than dozens of other countries in this world. Their intent may be good, but it's highly misguided, and one only has to lurk on an OB list for a short time to realize that the majority are not open to evidence-based practices.

Again, this thread was clearly marked as a vent in the subject line. I can't think of a more appropriate forum for this type of post. There *are* lots of women who don't want to be educated, who trust the medical establishment wholeheartedly, and who believe that how a baby is brought into this world does not matter as long as s/he is alive. Most of us understand the frustration this can cause an educated woman who sees her friends and their babies harmed unnecessarily and are able to offer her support. Debriefing is an important part of maintaining one's ability to provide continuing care/support in the face of such circumstances.
Crystal_clear is offline  
#70 of 73 Old 10-18-2004, 03:08 PM
 
wasabi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 2,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I can relate to this. In many times in online communities when it's posted that someone had a c-section people immediately start in with comments about at least the baby's fine etc. Whereas to me as someone who had to fight hair teeth and eyeballs to not have c-sections forced on me for failure to progress and macrosomia with all three of my kids I can relate to the sorrow someone who planned a natural birth could be feeling. This is only heightened if it's someone who was told they were having a 10lb+ baby who just delivered a 7lber!

I have a friend who is newly pg who borrowed several books on birth and pg from me while she was getting ready to TTC. I assumed this indicated an interested in natural birth and so when we were talking about it I was making suggestions about the kinds of questions you'd want to ask your practioner to make sure they matched your goals for birth. She just sort of looked at me blankly and said "well you know at the end of the day all that's going to matter is getting that baby into my arms. If that's with drugs or without them, by c-section or whatever it truly won't matter." It's one thing to say that after you "had" to have a c-section but if you're already at that point before you're even pg you're probably going to end up with an incredibly medicalized birth. She's already had a very early u/s. She asked me if that sounded a little early to me (she was going to be barely 8 weeks) and I said it did and asked what the purpose of doing it was. She had been charting and knew when she conceived. She said she didn't know and would ask. Then later as we were talking about it she said she knew they might not see the heartbeat etc and that she was ok with that. I asked what the next step would be if they couldn't find a heartbeat. Would they do another u/s or where they just trying to check dates? Basically what was the point of the u/s. She responded that she wasn't really sure what the point was. And yet she was still going to do it! I think this kind of attitude is what the OP was talking about. Yes it's horrible that we have to educate ourselves so much since we're theroretically going to medical experts to get their expertise. But if you just float along and do whatever is routine for the doc you just happened to end up with it is hard to listen to for those of us who have to fight so much to get what we want. :
wasabi is offline  
#71 of 73 Old 10-18-2004, 03:10 PM
 
candiland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Waiting for Calgon to take me away.
Posts: 4,107
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
The way to decrease that fear is to educate women and doctors as to their options, and the way to do that is, again, not to log on here and vent about it.
Women may be reading this right now and getting educated. And it feels darn good to be able to go to a place where other people understand where you are coming from and what you are going through. Many women don't have that IRL and the mainstream message boards certainly don't.

From my experience as a doula who's done a lot of hospital births, many doctors do not WANT to be educated. In many instances, the doctors nod their heads at my clients and say, "yes, dear, anything you want..." and when it comes to the birth, they are threatening things and pushing unnecessary interventions and guess what?! - they did not learn a thing.

We can log on to MDC and vent whenever and wherever we want. If there are rules against this, please post them and we will refrain from doing so. Otherwise, you may want to start a new thread entitled "What good does it do to vent at message boards?" I don't mean to be snarky... I've just read that message in your posts over and over again and I don't think it's your place to tell people what to post and how to post it.

candiland is offline  
#72 of 73 Old 10-18-2004, 06:29 PM
 
Peppamint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Not here
Posts: 13,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by candiland
Women may be reading this right now and getting educated. And it feels darn good to be able to go to a place where other people understand where you are coming from and what you are going through. Many women don't have that IRL and the mainstream message boards certainly don't.

From my experience as a doula who's done a lot of hospital births, many doctors do not WANT to be educated. In many instances, the doctors nod their heads at my clients and say, "yes, dear, anything you want..." and when it comes to the birth, they are threatening things and pushing unnecessary interventions and guess what?! - they did not learn a thing.

We can log on to MDC and vent whenever and wherever we want. If there are rules against this, please post them and we will refrain from doing so. Otherwise, you may want to start a new thread entitled "What good does it do to vent at message boards?" I don't mean to be snarky... I've just read that message in your posts over and over again and I don't think it's your place to tell people what to post and how to post it.

candiland- thanks for saying what I wanted to say but couldn't articulate without getting my post removed!

Peppamint is offline  
#73 of 73 Old 10-18-2004, 07:44 PM
 
whimsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: MO
Posts: 883
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
It is a very sad thing that so many sections are done unnesecarily, it truly is- but I think when that is your only option they are beautiful and life saving.

ITA. I have absolutely no doubt my section with the twins saved all three of our lives.

I've got different situation this time though. My doc is VBAC supportive, but he just had a complete rupture last month and it has scared him. He has also told me that if I go into labor and he's not on call, the other docs will not go for a VBAC. So part of me wants to schedule a c/s just so I feel like I have some control. I hate the waiting to find out who will be on call. Not to mention my 2 very UNcrunchy sisters who think I'm crazy for even considering VBAC.
whimsy is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off