Just Say NO! - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 71 Old 02-05-2005, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
CalgonMoment's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I hope this doesn't get me flamed. Please understand this is genuine confusion. I keep reading in hospital birth stories how "they" didn't "let" you do something, or how you were "made" to do something else. I have had three hospital births and they were all pretty good. I am not understanding how a hospital can make you stay in bed or make you have pitocin, or make you deliver in lithotomy position.

I can understand how you might have AROM or episiotomy without consent, but I am trying to figure out how I can politely inform my caregivers that I would consider that assault.

I don't think of myself as a major rebel, and I am fairly coherent in labor. But when my nurse didn't want to give me anything to eat or drink, I insisted that I knew the risks and was willing to assume them. I agreed to a monitor strip as a baseline, but after that told her she could monitor me by hand or forget it, because I was not getting back in that bed. And I told them that I was not going to put my feet in stirrups for birth, end of discussion.

Maybe it is just in hindsight that women feel like they were forced to do something and use those terms, but I am really wondering if women are being physically forced to labor or deliver certain ways? Please tell me your stories. I am at a different hospital this time and would like to know if this may be something I need to be prepared for.
CalgonMoment is offline  
#2 of 71 Old 02-05-2005, 08:59 PM
 
earthmama007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,036
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I believe it is misinformation and scare tactics caregivers and nurses give or they might have a golf game to get to. Some moms don't know they have choices. Something may have happened to them with a previous birth due to interventions and now they are grateful to doctors because 'they saved them or their babys from death'. Now they believe everything the doc says.These are just some reasons of course.
earthmama007 is offline  
#3 of 71 Old 02-05-2005, 09:41 PM
 
Crystal_clear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Mat-Su Valley, Alaska
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A lot of the time it's because of scare tactics, they love to play the dead-baby card. Or sometimes they say, "oh sure you can walk with the IV" or "oh sure, let's just get a 20-minute strip, then you can walk" and the story changes after they've got your cooperation. Sometimes they wait until the mother is a little out of it and less resistant - I've read many stories where mom didn't want something done but was unable to verbalize her objections. I have also read some stories where women were physically forced. Don't forget, it wasn't that long ago that women were put in restraints for hospital birth. And of course, when one is being presented with options and alternatives, the one that is never mentioned is "we can do nothing".
Crystal_clear is offline  
#4 of 71 Old 02-05-2005, 09:43 PM
 
LoveChild421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North GA
Posts: 4,593
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
this is one of the major reasons I am birthing at home- I have heard things from friends that range from "they threatened to call DCFS" to "they said my baby would die" to "they kicked me while I was down when I was in the most pain- saying epidural, epidural, etc, wouldn't you like some pitocin to speed up things so you don't have to hurt so much, etc"

I know that I may be strong enough to say no- but I don't want to have to- I want to know that everyone is on board and will honor my wishes. I don't want to have to fight or remain coherent while giving birth.

I know a lot of women who are just not able to stand up for themselves in birth situations- I'm glad you were able to- I hate hearing about "they wouldn't let me" "they made me" etc.

Jen read.gif Mama of 2 precious boys blowkiss.gif (9)  flowersforyou.gif (6)  and still in heartbeat.gif with my Matt hat.gif after 12 years together. 

rainbow1284.gif Domestic Violence Children's Advocate and Counselor hug2.gif

 homebirth.jpg bf.jpg nocirc.gif ribbonjigsaw.gif 

LoveChild421 is offline  
#5 of 71 Old 02-05-2005, 10:45 PM
 
Full Heart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Surronded by Dairy Farms AZ
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
When I had my hospital birth I was so out of it. 36 hour labor (hard hard labor), all alone, totally out of it. Before I got to the hospital I couldn't even sit up anymore on my own. So when I was left alone I could hardly speak or open my eyes. They started pit without my consent. Even if I wanted to say no I couldn't. After my midwife came back and my dh and mother showed up I fianlly got stuff done but with me alone they could have sectioned me and I wouldn't have had a say. My midwife was livid they started pit and they hadn't had me try to pee or cathed me yet. Of course as soon as they did that baby moved down and wow I'm complete and want to push. At this point I actually had a conversation with my midwife and I can't recall it at all. I completely blacked out. After the birth I hemmoraged and had very little to eat. No one to help me pee. Oh it was lovely. They took my baby without my consent because again I was alone and couldn't say no. At this point I was up for 48 hours. My baby kept crying and I kept falling asleep having terrible nightmares.

Now I am a very strong generally. My fil calls me a snot nosed little brat lol. Which is why I have hbs. I am not one to sit by and be the good patient. My hospital birth I couldn't be strong anymore and there was no one to advocate for me. It does happen. Now most women I know who have this happen just don't know their options or rights. But me I did, and I still couldn't excercise them.

michelle

Expecting #9.  Always busy hsing.
Full Heart is offline  
#6 of 71 Old 02-05-2005, 11:12 PM
 
Kiki Runs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: KS
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Eh, hypothetically, you're right - just say no, end of story. In real life, though, it doesn't always work so well.

Just so you know, I'm NOT offended or upset, just want to try to shed some light on this.

I ended up with an unnecessary c/s - completely iatrogenic. My birth plan clearly stated no AROM, do not offer drugs, basically just leave me alone (let me walk, eat, drink, whatever I want). It was signed off on by the OBs in the practice I was using, the OB nurse who taught our "childbirth education" class (what a joke, but anyway) looked it over and saw no problem with it (BTW, she also ended up being my nurse during my labor - two different shifts). Good to go, right? No.

Despite my birth plan clearly stating no AROM, I was REPEATEDLY "asked" if I wanted it - I would guess I was asked five times. A few of the times, I was told that I *would* want it eventually b/c it would speed up my labor, and that the doc was going to go lay down and sleep for the night, so basically I better do it now or wait until morning. Every time AROM was offered, I politely declined and reminded the nurse that my birth plan said no AROM. When I was told the doc was going to go to sleep, I said "fine, I'll see him tomorrow". The doc actually came into my room before he went to lay down to try to talk me into it. I still held out. Finally, in the early morning hours (I think around 5ish), I was "asked" again. I asked my DH what he thought I should do - he said "go ahead". Even though we had discussed it prior to labor and he knew his job was to remind me I didn't want it, even though I KNEW I didn't want it - I was just beat down. How many times should someone have to decline a non-necessary procedure? Obviously, *I* should have done it at least one more time, lol!

So I agreed. AROM was done, my ctx immediately got horrible - back labor. I toughed it out for awhile - sat on a birth ball, tried hands and knees on the bed, walked a bit. *I* didn't know what else to do, my mom didn't know, my DH didn't know. We asked the nurse what else we could try, she offered drugs (remember, my birth plan specifically says DON'T offer drugs, this lady has seen my birth plan and said she completely supported me in it). No thanks, I said, I don't want drugs. Fine, whatever, says nurse and she leaves. That's it - no more suggestions of what I could do. I got back in the bathtub, which helped a bit, she wants me to get out for monitoring. I eventually agree to a vag check (I wanted to know how much progress all this hard work was making). According to the nurse, I have now REGRESSED in my dilation. I believe her, b/c I can feel myself tensing during a ctx and suspect I may be pushing a bit during them. I found out later by looking at my medical records that she LIED to me - I had NOT regressed, in fact I had dilated maybe 1/2 cm more since last check (which she had also done, and she recorded the two checks, so it's not a matter of different measurements or an "oops" - she KNEW). So at that point, I agreed to the epidural.... thinking that I HAD to relax somehow in order to dilate enough to have this baby.

So I have the epidural. Now I cannot get up, cannot get myself anything to eat or drink, I'm basically stuck in the bed - have to have help to turn from side to side! I ask my mom for a drink, she asks the nurse, nurse says no b/c I could throw it up. I can't exactly get up and get myself the drink, my mom won't go against the medical flow, not much I can do about this. Eventually, I start vomiting anyway. At that point, I (somehow, not sure how I was lucid enough for this logic, lol) pointed out that since I was vomiting anyway, might as well let me drink. Nurse finally agrees, tells my mom that I can have a few sips of water. Again, mom follows orders. Same for food - I BEGGED for food, mom says no b/c nurse says no. Again, after I started puking, I was "allowed" A cracker. Yes, it did come right back up, but that was better (to me) than the dry-heaving.


Fast-forward to the actual pushing. I was, like they say, flat on my back, lithotomy position. I was told that the epidural was "turned off" once I felt the need to push, but I do not believe that anymore (based on the fact that LESS THAN three hours after my c/s, I was able to move myself). So I pushed and pushed, for three hours. During that time, I was "cheerleaded", despite my birth plan stating NOT to do it. I was not in any condition to ask them to stop - maybe a stronger person could have, but by this time I was just beat down and following orders, yk? Purple pushing, for three hours, with multiple threats of c/s. I freaked out at every mention, and the doc "allowed" me to continue pushing. I asked for help to get onto hands and knees (and, seriously, I think I deserve a medal for even THINKING of that by that point), and was told that if I could flip MYSELF over to hands and knees, the nurse would "help" me stay there. WTH??!! Needless to say, I could not accomplish this feat, so remained flat on my back. Now I wish I had thought to demand they help me, or at the very least help me on my side, but at the time, I could NOT think of these things - like I said, I congratulate myself every time I remember that I even thought to ask about hands and knees. So more pushing, flat on my back. Have I mentioned that we could touch DS' head? DH, my mom, and myself all rubbed his little head and saw what color his hair was, he was so far down. Almost there!

Finally, the doc (with an apologetic expression :eyeroll) said that we were going to "have" to do a c/s. No, baby was not in distress, I was not in distress (well, other than the distress from being repeatedly threatened with a c/s). The only reason for the c/s was that the doc felt we'd waited long enough. Yeah, I know I could have refused it - NOW. At the time, it wasn't presented as an optional thing. It took an hour from that time to prep me and get me to the OR, and I bawled my head off the whole time. The anesthesiologist admonished me to hold still, I was crying so hard.


There were a lot of moments in there where I *could* have just said no, and looking back I *should* have just said no, and I very much wish I *had* just said no, but at the time, it wasn't that easy. There were also times where I repeatedly DID say no, and it was ignored.

I have gone over and over and over DS' birth in my mind, and I know just how many times *I* made the wrong call, wasn't assertive enough, whatever. BUT at the time, I was doing the best I could. I did NOT expect for my wishes to be completely ignored - especially since they had been approved by both the docs AND the nurses on the floor. I guess I was naive, b/c I never imagined that I would be in the situation that I was. I thought that docs/nurses would have my best interest at heart, and they would do their best to follow my birthplan. Now I know better, and I will not EVER put myself in a situation like that again.

Had I had a doula, things might have been different. Had my DH and my mom been more committed to helping me "rebel" and less compliant with the hospital's policies, things might have been different. Had I been able to advocate for myself better, things might have been different. But none of those were the case.




Like someone else said, I shouldn't HAVE to defend myself while I'm laboring. If I decline AROM once, that should have been the end of it - in fact, I should not have even been ASKED about AROM. So many things went wrong, and I've been over and over what I should have done differently - I highly doubt that the docs/nurses have even given my DS' birth a second thought. Whereas I have suffered from PPD and PTSD from it, and have cried myself to sleep many nights, knowing that I SHOULD have just said no.



Like I said, I'm not offended, I just want to present a different side. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent woman (I was a National Merit Scholar - woo-woo, lol). I did educate myself before DS' birth, though admittedly not to the extent that I am now. I thought I had prepared myself for the birth - I just had not prepared myself for the hospital staff. I also recognize (now) that my personality is not such that I can assert myself easily. I tend to try to please "authority" figures, and so it was tough for me to repeatedly say no to the nurses or docs - though I did!


After my experience, I have come to realize that I will NEVER feel comfortable giving birth in a hospital again (barring TRUE emergencies). And I will not do it - that simple. I can't guarantee that I would be able to defend myself during labor any better the next time (I certainly HOPE I would, but can't guarantee it), and more importantly, I don't believe I should have to. I don't want to be pulled out of my labor-land far enough to sensibly defend myself, and so won't put myself in a position where I might have to.


So, while it sounds good in theory to "just say no", in practice it's not that easy. Apparently, "no" doesn't always mean "no" when you're in a hospital.


I've heard some good stories about births in hospitals, but I've heard many more bad ones. Based on my experience, there's just no way I could ever have enough trust in the medical "professionals" to relax enough to birth, even if I was in an amazing hospital. I'd always be suspicious and waiting for the other shoe to drop. Once bitten, twice shy, I guess.


Kinsey
Kiki Runs is offline  
#7 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 12:18 AM
 
sarajane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 827
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for sharing your story. Sorry it was a bad experience for you.

I have heard many, many stories just like yours. Out of all the birth stories I have heard about 95% of the hospital stories have been bad experiences even for women who wanted drugs and complied willingly with the hospital's way of doing things.

I understand you not being able to say no. I asked my mid-wife and her assistant about the births they did that ended up being really long and ended up in a hospita transfer and in ALL the cases it was a case of emotional stress from outside sources. (sad to say one of them came from a doula who cared more for the hubby than the mother if you know what I am saying) Things were going fine for this mother until this point apparently.

Emotions obviously play a big part in our ability to let go and let our body do what it needs to get the baby out. She said that everything was fine in these births, no distress or anything and things slowed only when the mother had some outside distraction that caused her to stress, get sad, upset, etc. None of the distractions had to do with what was actually going on in the labor. Labor was normal and the baby was fine.

I believe she told my husband and I this to help us to understand the importance of keeping out unwanted interruptions during my labor. I already knew this but she really drove the point home for me. In one case the labor ended up being over two days long and the baby came when the mother felt better emotionally and was ready to go.

I can't imagine being relaxed and ready to go in a place where everyone is pushing me to do things I don't want to do. Yeah, I can say no but think about all the distractions. Think about all the stress it can possibly cause. The story above goes to show that a woman in labor cannot always keep everyone around her in check and she shouldn't have to do so.

I haven't been in labor yet but from all I have read, all the stories, facts, good and bad....it would seem that being in the hospital whether you want to be or not (in most cases not all) just causes too much discomfort (emotional and physical), distraction, unwanted intervention, and just makes labor take longer and makes it more difficult. Even causes complications. There are situations where hospital is best but I don't think they come along as often as the doctors would like us to think, not near as often.

I did search doctors out some and even went to see one for my first prenatal and have yet to meet any doctor or nurse who isn't pushy at least a little bit. I really had to fight just to get answers to the questions I wanted and needed to ask at that prenatal. After that I knew I was having my baby at home. I had decided before that on a homebirth and that one visit really convinced me beyond any shadow of a doubt.

I personally don't want to be treated that way. More like prisoner than a patient. That one doctor visit was traumatic enough for me.

Stay at home wife to Jason for 7 years Mama to Larissa Mae 2 years old :, Gavin Clay 7 months :, and Neveah Ann April 24, 2005 to July 13, 2007 ED for my food allergic babe. :::
sarajane is offline  
#8 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 01:13 AM
 
orangebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Barack's Camp, and still loving Mah
Posts: 7,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I knew I had choices but the nurse threatened me with my baby's health. I cried begged and screamed no when she told me I needed to stay in bed. I needed help getting all the equipment off me. I wasn't brave enough to just break it. I was afraid that messing with it trying to figure out how to get it off would break it or something. I needed help to figure out how to get up with the IV. The bag was hanging on a pole that was fastened to the bed, not the kind on wheels. I didn't know anything about medical stuff and didn't know how do hep-lock the IV myself or that I could pull the bag off the hook and carry it, I didn't know how it worked and thought I would get air into the tubing if I tried to mess with it myself. I DID say no. I screamed no. She was mean and scary and would yell at me for moving when the baby's heart rate wouldn't be picking up on the monitor good. I knew that if she got that mean just for me shifting my butt on the bed she would get real mean if I started pulling things off and breaking them. After a couple hours of that she told me my baby could die because I was too stressed out. You bet I was stressed out I had been crying and begging to get up and the pain was excruciating. By this time I was in hard labor and not in the mental capacity to rationalize. She told me I needed the epidural to save my baby's life and I believed it. Sounds dumb, we sit here with clear minds and know that wasn't true, but this was my first baby, I was near transition and it hurt like hell, the nurse told me something could be hurting my baby and of course I did what she told me would "save" him. I am so resentful of that nurse and the whole experience. It is easy to sit here and say "you should have _______" but it is a whole different ball game when you are a first time mom hitting transition. You need to A) either stay away from the hospital completely, or B) get shit straightened out before you are in hard labor. By that I mean make sure you have a nurse that respects your wishes while the pain is still at a managable level. My labor came on so fast and hard by the time I got to the hospital my contractions were 2-3 minutes apart and over a minute long. Or even closer probably, they were 3 minutes apart when I was timing them at home and it was much worse at the hospital.

I had a birth plan written up, it was probably tossed out by the nurse as she didn't do one thing on it. My doctor had told me I could walk around, that I could have the natural, calm, quiet birth I desired. That didn't matter.

I know it is not just hindsight making me feel like I was forced. I know this because I was literally crying and BEGGING. She didn't even want to help me up out of bed to go pee. When I asked the second time she offered me a urinary catheter. Real sweet. Was I forced to have a catheter? No. I could have just peed in the bed. I have written this story so many times so sorry if it is not in storybook form. It was real begging and pleading and the nurse saying no. Now that I know a little more, know I can just rip the IV out of my arm if I want and that I won't break the EFM taking it off I would just rip out the IV and rip off the monitor and get up and tell the nurse where to go and find a new one. I would do this now. But back then I really didn't feel comfortable manipulating the equipment. I wish I had been more ballsy and just ripped the stuff off and threw it across the room.

I went on to have a healing second birth at home and god willing I will never birth in the hospital again. If I do ever end up there I won't be afraid to tear the equipment off myself. I know now that I can ask for a different nurse. And I know to bring someone with me who will stand up to them when I am in hard labor and aren't able to fight for myself.
orangebird is offline  
#9 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 02:48 AM
 
Crystal_clear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Mat-Su Valley, Alaska
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This was just recently posted on the ICAN list. From a medical journal (reference at the bottom):

Getting a stubborn patient to say Yes

When a woman threatened to compromise her own and her baby's health, this doctor was able to defuse the situation with a "one-text" solution.

By Rajamalliga N. "Lee" Sharma, MD

I walked into Labor and Delivery on a slow Sunday morning. The board was empty, giving every indication that this would be a nice, calm day. Then my partner dropped a bomb. "A patient I've seen a lot of is coming in," he said. "She's a previous section, and broke her water an hour ago. You may have a tough time with her. She's got a mind of her own and is bent on doing this her way."

I nodded and smiled. "No problem." Most people are fairly cooperative once they reach Labor and Delivery. I didn't anticipate any difficulty.

That was at 9 am. By 2 pm, the patient had not yet arrived, and I'd gone home to wait. When I phoned the hospital at 3, a nurse told me that the patient had finally come in, but "just to have her cervix checked." She fully intended to labor at home, and assumed we'd do what she asked and send her on her way. At the time, according to the nurse's exam, she was dilated 1 cm. Although she had been talked into seeing me, she'd refused admission, monitors, IV, even a hospital gown. I told the exasperated nurse I'd be there momentarily.

As I climbed into my car, I thought about how I was going to handle the situation. Fortunately, I had studied conflict resolution, and began to consider what course of action I could take that the patient might find satisfactory.

In conflict situations, many tools can be drawn upon to help resolve the situation and avoid making things worse. In their book, Getting to Yes, Roger Fisher and William Ury describe a joint problem-solving process called the "one-text" procedure, which I thought might be effective here. This method requires you to understand the other person's concerns, then address them by crating a detailed solution. The solution is the one-text – a statement of goals and how to reach them. It must be something the other party can respond to with either Yes or No. The one-text approach leaves no room for negotiating or uncertainty. If it's rejected, it must be revised until consensus is reached. What makes the one-text approach so effective in doctor-patient relationships is that it moves us away from trying to defend our point of view, and toward a more cooperative and sympathetic mindset in which we consider our patient's needs as well as our own. It also encourages us and our patients to refine our ideas so we can reach an agreement based on mutual objectives.

For the one-text method to succeed, certain things should be avoided.

1. Don't get angry. The initial thought that went through my head when the nurse phoned me was, "How dare this woman! Here it is, Sunday afternoon, I've been waiting for her since 9, and when she finally shows up six hours later and has the gall to order us around!" I had to stop and remind myself that her behavior was not directed at me. Patients who make these kinds of demands are usually trying to control the situation in an effort to keep their own fear in check. Few things are as daunting as labor, especially for someone who has had a primary cesarean delivery. If I walked into that room irritated, I realized, all I would do is ruin the possibility of maintaining a good working relationships with my patient.

2. Don't get pushy. Back in the "good old days", the doctor's word was law. If a physician said that jumping in the air three times induced labor, patients would be out on a trampoline. But today we encourage patients to be active participants in their own care, rather than taking our word as gospel. Although it's sometimes inconvenient and time-consuming, allowing the patient to participate in decision-making enhances the relationships between caregiver and recipient.

3. Don't counterattack. I had to be prepared for the possibility that, because she was scared, this woman might hurl ultimatums and insults at me. Such hostility, I reminded myself, wasn't a personal attack. By keeping a level head - and using humor, hand-holding, and other supportive behavior - I could prevent the conflict from escalating.

Part of understanding conflict is realizing that specific motives usually underlie another person's demands. Designing the one-text with a contrary patient can help you understand what his or her motives may be. On that Sunday, I began by unhurriedly taking the patient's history in order to get to know her. I learned that she wanted a vaginal delivery because she hoped to return to her work as a missionary in South America as soon as possible. I also found that she had tried to educate herself about active management of labor, but that her understanding of it was incomplete. Mentally, I adjusted my one-text based on her background. Since she knew something about labor and delivery, I reasoned that she would cooperate with us if I explained, from a medical standpoint, exactly why certain things had to be done in order for her to have a healthy baby.

"My two goals for you, which I believe you share, are, first, to have a vaginal delivery, if possible, and second, to have a healthy baby." She nodded. "Because you had a C-section in the past, specific risks must be addressed. The most worrisome complication of a vaginal birth after a C-section is separation of the scar on the uterus. The first indication of this would be an abnormality in the baby's heartbeat. That's why continuous monitoring will be very helpful. Also, since you're not having any contractions yet, we should consider low-dose Pitocin to start your labor; if we wait too long, we'll risk an infection from ruptured membranes. And an IV would help protect you and your baby in the event of an emergency, which I hope won't happen." Having put my one-text solution on the table, I asked, "Are these things that you agree with and think you can do?"
Although this patient had adamantly refused attentive care minutes earlier, she now knew why such measures were critical to a safe vaginal delivery. Her demeanor suddenly altered. No longer the stubborn, difficult patient who had so frustrated her nurse, she answered my question with a simple, "Yes, I can." She was placed on a monitor, received an IV, and was started on Pitocin. Four hours later, I delivered her healthy baby boy vaginally.

A situation that was potentially rife with conflict was resolved in a constructive way and resulted in a very positive experience for both patient and physician. Perhaps the most important lesson was that conflict itself presents a valuable opportunity to become better and more creative. If we can approach conflict without fear, the possibilities are endless.

Medical Economics - Obstetrics-Gynecology - October 2000,
p. 80.
Crystal_clear is offline  
#10 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 03:09 AM
 
sarajane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 827
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
The initial thought that went through my head when the nurse phoned me was, "How dare this woman! Here it is, Sunday afternoon, I've been waiting for her since 9, and when she finally shows up six hours later and has the gall to order us around!"
I hadn't finished reading yet but had to say how absolutely angered I am at a doctor having this mindset. I sure wouldn't want a doctor with that kind of attitude. Waiting on her since 9! My goodness, babies don't come on a time schedule!

Stay at home wife to Jason for 7 years Mama to Larissa Mae 2 years old :, Gavin Clay 7 months :, and Neveah Ann April 24, 2005 to July 13, 2007 ED for my food allergic babe. :::
sarajane is offline  
#11 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 05:52 AM
 
Greaseball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 8,764
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
In my hospital birth, I agreed to things I wrote in my birth plan that I would not do, such as AROM, monitor and forceps delivery. I knew how to be stubborn and say no, but those nurses were just so nice and the doctor really was welcoming and pleasant, I didn't feel like arguing!

The issues that were of greatest importance - dh's right to be with me at all times, dd never being taken away from me, and no drugs - never even came up, so I didn't have a chance to argue about those.

What about the threat of insurance not paying if you don't follow orders? That may be an issue for some people.
Greaseball is offline  
#12 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 08:50 AM
 
Quirky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 12,113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The inability to say no to interventions isn't limited to the hospital context. I had my ds in a freestanding birth center, thinking that would help prevent me from having to deal with pushy obs/nurses in the first instance. Well, I ended up with a medwife, not a midwife. AROM, purple pushing on my back/semi-sitting, catheter, episiotomy, deep suctioning of ds on my perineum because of light meconium staining - the works.

I think in part because I didn't have any drugs, my head was so far off in non-rational labor land I was NOT able to summon the mental power to refuse. And I was very educated about birth, interventions, etc. My dh is much more medically compliant than I am, not to mention less educated about natural birth, so went along with the midwife's suggestions and didn't advocate for me, and my doula didn't show up. So I was essentially on my own, and that wasn't good enough.

It's great if you can stay rational enough to say no. But I think you have to take into consideration not only the standard operating procedures of many hospitals - and midwives! - but also the issue of whether a laboring woman can be, or should be, expected to stay in her "rational" mind as opposed to letting go and letting her animal brain take over.

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

Quirky is offline  
#13 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 09:52 AM
 
cmb123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Doula, doula...get a doula...

We can't "save" you from interventions, but we can help you advocate for yourself while in the hospital. Remind you of your goals, see through some of the medical jargon, and be that clear head to help you weigh your options in the moment. Not to mention we're pretty good at helping through contractions too !
cmb123 is offline  
#14 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 10:46 AM
 
Henry's_Mamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: One Step Closer to Insanity
Posts: 904
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just want to second about 90% of what Kinsey said. I have a very similar birth story and (it seems) personality while in labor. And my dh flaked out a bit too. Labor is all consuming, and when it's your first, and you are being told things you had never considered prior to birth, it is difficult to differentiate between the bs and the truth. In my case, my membranes spontaneously ruptured at home (after about 10 hours of contractions over night, so when my water broke, I'd been up for about 24 hours). I went in to the hospital and was told I had to stay in bed on my back b/c there was now a risk of cord prolapse (a real emergency) b/c ds was not fully engaged. How do you argue with that? Maybe I could have argued that they were being ridiculous (which, in hindsight, based on further research, I think they were) if I had tons of info. at my hands, but even so, despite being fairly well educated about birth, I didn't know what to say. Further, I'm not so sure that I would've been able to articulate my arguments in any kind of coherent, positive way. So, I think it largely depends on the personalities of everyone involved (not every person is good at being their own advocate in labor -- and not every dh or labor partner is willing to challenge the establishment), but more importantly, on how each woman's labor is progressing. I think many women who don't have problems arguing in hospitals have labors that naturally follow the medical establishment's idea of what "normal" labor is. Those that don't follow that curve have problems and threats and coercion.

To the op ... talk to everyone you can find who has delivered in your new hospital, esp. those in the "natural" birth community (maybe attend a LLL meeting and ask around). Go on a tour. Talk to your drs., mws, and the nursing staff. Make a birth plan. Educate yourself and your labor partner/dh. Hire a doula.

Good luck!
Henry's_Mamma is offline  
#15 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 12:29 PM
 
Artisan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Sometimes saying no doesn't work. I had a hospital delivery with my first, and despite being told by the nurse during the tour and my midwife that I would be able to having "rooming in" when the baby was born, that didn't happen. The hospital had a policy that dads had to go home at 8:00 pm once you were moved to the recovery ward, and moms had two choices. 1) Keep the baby with you in the room but leave the lights on. Babies were not allowed to be with moms in the dark. 2) Turn out the lights to get some sleep but send the baby to the nursery.

I'm pretty assertive, and verbally told them that the baby did not belong to them, he belonged to me. And that I was going to get some sleep and the baby would be fine. The nurses came in REPEATEDLY to turn the lights back on in the room, citing hospital policy. I asked to speak to their higher-up. I called my husband, I called my midwife, they all spoke to management, management wouldn't budge. I hadn't slept in days. I was exhausted.

My point is that sometimes saying no just results in a giant battle which most women in labor and post partum women don't feel like fighting.
Artisan is offline  
#16 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 12:30 PM
 
Quindin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
IMO If it was so easy to just "say no" when the hospital personel tried push, scare or bully a woman into doing something she does not want or had not planned to, then there would be no use for Doulas.
Quindin is offline  
#17 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 01:19 PM
 
LoveChild421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North GA
Posts: 4,593
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Greaseball, insurance can only threaten to not pay if you sign yourself and your baby out against medical advice (AMA).

Jen read.gif Mama of 2 precious boys blowkiss.gif (9)  flowersforyou.gif (6)  and still in heartbeat.gif with my Matt hat.gif after 12 years together. 

rainbow1284.gif Domestic Violence Children's Advocate and Counselor hug2.gif

 homebirth.jpg bf.jpg nocirc.gif ribbonjigsaw.gif 

LoveChild421 is offline  
#18 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 01:26 PM
 
Quindin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by reader
moms had two choices. 1) Keep the baby with you in the room but leave the lights on. Babies were not allowed to be with moms in the dark. 2) Turn out the lights to get some sleep but send the baby to the nursery.
Quindin is offline  
#19 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
CalgonMoment's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow, I have had my eyes opened. I guess I have had it pretty easy. I have a dh who is a nurse and is very supportive of my pov, even when he thinks I am a bit extreme. So the medical end of it isn't as scary to me. and maybe because the L&D nurses know him, they don't pull the kind of nonsense that they would on others. I am humbled. Even my most frustrating births were cakewalks compared to what I have read here.

It probably has also helped that I don't get uncommunicative when I am in labor. Only during contractions. Otherwise I can communicate easily even through my (quick) transitions. This is probably why I am still willing to do hospital births. If I had to go through what some of you have. . . I would no doubt be having a home birth.

Thank you all for sharing your pain and frustration. I think I understand a little bit more of how medicalized birth CAN be forced upon you.
CalgonMoment is offline  
#20 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 02:40 PM
 
cmb123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by polihaupt
IMO If it was so easy to just "say no" when the hospital personel tried push, scare or bully a woman into doing something she does not want or had not planned to, then there would be no use for Doulas.
Sure there would! That's only part of what a doula does.
Doulas attend homebirths too, not just hospital. Women need support in other ways besides fending off unwanted interventions!
cmb123 is offline  
#21 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 05:05 PM
 
StarMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: California
Posts: 4,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I too, had the experience of not being able to say "No!". I planned a homebirth, and had a birthplan written up in the case of being transfered. Well, since I was still using my insurance and ob for testing and such to save some $, I was there the day before my due date, and they tested my urine. Said it was +3 and therefore I had pre-eclampsia. No elevated bp, just the urine. When I was having a TON of bloody show. Blood=protein.

I was induced (well I was in early labor, dialated to 3 prior to this), given mag sulfate, put on continuious internal montioring, iv, cath, high doses of pitocin (because mag sulfate stops labor) the works. When I talked to the doctor and asked if we could do anything differently, they said no. They spoke about the risk of death to me and baby. I had to call my Dh to come, and he was so freaked out he was crying and had to have his mom drive him because he *honestly* thought I was going to DIE. You do NOT argue with doctors when you think, honest to GOD, that you are going to DIE. That your baby is going to DIE. You don't sit there and go through all the information you have researched and remember facts and figures when you think your life is at a serious risk. Hell I didn't even *think* about the bloody show = protein in the urine catch because I was bombared with "death death death". And I was educated.

I even have on video after Orion was born the nurse *admitting* that I did NOT have pre-eclampsia. So I was played as a fool and THEY KNEW IT. If they *really* thought I had pre-eclampsia I could understand all the measures they took. I mean pre-eclampsia IS a big deal. And IS life threatening. But the BS'ed me just to induce me.

I tried SO hard to stick up for myself, and I'm SO easily walked on by medical professionals. I refused an induction at THIRTY FIVE *weeks* because of my fundal height being big (uh, I'm a plus sized woman, DUH! and the measurements didn't jump from like 34 to 40 or something, it was consistant) and the doctor was going on and ON about "he's so big already, he's *already* 8 pounds, going to be HUGE if you go to term, blah blah blah". He was 7 pounds 2 ounces born ON his due date. He would have been a bitty little preemie for NO reason if I hadn't said no.

Along the same lines, AFTER his birth I was asked by no less than 5 people about circumsizing him. Even though the birth plan said no. Even though I wrote refused on the paperwork. It even got to the point where the scheduling person came in to set up a time for the doctor to come do it, and I said NO. Then the next day the person who takes the babies to do the circ came in to take him in, even with my multiple NO's! I was flabbergasted! If he had been in the bassinet, and I asleep, they would have JUST TOOK HIM. With MULTPLE refusals! You shouldn't have to FIGHT to keep your son intact!

Lisa, mama to Orion (7) , Fiona Star (born sleeping @ 38wks 12/6/08) , our bitty (m/c 7/27/09) , and Charlotte Athena (11/5/10)
StarMama is offline  
#22 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 05:11 PM
 
AnnMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Heart
Now I am a very strong generally. My fil calls me a snot nosed little brat lol. Which is why I have hbs. I am not one to sit by and be the good patient. My hospital birth I couldn't be strong anymore and there was no one to advocate for me. It does happen. Now most women I know who have this happen just don't know their options or rights. But me I did, and I still couldn't excercise them.

michelle
This is exactly what happened to me at my last birth when they wanted to give me antibiotics because I had refused to be tested for GBS while pregnant. My husband was there, but he didn't stand up for me. I wasn't in any condition at the time to fight them off. I tried, but my back up wasn't there for me. I had a hell of a time at the hospital because I refused everything for the baby. They even had the head of maternity come in and talk to me, lied to me, to get me to do what they wanted, but I refused.

It's not very easy to advocate for yourself during childbirth.
AnnMarie is offline  
#23 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 06:06 PM
 
sarajane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 827
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So much for a woman having a right to do what she wants with her own body.

Hospitals are more like prisons. To have to fight to do what you want with your own child.

Stay at home wife to Jason for 7 years Mama to Larissa Mae 2 years old :, Gavin Clay 7 months :, and Neveah Ann April 24, 2005 to July 13, 2007 ED for my food allergic babe. :::
sarajane is offline  
#24 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 06:43 PM
 
OnTheFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,747
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalgonMoment
I hope this doesn't get me flamed. Please understand this is genuine confusion. I keep reading in hospital birth stories how "they" didn't "let" you do something, or how you were "made" to do something else. I have had three hospital births and they were all pretty good. I am not understanding how a hospital can make you stay in bed or make you have pitocin, or make you deliver in lithotomy position.

I can understand how you might have AROM or episiotomy without consent, but I am trying to figure out how I can politely inform my caregivers that I would consider that assault.

I don't think of myself as a major rebel, and I am fairly coherent in labor. But when my nurse didn't want to give me anything to eat or drink, I insisted that I knew the risks and was willing to assume them. I agreed to a monitor strip as a baseline, but after that told her she could monitor me by hand or forget it, because I was not getting back in that bed. And I told them that I was not going to put my feet in stirrups for birth, end of discussion.

Maybe it is just in hindsight that women feel like they were forced to do something and use those terms, but I am really wondering if women are being physically forced to labor or deliver certain ways? Please tell me your stories. I am at a different hospital this time and would like to know if this may be something I need to be prepared for.
WOO HOOOOO, someone finally said it here in this forum. Something I have wanted to say so many times before. I live in Lower Alabama where things at times are backwards and the csection rate is extremely high -- there is one hospital here that tends to be "Forgetful" or not mindful of parents wishes after the children are born, Ligmom here had her son actually circumcised without her consent and my daughter had proceedures done to her without our consent at the same hospital, but the other hospitals I have attended, I've not had this problem.
In fact, my last two OBs have been pretty laid back and given me everything I wanted in regards to how I wanted my csections handled and even my pregnancy. If I didnt want certain proceedures, testing, etc done -- I said so. I know other women who have had no problem asserting theirselves at this same hospital and getting what they want -- and I know several natural birthers who have done it and they didn't meet much if any resistance in doing so. Maybe its how you approach things. I am lucky to have a sister in the medical field and no my way around medical jargon and educated myself about things. I kind of go in, present my case and ask for what I want. I've been a labor coach several times, and only once did I have a friend get talked to into an epidural (and the OB used emotional blackmail to get her to do it)
OnTheFence is offline  
#25 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 06:50 PM
 
mandib50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: my own reality
Posts: 4,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i would add that during labor a woman is in a different place emotionally and although we do say no and want to keep saying no, it wears us down to do so and keep doing so. in any other situation, we would likely be able to stand firm.

my first was a hospital birth that ended up in a c-sec. i really was given no choice about the interventions, no one informed me of the side effects or risks of certain procedures, it was just, we're going to do this now. and once that ball of intervention starts, it's pretty difficult to turn back and say no. i remember the nurse kept asking do you want drugs now, everytime she came into the room! well, by the end i agreed because i didn't know what to do or try and instead of her offering the emotional support i really would have done fine with, it was do you want the drugs now.

and then, well, flat on my back with everyone telling me to push and oh the baby's not coming and we better get the OB and then how do you say no to forceps? because i knew at that point it was all heading downhill pretty quickly to a c-sec.

i just think it's a medical profession that uses as the other posters said tactics to scare us into things, and just once one intervention starts, that necessitates another that we can't refuse.

absolutely a doula is critical for a hospital birth in my mind. me, i stayed home for the next 3!
mandi

Midwifery student , Mama to my 4 amazing kids. treehugger.gif

mandib50 is offline  
#26 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 07:49 PM
 
watermamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 245
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_clear
This was just recently posted on the ICAN list. From a medical She was placed on a monitor, received an IV, and was started on Pitocin.

Four hours later, I delivered her healthy baby boy vaginally.

Medical Economics - Obstetrics-Gynecology - October 2000,
p. 80.

Does this OB really think SHE delivered the baby from her very own vagina!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????? ?????? Certainly sounds like it....

On to the OP, my first was born in the hospital, and though I feel I was pretty lucky (got out of there w/out a c-section), I was railroaded into crap I did not want. It was an experience in hightened fear...fear and more fear. I was sourounded by fear from the Dr.'s to the nurses. It's allways about when are things going to go wrong... birth is so dangerous . Good for you if you are so strong as to stand up to every little thing they throw at you, but some of us I guess just aren't that strong. It's hard to fight when giving birth
watermamma is offline  
#27 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 08:04 PM
 
Greaseball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 8,764
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
If someone told me my baby was going to die if I didn't do whatever, I'd do what they wanted. It's not the responsibility of the patient to know when her doctor is lying. Doctors just should not lie.
Greaseball is offline  
#28 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 09:22 PM
 
earthmama007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,036
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That is the thing, we ARE strong but unfortunatly where you choose to give birth has a huge impact on your choices. What I mean is that once you go to a hospital for care you are already subjected to much more than a HB. I DO NOT think HB is the right choice for every woman. My point is that so many times we think we can work the system by writing a birth plan but that just doesn't always work.
earthmama007 is offline  
#29 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 10:21 PM
 
AnnMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandib50
absolutely a doula is critical for a hospital birth in my mind. me, i stayed home for the next 3!
mandi

I agree, but even they can't stop everything. I asked for no episiotomy with my 3rd child, I had a doula, she saw the doctor going to do it, didn't say anything to me or the doctor, and it was done (A huge one mind you.).....without my permission. I was so .
AnnMarie is offline  
#30 of 71 Old 02-06-2005, 11:17 PM
 
StarMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: California
Posts: 4,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had a doula as well, and while she was great about really connecting with me prior to getting an epidural (I COULD have done it without the epidural, pitocin and mag sulfate and all if I wasn't stuck in that :curse bed!), as well as practically yelling "All right! Skin to skin, coming right up!!" when Orion was born into the very bewildered nurse's hands, and lifted my gown and guided the nurse to give me my baby. But what was she going to do when the doctors LIED to me about having pre-eclampsia? I mean in a normal you-really-do-HAVE-pre-eclampsia situation that is totally one of those situations that you do NEED the hospital and the medications. She wasn't going to go to war over things we both thought of as neccisary to save my and Orion's life.

Lisa, mama to Orion (7) , Fiona Star (born sleeping @ 38wks 12/6/08) , our bitty (m/c 7/27/09) , and Charlotte Athena (11/5/10)
StarMama is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off