Loved my intrathecal! No natural childbirth for me EVER again! - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-05-2005, 03:33 PM
 
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On the subject of birth rape;

I attended as a doula a woman having her second baby. With the first, she got a huge episiotomy that took months to heal properly. She was pretty flexible with her hospital birth, but she was firm about one thing only: NO episiotomy.
her OB and her nurse were well aware of this, as she had written a birth plan and discussed at length with the OB her fears of having another epi.
Anyway, she's pushing, and stretching nicely. Between every push, she gasped to her doctor, "Remember, don't cut me. Please, whatever you do, don't cut me!"
Her doc kept saying, "Stop worrying about that! Just push!"

Then I saw him pick up the scissors.

I looked him in the eye, and mouthed, "Don't you dare cut her!"
He gave me a smirk, yes, a smirk, and proceeded to cut her right into her anus.
She screamed the most heart wrenching scream I have ever heard.
What ensued after got me banned from that hospital as a doula, but whatever.

The point is, here she is, lying on her back, legs wide open, at her most vulnerable moment. Here is a male in a position of authority, standing between her open legs, with cutting tools at his disposal. Despite her pleas, he abused her trust in him, dis-respected her wishes, violated her most womanly parts, and committed an act of violence, for no other reason than to prove to all and sundry that he was the one in control, that he held the power of mutilating her vagina or keeping it intact in his hands, and there wasn't jack she could do about it.
Not only would she have to bear the physical pain of that episiotomy (more like a vaginal cesarean, IMO) for months, but she will have to bear the psychological and emotional trauma of having her doctor, whom she trusted with her well-being, betray her and violently assualt her.
She could not hold still for the repair, and despite her objections, got demerol injected into her IV. (She said that she had severe reactions to demerol, it made her violently ill and she could still feel everything, so her OB told her either she took the demerol or he was going to leave her split wide open.) She reacted to the demerol like she said, vomiting all over herself and screaming from the pain she was helpless to escape.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sevenkids
On the subject of birth rape;

I attended as a doula a woman having her second baby. With the first, she got a huge episiotomy that took months to heal properly. She was pretty flexible with her hospital birth, but she was firm about one thing only: NO episiotomy.
her OB and her nurse were well aware of this, as she had written a birth plan and discussed at length with the OB her fears of having another epi.
Anyway, she's pushing, and stretching nicely. Between every push, she gasped to her doctor, "Remember, don't cut me. Please, whatever you do, don't cut me!"
Her doc kept saying, "Stop worrying about that! Just push!"

Then I saw him pick up the scissors.

I looked him in the eye, and mouthed, "Don't you dare cut her!"
He gave me a smirk, yes, a smirk, and proceeded to cut her right into her anus.
She screamed the most heart wrenching scream I have ever heard.
What ensued after got me banned from that hospital as a doula, but whatever.

The point is, here she is, lying on her back, legs wide open, at her most vulnerable moment. Here is a male in a position of authority, standing between her open legs, with cutting tools at his disposal. Despite her pleas, he abused her trust in him, dis-respected her wishes, violated her most womanly parts, and committed an act of violence, for no other reason than to prove to all and sundry that he was the one in control, that he held the power of mutilating her vagina or keeping it intact in his hands, and there wasn't jack she could do about it.
Not only would she have to bear the physical pain of that episiotomy (more like a vaginal cesarean, IMO) for months, but she will have to bear the psychological and emotional trauma of having her doctor, whom she trusted with her well-being, betray her and violently assualt her.
She could not hold still for the repair, and despite her objections, got demerol injected into her IV. (She said that she had severe reactions to demerol, it made her violently ill and she could still feel everything, so her OB told her either she took the demerol or he was going to leave her split wide open.) She reacted to the demerol like she said, vomiting all over herself and screaming from the pain she was helpless to escape.
Right and thats about it, I dont think its wise to dispute the modality of a rape.. as we can see scissors or penis or whatever! rape is rape.. a violation of one against their will that leaves them helpless to fight their attacker.


That poor woman.. did she have any recourse sevenkids? could she sue him?
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by emmabella
Wow, some of you gals are nasty. .
Hmm..I didn't notice any "nasty" responces...most of us were clarifying our view.
I do thank you for your clarification, but I still don't think that when a women describes her birth experience as being like a rape, that she is using the term "lightly". Rape IS a strong word, and often the only word that even comes CLOSE to describing how violated a woman felt after a traumatic birth experience. I don't think it demeans the word at all. JMO
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:47 PM
 
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What a horrible, horrible thing to have happened 7.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma

That poor woman.. did she have any recourse sevenkids? could she sue him?
I encouraged her to write a letter of complaint to the cheif of obstetrics, and cc it to FOGS (Florida Ob/Gyn Society) ACOG, AHCA (association for health care administration) and several other groups, but it didn't get too far. He of course, stated she was non-compliant and her baby was in danger and that her doula (me) was interfering and influencing her against medically appropriate treatment.
This particular hospital has one of the highest maternal/infant morbidity rates in south Florida.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wasabi
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're writing here ...
I’m very concerned that you may have misunderstood me but I think you would if you read it in the context of why I posted that story I think you would understand.

If you’re still not sure why I posted what I did or what I meant or what I think my friends feelings are about, please, please ask because you are definitely misunderstanding me.

Please let me know about this because I really hate to be misunderstood about things of a personal nature. Please let me know.

Please feel free to question me and why I posted or even ask me to edit but please don’t question my friend’s feelings. Sorry, maybe it was not appropriate to mention them.

Urgh…what a bad feeling.

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Old 04-05-2005, 04:02 PM
 
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ICM, It is your friend's feelings and you chimed in. I don't think it was anything inappropriate at all. You were just speaking from another POV you have seen.
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Old 04-05-2005, 04:08 PM
 
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However, I do think it comes down to language (perhaps its limitations) and allowing people to label their experiences according to how they feel.

But I wanted to tell you that I, I…well, I don’t think I understand your feelings…but I just wanted to tell you my experience with my friend.
I shared that story not to agree with the feelings but to recognize that maybe sensitivity to the word rape is common with survivors. That's all.

I thought it would be helpful. I was just trying to help.


I hadn’t realized that mention the story would bring my friend’s feelings into question. That was a mistake.




BTW, I made a mistake while trying to quote myself and hit the edit button on the post in question.

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Old 04-05-2005, 04:31 PM
 
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OMG 7, that story is absolutely horrific.
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Old 04-05-2005, 04:42 PM
 
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I got what you were trying to say. I'm just not all there right now.
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Old 04-05-2005, 04:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenkids
On the subject of birth rape;

I attended as a doula a woman having her second baby. With the first, she got a huge episiotomy that took months to heal properly. She was pretty flexible with her hospital birth, but she was firm about one thing only: NO episiotomy.
her OB and her nurse were well aware of this, as she had written a birth plan and discussed at length with the OB her fears of having another epi.
Anyway, she's pushing, and stretching nicely. Between every push, she gasped to her doctor, "Remember, don't cut me. Please, whatever you do, don't cut me!"
Her doc kept saying, "Stop worrying about that! Just push!"

Then I saw him pick up the scissors.

I looked him in the eye, and mouthed, "Don't you dare cut her!"
He gave me a smirk, yes, a smirk, and proceeded to cut her right into her anus.
She screamed the most heart wrenching scream I have ever heard.
What ensued after got me banned from that hospital as a doula, but whatever.

The point is, here she is, lying on her back, legs wide open, at her most vulnerable moment. Here is a male in a position of authority, standing between her open legs, with cutting tools at his disposal. Despite her pleas, he abused her trust in him, dis-respected her wishes, violated her most womanly parts, and committed an act of violence, for no other reason than to prove to all and sundry that he was the one in control, that he held the power of mutilating her vagina or keeping it intact in his hands, and there wasn't jack she could do about it.
Not only would she have to bear the physical pain of that episiotomy (more like a vaginal cesarean, IMO) for months, but she will have to bear the psychological and emotional trauma of having her doctor, whom she trusted with her well-being, betray her and violently assualt her.
She could not hold still for the repair, and despite her objections, got demerol injected into her IV. (She said that she had severe reactions to demerol, it made her violently ill and she could still feel everything, so her OB told her either she took the demerol or he was going to leave her split wide open.) She reacted to the demerol like she said, vomiting all over herself and screaming from the pain she was helpless to escape.



HOLY $H!T I'm sick! Please tell me she sued the hell out of that SOB????!!!!
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Old 04-05-2005, 05:18 PM
 
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Then I saw him pick up the scissors.
I'm beginning to wonder how common this is. I know it happened to one freind of mine- she had made it clear to her doctor that she didn't want a episiotomy and afterwards, her doc told her she tore, but another freind was in the room at the time and watched him cut her. My freind giving birth was never told what really happened, but it makes me sick to wonder how many women are being violated and they don't even know.
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Old 04-05-2005, 05:21 PM
 
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I'm gasping at the story told by sevenkids. Unbelievable.

ICM I'm sure feeling sensitive about the use of the word is common among most/all rape survivors. I was just having trouble with the part about feeling other rape victims weren't allowed to have ownership of that word unless they were raped a certain way which I would imagine would be incredibly hurtful to those victims. But I'm relieved that I misunderstood what you were posting.
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Old 04-05-2005, 06:12 PM
 
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That birth rape story made me so angry. I don't know what you did to get yourself banned, sevenkids, but I hope it comes close to what I would like to say/do to that doctor.
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Old 04-05-2005, 06:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd
That birth rape story made me so angry. I don't know what you did to get yourself banned, sevenkids, but I hope it comes close to what I would like to say/do to that doctor.
basically a screaming match with the doctor that nearly turned to blows until a nurse called security and had me removed :

I thought about waiting in the parking lot for him (harkening back to my thug days) but my dh talked me out of it after I called him fuming and crying.
I'm still really hurt by that birth, even though it was years ago.
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Old 04-05-2005, 10:54 PM
 
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I think that stories as flat out horrifying as sevenkids are rare, but I think unfortunately that stuff similar to this happens all the time.
I have a friend TTC #2 who made a special appt with her doc the first time to discuss the fact that she did not want an episiotomy under any circumstances. He told her he would "try" and would not make any kind of commitment. During delivery, he cut a midline episiotomy telling her her "vagina was just too small." She pushed 26 minutes for a 6 lb 9 oz baby. She actually healed pretty well, and did not have a lot of discomfort. However, she now believes that she just has "too small of a vagina" and her episiotomy was truly needed, when really that doc just cuts everybody and never had any intention of honoring her wishes. (I practice at the same hospital)
I think this type of situation happens all the time - and women are left to feel that their bodies are inadequate and faulty, and thank goodness the doc was there to save them.
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Old 04-05-2005, 10:55 PM
 
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sevenkids . . .

OMG. That is just beyond horrible.

ETA: To the OP . . .This is what I think. I think I can't judge you or your actions, period. I think it would be ridiculous of me to assume that the way you and I experience pain is the same, so how can I put myself in your place?

I don't even have a problem with you mentioning how happy you were with your decisions for the 2nd birth on this forum . . .I can see how people would be, because this type of thing is all too common on mainstream boards (extolling the benefits of such a birth), and it seems frustrating to deal with it here. But, I look at your post and realize that I am LUCKY that I didn't have that kind of labor experience (like your 1st), and I credit my body for that (not the horrible residents at the hospital).

 2/02, 4/05, 2/07, 11/09, and EDD 12/25/11 wave.gif

 

 

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Old 04-05-2005, 11:13 PM
 
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I hope that doctor is not still practicing medicine. Routine episiotomies are one thing (and bad enough), but that was downright sadistic.

OK, so... ten pages into this thread, I have to ask - what exactly *is* an intrathecal???? I assume it's like an epidural but I have never heard this term before. Can someone enlighten me?
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Old 04-05-2005, 11:21 PM
 
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it just means "in the spine" and is used in this context to mean what is usually called an epidural (epidural means "next to the dura").

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Old 04-05-2005, 11:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doctorjen
He told her he would "try" and would not make any kind of commitment. During delivery, he cut a midline episiotomy telling her her "vagina was just too small." She pushed 26 minutes for a 6 lb 9 oz baby. She actually healed pretty well, and did not have a lot of discomfort.
Same thing happened with my #2. I did leave it up to him since I put it that I'd preferred not to have an epis (I was only 18 and still not really realizing these were my choices). When the time came as he was cutting me he just said that I needed one and I said ok. Didn't think a thing of it. At that point I didn't even realize choosing to tear was really an option. I was lucky and did not have trouble healing and I don't think it was a big cut but still. I think unfortunately this does happen to a lot of women.
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Old 04-05-2005, 11:39 PM
 
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It is more common then you think to have disgusting men and women who like to cut. It is one of the worst not talked about abuses out there. I am trying to get it into the REAL Vagina Monologues. The more women who know, the better!

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Old 04-05-2005, 11:47 PM
 
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This reminds me of some of the conversation in the Feminist Mamas Rollcall in FYT.

You know, I think those doctors are sometimes more inclined to do these actions to women who take charge of what they want in labor. What an awful, awful story sevenkids. I'm livid.
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Old 04-06-2005, 12:12 AM
 
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"You know, I think those doctors are sometimes more inclined to do these actions to women who take charge of what they want in labor."

Absolutely. I happen to know the nurse in attendance at the friend's delivery, and she was quite sure the doc cut her because she'd asked him not to. It wouldn't do to have women thinking they have some kind of choice you know.

And intrathecal is not quite the same as an epidural. Epidural means the space around the spinal cord, while intrathecal is in the spinal space. Intrathecals are not as commonly used, but are becoming more popular at teaching/larger hospitals.
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Old 04-06-2005, 12:20 AM
 
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Thanks, Apricot and doctorjen.
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Old 04-06-2005, 12:45 AM
 
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Sevenkids, the story alone is going to give me nightmares. I'm so sorry you had to witness it and even more sorry that any woman had to experience it. I guess it all plays in to my fears (probably unreasonable) of being subject to the power of others in a hospital birth which is what led me to the homebirth of my first. And it hurt. But pain was the least of my worries, and irrespective of the pain it's the same choice I'll make for the next one - Circling back to the OP. For me, I've more fear of psycological trauma than purely physical birth pain perhaps. However, I think we all have a similar need to find a birth that is empowering and not traumatic for us, whatever that is, any debate over pain meds aside.
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Old 04-06-2005, 03:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorjen
"You know, I think those doctors are sometimes more inclined to do these actions to women who take charge of what they want in labor."

Absolutely. I happen to know the nurse in attendance at the friend's delivery, and she was quite sure the doc cut her because she'd asked him not to. It wouldn't do to have women thinking they have some kind of choice you know.

And intrathecal is not quite the same as an epidural. Epidural means the space around the spinal cord, while intrathecal is in the spinal space. Intrathecals are not as commonly used, but are becoming more popular at teaching/larger hospitals.
THis is just downright scary.. I have avoided being cut by informing my past attendants quite literally "you cut me I sue you" and to be honest they listened.. they had too, its an offense here to conduct any medical procedure without consent..a serious one. I just cannot begin to fathom this.. I feel such pain for womyn who are being violated like this.. it just makes you want to turn the scissors on the offending "attendee" :
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Old 04-06-2005, 04:37 AM
 
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7kids, I am just, wow, I am really about to cry. Damn
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Old 04-06-2005, 04:59 AM
 
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I'm coming in w-a-y late on this, but re: fast labors. With my first - 4 hours, manageble (I was 4 cms a week before I ever went into labor, so I'm sure that helped)
#2 - 5 hours, nuchal hand, smaller baby and I can truly say I only felt 'discomfort'
#3, #4 and #5 - just under 2 hours, 1 1/2 hour and 50 minutes and they were all overwhelming. Hurt like a @#($*&, the faster they were, the more so.
#6 - brow presentation, 3 hours (most of them at 8 cms), but managable with ctx. only ever 5 minutes or so.

Oh, I should mention - all with midwives, 3 at a hospital birth center, 3 at home.

I think there are so many variables. But I am astounded that there are people that still think that if you 'relax properly' or 'aren't afraid' or have the right attendant that it won't hurt!
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Old 04-06-2005, 04:31 PM
 
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If you have personally experienced rape, I grieve with you and feel so sorry your first birth renewed that pain for you. If you have not been raped, I would ask that you not use it as a reference point out of respect for those who are still dealing with the severe emotional trauma is represents.
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Originally Posted by emmabella
Wow, some of you gals are nasty. I purposefully did not mention birth rape in my response to mamasaurus because it did not seem to be what she was referring to in her post. My assumption was that since she mentioned rape and being "drawn and quartered" (which obviously has NOT happened to her) in the same breath, that she was using a random word to describe her experience. I volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center and deal extensively with women who have experienced both what you would call a "traditional" rape and birth rape, where someone has willfully and maliciously violated them. Both are valid, both are horrific. However, they are different. My only purpose of posting was to encourage people who have experienced neither circumstance to not use that reference point casually. My heart goes out to my fellow sisters have been violated in this way.
I imagine that, to most women, the word "rape" conjures up the most terrible sense of violation possible. To say that a woman who has not been raped according to a certain definition has no right to use the word is highly disrespectful. Feelings are so subjective and there are many ways to violate another person.

I had a c/s w/ my DD. Afterward, I felt terribly violated by the surgery. I couldn't help thinking over and over about how the doctors had their hands inside my body, how they had handled my internal organs and discussed them like so many bits of meat. I did feel raped. Is it okay for me to use that word b/c I was sexually abused as a child? If I had not been, would I have no claim to it?

Birth is profoundly sexual, whether we always aknowledge it or not. I have had surgery before and not felt that sense of terror and violation. Yet, w/ my c/s (scheduled and ultimately chosen by me to boot) I experienced horrible and completely unexpected trauma. I had many moments of irrational terror afterward. I have mostly healed, but am left w/ a profound distrust for doctors and surgery in general.

And whether the trauma was caused by malintent on the part of the doctor is not really a good measure either. I've no doubt that my doctors had no intent of causing me harm. They had no idea how the c/s would impact me. They believed it was the best possible course of action...and I agreed until I actually had the c/s. Does that mean I have no claim to feel violated?

I think I can understand some of the sensitivity about the use of the word "rape." If one was recovering from rape, the idea of another using the word casually would beyond horrible. I don't think it was used casually in this context. If the discussion had been about paying too much for internet access and a person used the word "rape" that would be casual. The use of the word in the context of a traumatic birth could never be called casual, IMO.
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Old 04-06-2005, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Your description makes me so sad... I'm sitting here trying to find a way to respond without crying. As someone who has been raped (on two separate occasions) and is anticipating the birth of my first child, this really offends me. I'm just shocked that you would so casually refer to an act that's sole purpose is to degrade & violate women in the most intimate manner possible. If you have personally experienced rape, I grieve with you and feel so sorry your first birth renewed that pain for you. If you have not been raped, I would ask that you not use it as a reference point out of respect for those who are still dealing with the severe emotional trauma is represents.
Hi Emily,

I am so sorry that you were raped and that I offended you. I really am. I would not intentionally try to offend someone who had been raped. Thanks for telling me how you feel. I guess I just don't know another good word or words to use right now to describe how I felt during my first birth. I've never been raped, but I can only imagine.

I wish there were other words I could use to describe how I felt. If I could try, I would say that I felt horrific pain beyond anything I could have imagined, I felt violated in my body and outside my body, I felt like someone was taking me over and using me against my will, I felt like I had no support or help from those people who were witnessing my pain, I felt lost, alone, in the dark (my eyes were closed the whole time), I felt tortured and abused.

No matter what words I use to describe the pain, it always seems that I have to come back to some sort of analogy - for example, I was going to say that I felt like I was being possessed by a demon, but of course, I wasn't. It's just a pathetic attempt at trying to describe the pain. But again, I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sorry.

edited to add: Believe me, I was not using the term "rape" casually... I thought carefully about using that word. It was the strongest word I could think of to describe my pain. Sometimes the only way you can get someone to understand you is to use a single, strong word to make a point.

I guess I've tried explaining my pain in more complete sentences to certain people (birth trauma counselors, my midwives and doula at my first birth, other doulas I interviewed for the second birth.) and they just don't get it - how bad the pain was, I mean. I really had to resort to strong language and even then, they still didn't seem to get it.

I tried and tried to explain to my second doula how bad the first birth was, and it wasn't until she was in the delivery room with me, witnessing me climbing the walls (another descriptive phrase, I wasn't actually climbing the walls...), that she understood the level of my pain.
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