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#31 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 02:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by boongirl
It is a little bit mean to draw these conclusions. I am sure they knew about the risks but like most people in a hospital they were focusing more on the positive effects - they were going to have a baby. Having had a medically necessary (like my baby would have died without it) induction, I can tell you that there are times that they are necessary. The induction and the pitocin and the epidural were not the problem - the lack of basic sanitation was the problem. This woman was basically killed by a stupid anesthesiologist who did not follow hygiene standards and her death was furthered by the nursing staff who did not follow up with her care.
Why are you so sure they knew the risks? Does their video tape actually show the anesthesiologist EXPLAINING the risks, the mother giving informed consent. Or is it just, "you can do it with or without pain, you choose". Of course the anesthesiologist is at fault, but some fault does lie with the patient herself. I think if her induction was actually necessary, the article would have said as much and the hospital would be using that to cover themselves. I think that the birth culture in this country could be changed if women took control of their own health! Yes doctors are a huge problem, but if women didn't go along with it, they couldn't continue to do what they do.

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#32 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 03:14 PM
 
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The problem is that even when "proper hygeine procedures" are followed, the fact is that hospitals are germ-ridden, and many of the germs are antibiotic resistant. I don't think this is a fault of the people who work at hospitals - it's a natural consequence of what hospitals are, and it is why they should be used as sparingly as possible. I really don't believe that hospitals are dirty, just that they are, by virtue of being a place where sick people congregate, going to have germs no matter what we do. It's hubris, and folly, to think we can change that. Yes, there are many things we can do to minimize the risks, but I don't think that being in a hospital is ever going to be as safe, infection wise, as not being in a hospital, whether we're talking about birth specifically or not.

The nursing shortage is also obviously a problem in this story. As one of the family members said, it's likely that if even one thing about what happened had changed, the woman wouldn't have died. So we can discuss the "what ifs" 'til the cows come home, and come up with many many ideas about what could have improved this situation and birth or hospitals in general, but the truth is it was just a really crappy combination of factors. Bad luck.

And bad luck happens. More likely in a hospital, but it happens sometimes no matter what or where.
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#33 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 03:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wifeandmom
You find what hard to believe?
That "you are WAY more likely to die during an uncomplicated, unmedicated, routine vaginal delivery than you are to die from placement of an epidural."

There is nothing in the numbers that indicates that this 1 in 10,000 refers to uncomplicated, unmedicated routine vaginal delivery.
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#34 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 04:51 PM
 
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I am so happy this story was on NBC last night. It was right on, and the information needs to be out there. What struck me sadly last night was either the husband or the woman's father said - if just one choice had made differently... Yes, perhaps that one choice should have been not to go to the hospital? Or not to agree to an induction? All parties are at fault. There were way too many mistakes made - BUT it was a very typical scenario - that's the real point of the story!

Other issues were the hospitals complete unwillingness to accept any blame and the fact that 99,000 people die of hospital related infections every year - a risk taken just by checking in to a hopsital!

BTW you can get an infection at home - mostly happens when you interfer with nature, like having AROM - other risk factors are prolonged labor, prolonged rupture of membranes, and VEs. I had all the risk factors. Let me tell you, it's not fun to have to go to the hospital 2 days after your homebirth, because of an uterine infection. In this state where your body is being asked to do different if not difficult work, it is clearly a good idea to not add to its stress load by introducing germs and foreign substances - the more you do, the more risk you take.
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#35 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 05:01 PM
 
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#36 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 05:22 PM
 
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This is so horribly sad. But it has less to do with a hospital birth or the epidural than it has to do w/a clearly understaffed hospital. To me, THAT is the scariest thing. And the staff's unresponsiveness, whether through laziness or simply busy-ness. The medical system in this country is getting scary.

I could never have a home birth due to a medical condition and past history, so it isn't even something I think about. For me, it's too scary to consider, even if I could find a midwife willing to touch me
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#37 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 06:32 PM
 
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Huh? They gave her a deadly infection - via epidural needle. The understaffing is bad, but geesh, it is not excusable to admister infection directly to the spinal cord and then act like epidurals are just a safe and normal part of birth for 60% of American women! Hospital birth, epidurals, and induction are all very much the problem! Yes, it's bad they didn't clean up their mistake due to understaffing/poor management - but the mistake is bad too!!
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#38 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 07:02 PM
 
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This is just horrible...and I feel so much for her family and that little boy...

I was in perfect health, happy, glowing, everything normal except for the fact that I was almost 43wks pregnant, dd was faced wrong and in the wrong position to boot....I was in so much pain in my lower back that I couldn't walk and hadn't been able to for days...I started dilating at 30 weeks and by the time my due date came around I was already 5cm and may as well have been 100% according to my wonderful midwife.....She told me to pack my bags for a preemie but dd hung in there to grow to 8.15lbs....

She stripped my membranes twice to no avail so after a lengthy convo about it we decided on a tiny amt of pit if she didn't decide to come out on her own before that date....I got my tiny amt of pit and contractions came fast and hard but not like I had read or been told about with pit inductions....I ended up with an epidural....my pain threshold at that time was very low (ask me about it now..lmao) but just enough to dull the pain a bit for me so I was able to focus more on dd than on myself..it was about her at that point.....I was able to stand, kneel over my birth bar, everything else I had planned to do.....DD ended up with shoulder dystocia and I am happy I had the small amt of epidural in my system......

The anesthes who gave me the epi though wore a mask and fresh gloves...he came to check on me too shortly after to see how it was and put on a fresh pair of gloves and when his pager went off one of the nurses checked it for him and then washed her hands with the anti bac wash....Maybe my hospital was just one of the best when it comes to that.....never once did I worry..I went into it knowing the risks but agreed after talking with my MW for an hour about it, would she do it, the risks, my specific situation.....

I know many mama's get induced these days bc they are tired of being pregnant, they have a wedding or party they want to get to or they want a specific birth date.....and that's their choice, I don't agree with it but they aren't me....I made the best decsion for me and my new family at the time an dhave had to check myself when friends have gone the I want to have my baby on this day even though I am perfectly healthy......and I have friends right now who are in tears bc they have just been put on bedrest pretty close to their duedates bc of eclampsia and other things wanting their blessings to "cook" as long as possible but it just may not happen that way and they are devestated....but learning that it's for the best right now....We can't always choose the way our little ones come into the world and how but we can choose what happens after they come into the world (for the most part) and how we raise them....and in the end, healthy and thriving is what matters the most to me right now...

My next one, sure, I'd love to not have to undergo an induction/epi combo....and it's what I am hoping for more than ever......but I would be just as happy with pink, screaming and healthy...I can't ask for any more than that.....

I know ppl who have had homebirths that have gone horribly wrong and wished they had had their little ones at the hospital and others where it's been a beautiful experience (been there)......
It's just tragic what happened to that family...I hope the hospital is held accountable or at least that ansesthesio........
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#39 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 07:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
That "you are WAY more likely to die during an uncomplicated, unmedicated, routine vaginal delivery than you are to die from placement of an epidural."

There is nothing in the numbers that indicates that this 1 in 10,000 refers to uncomplicated, unmedicated routine vaginal delivery.
Ah, ok. That makes sense, as I'm not sure I've ever seen any stats that distinguish between uncomplicated vaginal deliveries vs. complicated ones. Although, I must point out that if a woman dies during vaginal birth, it may have been uncomplicated up til the point of death, but the fact that mom died would automatically make it complicated, right?

The two women I knew personally who died after vaginal childbirth died from an amniotic embolis immediately after delivery of the baby (NO signs of trouble whatsoever leading up til that point, then boom, she was dead) and the other gave birth to her fourth baby with less than 10 minutes of pushing, and less than 15 minutes later was dead of PPH. I mean, they TRIED to save her, pumped in I don't even know how many units of blood and packed cells, but she was gone before they ever got her to the OR and they never revived her.

Both of those cases occurred after routine vaginal deliveries. I've always thought that the maternal death rate after vaginal delivery (the 1 in 10,000 figure) pretty much included cases such as these two. Sure, there are cases where one intervention led to another and who knows what would have happened without all the interventions, so maybe that skews the numbers some, but then there are the women that die during a homebirth that might have survived if they'd had immediate access to life saving surgery or whatever in the hospital. It happens, but it's not common, or at least *I* don't think 1 in 10,000 is all that common.

And epidural risk of death is even less. Twenty women will die during vaginal childbirth vs one from epidural placement. Even if the numbers are off by a bit, that's still a big difference in risk.
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#40 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 07:26 PM
 
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So heartbreaking.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#41 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 07:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wifeandmom
Both of those cases occurred after routine vaginal deliveries. I've always thought that the maternal death rate after vaginal delivery (the 1 in 10,000 figure) pretty much included cases such as these two.
And epidural risk of death is even less. Twenty women will die during vaginal childbirth vs one from epidural placement. Even if the numbers are off by a bit, that's still a big difference in risk.
Unless a mom has no interventions at all (no IV fluids, no pit., no epidural, no pushing on demand, etc.) it is almost impossible to definatively say that her death or complications were not at least in part caused by these interventions. The epidural risk would then not be simply the cases in which the epidural directly caused death, but the cases in which epidurals were used and may have contributed to complication. It is just so hard to get accurate statistics when the "routine delivery" consists of so many interventions any of which can contribute to complications which may/ may not have presented themselves anyway...If you were to take statistics from a sample of women who all had totally intervention-free births the numbers may be very different.

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#42 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by craftymom
This is so horribly sad. But it has less to do with a hospital birth or the epidural than it has to do w/a clearly understaffed hospital.
I think it mainly had to do with the contaminated needle that the anesth. just put back in. Of course the doctor/nurses that basically ignored her complaints didn't help either. I can't stand doctors that don't help you and when you complain of something they just give you some pain meds.

Suffering severe baby fever : with my DH and my DD (12/5/03) :
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#43 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 08:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by erin_brycesmom
I think the hospital was not concerned because the symptoms of her infection are also commonside effects of an epidural. They probably see it all the time and just thought she was a whiney patient. When the symptoms went beyond that they took her to ICU.

This and other stories like it definitely influence my desire to have a homebirth. Hospitals are full of germs, full of sick people. Infections can be spread.
erin_brycesmom,

, I rather give birth at a free standing birth center period then the hospital, at this time I don't want to give birth at home.
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#44 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 08:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by courtenay_e
Am I the only one who noticed that she was induced? Come on, ladies. Let's go get a pit induction! Then we can get an epidural 'cause the pit cxt are evil. It's just so much more conVIEnient to choose your baby's birth day with an induction...

Sorry but they don't DO that at home, and yes, homebirths are statistically as safe or safer for normal healthy moms. As a matter of fact, studies have shown that, for most HIGH risk births, home birth is as safe as hospital birth, because interventions aren't there to put the baby at further risk.

I'm sorry, though. This was a well educated couple. I put SOME of the blame on them. I don't want to sound hard hearted, because it's an awful tragedy. However, you are going to have needles and major MAJOR drugs put into your body, and you DON'T KNOW OR CARE ABOUT the RISKS? I'm sorry, but there's a reason that the page you sign when you give consent is so full of very fine print. THere's a reason the line you sign says that you've asked all the questions you have and that those questions have been answered to your satisfaction. Because you have a responsibility to KNOW the risks, and to weigh them versus the benefits. She was a normal, healthy, low risk mom. Why was she being induced? It was an unnecessary induction, an unnecessary epidural. Yes, the hospital should have been more careful about the sterile field. But if she hadn't been administered the pit, would she have needed the epidural? If she hadn't chosen the epidural, would she have gotten meningitis?

I'm sorry, but my husband had major abdominal surgery and his wound was infected by a hospital strain strep. Having surgery in a major hospital brings that risk. You can get it from the sheets, from a bandage...even bleach and antimicrobal cleaners don't kill these bugs. It's a risk you take with surgery. My husband had another surgery in his abdomen where we asked over and over and OVER again whether it would affect his fertility, as we would have saved sperm if it would. We were told no, that it wouldn't affect his fertility. So, we felt fine reading all the risks on the paper, not finding fertility, and signing the informed consent feeling like we were informed (it was a life saving surgery, so the risks listed were definately worth the benefit of his survival. However, the docs lied to us about the risk of infertility, as they really believed that he was going to die anyway, and it wouldn't be an issue. Well, he lived. We were as informed as we could be, and very unhappy about the results. However, this was a life or death procedure. Julies was NOT. Her's was a convenience procedure.

Sorry mamas. I really agree with homebirth, too, and this is just one more reason. I mean, in general, homebirth midwives just don't advocate convenience inductions or running away from the work of childbirth, so this wouldn't have happened at home. But, they were obviously too mainstream to be using a homebirth midwife. So, where do we go from here? Education. The hospitals ARE NOT going to give full education about inductions, epidurals, and c-sections. They are what make the hospitals and the doctors the big bucks. And they ARE in existance to make money. We really need to have more NON hospital birthing classes around. We need to make them commonplace, with all the real info about all the interventions that take place in hospitals. We need to challenge the status quo, and make mainstream women question interventions too.

I see this a less of a homebirth issue and more of an education towards evidence based medicine issue. And the only way we'll get more education is if we call for it. So, are we going to see this as a call to action? I hope so. I really do. SOrry to be so intense...can you tell I'm passionate about this?...
courtenay_e,

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#45 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 08:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CalebsMama05
I would guess the hospital. I know they don't give you any risk/benefit ratio when they give you epidural. no "this is what will happen if you get the epidural, this is what MIGHT happen, this is what COULD happen...do you still want it" just "oh you want an epidural? GREAT lets get someone in here ASAP."
Jamie,

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#46 of 51 Old 06-05-2006, 11:28 PM
 
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Usually the quoted rates of maternal mortality are taken from death certificate data of all women who died within a particular time from a birth. It encompasses all deaths, and INCLUDES those women who die of anesthesia complications (rarely from an epidural like the case in this case, slightly more often from general for cesarean or other procedure.) It's not that getting an epidural is safer than childbirth, but that getting an epidural complicates childbirth and adds an additional risk. I don't mean that no one should ever get one, but that there are known risks, one of which is infection.
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#47 of 51 Old 06-06-2006, 03:38 AM
 
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What really just smacks of hubris to me is the hospital's statement that she came into the hospital with the infection. Um, huh? Hospital acquired infection is very common. Hospitals know this. This is why they have all those signs up about asking people to wash their hands....

I can't tell you how many times I have to remind people to wash their hands. I don't consider the anti-bacterial foam to be enough after my son acquired c. diff. while in the hospital.

This story is simply tragic. And a preventable death.

mv
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#48 of 51 Old 06-06-2006, 06:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamaverdi
What really just smacks of hubris to me is the hospital's statement that she came into the hospital with the infection. Um, huh? Hospital acquired infection is very common. Hospitals know this. This is why they have all those signs up about asking people to wash their hands....

I can't tell you how many times I have to remind people to wash their hands. I don't consider the anti-bacterial foam to be enough after my son acquired c. diff. while in the hospital.

This story is simply tragic. And a preventable death.

mv
MV,

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#49 of 51 Old 06-06-2006, 06:08 PM
 
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Heres link to the Childbirth Center at Sibley where she gave birth and died there.

http://www.sibley.org/services/s_noc.tmpl

Not sure what to think about this.
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#50 of 51 Old 06-07-2006, 11:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teagreenribbons
Not sure what to think about this.
Argh. Sounds like the description they give at every hospital about their maternity ward, making the family believe they have a lot of say in things. Then when they've got you and your insurance dollars ensconced in there, they go ahead and ignore your preferences because it's not "policy."
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#51 of 51 Old 06-07-2006, 06:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by grumpyshoegirl
Argh. Sounds like the description they give at every hospital about their maternity ward, making the family believe they have a lot of say in things. Then when they've got you and your insurance dollars ensconced in there, they go ahead and ignore your preferences because it's not "policy."
Amy,

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