Pro-homebirth risk ethics - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 04:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Raven
I think to focus needs to be shifted. The ethical blunder lies within the hands of the medical profession who LIE to women.
Indeed!

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#62 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 04:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WC_hapamama
This is not true.

I've had 3 hospital births (4th coming up in December). I've dealt with a total of 3 different OBs and more L&D nurses than I can remember. None of them ever told me such a thing.
So, you're saying since this has never happened to YOU, then the other poster who HAS heard dotcors say these things must be lying?

Grow up. The world is much bigger than your experiences. There are many women who have been lied to and manipulated this way during labor.

Kathryn
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#63 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 04:11 PM
 
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"But feeling uncomfortable or scared in your birthing environment certainly would inhibit the birthing process." Kavamamakava

So true!

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#64 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ethics, from Wikipedia:
Ethics is the branch of axiology – one of the four major branches of philosophy, alongside metaphysics, epistemology, and logic – which – which attempts to understand the nature of morality; to define that which is right from that which is wrong. The Western tradition of ethics is sometimes called moral philosophy.

[Axiology- from the Greek axia (αξια, value, worth), is the study of value or quality]

My summary of said definition:
Ethics attempts to understand the nature of morality, to define right from wrong.

SO- IMO ethics and morallity are closely linked. IMO it could be said to be "immoral" to choose an unethical choice.

-Angela
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#65 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by liseux
I think many unethical things happen in hospitals, but the act of going to a hospital in itself is not unethical.
Two topics from liseux's post- I will address one at a time.

Okay- is there any place that one would choose to birth that would be unethical? Would it be unethical to CHOOSE to birth on a trapeeze, while swinging without a net? Of course. Then is there a case where it COULD be unethical to choose to birth in a hospital? Of course. For example, you KNOW for a fact that the baby will be taken from you without reason and treated harshly and subjected to a serious chance of infection and there is no other reason to be in said hospital, then yes, that choice WOULD be unethical.

-Angela
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#66 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by liseux
Circumcision is a perfect example of something unethical happening in a hospital, so is giving a new mom formula samples. These are choices that should go away because they are unethical. In birth its more tricky, doing a c/s or a huge episiotomy without a good reason is not ethical, but its complicated by fear of lawsuits and doctors feeling they should err on the side of action, rather than inaction.
Okay- we accept that these are unethical happenings. Then does not the woman have an ethical responsibility to protect her child from such things? What if there is no way she can protect her child from them in the hospital? What if it is highly unlikely that she can protect her child in the hospital? IMO in those cases her only ethical choice (assuming no other medical issues of course) is to choose another place to birth.

-Angela
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#67 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Raven
I think to focus needs to be shifted. The ethical blunder lies within the hands of the medical profession who LIE to women.
I agree that there is a huge ethical burden on the system which all but forces women to birth in hospitals and the medical professionals who make those hospitals a bad, bad place to birth (as a rule- I accept that there are execeptions, don't bog us down telling us about all the exeptions)

HOWEVER, women also have an ethical obligation to do their own research and make their own decisions in order to protect themselves and their children.

-Angela
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#68 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 06:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna
I agree that there is a huge ethical burden on the system which all but forces women to birth in hospitals and the medical professionals who make those hospitals a bad, bad place to birth (as a rule- I accept that there are execeptions, don't bog us down telling us about all the exeptions)

HOWEVER, women also have an ethical obligation to do their own research and make their own decisions in order to protect themselves and their children.

-Angela
And what about women who live in countries such as mine? I live in South Africa and the standard of Government care here is apalling. Not only that - the majority of people who have to use Government institutions do not speak English as their first language. I wish I could get you (all) to see how frustratingly impossible it is to be treated with respect!! Let me try though.... Firts of all, you do not see the same Dr for your prenatal visits and during your pregnancy (unless you are high risk) you don't see the OB until you deliver.

The Dr's you see are either CNM's or OBGYN students. It is a first come first serve thing for prenatal visits and there are about 70 people per day so you arrive at 6am and you are lucky to leave at 3pm. You can imagine with the language barrier and the mood of the care-provider (who has to get through 70 people) there is not much room for telling them what is happening and what stuff means.

I remember I had to go to one of these facilities when I was pg with Amber (nearly 6yrs ago). It is law here that if you have a homebirth you have to have a back up hospital so I had to go there for one of my prenatals so I was on their books. Anyway... I was sitting in the waiting area where I could actually hear what the Dr was saying to the woman before me.

"where is your bag?"
[silence]
"[name] where is your bag?"
"ummm....."
"It says here on your chart that you are going to be induced today. Where is your bag?"

This poor woman had no CLUE what this dr was talking about and the dr sure wan't making any attempt to help her understand. I was LIVID.

Also, while I was waiting there were labouring women walking in the corridors. I started chatting to them. Turns out 3 out of 5 of them had been induced that morning. They were not told why.

These women do not have the capacity to do their own research and the medical establishment is not doing anything to help them - even on a BASIC level - understand.

Sorry for the ramble, just trying to offer a different perspective here.
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#69 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Good points Raven, I was admittedly approaching this from a narrow US perspective. It's hard to cover all the issues around the world in one thread though.

thanks for the reminder.

-Angela
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#70 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 06:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna
SO- IMO ethics and morallity are closely linked. IMO it could be said to be "immoral" to choose an unethical choice.
Let's try to be careful about this though. Saying that something is immoral is casting a lot of judgment on individuals who, as you pointed out, are going to be ignorant of what exactly their choices are, ethical or unethical, due to circumstances outside of their control. You cannot tell someone that it is hands-down wrong of them to birth in a hospital or formula feed, even if you know that there are clearly more responsible choices. I know you are not suggesting laws that would enforce this, but supposing you are a religious person, do we have to then answer to God about whether we birthed in a hospital? Which ring of Hell is reserved for those who formula feed?

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#71 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Let's try to be careful about this though. Saying that something is immoral is casting a lot of judgment on individuals who, as you pointed out, are going to be ignorant of what exactly their choices are, ethical or unethical, due to circumstances outside of their control. You cannot tell someone that it is hands-down wrong of them to birth in a hospital or formula feed, even if you know that there are clearly more responsible choices. I know you are not suggesting laws that would enforce this, but supposing you are a religious person, do we have to then answer to God about whether we birthed in a hospital? Which ring of Hell is reserved for those who formula feed?
I leave those questions up to those with those beliefs. That is not my system of beliefs so I can not speak to it. I am not bothered by someone thinking that I am immoral for something that I do not think IS immoral. Each person must make their own ethical and moral decisions based on their own belief systems.

And actually, in some cases, I have no problem telling people that their choices were hands down wrong. And if they think that of my choices, I am more than happy to discuss my reasoning.

-Angela
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#72 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 06:43 PM
 
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"Okay- we accept that these are unethical happenings. Then does not the woman have an ethical responsibility to protect her child from such things? What if there is no way she can protect her child from them in the hospital? What if it is highly unlikely that she can protect her child in the hospital? IMO in those cases her only ethical choice (assuming no other medical issues of course) is to choose another place to birth." Alegna

If there was no way that you could protect your baby in the hospital, then yes it would be unethical to go there and you`d have to be pretty damn stupid to not avoid it, or at least an uncaring mother. But, that relies on a pretty big "if", one that`s far from reality IME.

There are too many factors, what about a woman who had 3 hb`s and they all went haywire and she realizes that she would feel more comfortable in a hospital. Like my dh says, "the definition of insanity is when you do something over and over again, expecting a different result.

This whole premise is based on something very subjective, that all hospitals are dangerous and bad. If we have evidence to the contrary we have been asked to not mention it in case we bog down the discussion. Alegna, I respect what you`re saying, but I don`t know how it can be discussed with such controlled parameters. Everybody needs to basically agree on the supposition that all hospitals are bad. I think its an interesting subject and I have been on both sides. Maybe I`m missing the point, I`m trying to keep it diplomatic here.

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#73 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 07:05 PM
 
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I'm starting to wonder what the practicality of this discussion is. You're not interested in law-making, you don't care what God thinks about it - what are you trying to accomplish here? Unless we can say absolutely that all hospitals are inherently dangerous to birthing women and the larger culture accepts that, then all we're doing is blaming women for their births. I have friends with vaccine-damaged children - should they be blamed for the decisions they made at the time with the information they had? Women aren't going to the hospital in a vacuum. They're going there with the larger culture's understanding that hospitals are safe places to birth. Are women responsible for the well-being of themselves and their babies? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean we need to point fingers at them for mistakes that they make unknowingly. As mothers we have enough guilt.

For instance, my first son was born with a cleft lip and palate. I know now that cigarette smoking can contribute to the incidence of clefts. At the time I got pregnant, I was a smoker. I wasn't planning on getting pregnant, but I made an irresponsible decision about contraception one night. Do I need everyone to blame me for my son's defect when I didn't know I was going to get pregnant and when lots of women smoke throughout pregnancy without incidence? Okay, so I didn't go out of my way to smoke while pregnant and in fact quit immediately after finding out, but it is then unethical to sell cigarettes to women of child-bearing age? I suppose that it's unethical to make cigarettes at all, but they do and I'm not going to tell people they can't knowingly damage their bodies.

We could extend and extend this argument to it being unethical to eat junk food, or it being unethical to watch television or do anything potentially harmful. Doing anything where risks far outweigh the benefits could be labled immoral. But what is the point in determining it if there is nothing to be done? Simply to place blame is all I can come up with.

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#74 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 07:05 PM
 
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"There are too many factors, what about a woman who had 3 hb`s and they all went haywire and she realizes that she would feel more comfortable in a hospital." liseux

Wouldn't that depend on WHY they went haywire?

Was it because the midwife did something/didn't do something?

Was it because the mother in law showed up uninvited and stressed everyone out?

Was it because there was a freak accident like cord prolapse or surprise breech (that the midwife wasn't experienced enough to handle)?

There are so many factors involved in birth. You can't boil it all down to one formula.

I'm all for homebirth (even though my son died and *some people* think he would have been fine in a hospital... what the heck do they know, they weren't THERE?) and for *informed* choices. I'm birthing in a hospital with a CNM this time. They have a reputation of being the most natural birth friendly place in the area. They even offer waterbirth. I'm driving an hour away for this. Most people around here just go to the local maternity factory and sign on the dotted line for an epidural.

If they crack a book at all, it's one like "What to Expect" totally medical establishment, and "listen to your doctor like a good little patient and everything will be fine" except if it isn't...

There are no guarantees. Some people seem to think people in white coats and machines that spit out a fancy readout strip are guarantees. They're not.

Neither is a really groovy midwife with years of experience, lots of herbs and incense and a really calming vibe...

Stuff happens, it's just that with our improved sanitation, antibiotics, and nutrition we've gotten used to expecting that babies get born, they grow up, and barring serious car crashes or incurable cancer, they die at a ripe old age surrounded by thier grandkids. It throws everyone for a loop when a baby dies Everyone starts looking for reasons, for someone to be "responsible" for what happened. Sometimes things just happen, and no one is to blame. That's a hard concept to wrap the human mind around.

Kathryn
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#75 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 07:38 PM
 
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"I'm all for homebirth (even though my son died and *some people* think he would have been fine in a hospital... what the heck do they know, they weren't THERE?) and for *informed* choices. I'm birthing in a hospital with a CNM this time." KittyKat

KittyKat, I also had a son die and people thinking that if I hadn`t been at home it wouldn`t have happened. I also still fully support hb. When I was talking about a mama choosing a hospital birth after bad hb`s I was just giving an example, but I was thinking about me & trying to leave my personal experience out of the thread. I felt a strong instinct to have a hospital birth with my 3rd and of all 3 births it was by far the best.

There are absolutely no guarantees, anywhere. I resent the hospital people who think they have it all figured out in terms of safety and I resent the homebirthers who imply that everything will be fine if you "just believe in your body."

I agree with Annakiss, this discussion will probably end up making some women feel like crap about their choices. We all do the best we can at the time. I know women who chose to circ and their babies circs had to be redone over and over. As much as I think the original circ was unethical and ill informed it doesn`t serve any purpose to make the mom feel like crap about it. There are better ways.

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#76 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 08:55 PM
 
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I think the use of the words immoral and unethical is a little pointless here, seeing as there may be one definition in the dictionary, but there is no one true perception of it.. For instance, if "unethical" was sitting here staring all of us in the face, some of us may see it and some may not. But the fact is that anyone is allowed to call something unethical if they want to. It's called an opinion, and since this is a discussion, I think we should all feel free to voice our opinions. Maybe we should stop focusing on the literal sense of the word and just try to grasp what each poster is really trying to say. There is no point to tell another poster that their use of any word is incorrect, because obviously to that person it is. Likewise, just because I would rather HB doesn't mean someone going to the hospital should be labled differently than I...but there we go leading back to opinions again.

When I became pregnant I decided that the welfare of my unborn child exceeded my need for "creature comforts". I include epidurals and spinals and morphine and unnecesary US and formula feeding without trying to breast feed first in this category, among other things. Lucky for me, my love for my baby helped me to accept this sacrifice without reservation. I think being a parent has a lot to do with self-sacrifice and some people may not be ready for this right away. I definitely caught some flack from other people over my decision to HB, even though I know for a fact that many of those people were less educated in the area of birth than I was. I am really proud of the courage that I have in my body's ability to give birth, so I did shout it whenever given the opportunity, but sometimes being pregnant you just don't feel like being judged, and you keep it to yourself. I feel I am blessed to have been brought up in a home that stressed health and informed choice. We believe that things such as childbirth don't need medical intervention… but things such as broken bones do. When it comes to being raised a certain way, I think it's normal to expect people that weren't raised this way to assume chidbirth is a medical event. Sometimes though, they do some reading and come across homebirth and decide that it makes more sense. More power to them, either way, as long as they do in fact do that research. That's the key.

Do I think it is unethical to choose hospital birth over homebirth? No I wouldn't use that word. I do however believe that people who choose things such as elective cesarean and formula feeding without atleast trying to breastfeed first are most likely doing so without properly researching their decisions first. Notice I said most likely, meaning this is not an umbrella statement. No statement such as this can ever be true for everyone, so it helps to not take it too literally. But, for things so important as how you deliver and feed your newborn, if you don't atleast do some soul-searching and research first, then it is a little reckless.

I myself was discriminated against at the hospital when I had to be transported after delivery for stitches. They went so far as to have CPS try and schedule a visit at my home. Unacceptable. I was so proud of myself for having just given birth naturally, without putting my daughter into uneccesary exposure to drugs or forceps or vacuum extraction, etc. And what do I get? A visit from CPS because they think I was being reckless for having a homebirth! I tend to think it's reckless to go into the hospital intending to have an epidural from the start or intending to have a cesarean for unmedical reasons. But I don't see CPS knocking on their doors…… so why mine? I know of children that were circumcised because their parents didn't see the little box to mark if you DONT want your son to be circed. Why is it you have to specifically opt out of an uneccesary surgery?

I have friends that bring me US pix of their fetus every other month. I usually don't say anything, but I personally think that while one is fine, many "just for fun" is a little irresponsible. However, technology is so readily available and has been for my generation to the point that it is deemed flawless by the general population, so what do you expect? People assume that things are safe or they wouldn't be available. Can you blame them? Heck, things should be safe or not available, I wish it were the case. I also have friends who years before even concieving decided they would formula feed. This just makes me sad. There are things out there that the average infomercial-watching American understands to be true, such as smoking and drinking is harmful to a fetus; breast is best etc. (examples) To those who have never heard these things, not honoring them is only ignorance. But to knowingly ignore them is selfish and irresponsible at best. I realize that a lot of people don't realize that there are options out there. I wish I could share my knowledge with people in a way that wouldn't seem overbearing, but as was proven in another thread I started, other mothers don't usually take advice very well. So how can we spread wisdom around if no one accepts advice?

so sorry for the novela!

~Sara, WAHSingMomi to girls R and AV, S.O.A.R. Scout Leader and Homeschooling In Detroit Blogger

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#77 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 09:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WC_hapamama
This is not true.

I've had 3 hospital births (4th coming up in December). I've dealt with a total of 3 different OBs and more L&D nurses than I can remember. None of them ever told me such a thing.

IT IS TRUE.

I have had more than one person tell me that their doctor told them they could be guaranteed a perfect baby if they let them do x, y, or z. This is an experience of years of teaching childbirth classes and working in the homebirthing movement.

Seeing 3-4 doctors and L&D nurses is small. Read L&D by Constance Bean, a CCE, R.N., if you want to know what nurses really see and do.

Most doctors are extremely unethical and dishonest. My Father was a doctor and most of his friends were doctors. I grew up around them. If they can get away with lying they will and do. My sister is also a DDS and is President of her State Dental Society.

Having dealt with doctors all my life, I think I more than know.

I am only giving a warning.

If you do not want to listen, that is your perogative. It is still a free country.

Doctors would have it otherwise.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#78 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 10:15 PM
 
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Applejuice, just because some OB's lie about stuff like that, doesn't mean that all or most do.

I know women who have had OB's like that... most of them (the OBs) were the very old school sort that had their training back in the days of twilight sleep and strapping to the table obstetrics.

Anybody that listens to a doctor that promises them a perfect outcome on anything is a fool. It doesn't matter if the doctor is promising a perfect baby, or the perfect boob job.

True, there are a lot of medical professionals out there that have some kind of God complex going. I've had a few of those myself... when I run into them, I switch doctors.

I think a big part of the problem is that many of us were raised to believe that all doctors are the ultimate authority, period. That if the doctor says something needs to be done that we should do it, or that the doctors diagnosis is final... no questioning, nevermind thinking that the doctor may be wrong.

I'm comfortable with my birthing choices because I've chosen practitioners that respect my wishes and who aren't afraid to answer questions or offer other options if I ask. If they weren't that way, they wouldn't be my practitioners.

I do think it's strange that many people submit to medical procedures on themselves and their children without any questions.
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#79 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 10:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WC_hapamama
Applejuice, just because some OB's lie about stuff like that, doesn't mean that all or most do.
I already know that. One of my favorite people is Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, but he was a pediatrician.

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I think a big part of the problem is that many of us were raised to believe that all doctors are the ultimate authority, period.
NOT ME! My Father used to laugh at all of them, and he was one of them. My sister has already told me she would never accept me or my children as patients. That is O.K. I still love her.

Quote:
I do think it's strange that many people submit to medical procedures on themselves and their children without any questions.
I am old enough to remember DES being given to prevent miscarriage, radium boxes on healthy thymus glands, and wholesale tonsillectomies being done to keep from getting colds. I also remember classmates with braces on their legs, classmates losing a year of school due to rheumatic fever, and playmates whose sibling was alittle "slow" because it was commonplace in maternity wards to hold a mothers legs together to prevent the baby's birth until the doctor arrived.

People never learn.

They keep repeating the same mistakes.

If you do not like to get bit, stay away from snakes.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#80 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 10:40 PM
 
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Raven, when I pg with my first I was on medicaid and went to the clinic for prenantal appointments and I was treated very much the same as what you described. You had to sign in and then it was first come first serve. They lined us up to weigh us and take our blood pressure then you had to wait some more until a doctor or nurse was ready to see you. I never saw the same doc/nurse twice. I also got the "privilege" of having to see a social worker who was damn determined to get me to admit my bf was a drug addict or abusive. She also hounded me about what kind of birth control I was going to take after I gave birth. I would get to the clinic in the morning and wouldn't leave until late afternoon. It was a bad experience. I am appalled that is the standard of care where you live , here it's just how the poor are treated.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#81 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 10:46 PM
 
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For many of my patients (mostly teenagers), the hospital birth is a very good thing. It is the first place where they are introduce to the idea of breastfeeding, infant care and self-care. Many of my patients don't have the first clue about babies ("wow - I didn't think babies pooped until they ate food!"). So they are actually learning a lot at the hospital. That is my favorite part of doing postpartum, being able to teach patients. I've had patients who didn't know you could breastfeed for more than six months ("doesn't your milk just go away?"). Patients who had never changed a diaper, patients who didn't know the baby had a cord (much less how to care for it.). I think this shows how the art of mothering has died in a way. At least in the sense that your mom would show you how to be a mom. For most new mommies the grandma might fly in for a couple days and help with housework and then hit the road. I wish my mom could have stayed with me to show me how to mother. But we don't have the community we used to. I think the abandonment of women and community is the real ethical issue.

As far as epidurals being "unethical" due to the minute risk, if you feel it is unethical for you, don't have one. I am a very tense person in labor. I was induced with my first (due to severe PIH/pulmonary edema/renal insufficiency) and after 17 hrs of pitocin had dilated one freaking inch. I was lying on my left side to keep my bp down and placental perfusion up. I was so tired of all the pain. I told the doctor that we needed to try an epidural. If I didn't start dilating soon we were looking at a c/s (at that point I had not urinated in 3 days). Lo and behold, I relaxed after the epidural and let my body do it's thing. I had a nice vaginal delivery of a perfect healthy newborn and breastfed in the delivery room. He was away from my side for a total of one hour during our stay. With baby #2 I made it 23 hrs before taking the epidural and dilated really fast after finally relaxing with it. I push a whole 2 times and she was delivered up onto my chest and she nursed immediately. Even though she was 34 weeks she only went to the nursery once, for her hearing test. So there are hospitals that are safe and good to deliver in. And epidurals can be a really good thing.

I think homebirth is fascinating, but not an option for me. I have early babies and don't think it would be safe popping out a 33 weeker in the bathtub (oh how I would love a waterbirth though).

Tamara: hs'ing Christian mom of five here and five in Heaven. Joyfully awaiting Punkin, coming mid-Sept!
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#82 of 181 Old 10-25-2005, 11:56 PM
 
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I am old enough to remember DES being given to prevent miscarriage, radium boxes on healthy thymus glands, and wholesale tonsillectomies being done to keep from getting colds. I also remember classmates with braces on their legs, classmates losing a year of school due to rheumatic fever, and playmates whose sibling was alittle "slow" because it was commonplace in maternity wards to hold a mothers legs together to prevent the baby's birth until the doctor arrived.

People never learn.

They keep repeating the same mistakes.

If you do not like to get bit, stay away from snakes.
Ah... you're A LOT older than I am then. I'm only 29.

A lot of the stuff you're describing sounds like the stuff my Grandma and Dad have told me about... Dad is 56.

I remember cringing in horror that first time I took my oldest son to visit my grandmother, when she suggested that I use her kitchen to make that gawdawful formula concoction out of canned milk and karo syrup.

The only worse formula horror story I've heard of is the stuff MIL had to use on DH when she weaned him at 6 months old. He was milk and soy allergic, so the formula they gave him was made from, get this, beef hearts! :Puke

I don't play with snakes... but I make it a point to know which ones are poisonous so I can take extra precautions around them.
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#83 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 12:36 AM
 
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This is not true.

I've had 3 hospital births (4th coming up in December). I've dealt with a total of 3 different OBs and more L&D nurses than I can remember. None of them ever told me such a thing.
No offense, but your three experiences don't negate anyone else's. I'm glad you didn't have the experience applejuice described, but I bet it's more common (or similar actions/words are) than you think.
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#84 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 12:38 AM
 
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I think to focus needs to be shifted. The ethical blunder lies within the hands of the medical profession who LIE to women.
Word, Raven.
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#85 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 12:39 AM
 
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Two topics from liseux's post- I will address one at a time.

Okay- is there any place that one would choose to birth that would be unethical? Would it be unethical to CHOOSE to birth on a trapeeze, while swinging without a net? Of course. Then is there a case where it COULD be unethical to choose to birth in a hospital? Of course. For example, you KNOW for a fact that the baby will be taken from you without reason and treated harshly and subjected to a serious chance of infection and there is no other reason to be in said hospital, then yes, that choice WOULD be unethical.

-Angela
I want to gently point out that not all hospitals treat babies this way.
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#86 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 12:42 AM
 
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Okay- we accept that these are unethical happenings. Then does not the woman have an ethical responsibility to protect her child from such things? What if there is no way she can protect her child from them in the hospital? What if it is highly unlikely that she can protect her child in the hospital? IMO in those cases her only ethical choice (assuming no other medical issues of course) is to choose another place to birth.

-Angela
I think we know that mothers *can* and do protect their babies from circumcision in the hositals and free formula only gets to babies if their mothers give it to them or allow hospital staff to. I'm sure someone around here has heard a horror story, but almost all of the time, if a mother chooses not to give formula or circ it doesn't happen.
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#87 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 12:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I want to gently point out that not all hospitals treat babies this way.
Of course not. I am merely saying that to choose to birth in one that did, would be unethical IMO.

-Angela
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#88 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 12:45 AM
 
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HOWEVER, women also have an ethical obligation to do their own research and make their own decisions in order to protect themselves and their children.

-Angela
I think this statement comes form a pretty privileged place. An extremely large number of women in this country (US, I assume you're here as well) do not have access to information. A single mother on welfare working 12 hour shifts needs the few hours of waking time she has not working to be the the child she already has. She doesn't even have time to read if someone handed her concise reading material with everything she needed to know, let alone the fact that she may not even have the reading comprehension to do it.

Again, I get really uncomfortable when people dictate what women have an ethical obligation to do.
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#89 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 12:59 AM
 
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And actually, in some cases, I have no problem telling people that their choices were hands down wrong. And if they think that of my choices, I am more than happy to discuss my reasoning.

-Angela
I am really amazed by this. Who are you to tell people their choices are wrong? This is the behavior of someone who is insecure in their own actions, not an outspoken advocate for homebirth. Telling people they are wrong "hands down" doesn't take into account their personal situation and more importantly, it alienates them! It is a dangerous road to travel, especially for one hellbent on trying to change the world.

Once, I was more like you. I thought that people who didn't plan to breastfeed shouldn't bother having kids. I once thought that people who knowingly chose hospital birth, if only for pain relief, knowing the risks, were clearly wrong in their choice. I'm glad that I have become less harsh and unforgiving. I think becoming a doula has a bit to do with it because my job is to be with women and help them have the birth *they* want, not the birth *I* think they should have. I've found that allowing for the fact that there are serious cultural, class, race, religious, etc, issues tied into birth and mothering, it's best if I keep a gentle advocate's stance. I'm not going to change anyone's mind by telling them theya re wrong and arguing my case or making them feel guilty. I am able to provide information to people when they are ready to hear it and help them enact changes or different choices in the future. I hope you think about it.
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#90 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 01:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think this statement comes form a pretty privileged place. An extremely large number of women in this country (US, I assume you're here as well) do not have access to information. A single mother on welfare working 12 hour shifts needs the few hours of waking time she has not working to be the the child she already has. She doesn't even have time to read if someone handed her concise reading material with everything she needed to know, let alone the fact that she may not even have the reading comprehension to do it.

Again, I get really uncomfortable when people dictate what women have an ethical obligation to do.

You're right that many women do not have as much information at their access as I might have. THAT is why I think that homebirth (as a safer option than the current hospital set-up) should be the general standard of care. Then if women DID research more or decide for whatever reason that they WANTED a hospital birth, they could do that, but for a normal pregnancy and birth the standard would be homebirth.

I am perfectly comfortable saying that all women (in fact all people) have an ethical obligation to do their best to protect their children. That is simple biology.

-Angela
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