On Epidurals & FEelings Twords Women Who Get Them - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 106 Old 08-23-2005, 11:21 PM
 
lilsishomemade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: With Dorothy
Posts: 1,566
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
With comments such as going painfree is going through a real childbirth (bascially saying women who choose epidurals are not allowed to say they gave birth ) and so on is sort of disgusting to me.
Actually, the ladies were talking about being strapped down on an operating table and not participating at all in the birth of their children. And, they were talking about their own feelings about their own births, not that anyone who gets a c/s isn't allowed to say they gave birth. Women who give birth vag are an important part of childbirth, and they are very much active in the process. I've never given birth without an epi, but I very much know that I've been through childbirth!! Those ladies weren't giving a judgement, just saying how they felt about their own experiences, let's not attack them for that.
lilsishomemade is offline  
#62 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 12:06 AM
 
lorijds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,950
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think most posters here have made clear that it isn't really an issue, if a woman gets an epidural. It is the fact that the established medical practice is to routinely offer them, and to do so without offering a woman full understanding of the consequences.

As a nurse, yes I have seen women have very severe complications from an epidural. I personally have not seen anyone die from one, but our local hospital has. i worked for years with a nurse who got an infection at her epidural site, and spent the first four weeks of her baby's life in the ICU of a large research hospital 50 miles away.

From the insider's point of view, I feel like epidurals are routinely offered and even pushed because it is easier to manage the woman's labor. Staffing at hospitals is very tight. A woman who lays in bed and watches tv is a heck of alot easier to take care of than a woman who needs you in there for every contraction, talking her through it, rubbing her back, supporting her. Who would employ all the anesthesiologists if we didn't have a 90% epidural rate at our local hospital? It is very much about management and money, NOT about compassionate pain relief for women.

I am no friend of epidurals. I think they are a gateway into the cascade of interventions that hurts more than it helps. I also think they are an amazing thing in some instances. There are some births where I think the only thing that prevented a c-section was the epidural. Letting mom sleep and rest while getting IV fluids was what was needed. Some women who are sexual abuse survivors find birth an empowering experience. For some of them, they find it a horrible experience; for those women, an epidural allows them to be more present for the birth, in a better headspace than they would be without it.

I am just sad that so many women want an epidural, or feel pushed into it, because of their own feelings of fear. Which is, of course, merely a reflection of societal feelings towards pain and women's bodies. I am sad that women do not give themselves the chance, or are not given the chance to birth how they were made to birth. I am happy that women have the opportunity for pain relief; I just wish it wasn't treated like the "best" option by the medical community, and that we as a medical community were more in tune to the idea that a good outcome is not just a live baby and live mama. A good outcome is a mother who is not only healthy, holding her healthy baby in her arms, but who also feels she was a part of a wonderful process. That she birthed on her terms, and she was supported. That she and her baby were honored, and her birth was treated as the sacred event it is. No matter the means, be they a UC or an elective C-section, or something in the middle; if all mamas felt that way after their births, I think our world would be a much better place.
lorijds is offline  
#63 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 12:16 AM
 
Artisan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
My first and so far only childbirth was a horrible exp. I was also given pitocin when I was at 8cm... but I never did have an epidural.


But with that said, I wonder if that was actually foolish on my part. I lay there in complete agony and for what? To carry some sort of badge of honor? It could also be argued that having a difficult childbirth could be hard on the fetus as the mother's BP is elevated and the mother of course undergoes other stresses due to the pain of childbirth.

With comments such as going painfree is going through a real childbirth (bascially saying women who choose epidurals are not allowed to say they gave birth : ) and so on is sort of disgusting to me. Just because you felt MORE pain doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

You mention the risks of having an epidural. There are also risks getting into your car and driving on the highway. There are also risks in having a homebirth.
That sounds extremely difficult to have to lay in a hospital bed with pitocin. I would've had an epi, for sure. But natural birth is not just about going pain relief free -- it's about avoiding certain siutations to begin with. As the pps mentioned, it's about the obstetrical system that has been set up to expect women to 1) lay in a bed during birth, which is the worst place you can be, and 2) to have augmentation forced on them when things don't progress normally from having to lay in the bed, etc.

There are risks to everything in life. Nothing is risk free. But there are ways you can lower your risks. I do not go skydiving. I have eliminated that risk of death from my life. I drive a safe car with lots of airbags. I have lowered my risks of dying in a car accident. (As compared to, say, driving a Ford Festiva with no airbags.)
Artisan is offline  
#64 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 12:19 AM
 
Jade2561's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Lowcountry
Posts: 1,277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had an epidural for my induced labor with dd but I would like a homebirth for my next birth because I know that I can labor & birth without drugs. I don't think that people who love/want drugs right away are "wrong" or "bad", but I feel sorry for them that they don't have enough confidence in their body's ability to labor naturally and normally.
Jade2561 is offline  
#65 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 12:19 AM
 
Artisan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorijds
I am just sad that so many women want an epidural, or feel pushed into it, because of their own feelings of fear. Which is, of course, merely a reflection of societal feelings towards pain and women's bodies. I am sad that women do not give themselves the chance, or are not given the chance to birth how they were made to birth. I am happy that women have the opportunity for pain relief; I just wish it wasn't treated like the "best" option by the medical community, and that we as a medical community were more in tune to the idea that a good outcome is not just a live baby and live mama. A good outcome is a mother who is not only healthy, holding her healthy baby in her arms, but who also feels she was a part of a wonderful process. That she birthed on her terms, and she was supported. That she and her baby were honored, and her birth was treated as the sacred event it is. No matter the means, be they a UC or an elective C-section, or something in the middle; if all mamas felt that way after their births, I think our world would be a much better place.
Artisan is offline  
#66 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 12:27 AM
 
runes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I think women who get epidurals are brave... Brave to let a sharp object near such a sensitive area like the spinal column... Sorry in my world, Sharp ojbjects and my spine are never to meet unless medically neccissary
Yeah that! No needles near my beloved spinal cord, thankyouverymuch.

Of course there is a time and a place for compassionate use of pain relieving drugs, but in the end I think that women are not given full disclosure of the true ramifications of the use of epidurals and that to me is a huge concern. It's not the drugs themselves, it's the system and how they do not give all of the facts so that women can make informed choices for themselves.

That said, I do feel like I've received fairly negative comments from people when I say I'm giving birth at home. I've been called anything from a "martyr" and "crazy" at worst, and "adventurous" at best. I've had MEN (of all people) say that the best things about birth are a) epidural and b)demerol and that their best advice for me is to ask for the epidural the moment I walk in the door. I'm sorry but where is that darn rolling eyes smiley when I need it? Then of course when I say that I'm planning a homebirth with a midwife, they sometimes ask "why, when you can have drugs at the hospital?" Aargh.

I fully admit that I do judge people who have epidurals, but it's not really about the pain relieving aspect of it that bugs me. I judge them for not taking the time and making the effort to get the facts and to become fully informed about this very important decision. I can see many scenarios where there is truly a use for these 'tools' (and many women have written about their own stories in this thread). I am a firm believer that if the medical/pharma establishment helped to REALLY educate women on the repercussions of their choices, that the number of medicalized births would decrease dramatically.
runes is offline  
#67 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 12:30 AM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
MrsMoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorijds
Staffing at hospitals is very tight. A woman who lays in bed and watches tv is a heck of alot easier to take care of than a woman who needs you in there for every contraction, talking her through it, rubbing her back, supporting her. Who would employ all the anesthesiologists if we didn't have a 90% epidural rate at our local hospital? It is very much about management and money, NOT about compassionate pain relief for women.
The hospital staff ignored me... and I was pree and had other medical issues to boot... unless of course it was to come into the room to be rude to me because I was sitting up instead of laying flat on my back. I never got any sort of comfort (back rubbing, talking) or coaching from the hospital staff for my natural childbirth... in fact I was treated really nasty by my first nurse - so bad I told her she was fired and to get the hell out of my room. The next nurse was very nice but didn't coach me either. So on that note, I doubt a hospital would employ douals for each woman giving birth...
MrsMoe is offline  
#68 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 12:45 AM
 
WinterBaby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I did that intervention free at home sort of birth, and I'll try to tell anyone that seems remotely interested that I think it's totally the way to go. I felt such a high after dd's birth, I guess it's made me passionate on the subject, lol. I hope my passion for freedom from intervention doesn't come across as being down on women who have them. Maybe sometimes passion for one thing can come across as judgemental of alternatives. Lemme tell ya though, if I have to be or wanted to be in the hospital birthing, I'd get the epidural. Maybe some other drugs besides. I can't fathom handling the stress that busy enviorment would be to me while birthing otherwise.
WinterBaby is offline  
#69 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 01:33 AM
 
TurboClaudia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: in a yellow house
Posts: 7,363
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
My first and so far only childbirth was a horrible exp. I was also given pitocin when I was at 8cm... but I never did have an epidural.


But with that said, I wonder if that was actually foolish on my part. I lay there in complete agony and for what? To carry some sort of badge of honor? It could also be argued that having a difficult childbirth could be hard on the fetus as the mother's BP is elevated and the mother of course undergoes other stresses due to the pain of childbirth.

With comments such as going painfree is going through a real childbirth (bascially saying women who choose epidurals are not allowed to say they gave birth : ) and so on is sort of disgusting to me. Just because you felt MORE pain doesn't make you any better than anyone else.
There is a big difference between experiencing pain and experiencing suffering. What you describe above sounds like it might be suffering. What I experienced with my own labor was simply pain, not suffering.

~claudia
TurboClaudia is offline  
#70 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 01:41 AM
 
LoveChild421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North GA
Posts: 4,593
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
I lay there in complete agony and for what? To carry some sort of badge of honor?
you were probably in such agony due to the pitocin and being in bed.

what for? for the baby, for myself (to avoid a higher chance of episiotomy, forceps, prolonged pushing, C-section, catheter, etc and to be able to experience the birth process and sensations fully rather than being partially numb or out of it with a spinal headache after the baby is born).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
It could also be argued that having a difficult childbirth could be hard on the fetus as the mother's BP is elevated and the mother of course undergoes other stresses due to the pain of childbirth.
a fetus is made to handle the stresses of normal labor- it's painful- that's why the body secretes endorphins- the baby also secretes endorphins and some adrenaline- these hormones then aid in the baby being able to breath easier and transition to the outside world easier. there is a critical interplay of hormones that goes on- mother and baby in a normal labor are both made to handle that- see http://www.pregnancy.com.au/labour_hormones.htm now pit. labor is a whole different story or very prolonged labors...I had a "difficult" labor myself due to some complications with scar tissue on my cervix and ds was fine Apgars of 9 and 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
You mention the risks of having an epidural. There are also risks getting into your car and driving on the highway. There are also risks in having a homebirth.
There are also risks in having a hospital birth (statistically hospital birth is more risky) one of them being interventions such as pitocin, epi, and all that usually follows. Birth has inherent risk- one way to reduce that risk is to not have an epi or any other drugs unless absolutely necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
...it doesn't mean that all things natural are positive or that all things natural feel good. Nor does it mean we should be forced to me a marytr.
I have never felt like a martyr- giving birth naturally (although extremely painful due to some complications) was the empowering, liberating thing I have ever done in my life- I have so much more confidence in my body and in myself- it was a life changing experience for me. I never felt as though I "had to" give birth naturally- I wanted to experience birth fully and have confidence that my body could do what it was made to do. It hurt like a SOB but I wasn't "suffering" until the end and it was almost over anyway. It was just intense pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
What about liberating women? What about freedom of choice and the freedom to be who we are, not what others tell us that we should be.

I agree- sure all women have the freedom to choose what they want and that's great, the thing that makes MDC different is that people who really believe in natural birth are the majority here and we support each other because many of us experience nothing but being told to "get the epi", and that "we're crazy" in real life, so this is a haven for us to rant and vent about how much it sucks that the people we know aren't willing to do any research and then expect us who have educated ourselves to just "get the epi it's great! "
In my opinion the most liberating thing in the world for me was learning about natural birth, realizing my body was capable of something so amazing without having to be poked, prodded, cut, or pumped full of drugs. To me there is nothing liberating about being treated like an invalid strapped down flat on my back to a bed with monitors and people telling me to "push push push" and not being in full control of my body.

Jen read.gif Mama of 2 precious boys blowkiss.gif (9)  flowersforyou.gif (6)  and still in heartbeat.gif with my Matt hat.gif after 12 years together. 

rainbow1284.gif Domestic Violence Children's Advocate and Counselor hug2.gif

 homebirth.jpg bf.jpg nocirc.gif ribbonjigsaw.gif 

LoveChild421 is offline  
#71 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 02:06 AM
 
Undercover Hippie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The 'burbs
Posts: 2,214
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
LoveChild421:

Undercover Hippie is offline  
#72 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 02:11 AM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by charmcitymama
Also, does anyone know anyone paralyzed by an epidural or a baby with brain damage? I have never heard of anyone actually having that happen, have you?
Yeah, actually I do. This woman was my neighbor when she became paralysed by an epidural (for those that are wondering, she got a blood clot at the insertion site which lead to permanent paralysis). It's rare, but it does happen. Her comment was 'it doesn't matter how rare it is when it is you'.

And as an L&D nurse, I can tell you that lesser complications are so common as to be considered 'routine'.
crazy_eights is offline  
#73 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 02:28 AM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorijds
From the insider's point of view, I feel like epidurals are routinely offered and even pushed because it is easier to manage the woman's labor. Staffing at hospitals is very tight. A woman who lays in bed and watches tv is a heck of alot easier to take care of than a woman who needs you in there for every contraction, talking her through it, rubbing her back, supporting her. Who would employ all the anesthesiologists if we didn't have a 90% epidural rate at our local hospital? It is very much about management and money, NOT about compassionate pain relief for women.
Having worked L&D for almost 5 years, I have to say :. Great post.
crazy_eights is offline  
#74 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 07:34 AM
 
Artisan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
The hospital staff ignored me... and I was pree and had other medical issues to boot... unless of course it was to come into the room to be rude to me because I was sitting up instead of laying flat on my back. I never got any sort of comfort (back rubbing, talking) or coaching from the hospital staff for my natural childbirth... in fact I was treated really nasty by my first nurse - so bad I told her she was fired and to get the hell out of my room. The next nurse was very nice but didn't coach me either. So on that note, I doubt a hospital would employ douals for each woman giving birth...
This is horrible... no one deserves to be treated that way. Can I ask, then, why you are wanting another hospital birth?
Artisan is offline  
#75 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 07:54 AM
 
ericswifey27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had an epidural...after 14 hours of active labor and having learned that I was still at a 3... I couldn't take it more.... I was given pitocin against my birth plan wishes... I really do think that without pitocin I could have done it naturally. But that's another issue...

Mama to my spirited J, and L, my homebirth: baby especially DTaP, MMR (family vax injuries)
ericswifey27 is offline  
#76 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 09:03 AM
 
massagemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i planned for a natural birth with a midwife at a hospital.

i went into labor at 2 a.m. after sleeping for about 1 hour. i was in labor for 24 hours and the baby was in a posterior position. i had access to a shower, massage, and a doula. nobody mentioned any interventions to me, i did not have an iv. the nurse held a waterproof monitor onto my belly to check the baby while i was in the shower so i didn't have to be on the bed. my husband and i took classes, read books and did everything we could think of during labor. my midwife has been practicing over 25 years.

i ended up with an epidural. after not being able to sit down, lay down or otherwise rest for over 24 hours, and not sleeping from the night before, i was exhausted. i had progressed only 1 centimeter in seven hours.

this thread doesn't bother me, b/c i think that judging someone is more harmful to the person judging than the person being judged. and next time, i plan on having a home birth. but i don't regret my hospital birth and don't regret that i used pain relief. i knew all the risks involved, and i hated being hooked up to the iv's, the cathether, and all the other "stuff". but i'm not going to beat myself up about it either, just b/c it's not "crunchy" to use pain relief during labor.
massagemom is offline  
#77 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 12:50 PM
 
LoveChild421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North GA
Posts: 4,593
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
massagemom I hope you don't feel like any of us would judge you- I think most of us would have done the same thing in your situation- you tried your darndest- you were very informed. Your situation is much different than, say my friend who got the epi after an hour of contractions and talked on her cellphone til it was time to push...still I try hard not to judge her but rather the medical establishment that pushes that sort of mentality on us.

Jen read.gif Mama of 2 precious boys blowkiss.gif (9)  flowersforyou.gif (6)  and still in heartbeat.gif with my Matt hat.gif after 12 years together. 

rainbow1284.gif Domestic Violence Children's Advocate and Counselor hug2.gif

 homebirth.jpg bf.jpg nocirc.gif ribbonjigsaw.gif 

LoveChild421 is offline  
#78 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 01:09 PM
 
runes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
massagemom-your situation is completely different. again, it was compassionate use of pain relieving medication and you made the choice in a fully informed manner. crunchiness has nothing to do with it. so glad that you had the option to have the medication so that you could rest and birth your baby.

it makes my stomach turn to hear, over and over, the same stories from women: "my baby was too big", "i was overdue" leading to induction, leading to epidural, leading to "emergency c-section" or else somebody dies... then come to find out the baby was barely 7 lbs, or that "overdue" was past edd by 3 days. this is just a tragedy that women are fed these lines time and again. people are shocked when i refuse to tell them our edd, i tell them that due dates are a guesstimate at best and we're expecting our baby any time between early oct and early november. this has confused many people, surprisingly.
runes is offline  
#79 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 01:19 PM
 
wasabi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 2,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorijds
From the insider's point of view, I feel like epidurals are routinely offered and even pushed because it is easier to manage the woman's labor. Staffing at hospitals is very tight. A woman who lays in bed and watches tv is a heck of alot easier to take care of than a woman who needs you in there for every contraction, talking her through it, rubbing her back, supporting her. Who would employ all the anesthesiologists if we didn't have a 90% epidural rate at our local hospital? It is very much about management and money, NOT about compassionate pain relief for women.
This was exactly how I felt for my second birth. My nurse was in and out of the room since she had several other patients but I believe she spent more time with me since the other patients had all gotten their epidurals at 3cm and I was still chugging along without one at 8cm. I was stuck there for four hours and kept feeling an urge to push. Each time she checked me to find I was still an 8 she offered an epi even though I had made it clear I didn't want pain meds. I course had let them do AROM to help things along which led to a low fever within an hour which led to an iv and "we'll just put in some pit while we're at it." You're typical cascade of interventions. Yeah it is definitely very hard to go without pain meds if you're not having a natural labor. Once I was able to cut those things out I had not trouble forgoing the pain meds. But anyway she was definitely having to give me more attention and was more than happy to finally get to call the anesthesiologist to give me my epi at 8cm. I wish she had told me to get out of the bed and try to walk a bit or squat or something but no they just wanted me in that bed being still.

Quote:
I have never felt like a martyr- giving birth naturally (although extremely painful due to some complications) was the empowering, liberating thing I have ever done in my life- I have so much more confidence in my body and in myself- it was a life changing experience for me. I never felt as though I "had to" give birth naturally- I wanted to experience birth fully and have confidence that my body could do what it was made to do. It hurt like a SOB but I wasn't "suffering" until the end and it was almost over anyway. It was just intense pain.
Yes!
wasabi is offline  
#80 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 01:29 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 27,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I can't imagine why anybody would feel that having a natural childbirth makes you a martyr. I feel like a martyr to established medical practice for having had three c-sections that I didn't want (the first while I was screaming that I didn't want one, and pleading with my ex to make them stop). I'd love to know what it would feel like if my body delivered a baby by itself - quite amazing, I think, but I'm never going to know. I don't thinkn that wanting to makes me a martyr - quite the opposite, really.

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
#81 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 02:13 PM
 
AmyB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Utah
Posts: 1,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
I notice a lot of very very negative attitudes on this forum twords epidurals and the women that get them.... What about freedom of choice and the freedom to be who we are, not what others tell us that we should be.
The freedom of choice argument depends on whether women are getting good enought information to know the implications of their choice. When doctors sell epidurals they are somewhat selling snake-oil, and that makes it a lot harder for women to make an informed choice.

First, epidural mythology says that unmedicated childbirth is the worst pain you can even immagine. The fact of an epidural as a standard offer makes birth sound horrifying. Luckily, my own mom told me that she thought it was worse to get a root canal than to have a baby and she was right. I can think of a number of things more scarry and painful than childbirth... food poisoning comes to mind, and so does a bad reaction I once had to Demerol.

Second, epidural mythology says that the pain of labor has no value. However, in my experience, the feelings in my body helped guide the birth. If I had not been able to feel my body, I am 100% sure my first child would have been born surgically.

In other words, epidurals are used as a way to scare women into submitting to medicalized birth, and the information women get is incomplete in some significant ways.

As for myself, I have never had an epidural. I had a hospital birth where I refused pain meds (mainly due to previous bad reactions) and subsequently, a home birth which is what I wish I had done the first time.

All I know is that the hospital staff didn't have a clue how to help a woman who wasn't numb and wouldn't believe anything I told them about what I felt in my body. So to me epidurals also reprsent unforgiveable ignorance about the process of birth on the part of conventionally-trained "medical experts". That experience has definitely given me a negative attitude.

--AmyB
AmyB is offline  
#82 of 106 Old 08-24-2005, 07:45 PM
 
wannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboClaudia
There is a big difference between experiencing pain and experiencing suffering. What you describe above sounds like it might be suffering. What I experienced with my own labor was simply pain, not suffering.

~claudia
Good point, Claudia! I was the opposite, MrsMoe - my sufferring started when the pain finished - I was emotionally more vunerable and upset after the epidural than before.
wannabe is offline  
#83 of 106 Old 08-25-2005, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
MrsMoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe
Good point, Claudia! I was the opposite, MrsMoe - my sufferring started when the pain finished - I was emotionally more vunerable and upset after the epidural than before.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

Hey, I agree with you all regarding epidurals being risky! So I don't anybody to think I am all pro-epi as a whole. I was just worried about what I felt was a tone of judgement here. I really do wish the forum was more liberated to "women's rights," and sometimes I honestly feel it's not as "liberated" as one might think it would be. I would never judge a woman negatively if she got pain relief, even if she knew the risks.
MrsMoe is offline  
#84 of 106 Old 08-25-2005, 10:34 PM
 
jplain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 600
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
Hey, I agree with you all regarding epidurals being risky! So I don't anybody to think I am all pro-epi as a whole. I was just worried about what I felt was a tone of judgement here.
But you have to keep in mind that this is a website focused on Natural Family Living, not Anything-Goes or You're-Okay-I'm-Okay. Even if you don't include childbirth in your definition of NFL, you're going to find that Mothering Magazine and many of the members here at MDC do. Their posted opinions are going to reflect that.
jplain is offline  
#85 of 106 Old 08-26-2005, 11:21 AM
 
massagemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jplain
But you have to keep in mind that this is a website focused on Natural Family Living, not Anything-Goes or You're-Okay-I'm-Okay. Even if you don't include childbirth in your definition of NFL, you're going to find that Mothering Magazine and many of the members here at MDC do. Their posted opinions are going to reflect that.
yes, but what are the "requirements" to be a follower of natural family living?

is an epidural birth but using cloth diapers and not circumcising or vaxing "good" enough?

or a natural birth but using disposable diapers and circumcising but not vaxing?


what's the magic combination?


obviously a woman would not be on this site if she weren't interested in learning more about NFL or weren't a follower to some degree.
massagemom is offline  
#86 of 106 Old 08-26-2005, 11:30 AM
 
the_lissa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 13,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by massagemom
yes, but what are the "requirements" to be a follower of natural family living?

is an epidural birth but using cloth diapers and not circumcising or vaxing "good" enough?

or a natural birth but using disposable diapers and circumcising but not vaxing?


what's the magic combination?


obviously a woman would not be on this site if she weren't interested in learning more about NFL or weren't a follower to some degree.
Well very few people are going to be 100% nfl, but most people respect this.

I love Wndy's, but I'm not going to start a thread here about how Wendy's is great.

That being said, I would never judge another woman for getting an epidural or anything else for that matter. I don't know her pain threshold, what her labour was like, support people, etc. I had one myslf although I regret it. I just wish every woman was informed if the risks, etc. I had to read and sign a waiver when I had mine, but I talk to women who didn't know there were any risks, let alone specific or common ones. I am about informed consent, and it seems like a lot of dr's aren't being forthright.

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

the_lissa is offline  
#87 of 106 Old 08-26-2005, 12:30 PM
 
KKmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: out talking to the crocuses
Posts: 2,627
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think there could be a little more compassion on this thread... as with many other situations, it helps to hear a woman's individual story before judging.

I'm pretty darn well-informed about birth. With my 2nd, I had hoped to go drug-free, but the goal of a VBAC was more important to me, and I realized that I was willing to make compromises to get there. After 24 hours of labor (at home), I was exhausted. I went to the hospital, I had an epidural, and as happens with some women, it actually helped me dilate faster (while my dh, my doula, and I got some much needed rest). Also, I had some painful ovarian cysts which ruptured during the pushing stage (by far the most painful part of the entire labor and birth for me... pushing was *nothing* compared to that). I don't think I could have made it through the pushing if an epidural had not been in place... it had been turned down for the pushing, but then I asked them to give me a bump or 2 to help me get through *that*. And I had my VBAC.
KKmama is offline  
#88 of 106 Old 08-26-2005, 12:32 PM
 
the_lissa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 13,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I hope my post did not come across as judgmental becuase i did not mean it to at all.

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

the_lissa is offline  
#89 of 106 Old 08-26-2005, 03:40 PM
 
massagemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I love Wndy's, but I'm not going to start a thread here about how Wendy's is great.

yes, but that comparison would imply that someone that has received an epidural during childbirth "loves" epidurals. it is not the same thing.

i don't have any ill will towards anybody that has posted on this thread, actually it's the exact opposite, b/c i see this as a way for me to learn from other people and i have also articulated my own feelings about my birth to a higher level than before i posted on this thread.

my point really is that a woman you talk to a lot in the cloth diapering forum, or in the babywearing forum, or whatever forums are your favorite MAY have had an epidural during her birth. so to paint all women that have used pain relief during labor with the same broad brush is painful for everyone involved.

i don't think that anyone should be a proponent for epidural births either, it's the judgemental tone that pops up from time to time, about "those women that have used epidurals" that is being discussed. or at least that's the way i read the op.
massagemom is offline  
#90 of 106 Old 08-26-2005, 03:46 PM
 
pamamidwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Oregon
Posts: 7,644
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think as long as there are women birthing in strange surroundings with strangers, there will be a larger need for epidurals.

I've had plenty of clients in my practice get an epidural when we transferred to the hospital. There are plenty of good reasons for epidurals. Many times, I am grateful for them.

That said, what is it about our culture that almost frighteningly screams at women to have "their" epidural? Why are women so rabid about talking about how great they are? Why are there divisions between natural vs medicated? When does an epidural remove the birth experience and when does it make it happen?

I think that we don't live in a culture that could birth without medication and epidurals. We love drugs, most women birth around total strangers in a rather bizarre environment, and are attended by people who are afraid of birth. Many women have experienced sexual abuse and this further escalates the desire for a painless birth - or at least a birth where you cannot feel the sensations around your sexual organs.

Other times, there is an enormous amount of pain that is present in birth, even when supported and loved. Some women are ok with it, some women aren't. Some women eat meat, some women don't.
pamamidwife is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off