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#61 of 73 Old 01-19-2006, 05:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PerennialMom
I don't buy antectodal evidence. I find antectodal evidence really annoying.

I wouldn't have a problem *IF* other alternatives of birthing were embraced as wonderfully as elective and unecessary c-sections are. The ACOG and insurance companies don't embrace VBACs or homebirths. They've made sure to put good midwives out of business through bureacracy, not from legitimate studies that PROVE homebirth to be safe. A baby dies on a midwife's watch and it's an atrocity and makes headlines. A baby dies in a hospital on a doctor's watch and it's unfortunate, making only the obituaries. Where's the logic?

Why is it so much harder for a woman to choose a natural, peaceful birth and it's glorified and so much easier to walk into an OB office and say "I'd like a c-section" and pick your date all the while being patted on the back. Tell them you don't want faulty prenatal tests or an epi and you're looked at like an alien from another planet....a hassle for the nursing staff and a liabilty for not cooperating.

It's a big fat crock of poo poo.
And that's the part of the whole debate that bugs me too.
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#62 of 73 Old 01-19-2006, 06:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rainbow
I really believe elective c-sections to be a step in the process of women reclaiming the birth process. Typically substantial change in history tends to go to an extreme, peak, and setlle back down.

Wealthy women went from hiring wet nurses [breastfeeding being only for the poor], then later to feeding their babies themselves without the breast [bottles], to a peak in formula usage, to it settling back down and women now having individual control over their option of feeding. Breastfeeding, I would guess now being on the slow rise.

While I prefered not to have a csection, I can support that women are taking contol over their births as a step in change.
You know, I am not going to get into the rest of this thread, but I wanted to thank you for this insight. I have never thought about it this way for some reason, but this really makes sense to me. Thank you for giving me some insight into the way women think that is so different from myself.
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#63 of 73 Old 01-19-2006, 11:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LoveChild421
I agree. I think of the elective C-section movement as being a reaction to the degrading and totally unappealing way typical hospital births go.
Yes, absolutely, that is such a big big point. I personally don't fancy being told ever again my life I should stop screaming since it's not like I'm the only woman on earth who's ever given birth.

Thanks, I knew that.
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#64 of 73 Old 01-19-2006, 11:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NYCVeg
Doctors have a responsibility to REALLY educate their patients on risks of elective surgery, both to themselves and their babies and not paint c/s as an "easier" solution to childbirth (which is what the "too posh to push" idea promotes).

Forget doctors, I have found them to no source of knowledge. They can't even read NFP charts and the doctor doing my ultrasound today asked in a tone that could have worried someone without the knowledge I have " are you sure about your dates?", a question that would have been unnecessary with a look on my chart.( it showed ovulation 2 weeks later than the textbookcycle)

I sometimes feel doctors just recite old wive's tales :

Sorry for rambling, but it had to be said. I have many more examples.
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#65 of 73 Old 01-19-2006, 11:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ~*~MamaJava~*~
This is kind of crazy, that we are even discussing this on MDC. It's a natural family living site...hence...natural birth. I'm just surprised, but I guess dialogue is always good so we're not just in our little bubble

Isn't mothering also about women's rights and their empowerment?
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#66 of 73 Old 02-06-2006, 09:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerennialMom
I don't buy antectodal evidence. I find antectodal evidence really annoying.

I wouldn't have a problem *IF* other alternatives of birthing were embraced as wonderfully as elective and unecessary c-sections are. The ACOG and insurance companies don't embrace VBACs or homebirths. They've made sure to put good midwives out of business through bureacracy, not from legitimate studies that PROVE homebirth to be safe. A baby dies on a midwife's watch and it's an atrocity and makes headlines. A baby dies in a hospital on a doctor's watch and it's unfortunate, making only the obituaries. Where's the logic?

Why is it so much harder for a woman to choose a natural, peaceful birth and it's glorified and so much easier to walk into an OB office and say "I'd like a c-section" and pick your date all the while being patted on the back. Tell them you don't want faulty prenatal tests or an epi and you're looked at like an alien from another planet....a hassle for the nursing staff and a liabilty for not cooperating.

It's a big fat crock of poo poo.

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#67 of 73 Old 02-06-2006, 11:36 PM
 
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I'm just shocked. How on earth can anyone look at an elective c/s as "taking control of their birth" ? Where is the control in being straped down, your body made numb from narcotics and just laying there while another person cuts your child out of your body? How is that empowering?
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#68 of 73 Old 02-07-2006, 03:50 PM
 
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I can see how choosing a primary c/s would bring a feeling of control to a woman who cannot tolerate the sense of submission and violation that the management of a typical hospital vaginal birth can bring... and I also understand feeling that way about ERC. I think that the "empowerment" part of an ERC is simply the difference between making a choice and having no choice. When it becomes unacceptable in a woman's mind to risk enduring again the violation of being pressured, lied to, being left uninformed, coerced and sometimes even acted on without consent at all, then having the control of making a choice that is honored can be a really big deal.

One of the most valuable things my awesome therapist told me ages ago was that regardless of the info a person is aware of, they will do what they are able to at the time. We are all at our own place on our path, and we do what we can. If psychologically we could make a different choice, we would. It's not productive to look at women who are at places on the path we may have travelled already, and rant about how wrong they are. It might be productive to simply tell our stories about how we moved from that place on the path, and let it go.

At the same time, I believe women are not getting the full picture from their care providers and that needs to change. Also, we need to resume the chain of support and information about normal birth that has been lost over the generations of medically managed birth. Preparing the next generations to claim and insist on normal birth is probably one of the most effective things we can do to bring the pendulum back to center.

My response to the "too posh to push" set is not to rail against them, but to point to the circumstances that led them to that place as the real problem. It seems to me that women choosing c/s as a way of claiming control over birth only makes glaringly, horribly clear that women have a sense of how badly their rights are trampled in the medical model of obstetrical care but don't know any other way to regain their control of the situation. Almost like a hostage who begins to side with their captors in order to be able to regain a sense of control of the impossible situation they are in.
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#69 of 73 Old 02-07-2006, 10:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by velcromom
My response to the "too posh to push" set is not to rail against them, but to point to the circumstances that led them to that place as the real problem. It seems to me that women choosing c/s as a way of claiming control over birth only makes glaringly, horribly clear that women have a sense of how badly their rights are trampled in the medical model of obstetrical care but don't know any other way to regain their control of the situation. Almost like a hostage who begins to side with their captors in order to be able to regain a sense of control of the impossible situation they are in.
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#70 of 73 Old 02-08-2006, 04:19 AM
 
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I really find downplaying the RISKS of major, unnecessary surgery to be not only foolish, but irresponsible.


http://www.childbirth.org/section/risks.html
http://www.pregnancy-info.net/repeat_cesareans.html
http://www.americanpregnancy.org/lab...reanrisks.html
http://www.maternitywise.org/mw/topi.../evidence.html

Quote:
Cesarean birth is major surgery, and, as with other surgical procedures, risks are involved. The estimated risk of a woman dying after a cesarean birth is less than one in 2,500 (the risk of death after a vaginal birth is less than one in 10,000). These are estimated risks for a large population of women. Individual medical conditions such as some heart problems may make the risk of vaginal birth higher than cesarean birth.

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#71 of 73 Old 02-08-2006, 11:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by artgoddess
I'm just shocked. How on earth can anyone look at an elective c/s as "taking control of their birth" ? Where is the control in being straped down, your body made numb from narcotics and just laying there while another person cuts your child out of your body? How is that empowering?

THANK YOU!!! The decision isn't the only thing you should control - but the entire process!
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#72 of 73 Old 02-08-2006, 01:02 PM
 
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I don't see how this is about choice at all. It is unethical for a health care provider to provide or promote primary elective cesarean. It may be your choice to hack yourself open for the sake of convenience at home, but to hire somone else to do it brings their responsibilities into the matter as well. And it is a doctor's responsibility to first do no harm. It is too great a risk to choose cesarean without medical indication (and not the kind where they futz the diagnosis as is so often the case).

VBAC should be standard rather than forbidden. The stats I've heard show that about 75% of moms can have a successful VBAC.

anna kiss partner to jon radical mama to aleks (8/02) and bastian (5/05)
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#73 of 73 Old 02-08-2006, 02:14 PM
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It seems this thread, or rather the turn the thread has taken in its focus of discussion, is in need of administrational review. So that I can manage to do that without more posts being added to the discussion pot, I am closing it.

Though I have not reviewed the entire discussion, I will say this: MDC is not an online community place for advocating elective cesarean delivery. Any member who desires to post in this manner should take their posts to another forum that welcomes such advocacy. Mothering does not.


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