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#121 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 03:43 PM
 
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Yea, but MM, your previous posts didn’t say *just* that. I don’t think anyone is saying that attendants don’t alter the outcome of the birth experience. I, personally, think attendants are interventions.

All this has little to do with some of the other things you said in your posts.

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#122 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 03:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma
I don't understand why people are not understanding my main point here.. when you introduce someone into the *birth soup*.. a complex mix of hormones, chemicals and primal instincts you are going to alter something somehow! everyone brings a bias with them everyone has their own fears.. and when your near a labouring woman she is a sponge .. open to ALL energy..
As I have said before, but I'll say it more clearly, the reason *I* am not understanding your point is that you are not owning it. You are using *you* language and generalizing about your own experience to make it true for all women. Which negates my experience, which was that labour hurt a lot AND I had great birth attendants, and they did not cause my pain.

If you use *I* language to talk about your experience I might have found it interesting and something to consider, rather than finding your words insulting.
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#123 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 03:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama
As I have said before, but I'll say it more clearly, the reason *I* am not understanding your point is that you are not owning it. You are using *you* language and generalizing about your own experience to make it true for all women. Which negates my experience, which was that labour hurt a lot AND I had great birth attendants, and they did not cause my pain.

If you use *I* language to talk about your experience I might have found it interesting and something to consider, rather than finding your words insulting.
Oh is this one of those situations where emails and message board posts do not convey tone and intent properly?? maybe you should have asked me for clarification before calling me names and jumping down my throat.
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#124 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 03:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama
Yea, but MM, your previous posts didn’t say *just* that. I don’t think anyone is saying that attendants don’t alter the outcome of the birth experience. I, personally, think attendants are interventions.

All this has little to do with some of the other things you said in your posts.
You see there is just too much to this I think to properly discuss in a thread like this... without being misunderstood.. your right I am a very convicted UC'er.. but I never said that ALL womyn must birth this way or that all womyn will have pain with an attendant.. its my position that attendants cause pain.. as that has been my experience and alot of my friends experiences.. of course there are always exceptions to this... but I think for someone to shun the idea because they had a painful birth with attendants they *love* that they would not have a painful birth doing it another way .. is well ... weird!! :LOL because how on earth can you know until you do it? I sure as heck didnt! I used to be the epidural queen once upon a nightmare
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#125 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 03:54 PM
 
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I feel that there is a big difference between

"Attendants cause birth pain"

and

"In my experience, my attendants caused my birth pain."

I think that's the core of what's been driving me crazy about this part of this thead.

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#126 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 03:55 PM
 
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But we have someone here right on this thread that had a painful UC and many people who had positive attended births.


Here’s the thing, I’ve read about pain-free births and have seen a video of a pain-free birth.

From what I’ve seen this seems to be very *rare*…and definitely off topic.

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#127 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 03:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma
Oh is this one of those situations where emails and message board posts do not convey tone and intent properly?? maybe you should have asked me for calrification before calling me names and jumping down my throat.
Um, no its not, IMO. You said: "Pain is largely societal conditioning and I stand firm in my opinion that attendants cause pain... period!"

This is a gross generalization and I find it offensive because I feel that you are telling me my pain wouldn't have existed had I given birth unattended. If for YOU attendants caused pain, I can be interested in that experience. But I find you judging what caused MY pain without even knowing me to be insulting.

Then when I said to you that I felt a lot of pain and didn't feel it was caused by my attendants, you basically told me I didn't know any better because I had nothing "concrete" to compare my birthing experience to.

This is inappropriate and negates my authority on my own birth.

If you tell me I don't know what's true for me, I am going to be angry. If you own your experience, I am happy and interested to hear about it, and feel that it might have something to teach me. Does this make sense to you?
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#128 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 03:59 PM
 
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http://www.mothering.com/discussions...07#post2894607

Do attendants cause more pain during labor and birth? What allows for a pain-free birth?


This is a spin off. Pain free birth has been something I’ve been curious about and I thought we could have a good discussion here about it.




...if you want to talk more about it...

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#129 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:04 PM
 
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[QUOTE=thismama]Um, no its not, IMO. You said: "Pain is largely societal conditioning and I stand firm in my opinion that attendants cause pain... period!"

Right and I still feel this way largely I think we are rasied to view birth as this horror.. primed from young age in fact.

"This is a gross generalization and I find it offensive because I feel that you are telling me my pain wouldn't have existed had I given birth unattended. If for YOU attendants caused pain, I can be interested in that experience. But I find you judging what caused MY pain without even knowing me to be insulting."

Its still my opinion and I am still allowed to it last time I checked I was still allowed freedom of speech, I am not asking you to agree with me.. I am just asking you to stop calling me names and picking my posts apart because for whatever reason they are "offending" you.. I am sorry if it offends you but I have reached a point where I have some pretty defined ideas on this stuff.


"Then when I said to you that I felt a lot of pain and didn't feel it was caused by my attendants, you basically told me I didn't know any better because I had nothing "concrete" to compare my birthing experience to.

This is inappropriate and negates my authority on my own birth. "

Again I am really sorry but I do not mean you any respect but how can you be soo finite when you DONT have anything to compare with? man I thought I was hardcore.

"If you tell me I don't know what's true for me, I am going to be angry. If you own your experience, I am happy and interested to hear about it, and feel that it might have something to teach me. Does this make sense to you"

Of course I own my experience I am HUGE on that.. your obviously not real familiar with me then.. I understand what your saying.. but you took my words and personal opinions and thoughts and twisted them to make it appear like I was just on a *offend "thismama" warpath* .. and well that ain't true at all.

perhaps we just need to agree to disagree I have no problem with that.
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#130 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma
... but I think for someone to shun the idea because they had a painful birth with attendants they *love* that they would not have a painful birth doing it another way .. is well ... weird!! :LOL because how on earth can you know until you do it? I sure as heck didnt! I used to be the epidural queen once upon a nightmare

I'm not doing that.


I have no predictions for my future pregnancies and births. I made the mistake of thinking the planned HB of my first (and only) child would be less painful than what was described to me. I had read and seen pain-free births and I expected that birthing at home would help with the pain.

And it did!! (I think)

But, you’re right, I do think a UC birth would be painful for me. I’ll probably never know.

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#131 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:06 PM
 
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yay! what a lively discussion. i've had one homebirth with a midwife, assistant, and dh present. it hurt like hell, but i cant wait to do it again! i am planning to have a mw and student come to my next labor, but they have to sit at the other side of the room and not say or do anything anything while i am giving birth! the main reason i want them there is for cleanup and, because i am currently a midwifery student, i know how important it is for students to see UC type births. it gives you a new perspective on how fearful and untrusting (is that a word?) of birth even we midwives can be.


im just chiming in to remind everyone to be nice to each other! its easy to forget that we are all real people behind the computer screen.

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#132 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama
I'm not doing that.


I have no predictions for my future pregnancies and births. I made the mistake of thinking the planned HB of my first (and only) child would be less painful than what was described to me. I had read and seen pain-free births and I expected that birthing at home would help with the pain.

And it did!! (I think)

But, you’re right, I do think a UC birth would be painful for me. I’ll probably never know.
I know, I was not actually referencing you in my post.. I was speaking about "thismama" who clearly stated that her birth with attendants was painful and her births are just painful because.. and attendants or lack of them would not alter that
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#133 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:09 PM
 
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MM I'm curious do you think if you are unattended but plan to have an attendant at some point during the process that then you will have pain the whole time? I don't have many friends who actually UCed but I do have many friends who labored at home until as late as possible and baiscally showed up to the hospital pushing and they all had pain. As I shared I labored at home unattended for right around 10 hours of my 13.5 hour labor. But I still had pain. Is this because I was going to have an attendant?
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#134 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:09 PM
 
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Again I am really sorry but I do not mean you any respect but how can you be soo finite when you DONT have anything to compare with? man I thought I was hardcore.

One thing that has been said before is that all births are different. My mom had 5 births and #3 was the most difficult.

Maybe part of what people are getting upset over is that you’re saying that you know absolutely which factors led to your pain free birth.

But, honestly, how can you know? Do you think you could have had a pain-free UC with your first child?

I don’t know, it seems like you’re assuming some stuff here too, yk?

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#135 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:10 PM
 
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We cannot make sweeping generalizations about birth. It's different every time, for every woman, regardless of caregivers, locations, whatever.
It will never be the same experience twice. How fun is that?

I had relatively easy births with my first 4, my third, and my biggest, was painless. even my first birth was only 5 hours, with only a few moments of, "Oh, my g-d, I can't do this!".
I went into my fifth birth confident, and a bit arrogant, I know how to birth easily, painlessly, and without trauma. Piece of cake, right?

Wrong.

My fifth birth was a hellish nightmare, so bad I tried to knock myself out by banging my head on the wall. I passed out from the pain several times. I prayed to die so I would'd have to do it anymore. My midwife and mother were the only thing that kept me sane (and from bashing my own head in).

Having my 6th, I woke up in the middle of the night terrified of having to give birth again. I dreaded it. Feared it more than anything imaginable.

She fell out of me. Never even felt a contraction or urge to push. Go figure.

It's unpredictable, it's marvelous, it's amazing and the most powerful thing most of us will ever do. My fifth birth taught me humility, (not right away, of course, it took a while to get the message!) and made me realize that not every birth is going to be the same, and just as in life itself, when you think you got it all figured out, Surprise! You don't!
It has been a great blessing to me, because as a midwife, if I had only had easy painless births, how would I know what a really difficult birth is like for a woman under my care? I know better than to think I know better, or to think all the answers lie in a single philosophy. Truth is, there are no answers that will fit every woman's birth. All we can do is respect the process and her own perception of her own experience.
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#136 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma
Its still my opinion and I am still allowed to it last time I checked I was still allowed freedom of speech, I am not asking you to agree with me.. I am just asking you to stop calling me names and picking my posts apart because for whatever reason they are "offending" you.. I am sorry if it offends you but I have reached a point where I have some pretty defined ideas on this stuff.

Again I am really sorry but I do not mean you any respect but how can you be soo finite when you DONT have anything to compare with? man I thought I was hardcore.

Of course I own my experience I am HUGE on that.. your obviously not real familiar with me then.. I understand what your saying.. but you took my words and personal opinions and thoughts and twisted them to make it appear like I was just on a *offend "thismama" warpath* .. and well that ain't true at all.

perhaps we just need to agree to disagree I have no problem with that.
Yup you can say whatever you want. I am asking you to own your experience and refrain from judging mine as invalid. Obviously you cannot do that, but the consequence is that I will "pick apart" your posts and tell you your words are arrogant and insulting.

I do have something to compare my attended birth with - the first part of labour where I was by myself and it began to HURT LIKE HELL! Which prompted me to call my birth attendants. Call me crazy.

You may be "HUGE" on owning your experience, but if you look at the general comments you have made about "all" births, and at the times you have told me my own birth experience doesn't count because it doesn't match your experience, you are NOT owning your own experience in this thread. And if you would at least own THAT, we might get somewhere.
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#137 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sevenkids
I know better than to think I know better, or to think all the answers lie in a single philosophy. Truth is, there are no answers that will fit every woman's birth. All we can do is respect the process and her own perception of her own experience.



Can I come birth with you? :LOL

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#138 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:15 PM
 
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Can I come birth with you? :LOL
Me too!
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Yup you can say whatever you want. I am asking you to own your experience and refrain from judging mine as invalid. Obviously you cannot do that, but the consequence is that I will "pick apart" your posts and tell you your words are arrogant and insulting.

I do have something to compare my attended birth with - the first part of labour where I was by myself and it began to HURT LIKE HELL! Which prompted me to call my birth attendants. Call me crazy.

You may be "HUGE" on owning your experience, but if you look at the general comments you have made about "all" births, and at the times you have told me my own birth experience doesn't count because it doesn't match your experience, you are NOT owning your own experience in this thread. And if you would at least own THAT, we might get somewhere.
Agree to disagree.. agree to disagree.. its a great mantra!
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Can I come birth with you? :LOL
It would be my honour.
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#141 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma
Agree to disagree.. agree to disagree.. its a great mantra!
Own your own experience... don't negate what other women say about their births... there's a mantra for you.
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#142 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:20 PM
 
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Can I come birth with you? :LOL
:LOL
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#143 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wasabi
MM I'm curious do you think if you are unattended but plan to have an attendant at some point during the process that then you will have pain the whole time? I don't have many friends who actually UCed but I do have many friends who labored at home until as late as possible and baiscally showed up to the hospital pushing and they all had pain. As I shared I labored at home unattended for right around 10 hours of my 13.5 hour labor. But I still had pain. Is this because I was going to have an attendant?
well I think that there is no such thing as being unattended with an attendant its sort of a giant contradiction in my books.. I think UC is more of a mindset from the start kwim? there is a different mentality that goes along with it your not just handing the power off to someone else and expecting them to give you the "good outcome" I think fear of birth is where alot of pain comes from and then I think that attendants affect you on levels you may or may not be aware of .. its interesting! really there are soo many levels to this! I think everyone is bent about my pain comments but nowhere was it discussed that anyone should define pain.. in fact I was not the one who even used the word painless in generalization I used painless about my own experience as yes it 98% was! the only uncomfortable part was when he her head and body popped out. I am not the one who invented the whole fight or flight response its a well documented fact.. in times of adrenaline surges the body shunts blood to the vital organs and if your panicking and upset in labour well .. I think thats going to cause more pain than not.

Anyhow I am getting tired of my comments getting all twisted around here :LOL
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#144 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:24 PM
 
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Own your own experience... don't negate what other women say about their births... there's a mantra for you.
Agree to disagree agree to disagree... great mantra! fabulous!
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#145 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma
Agree to disagree agree to disagree... great mantra! fabulous!
Are you seriously repeating your last post? Sort of like yes, no, yes, no?

The discussion between us has degenerated. I've said my piece... several times. You are not going to get it.

Thanks everyone else for a great discussion. I'm outta here for now. May come back to the larger discussion later, as I think it's a good one.
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Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama
One thing that has been said before is that all births are different. My mom had 5 births and #3 was the most difficult.

Maybe part of what people are getting upset over is that you’re saying that you know absolutely which factors led to your pain free birth.

But, honestly, how can you know? Do you think you could have had a pain-free UC with your first child?

I don’t know, it seems like you’re assuming some stuff here too, yk?
Sure all births are different I can concur with that one! oh I do know what absolutely led to my painfree birth.. and I have already explained why I most definately know I would not have been subjected to the horrors I was in my first birth had I have known what I know now.. and not bought into the medical model of birth I was young I was stupid and I trusted *them* I know almost assuredly that my first birth could have been SOOO very different if I had of been left alone to do my own thing and not subjected to my attendants ideas about what my body should be doing.
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#147 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 04:29 PM
 
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Are you seriously repeating your last post? Sort of like yes, no, yes, no?

The discussion between us has degenerated. I've said my piece... several times. You are not going to get it.

Thanks everyone else for a great discussion. I'm outta here for now. May come back to the larger discussion later, as I think it's a good one.

I am just singing my peaceful song here thismama.. Agree to disagree !

Peace
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#148 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 05:00 PM
 
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*I* personally find it rude that this thread has been hijacked to debate UC. (I'm using my *I* language, here. )

Can we please keep it on topic. If no one is interested in the OP anymore, maybe someone should start a new thread about UC, attendants causing pain, whatever. Aren't there any mods in this forum?

To the OP: I'm sorry your homebirth was a horrible experience for you. I'm happy for you that you were able to find a way to birth your second child that brought you joy.
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#149 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 05:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma
oh I do know what absolutely led to my painfree birth.. and I have already explained why

Just being UC? Could it not also have had to do with having had 6 previous births? Could it not have been an ‘easy’ birth to begin with? Maybe you were older and wiser?


I’m not trying to argue with you. I just can’t entirely relate to you.


For me, my birth was about 50 different things. Even politics! (see birth date) There were just so, so many factors. My relationship with my partner, my pregnancy, my home, my neighbors, my support, my pervious experience with birth, my mother…Not to mention, labor length, time, position, my health…the fact that I vomited the entire time :LOL


But, I really shouldn’t say that, because this was my reality, you can’t simply know that being unassisted was the factor of a pain-free birth. I can say that I can’t relate to this kind of confidence in knowing.

I’m just having trouble relating, that’s all.

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#150 of 225 Old 04-01-2005, 05:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gottaknit
*I* personally find it rude that this thread has been hijacked to debate UC. (I'm using my *I* language, here. )
Yes, I agree. I'm sorry, OP.

I had completely forgotten. I’m sitting up with a vomiting child and needed to chat. This was not the place for it.

I’m sorry.


Back on topic…

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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