Pro-homebirth risk ethics - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 03:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by liseux
This thread is over the top subjective and without real facts to back it up. Which, I guess is the point.

Comments like this, "I remember women having babies in the 'groovy hippy commune' because everyone else did, only to be in labor for days because they could not let go and have the baby." Applejuice
So now a woman who labors for days can`t let go and have the baby? Sounds like that woman must be a total idiot, if she was a perfect informed homebirthing goddess who trusted her body then what would it take, 3 hours? This leads to the kind of high school mentality that keeps women judging each other and keeps us drinking the HATORADE. There are women on this board who felt sad that they missed out b/c they had short labors. There are people who have healthy babies born in waterbirths that are pissed b/c they forgot to drink their special tea and light their candles. This is crazy to me and one thing about a lot of hospital birthers is most of them are not constantly comparing their experiences and outdoing each other.

Other comments like there aren`t interventions in hb or that OB`s are like bottom feeders, I think its obvious that anecdotal evidence is only acceptable in this discussion if it supports the original premise. If you have anecdotal evidence that shows that even smart women go the hospital or that not all OB`s suck, well, don`t mention it. How about real facts?
Yeah, many, many women have prodromal labor because of malpositioning, amongst other things. I think saying someone "couldn't let go" is a judgement I'd like to avoid.
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#122 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 03:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SunRayeMomi
Allow me to quote myself, since I know my other post was so frickin long I bet no one read it:

It happens

Allow me to quote myself as well.
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Originally Posted by Mamma Mia
I think we know that mothers *can* and do protect their babies from circumcision in the hositals and free formula only gets to babies if their mothers give it to them or allow hospital staff to. I'm sure someone around here has heard a horror story, but almost all of the time, if a mother chooses not to give formula or circ it doesn't happen.
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#123 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 03:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna
All hospital birthers that I know personally have done NO research on out of hospital birth. None. Zip. Zilch. I'm sure that there are many that HAVE researched their options, but I don't think that I would be out of line to say that MOST (51% or better) women in the US who birth in the hospital have not researched any alternatives. THAT is a shame in my mind (and IMO, unethical, as I believe that we are obligated to do our best to make ethical choices and to do so we must search out information on those choices)

I'm sure that there are uneducated homebirthers- I even met one of those. IMO that is just as unethical as uneducated hospital birthers.
[However, I would venture that MOST (again 51%) homebirthers in the US have made a researched decision, as it is not the default decision]

hmmm, interesting conclusion.

Perhaps what is unethical is not the choice of birth-place, but the lack of research/thought that goes into such a choice.

-Angela
I highly doubt that you don't know a single hospital birther who has done ANY research on hospital birth. Just because they didn't read your info, doesn't mean they didn't do research. Most pregnant women birthing in the hospital know if they have L&D rooms ro seperate rooms, what the basic policies are, and find out about any issue that's important to them. I'm a little shocked that you know so many women who conflict with your values so much.
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#124 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 03:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mamma Mia
Yeah, many, many women have prodromal labor because of malpositioning, amongst other things. I think saying someone "couldn't let go" is a judgement I'd like to avoid.
No, I only told you part of the story.

The groovy hippy commune had a thing for singing and chanting. Everytime they did that, her labor slowed down. That is a sign something is not working. She was in active labor for five days, when she finally delivered, her pupils very were dialated, her labia was flared outward and she was drained. The baby did fine. The mother was completely exhausted of energy and the most telling sign was that she was unable to care for the baby herself for nearly eight weeks; she was in bed mostly for the baby's first three months.

Obviously something should have been done to help the mother rest and progress, and not let the situation drag on.

I was there, and I think I know a little bit better what was going on. If any woman felt better being in the hospital, then they should be there, and not anywhere else.

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#125 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 03:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna
I'm glad you brought up the section rate. I meant to earlier. Around here it's even higher than that, especially in the city. When I ran individual hospitals only 2 came anywhere near the national average (TX is above the national average also) But not only that, most hospitals were above 30%. Several were at 40%. One is rumored to be near 50%. Given that WHO says that maternal and infant health is at issue above 10%, is it ethical to birth in a hospital with a 30% section rate? What about 50%?
I wanted to touch on this. I gave birth to my first (and only, so far) in a hospital that had a 30% section rate. We had gone on a hospital tour early in our pregnancy and simply did not know which questions we should ask. I read What to Expect while you're expecting and it didn't have the questions in it that I should have asked.

It wasn't until I took Bradley classes that I actually began to question the care that I was receiving.

We went on another tour of our hospital at 34 weeks and asked the nurses about the C/S rates, epidural rates, procedures for Rh- moms, the ability to eat and drink during labor, etc. The lady who gives the tours at the hospital said that the hospital encouraged moms to take the virtual tour online rather than come to see the hospital in person. She didn't have the answers to our questions so we had to talk to a nurse. When asked about the C/S rates she said it was 30%, but then hastily added that the only reason it was so high was because they didn't allow VBACs anymore. My dh and I were a bit horrifed at that. This was my first experience in learning that women were actually forced into surgery because thay had no other option.

We went over our birth plan with my OB at our next visit. He's a very cheerful and gegarious person and he frowned before he even read it. Most of the stuff on there he agreed to but I learned at that visit that he did not trust birth to be anything but dangerous. For instance he insisted that I have an IV. He warned that if I eat in labor that I might throw up. and so on.

At the time I didn't feel comfortable switching providers so late in my pregnancy. I don't feel that it was ethically wrong of me do do so based on my experience at the time. I had only heard horror stories about birth. I thought that's just how birth had to be.

My birth with my dd was not bad at all. Luckily my regular OB was on vacation during the birth and the on call OB was more supportive than he was.

I'm planning a home birth when we get pg with our next one and I made the mistake of telling my SIL this. Her ds was born via emergency c/s due to iatrogenic distress and she believes her son was saved by her doctors. I can privately think he would have been safer at home but I respect her decisions about birth and her choice not to VBAC #2. But she has no problems whatsoever in telling me that I'd be putting myself and my baby in danger. I think it is unethical not to respect someone elses informed decsions.

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#126 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Mamma Mia
I highly doubt that you don't know a single hospital birther who has done ANY research on hospital birth. Just because they didn't read your info, doesn't mean they didn't do research. Most pregnant women birthing in the hospital know if they have L&D rooms ro seperate rooms, what the basic policies are, and find out about any issue that's important to them. I'm a little shocked that you know so many women who conflict with your values so much.
What I said was that no hospital birther I know has done any research on OUT of hospital birth. And that is true.

-Angela
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#127 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 03:58 PM
 
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How about real facts?
Refer to the Dr. Lewis Mehl study done in 1978 of home -vs- hospital births and outcomes. It is still the gold standard of home/hospital birth comparisons.
http://www.gentlebirth.org/format/myths.html
http://www.storknet.com/cubbies/home...irthsafety.htm
http://www.texasmidwives.com/Safety_stats.htm - 14k -
www.mothering.com/articles/ pregnancy_birth/homebirth/no-place.html -
www.compleatmother.com/homebirth/hb_safety.htm
www.naturalfamilyhome.com/birth.html -

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#128 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 04:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna
What I said was that no hospital birther I know has done any research on OUT of hospital birth. And that is true.

-Angela
Yes, it is true. Doctors, etal, really do not care about out of hospital outcomes.

Drs. believe in what they are doing, so why investigate anything else?

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#129 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 04:04 PM
 
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This was my first experience in learning that women were actually forced into surgery because thay had no other option.
That was your first experience?

You should know that "once a section, always a section" has been the dictum of the obstetrical community since 1916.

I think technology and surgical technique have improved since then.

The problem is between the surgeons' ears.

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But she has no problems whatsoever in telling me that I'd be putting myself and my baby in danger. I think it is unethical not to respect someone elses informed decsions.
Every family has one of those...or we are related.

I hope your next baby is born happily at home... easy labor/happy baby vibes your way.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#130 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 04:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice
You should know that "once a section, always a section" has been the dictum of the obstetrical community since 1916.

I think technology and surgical technique have improved since then.

The problem is between the surgeons' ears.
I think that our lawsuit happy society factors pretty heavily into why many doctors and hospitals "do not allow" VBACS. With the way that malpractice insurance is skyrocketing for OB/GYNs, and how many people will file lawsuits will he, nil he, the OB/GYNs and hospitals are probably not supporting VBACs more because they don't want to be liable if something goes wrong, whether it's their fault or not.
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#131 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 04:45 PM
 
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Let's not generalize each other, Mamas. We women have enough to work against without proving to each other that our decisions prove we are informed or not.

I think it is just a basic human trait that most humans want to follow a trusted leader and resist thinking for themselves. I believe there are psych profiles/graphs to back this up-saw one at my counselor's office a while back.

So, of course, the birthing habits of American women fall into this...

I mean, um, look at our last election????

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Originally Posted by liseux
This thread is over the top subjective and without real facts to back it up. Which, I guess is the point.

Comments like this, "I remember women having babies in the 'groovy hippy commune' because everyone else did, only to be in labor for days because they could not let go and have the baby." Applejuice
So now a woman who labors for days can`t let go and have the baby? Sounds like that woman must be a total idiot, if she was a perfect informed homebirthing goddess who trusted her body then what would it take, 3 hours? This leads to the kind of high school mentality that keeps women judging each other and keeps us drinking the HATORADE. There are women on this board who felt sad that they missed out b/c they had short labors. There are people who have healthy babies born in waterbirths that are pissed b/c they forgot to drink their special tea and light their candles. This is crazy to me and one thing about a lot of hospital birthers is most of them are not constantly comparing their experiences and outdoing each other.

Other comments like there aren`t interventions in hb or that OB`s are like bottom feeders, I think its obvious that anecdotal evidence is only acceptable in this discussion if it supports the original premise. If you have anecdotal evidence that shows that even smart women go the hospital or that not all OB`s suck, well, don`t mention it. How about real facts?
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#132 of 181 Old 10-26-2005, 10:46 PM
 
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Applejuice, those are good links and I think they help the discussion. I never doubted the safety of homebirth although it is harder for me personally to get excited about it b/c I lost a baby due to complications from his homebirth. I know I would have had the same outcome in a hospital b/c it was just that bad. Yet so many hbirthers that I knew would tell me they were sorry to hear about what happened and then ask me as many questions as they could to figure out what I had done wrong. I felt this hb superiority at every turn and I can`t help it if I represent the horror story. Death still happens, hospital & hb rates are the same in those studies. I would be like you guys, (I used to be & I mean that respectfully), the one who believes every single woman should start out at home, if I had a good outcome. I would probably be trying to convince everyone I knew that my way was the best way if only I had a good outcome. Spending time in the hospital, seeing every single new baby coming into the nursery showed me a much bigger world and opened my mind to all different kinds of families.

I think facts are needed b/c it seemed like this thread was so tightly controlled, really random things were allowed to be discussed as long as the person talked the party line. But if someone disagreed with the original premise then other experiences she may have added were asked to not be added to the discussion.


I thought this was a good point from the first link, "And no research has been done that proves hospitals to be the safest places in which to give birth." I agree completely that instrument delivery, c/s etc is more likely in a hospital,first because its there and its not available at home and second, b/c most hb mamas are low risk, and healthier and more in tune than a hospital mama may be.


I think when you compare the US to Holland & Scandinavia that`s not the best comparison b/c those are countries that have a totally different way of taking care of their citizens. There isn`t the same poverty as here. A person there may get asylum and not be allowed to become a citizen but they will be treated very well by the Govt. Here anyone can basically become a citizen but will be working very hard in the meantime, getting very little help form the govt, living in poverty without health insurance. In Western Europe they also have a startlingly low birth rate and ours is huge in comparison. We have very varied populations of all different income levels and poorer people do not get the same care. That`s partly why our rates of c/s and other complications are higher. Many women in the US still have no prenatal care at all. I think there`s more factors involved in this picture than OB`s suck and women are uninformed.

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#133 of 181 Old 10-27-2005, 02:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by WC_hapamama
I think that our lawsuit happy society factors pretty heavily into why many doctors and hospitals "do not allow" VBACS.

IN our culture, if a doctor does a caesarean, he has done everything medically possible to "SAVE" that baby from the dangers of the birth process - "the valley of death". If the baby dies anyway, it is an act of G-d. But the doctor is free and clear of any legal malfeasance since a caesarean is the top of the line of all of the obstetrical procedures.

When a woman delivers by caesarean section, doctors say that she "delivers from above", as though there was something celestial or heavenly about the procedure.

The problem is that our society venerates the medical profession and the medical professionals have a G-d complex. This has to stop. Our culture, our mindset has to change before anything else changes.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#134 of 181 Old 10-27-2005, 02:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by liseux
... it is harder for me personally to get excited about it b/c I lost a baby due to complications from his homebirth.
I am sorry about the death of your child, and I hope you were allowed to properly grieve over the baby by your caretakers. I hope you were helped to understand how it happened and if it will repeat. Again, I am sorry. I had a baby sister die when I was young, but I have been spared this one sorrow in my life.

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I think when you compare the US to Holland & Scandinavia that`s not the best comparison b/c those are countries that have a totally different way of taking care of their citizens. There isn`t the same poverty as here. A person there may get asylum and not be allowed to become a citizen but they will be treated very well by the Govt. Here anyone can basically become a citizen but will be working very hard in the meantime, getting very little help form the govt, living in poverty without health insurance. In Western Europe they also have a startlingly low birth rate and ours is huge in comparison. We have very varied populations of all different income levels and poorer people do not get the same care. That`s partly why our rates of c/s and other complications are higher. Many women in the US still have no prenatal care at all. I think there`s more factors involved in this picture than OB`s suck and women are uninformed.
Europe has become very multicultural in the last forty years. There are many people there even in the Netherlands who are from the former colonies and the midwives are required to speak the languages of the people. In Sweden, there are many Nigerians. So there are many cultures. In the UK, the crumbling Empire invited the people in their colonies to England for a while, so there are many cultures there.

I agree there are more factors to consider. But our culture teaches us to trust professionals. We trust teachers to teach our children to read, we trust policemen to enforce the law, we trust firemen to put out the fire, we trust the pharmacist to give us information and the drugs we need, we trust EMTs to make snap judgements in times of emergencies, and we trust obstetricians to deliver a healthy baby and help the mother recover.

But they are all human like us and very fallable - they are just specially trained and WE NEED TO BE EDUCATED and INFORMED or we are hurting ourselves.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#135 of 181 Old 10-27-2005, 09:57 AM
 
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Applejuice, I agree with everything you said in your last post, especially about how most Americans view doctors.

I want to clarify that when I wrote about people getting asylum in European countries I meant the huge mix of people you do see in Europe. In Germany for example you can come from North Africa or Saudi Arabia or Turkey and get asylum and live very well (in comparison to a similar situation here) and get excellent health care. Most of the people (yes, a very multicultural mix now) will never become German citizens, but their children will. Many immigrants in Europe get such good care from the Govt that they don`t work b/c its more than they lived on while working in their homeland. I know lots of people who ended up in the US but had a transition time in Germany. Here, anyone can become a citizen but they will be super poor for awhile and working like crazy. So, my point was that in Europe, they have less babies and they get better care. There are hospitals here that are like baby factories and I think that affects the rates of complications also. I still think we should at least have a midwifery standard in hospitals, with women learning about the process as they go, and having hour long appointments if they prefer.

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#136 of 181 Old 10-27-2005, 11:37 AM
 
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Applejuice, thank you for your kind words about my son. The only reason I mention it in this thread is to illlustrate how weird it can be to be a hbirthing mama with a bad outcome, other hbirthers can be very insensitive and judgemental when the worst outcome can happen to any of us. There is an arrogance I see all the time, the whole "believe in yourself and nothing will happen". It seemed this thread was going in that holier than thou kind of direction so I wanted to speak up not for me, b/c I`ve had time to process and know that what happened wasn`t my fault, but for other mamas newer to loss. Hopefully we can all learn from each other and accept each other where we are.

In my case what happened could happen again & I became high risk so the hospital was my only option. Its very hard to face that when you`ve been totally against it for so long. The only way is to get totally involved in your care, learn as much as the doctors about yourself, stay alert and remember you are the consumer. There`s nothing unethical about that.

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#137 of 181 Old 10-27-2005, 03:25 PM
 
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I think it's difficult to talk about home vs. hospital as a matter of ethics (or morals) -- there are too many variables for each family.

However, what I do think is unethical in the system is when women feel they have to make a choice because other options are closed to them-- such as VBACs feeling like they have no choice but to go unassisted, because their hospitals have banned them and either there are no local mws who do them or by law the local mws can't (disclaimer-- I think unassisted is great for those who choose, but I don't think anyone should be looking at a situation where that is their only choice other than major abdominal surgery). I also think the way so-called "informed" choice is administered is unethical when it comes to birth matters, because the information is generally sorely lacking. In the end, I think what choices are available and how they are presented are the bigger questions than what women are choosing.
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#138 of 181 Old 10-27-2005, 05:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna
Two topics from liseux's post- I will address one at a time.

Okay- is there any place that one would choose to birth that would be unethical? Would it be unethical to CHOOSE to birth on a trapeeze, while swinging without a net? Of course. Then is there a case where it COULD be unethical to choose to birth in a hospital? Of course. For example, you KNOW for a fact that the baby will be taken from you without reason and treated harshly and subjected to a serious chance of infection and there is no other reason to be in said hospital, then yes, that choice WOULD be unethical.

-Angela
Although the closest hospital to me has a family birthing wing and they never take your baby out of your room.
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#139 of 181 Old 10-27-2005, 05:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SunRayeMomi

I feel I am blessed to have been brought up in a home that stressed health and informed choice. We believe that things such as childbirth don't need medical intervention… but things such as broken bones do. When it comes to being raised a certain way, I think it's normal to expect people that weren't raised this way to assume chidbirth is a medical event. Sometimes though, they do some reading and come across homebirth and decide that it makes more sense. More power to them, either way, as long as they do in fact do that research. That's the key.

Do I think it is unethical to choose hospital birth over homebirth? No I wouldn't use that word. I do however believe that people who choose things such as elective cesarean and formula feeding without atleast trying to breastfeed first are most likely doing so without properly researching their decisions first. Notice I said most likely, meaning this is not an umbrella statement. No statement such as this can ever be true for everyone, so it helps to not take it too literally. But, for things so important as how you deliver and feed your newborn, if you don't atleast do some soul-searching and research first, then it is a little reckless.

I myself was discriminated against at the hospital when I had to be transported after delivery for stitches. They went so far as to have CPS try and schedule a visit at my home. Unacceptable. I was so proud of myself for having just given birth naturally, without putting my daughter into uneccesary exposure to drugs or forceps or vacuum extraction, etc. And what do I get? A visit from CPS because they think I was being reckless for having a homebirth! I tend to think it's reckless to go into the hospital intending to have an epidural from the start or intending to have a cesarean for unmedical reasons. But I don't see CPS knocking on their doors…… so why mine? I know of children that were circumcised because their parents didn't see the little box to mark if you DONT want your son to be circed. Why is it you have to specifically opt out of an uneccesary surgery?
I agree with your point about birthing jiving with how you were raised. It's so easy for me to choose to home birth because that's what I know. That's what I've been exposed to all my life and that's part of my philosophy on health and birth.
Also, I had a hospital transfer to get stitched after the birth of my first child. Due to the fact that I was a homebirth transfer, the on-call surgeon took too long to come and then I had some complications and needed to spend the night. At least the hospital was really good to me, my son and partner spent the night there with us and no one contacted CPS. Sorry you had to deal with that
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#140 of 181 Old 10-28-2005, 06:18 PM
 
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I think it is unethical not to respect someone elses informed decisions.

I also have opinions that I express privately to myself, and when I was pg I did not appreciate the comments I got when I told ppl I was homebirthing. The thing that irked me the most was that these were people I knew to have never done a stitch of research on the subject. How did they then feel they knew what was best for me? So I keep my mouth shut nowadays, unless I know the person I am talking to respects my knowledge enough to take it to heart.

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#141 of 181 Old 10-29-2005, 04:32 AM
 
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I do not know one woman who had a hospital birth (including myself) who made a truly informed decision. I know women who think they did but they are mistaken. All the info needs to be out there and easily available to everyone. How can you weigh the risk and benifits when you don't truly know what they are?
I've read over this entire thread, but I can't get over this. Do you honestly believe that women who think they've made an informed decision which culminated in a hospital birth are all mistaken? Seriously?! That's got to be one of the most judgemental, obnoxious things that I've ever read. Just because they came to a different conclusion from yours, they're mistaken? But you couldn't possibly be wrong, could you, there's no way that anyone would choose a hospital birth after truly knowing what the risks and benefits are. Please.

Do I think it's unethical to choose a hospital birth? Absolutely not. I think it's sad that most women don't have the resources to make a different decision, and that's certainly unethical but who's really to blame-- doctors, schools, television, the government? We can blame everyone but ourselves for this (because we are never wrong, we know what's best for everyone), can't we?

The biggest ethical crisis I see when it comes to birth is people who decide that they are activists because they had homebirths. I think that if the way pregnancy and childbirth are typically managed in this country is, by your own standard, unethical then it is at least as unethical for you to fail in your duty: diseminating information to those who need it, and helping women to make truly informed decisions. It's damn near impossible for most "birth activists" to listen long enough to find out what's needed, and that's really depressing to me.

Is the c-section rate "too high" at your local hospital? Why is that? Who can change it, if not the patients? Hospitals are businesses, they're out to make money and if women demand a different standard of care from them, they will get it. Is homebirth safer than hospital birth? Under what circumstances? Why don't people know this, and what can be done to change it? What circumstances would, in your mind, justify or necessitate obstetrical care? Why and when? If that's not consistant with real life, then do something to change it.

I think that these discussions are unethical, and I think that they're a step backwards for most people. They don't help people to make changes in their communities, and they don't foster a sense of community with other women who are in different situations but need the same information (i.e. they're pregnant). They cause the divide to grow wider-- people who believe that homebirth is the only possible informed decision retreat farther from the mainstream (and, thus, from the women who need to learn about their positions) than ever, and people who believe that hospital birth can be, in some/many/all circumstances a perfectly reasonable, informed choice are made to feel, once again, that they are irresponsible/immoral/unethical/generally rotten people. Irony of ironies, it's the women who are willing to consider the possibility that hospital birth might be warranted who are the most likely to change things in the birthing culture of America. How? By listening, by paying attention, by bringing things to the attention of the medical establishment from which homebirthers have so thorough disaffected themselves.

Doesn't that upset you enough to want to change things?

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
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#142 of 181 Old 10-29-2005, 06:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eilonwy
I've read over this entire thread, but I can't get over this. Do you honestly believe that women who think they've made an informed decision which culminated in a hospital birth are all mistaken? Seriously?! That's got to be one of the most judgemental, obnoxious things that I've ever read. Just because they came to a different conclusion from yours, they're mistaken? But you couldn't possibly be wrong, could you, there's no way that anyone would choose a hospital birth after truly knowing what the risks and benefits are. Please.

Do I think it's unethical to choose a hospital birth? Absolutely not. I think it's sad that most women don't have the resources to make a different decision, and that's certainly unethical but who's really to blame-- doctors, schools, television, the government? We can blame everyone but ourselves for this (because we are never wrong, we know what's best for everyone), can't we?

The biggest ethical crisis I see when it comes to birth is people who decide that they are activists because they had homebirths. I think that if the way pregnancy and childbirth are typically managed in this country is, by your own standard, unethical then it is at least as unethical for you to fail in your duty: diseminating information to those who need it, and helping women to make truly informed decisions. It's damn near impossible for most "birth activists" to listen long enough to find out what's needed, and that's really depressing to me.

Is the c-section rate "too high" at your local hospital? Why is that? Who can change it, if not the patients? Hospitals are businesses, they're out to make money and if women demand a different standard of care from them, they will get it. Is homebirth safer than hospital birth? Under what circumstances? Why don't people know this, and what can be done to change it? What circumstances would, in your mind, justify or necessitate obstetrical care? Why and when? If that's not consistant with real life, then do something to change it.

I think that these discussions are unethical, and I think that they're a step backwards for most people. They don't help people to make changes in their communities, and they don't foster a sense of community with other women who are in different situations but need the same information (i.e. they're pregnant). They cause the divide to grow wider-- people who believe that homebirth is the only possible informed decision retreat farther from the mainstream (and, thus, from the women who need to learn about their positions) than ever, and people who believe that hospital birth can be, in some/many/all circumstances a perfectly reasonable, informed choice are made to feel, once again, that they are irresponsible/immoral/unethical/generally rotten people. Irony of ironies, it's the women who are willing to consider the possibility that hospital birth might be warranted who are the most likely to change things in the birthing culture of America. How? By listening, by paying attention, by bringing things to the attention of the medical establishment from which homebirthers have so thorough disaffected themselves.

Doesn't that upset you enough to want to change things?


And I am a homebirth activist, radical type. ITA with this post! Passionate and well written. Magnifico.
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#143 of 181 Old 10-29-2005, 11:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eilonwy
I've read over this entire thread, but I can't get over this. Do you honestly believe that women who think they've made an informed decision which culminated in a hospital birth are all mistaken? Seriously?! That's got to be one of the most judgemental, obnoxious things that I've ever read. Just because they came to a different conclusion from yours, they're mistaken? But you couldn't possibly be wrong, could you, there's no way that anyone would choose a hospital birth after truly knowing what the risks and benefits are. Please.
First off thanks for calling me obnoxious, nice. Secondly if you would have read my post w/o judging you could have clearly seen I was talking about the women I know, not ALL women. Most women I know who had hospital births didin't think about it at all and those that did didn't think to look into any alternatives to a hospital birth, only looked into what procedures are done and if they wanted them. THAT IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. NO WHERE DID I SAY MY EXPERIENCE WAS UNIVERSAL.

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#144 of 181 Old 10-29-2005, 11:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sheacoby
What is unethical is the fact we aren't getting the truth. The medical establishment does not give us all the facts, they actually give us very few. Women are not making informed decisions because it's pretty hard in this culture to become informed. I do not know one woman who had a hospital birth (including myself) who made a truly informed decision. I know women who think they did but they are mistaken. All the info needs to be out there and easily available to everyone. How can you weigh the risk and benifits when you don't truly know what they are?
Taking things out of context and then putting your spin on it is also quite obnoxious! This how I see it, if you have experienced something different then post about it but you don't have to knock me personally or try to discredit my experiences.

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#145 of 181 Old 10-29-2005, 02:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sheacoby
First off thanks for calling me obnoxious, nice. Secondly if you would have read my post w/o judging you could have clearly seen I was talking about the women I know, not ALL women.
And if you had read mine, you would have noted that it was the *statement* that I referred to as obnoxious, and not you. Yes, you did say "all the women that I know (not most, as you later assert)" but you went on in other posts to assert that you believe that no woman would ever choose a hospital birth if they made a truly informed decision. It was an attack on your position, not your character.

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Most women I know who had hospital births didin't think about it at all and those that did didn't think to look into any alternatives to a hospital birth, only looked into what procedures are done and if they wanted them. THAT IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. NO WHERE DID I SAY MY EXPERIENCE WAS UNIVERSAL.
You strongly imply that your experience is, if not universal, the norm. Either way, I don't see it as a helpful statement to make. It strikes me, personally, as devisive and counterproductive. I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear about that, but I was posting at 3 in the morning with a screaming baby on my lap. I'll try to be more careful in the future.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
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#146 of 181 Old 10-29-2005, 04:21 PM
 
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Can I remind you all to please keep this conversation within the parameters of the UA.
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#147 of 181 Old 10-29-2005, 04:33 PM
 
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I changed ALL to MOST because I realized later that I haven't actually talked about this issue with ALL the women I know. Most of them but not all. So the ones I have discussed it with do fall into the category I already mentioned.
I think you are wanting to read more into my post than what is actually there. I didn't strongly imply anything, that's all you. I'm not exactly sure why you have called my post out to be most offended by and I'm pretty sure you are not among the women I know, so my post have nothing personally to do with you. If you really took in everything I was expressing you'd have realized I don't fault women for not being informed our birthing culture sets it up to be hard for us to be. I even included myself among the uninformed.
I never said there are no informed women who who birth in hospitasl but I do believe a lot of informed women choose home births. That however does not mean if an informed woman chooses a hospital birth she can't truly be informed.

Bottom line this is how I feel
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheacoby
All the info needs to be out there and easily available to everyone.

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#148 of 181 Old 10-29-2005, 04:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mamma Mia
Allow me to quote myself as well.

I am confused. Are we supposed to do some circle-dance here or something where we just keep quoting eachother into infinity?

~Sara, WAHSingMomi to girls R and AV, S.O.A.R. Scout Leader and Homeschooling In Detroit Blogger

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#149 of 181 Old 10-29-2005, 04:57 PM
 
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people who believe that homebirth is the only possible informed decision retreat farther from the mainstream (and, thus, from the women who need to learn about their positions) than ever,
well stated

~Sara, WAHSingMomi to girls R and AV, S.O.A.R. Scout Leader and Homeschooling In Detroit Blogger

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#150 of 181 Old 10-29-2005, 06:43 PM
 
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Taking things out of context and then putting your spin on it is also quite obnoxious! This how I see it, if you have experienced something different then post about it but you don't have to knock me personally or try to discredit my experiences.
Once again, I never "knocked you personally." Nor did I try to discredit your experiences-- what I said was that the statement "I know women who think that they made informed decisions but they're wrong" was obnoxious. It would have been more fair and perhaps more accurate to say that it was extremely judgemental, but at three a.m. it just felt like a slap in the face. I felt sorry for all the women you were lumping together with that statement, and it just felt very, very wrong. Once again, I apologize if you misunderstood, but I was absolutely not making any attacks on your character.

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Originally Posted by Sheacoby
I think you are wanting to read more into my post than what is actually there. I didn't strongly imply anything, that's all you. I'm not exactly sure why you have called my post out to be most offended by and I'm pretty sure you are not among the women I know, so my post have nothing personally to do with you.
Who says I took it personally? I'm sorry, but that statement was very judgemental and was extremely offensive to me, but not on a personal level-- I felt offended for all women. It really sounded like you were saying that it's absolutely impossible for a woman to be truly informed and educated and still decide to birth in a hospital. You did say later that it wouldn't necessarily be unethical for a woman to make that decision if they were informed, but went on to reiterate that most women aren't making informed decisions.

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If you really took in everything I was expressing you'd have realized I don't fault women for not being informed our birthing culture sets it up to be hard for us to be. I even included myself among the uninformed.
I never said there are no informed women who who birth in hospitasl but I do believe a lot of informed women choose home births. That however does not mean if an informed woman chooses a hospital birth she can't truly be informed.
What you said was:

Quote:
  • "I don't think many women are actually making an informed decision , is that unethical I'm not sure."
  • "I think a lot of women make their birthing decisions based on fear and not facts."
  • "My issue is that very few women are actually making informed choices....Why do a lot of women feel safer in the hospital, why do many believe the hospital is safer? Why do so many women let doctors choose for them?"
In short, we're not actually disagreeing on the fundamental problem, which is one of information. I never said that we were. For the last time, I said that one statement that you made struck me as obnoxious. I don't think that I'm reading too much into that, it just came across as extremely rude to me. I did not make any assertions about your character, or even about the rest of your posts, just that one statement. I'm through apologizing about it. I already said that I could have chosen my words better, and quite frankly I think that you could have done the same. That's all. Who's blowing things out of proportion?

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
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