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#211 of 238 Old 09-30-2006, 12:11 PM
 
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What about fear of a specific midwife?
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#212 of 238 Old 09-30-2006, 12:13 PM
 
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I also, just want to say that I think there is a difference between choosing to homebirth because of fear of hospitals and the crapola that happens there and choosing to UC out of fear of midwives.
Because the push/pull dichotomy applies in both situations -- you can make a choice either out of a reaction against the thing or out of an embrace of the other -- I'm assuming you're talking about something else but I can't think what it is. Would you elaborate?
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#213 of 238 Old 10-01-2006, 12:17 AM
 
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I chose to UC because it is something I feel I need to do myself, at least once. I think it will be empowering and give me a great sense of confidence to say "I did that. All by myself." It would prove to me that I can do anything and that I am strong, and I think that would affect my life forever. Moreover, it's not that I'm afraid of hospitals or midwives; it's that I don't want unnecessary interventions, and that could happen with both a hospital or a midwife. Lastly, getting Tricare to cover a homebirth is a hassel that I almost don't even wanna deal with! I really don't think that 'fear' is a very common reason for women to chose to UC. Fear isn't enough of a motivator, imo, to get you through labor and delivery. If anything I think it is the opinion that it is empowering, natural, or preferable to assisted birth...not fear of assistance.

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#214 of 238 Old 10-01-2006, 12:36 PM
 
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I also, just want to say that I think there is a difference between choosing to homebirth because of fear of hospitals and the crapola that happens there and choosing to UC out of fear of midwives.
Though the issues and problems are different, I don't like the crapola that happens with midwives either. :

Fear of midwives is a valid reason to UC.

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#215 of 238 Old 10-01-2006, 03:47 PM
 
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so I don't think that we can really judge why women choose to birth the way they do, moving away from something, required by religious faith , fear of providers, fear of no provider . But when deciding for ourselves is when judgment should come in and who we share the birthing experience with or choose not to share is our individual choice- do I think that fear of midwives is any different than fear of hospitals and docs no- there are some midwives famous or not I would not want near me- maybe instead of a CSection or some sort of life saving thing but this would be instead of going to the hospital.

---I would also like to comment on a previous post about watching other women parent and breastfeed- to say that in this country where we do not generally see women nursing babies we have tons of breastfeeding related problems more so than in primary cultures where women/babies have remained attached- irregardless of disturbed births-much of what is taught has to do with seeing a behavior in context not so much about problem solving by talking about things or reading about them but learning by observation and doing. I do think that many things are nature and nurture just like language, people all over the world speak a language if they are hearing and not mute, but we don't all speak the same language we speak what we hear-
for me deeper cultural things I was raised with extended family until I went to school- so women ran things the household and the work and it was not only run by women but shared- and no one was boss- things got done, if one woman was doing dishes then one scraped plates or rinsed and dried.. and no one micromanaged even when I learned I was given a towel and not instructed - when I lived in communes it was similar but different because too many bosses and not enough just get it done folks and way too much talking and probably too many cultural differences - micromanagement down to how to squeeze a tooth paste tube...If my grandmothers had been alive when I had my children either one I would have trusted or both no second thoughts- to find women of their actions in the US midwifery world is not an easy feat-- when I have met midwives from other countries many are similar to my grandmothers humble, strong, compassionate, sensible, women i would trust.
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#216 of 238 Old 10-01-2006, 10:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
I guess I should elaborate.

Things that to my mind make UC less safe or not the best idea (and I realize that not everyone will agree with me on every point):

When the parents are fearful enough of others becoming involved that they avoid seeking help even when there are indications that something is very wrong.

When the mother is UCing only because her husband is in charge as the "head of the family" and *he* wants her to.

When *all* medical care is rejected for religious reasons.

When the mother and father believe that nothing undesired can happen.

When the husband (or anyone, really,) acts in the role of midwife, directing the mother.

When there is anyone present who makes the mother feel unhibited or self-conscious or unsupported.

When the birth, for whatever reason, is not allowed to be spontaneous and instinctive.

When the mother has serious health problems.

When the mother does not have enough body awareness to intuit what is normal and what is not.

When UC is chosen because there is no other choice, out of desperation.

When UC is chosen only to save money.

When UC is chosen despite the mother still having serious reservations and fears about it.

I could probably go on but I ought to go to bed...

While these may make you uncomfortable, they certainly do not diminish the validity of the choice to UC. Many women who plan a UC will do much more research than a woman who plans to give birth in a hospital and let someone else run things. Therefore they are not ignorant and naive, but educated and empowered.

Likewise, many women who choose a hospital birth do so for many ofht ereasons you were concerned about. They don't think there are other options, they don't think anything can go wrong at a hospital, the husband/partner makes them, they are afraid of rejection or persecution from friends and family, etc. I have always believed that the best place for a woman to birth is in the place in which she feels the most safe and comfortable. However, the choice should be an educated one. The only people I "worry about" are those who don't know they have birthing options. They either birth the way society deems appropriate or the way they are pressured into by friends and/or family.

The original reason I looked into homebirth was because I wanted a child but could not afford the hospital bills. However, I now am committed to a homebirth (UC) because I will be more free and relaxed to have an empowering birth. Will I choose my dream birth over my baby? No. If something seems off or abnormal, I will run to a hospital or a doctor to get help.

The issue I find irritating is the notion that a woman choosing to UC must have all the "right" motives, reasons and mindsets to make her choice valid, whereas a woman can stroll into a hospital and give birth without the slightest backlash. Her motives and rationale is never questioned, she is not blamed if something goes wrong and life goes on.

I'm ranting, so I guess I'm done.

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#217 of 238 Old 10-01-2006, 11:49 PM
 
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the breasfeeding thing strikes a chord with me. I believe in "unassisted breasfeeding, if you will. I have never sough help or assitance with BFing either of my babies...not from a nurse, not from an LC, not from anyone. BFing has been one of the easiest experiences of my life. Meanwhile I see mother after mother struggle and fight battles with it daily. Was I just lucky? I don't believe I was any luckier than most of them. I believe that most women have the ability to BF easily just like I did. I put 100% trust in my body to do what it needed to do *OR* for it to let me know when something was wrong. When I read other women's BFing horror stories some of the "problems" they had were things that happened to me as well only I did not view them as problems and I did what came naturally to me and carried on with my wonderful nursing relationship. I think so often the advice given by even well meaning/educated LCs just makes things worse because BFing is not one size fits all. I think getting in touch with your body and trusting your instincts is the most important aspect to successful BFing.

I have been bashed (for lack of a better word) for my views on this because so many think it is important to have more awareness for the problems associated with BFing and more assitance for those issues and I do agree that all of that can be good but I still think *some* women would be better off if they ignored every bit of BFing advice and just looked inward and did it on their own. I think there is definitely a place for both.

Anyway, my point is that I think there is a place for both assisted and unassited birth as well.

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#218 of 238 Old 10-02-2006, 01:15 AM
 
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The issue I find irritating is the notion that a woman choosing to UC must have all the "right" motives, reasons and mindsets to make her choice valid, whereas a woman can stroll into a hospital and give birth without the slightest backlash. Her motives and rationale is never questioned, she is not blamed if something goes wrong and life goes on.
ITA with this. I think that "motivating" reasons as just a map. I believe that most every woman can benefit from HB or UC no matter what her motives. I also believe that it is just as safe, no matter the motives.

So I may not agree with so-and-so's motives (say, her husband made her do it), but that does not mean that her doing it "because" her husband made her do it will make it any less safe than if she had gone to the hospital. On the other hand, I DO believe that if she goes to the hospital "because her husband made her do it" she could be worse off. So motives or no motives, I believe HB or UC are still the best (at least equally as save, with UC, IMHO, being more safe).

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the breastfeeding thing strikes a chord with me. I believe in "unassisted breastfeeding, if you will. I have never sough help or assistance with BFing either of my babies...not from a nurse, not from an LC, not from anyone. BFing has been one of the easiest experiences of my life. Meanwhile I see mother after mother struggle and fight battles with it daily. Was I just lucky? I don't believe I was any luckier than most of them. I believe that most women have the ability to BF easily just like I did. I put 100% trust in my body to do what it needed to do *OR* for it to let me know when something was wrong. When I read other women's BFing horror stories some of the "problems" they had were things that happened to me as well only I did not view them as problems and I did what came naturally to me and carried on with my wonderful nursing relationship. I think so often the advice given by even well meaning/educated LCs just makes things worse because BFing is not one size fits all. I think getting in touch with your body and trusting your instincts is the most important aspect to successful BFing.
ITA with this also. I believe that many women that have trouble with BF are because of all the "help" and "advice" they get from friends, family, and well meaning strangers, as well as nurses and others at the hospital. That, and combined with all the "hospital" birth stuff; drugs, separation right away, formula and fluids given to baby, and so on. It's no wonder that there are so many mothers that have trouble BFing.

For me, I never was raised watching anyone BF. I don't think I ever saw my Mom do it, or anyone else for that matter. But BFing was just what you were "suppose" to do when you had a baby. No one told me this, no one had to. If we were given milk for our babies naturally, then it must be best to give them that instead of powder stuff, right? :

So when I had my first baby and began BFing, I had no trouble at all. The only time "advice" and "opinions" became a problem for me was when I was told I should wean Baby at 5 months old (which I did )

I have successively BF seven babies "unassisted". And have wonderful memories. My children will never be able to say, "they never say BFing" like I am able to say. And I am proud! They will be second generation experts in HB-UC-EBF. My son already expresses that his wife will not go to a hospital "just" to have a baby! And he is only 10.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#219 of 238 Old 10-02-2006, 04:23 PM
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I believe that most women have the ability to BF easily just like I did. I put 100% trust in my body to do what it needed to do *OR* for it to let me know when something was wrong. When I read other women's BFing horror stories some of the "problems" they had were things that happened to me as well only I did not view them as problems and I did what came naturally to me and carried on with my wonderful nursing relationship. I think so often the advice given by even well meaning/educated LCs just makes things worse because BFing is not one size fits all. I think getting in touch with your body and trusting your instincts is the most important aspect to successful BFing.
this might sound funny, but i'm retreating for the baby moon in order to avoid meddlin'.

my DH and I had a huge sit-down with my ILs a few weeks ago. during this sit-down, we talked about a lot of things: our move, our process in trying to secure a job in order to move, our process once we move to establish a home and new career for DH, my process in establishing a home and my work-life (finding balance in that), and our tenative goals for TTC.

i talked about when we would TTC, that we would HB, and that we were going to do a baby moon retreat. we also told them that we are going to AP.

the reason for this is that i realized almost immediately that my MIL or my mother would LOVE to visit the moment the baby was born (or be present) and that for me, that would be an absolute nightmare. Both women are rather high strung, my MIL more so, and my MIL is a negative, negative judgemental person.

She is well meaning, i understand this, but she's down-right meddlesome. she believes that there are ways that things "should be" done and any other way is "wrong" and makes you a "bad person" if you do them that way.

i realized that my hsuband and i are well read and emotionally prepared for many aspects of parenting--as well as becoming more responsible for ourselves and our finances to prepare us for this process. But, we also know that there is a 'practicum' to this knowledge called "actually having a baby" and that great sense of awe (and probably a bit of sublime-styled fear) when you hold that little person and go "now i have to figure out how to make sure i don't kill you or get you killed in the next 20 years!"

we want to lotus birth, to EC, to avoid circ. These are "bad" things to my MIL, as is AP ("i've heard that AP is really bad for kids!"--her direct response when told we were going to AP). well, i assume they are. i haven't told her about them.

i figure that i'd like that first month or 6 weeks with the baby to be time for DH and I--alone and unassisted/unhindered--to learn how to be parents and apply these things that we're learning about now and figure out what works for us (all three of us--him, me, baby!).

my MIL is not too happy. She moans and whines. All of her friends get to go to the hospital to watch the birth or they get to go and see the baby right after the c-section. they get to see their grandchildren right way--and help out (i read that as meddle).

and on top of that, since we are moving, my MIL said "well, if we can't come to see theb aby right away, then i guess you'll be bringing the baby to us, right?' and i said 'no, because we're not going to fly with the baby or do extensive travel for the first year at least, maybe more' and she said "but so-and-so's daughter flew to five different states with her week-old daughter to visit all the major relatives." and i said "too bad so-and-so raised an idiot.'

sometimes, i get caustic, i'm sorry. please forgive that. just, a new immune system, fed formula, on an airplane four or five times in a couple of weeks is just too much stupidity for me to keep m mouth shut. LOL

yeah, so, yeah.
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#220 of 238 Old 10-03-2006, 02:03 AM
 
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The issue I find irritating is the notion that a woman choosing to UC must have all the "right" motives, reasons and mindsets to make her choice valid, whereas a woman can stroll into a hospital and give birth without the slightest backlash. Her motives and rationale is never questioned, she is not blamed if something goes wrong and life goes on.
Additionally they have to have lots of research and statistics to back it up, and they sometimes really have to fight for it. It's ridiculous.

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I believe that many women that have trouble with BF are because of all the "help" and "advice" they get from friends, family, and well meaning strangers, as well as nurses and others at the hospital
I agree. I think if we all had a "Do it yourself, but DO IT. Try everything you can think of, and find out what works for you" sort of attitude, maybe there would be less problems. Help would be beneficial if we had reliable sources, but unfortunately, we don't. Even LCs can be full of misinformation. You know, I think the best person to ask if you need to would be a woman who breastfed like 3 kids up until they were 3 LOL. She's been down the block and probably won't steer ya wrong!!

Most of my relatives are freaking out about the UC too, going on about how much more safe hospitals are and how I should at least have a midwife present...

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#221 of 238 Old 10-03-2006, 01:39 PM
 
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Additionally they have to have lots of research and statistics to back it up, and they sometimes really have to fight for it. It's ridiculous.


I agree. I think if we all had a "Do it yourself, but DO IT. Try everything you can think of, and find out what works for you" sort of attitude, maybe there would be less problems. Help would be beneficial if we had reliable sources, but unfortunately, we don't. Even LCs can be full of misinformation. You know, I think the best person to ask if you need to would be a woman who breastfed like 3 kids up until they were 3 LOL. She's been down the block and probably won't steer ya wrong!!

Most of my relatives are freaking out about the UC too, going on about how much more safe hospitals are and how I should at least have a midwife present...
Totally. It sucks. My mom is surprisingly supportive of HB but she really would like a mw present at the birth. Also, while she doesn't mind the UP too much she does think I should get a check up at some point just to make sure everything's okay. Most of my other friends however have flat out told me I'm endangering the baby or being selfish or whatever. It's really irritating, because I know I've don'e so much research into this that my UP is probably just as healthy if not healthier than a lot of other pgs where there is no research done and they just rely on the dr to tell them what to do.

Another thing that I know happens is that the blame of any problems falls on the mom if she UCs whereas it is shared or even given completely to the MW or dr in other situations. That isn't fair. Sometimes babies get sick, come too early or are stillborn. It isn't anyone's fault (neccesarily) and it isn't fair that the mother is blamed for being negligent just because she UCed and had a stillborn or whatever. That would be so devastating and terrible for me. Blah...

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#222 of 238 Old 10-03-2006, 02:27 PM
 
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While these may make you uncomfortable, they certainly do not diminish the validity of the choice to UC.
No, they certainly don't. We all have different motivations and it is not for me to question the validity of another's.

But I can say that the more you do to make the birth dysfunctional, the more likely you will be to need emergency care. I wholly support freedom to choose and that includes any amount of intervention a woman feels she needs, but that doesn't mean I think hospital birth generally a good idea, or (for instance) that I think "managed UC" (an oxymoron to my mind anyway) is a good idea.

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So I may not agree with so-and-so's motives (say, her husband made her do it), but that does not mean that her doing it "because" her husband made her do it will make it any less safe than if she had gone to the hospital.
No, but at the hospital at least there are emergency services to deal with the fallout from a created dysfunctional labor. I believe that spontaneous, instinctive labor in a healthy, free mother will the vast majority of the time result in a good outcome. I don't believe that's true when labor is interfered with either pyschologically or physically, which is exactly why hospital workers have such a skewed understanding of the level of inherent danger in birth -- the births they see are all interfered with, so they see a lot of potentially life-threatening complications, so they think emergency backup care is necessary because in those cases it is. Interfered-with UC is also going to see a lot of potentially life-threatening complications. Remember the study of a small religious community in which most of the women UC'd? The infant death rate was terribly high. Why? Probably several reasons that were on my list. That's not to say that their choice to UC was invalid. Only to say that the conditions under which they did UC were less safe.
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#223 of 238 Old 10-03-2006, 02:39 PM
 
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Another thing that I know happens is that the blame of any problems falls on the mom if she UCs whereas it is shared or even given completely to the MW or dr in other situations. That isn't fair. Sometimes babies get sick, come too early or are stillborn. It isn't anyone's fault (neccesarily) and it isn't fair that the mother is blamed for being negligent just because she UCed and had a stillborn or whatever. That would be so devastating and terrible for me.
That was one of the hardest things for me to come to terms with. I fully believed that I was giving the baby the safest and most beneficial entrance into the world. And I was also prepared, spiritually and morally speaking, to accept a natural death. What I could not prepare for and which would have devastated me also, would have been the social and possibly legal ramifications of an infant death with no professional to blame for it. I think it's a HUGE factor in why more women don't UC.
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#224 of 238 Old 10-03-2006, 03:38 PM
 
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It's one thing to be motivated by a desire to NOT have something happen. It's another to be motivated by a desire to HAVE something happen.

See the difference?
Pain pushes.
Vision pulls.

What worries me are those women who never get to the "vision" part of thier births.
Fantastic insight. I have come to UC from both ways.

It's easier to explain my decision to birth unhindered by talking about what I am trying to avoid (high intervention rates in hospitals, bossy/interventive midwives, etc).

But what really inspires me are UC stories--that's what keeps me going when I have doubts or fears. It's that vision that will pull me through. I have my own personal "visions" about this birth, mostly drawn from my birth dreams. In nearly every dream, I give birth on my knees. No one else is touching me or telling me what to do. I am usually alone, although in one a good midwife friend was there chatting with me until I realized the baby was suddenly coming out! I always cradle my baby's emerging head in my hand, then catch the baby myself. (I even had a birth dream in a hospital--I ran away from the hospital staff, locked myself in a bathroom, and caught my baby while sitting on the toilet!).

I'm loving this thread, by the way!
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#225 of 238 Old 10-03-2006, 04:54 PM
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i was pulled.

and now i'm both pushed and pulled!
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#226 of 238 Old 10-03-2006, 09:24 PM
 
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But what really inspires me are UC stories--that's what keeps me going when I have doubts or fears. It's that vision that will pull me through. I have my own personal "visions" about this birth, mostly drawn from my birth dreams. In nearly every dream, I give birth on my knees. No one else is touching me or telling me what to do. I am usually alone, although in one a good midwife friend was there chatting with me until I realized the baby was suddenly coming out! I always cradle my baby's emerging head in my hand, then catch the baby myself. (I even had a birth dream in a hospital--I ran away from the hospital staff, locked myself in a bathroom, and caught my baby while sitting on the toilet!).
I too was continuosly inspired by stories of real women and their experiences. I looked for the ones that were truly unhindered for that positive vibe.

I only had one vivid birth dream, that was two nights before I gave birth. There was a midwife, my mom, & my best friend. I was semi reclining, legs open, midwife ready to catch the baby I was trying to push out. I remember her unexpectedly spreading my thighs a little more (gently still) and I was immediately annoyed. I felt agitated inside and wanted everyone to leave. I woke up and was completely certain that this baby was going to be born at home, unhindered. And he was Story:http://www.mothering.com/discussions...assisted+birth

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#227 of 238 Old 10-03-2006, 09:41 PM
 
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Visualization is such a helpful tool. It really helped me to become more clear about my needs and wants.
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#228 of 238 Old 10-04-2006, 11:44 AM
 
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I am not telling my family I am having a UC. I just don't think they could understand. They loved my midwife-attended homebirth last year but I did not as much and I know they would try to talk me into getting prenatal care.
I have been in touch with a midwife and have her support but we haven't done any prenatal care and I don't plan to, aside from the ultrasound I just had.
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#229 of 238 Old 10-10-2006, 02:04 PM
 
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I have not read all 12 pages of this thread, but I do have a question-I think. Based on my past 3 pregnancies and deliveries, I feel that I would be happy having an UC.
However, my dh is terrified at the thought or UC and HB in general. His monther delivered one of his sisters at home with a midwife and it was quite traumatic for him. I know that sounds funny but he was forced to watch the birth (his mother insisted all the children be there and be activily watching) he was 14 at the time.
From what I've heard the baby was in an odd position, couldn't decend, there was a lot of blood loss, long labor, mother was dehydrated and exhausted, the baby well over 10lbs, the midwife and the father ended up pressing on either side of MIL's pg belly to 'help' her push the baby out. An ambulance was finally called and the baby was born just minutes before it arrived.

wheww...

So I guess my question is did you all (UC'ers) have your dh's support for the begining? Did it take some educating/convincing?
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#230 of 238 Old 10-10-2006, 02:48 PM
 
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So I guess my question is did you all (UC'ers) have your dh's support for the beginning? Did it take some educating/convincing?
My DH has been on board with my HB/UC decisions right from the beginning. I never did have to convince him that it is what I wanted or needed to do.

Overcoming a tragic event, like your DH went through, may not be easy. But with a lot of TLC and a lot of education. I am sure it could be done.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#231 of 238 Old 11-06-2006, 04:27 PM
 
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Sometimes the husband isn't inside it with her, and that's not ideal; it might even cause problems. She might make that choice anyway for various reasons, just as a woman might make the choice to have a midwife there for various reasons, and that's valid. But neither choice is in itself the way birth is just "meant to be".
so where is this definition of the way birth is "meant to be" coming from? If a woman made that "choice" as you term it to have a midwife, for example, why is this choice considered less than ideal? Who's setting these ideals anyway? Seems awfully subjective to me.

If someone wants a UC I'm all for it but I find the idea that it's the way birthing "should be" a little off putting, kwim?

Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your intent.
I know this is an old thread, but I never answered this and wanted to clarify. No, I wasn't making a judgment as to whether attended or unattended birth is more ideal. I was asserting that attended birth is not inherently more ideal than unattended birth.

My quote above was in direct response to another poster's question:
Quote:
If sex is not meant to be alone, is birth also not meant to be alone?
She was asking whether it's possible that it's true that "birth is meant to be attended by others". My response was that no, it's not the way birth is just meant to be, that is, the ideal expression of birth; for the mother to be alone with the baby is also a perfectly valid expression of normal physiological and spiritual birth. I put "meant to be" in quotes so as to make it clear that I was referring back to her question where she used that wording.

It might help too to see the quote in context. I wrote:

Quote:
In conception the essential dyad is the woman and man. As a heterosexual and monogamist, I'm pretty partial to keeping the sex act to that essential dyad. But many people are able to become sexually aroused, with their genitals fully and normally functional, in other configurations. In birth the essential dyad is mother and baby. It is natural and normal for it to remain so throughout the act. Nothing else is needed for it to be complete and whole in a biological and spiritual sense. But it's also possible to have other people involved and still have the body continue functioning normally. The key in this happening in both sex and birth is that anyone outside of the essential dyad be inside the experience also. Ideally, this should happen in midwifery. I get this feeling from reading a book like The Red Tent, and I think that it's the romantic vision of midwifery in our culture, but almost never the reality. It's probably similar with women having others attend a UC. Sometimes the husband isn't inside it with her, and that's not ideal; it might even cause problems. She might make that choice anyway for various reasons, just as a woman might make the choice to have a midwife there for various reasons, and that's valid. But neither choice is in itself the way birth is just "meant to be".
There's nothing in there that implies that solo UC is the only valid form of birthing -- in fact I was trying to express the opposite belief, that while something that is outside of the essential dyad may not be necessary (in the case of normal birth, anyway,) it may still be desirable for one reason or another.

In fact, in my own last birth while I know that it would have been different and certainly with less risk of distraction and inhibition if I'd birthed solo, my husband was with me and his presence was a tremendous gift and was part of one of my favorite memories of any of my births. For me, that was as ideal as it could get; I even used the words in my birth story, "it was finally the way it was meant to be." So no, I wasn't saying that attended birth isn't meant to be, only that it is not THE way (the only way) it is meant to be.
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#232 of 238 Old 01-23-2007, 03:15 AM
 
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....
I have a friend who believes she could not physically make it through birth without an epidural. The thing that saddens me is not that fact that she has epidurals, but the fact that our society leads women to believe that they cannot get through birth wihout assistance....
This brings about a question with me for the UCers that would hope that a best friend or even a stranger who has no clue that UCing would be a possibility for themselves... If you wanted to share your experience with that person and try to educate them on the fact that they could do it physically and that they wouldn't go crazy and lose complete control without and epidural; What examples of the differences in coping with the physical sensations would you use to differentiate between an epi and going without the drugs?
I ask this because it's something that I'd personally like to know about the sensations; Kind of like, I've heard in other posts about the 'pain' question -that it's like having the stomach flu and the diff is the purpose of birthing as oposed to the purposelessness of the flu and pain related to it...and the fear relation that goes with all that. (At least that's the understanding I gather from the things I've read) Does anyone else have any differing examples other than the flu pains veres labor sensations? My first birth and so far any birth, was horrific. It was in the hospital and I had 3rd stage complications (I believe due to the epidural, the emotional and pysiological interuptions, and the interferance of the OB by rushing the placenta out by pulling it out, and I didn't even know if I should push because I didn't/couldn't feel contractions/didn't know what they were, etc. I was very drugged and felt very out of control the entire time, and hemmoraged. I don't even remember being in pain persay before the epidural, but I know that the pushing stage burned and was very scary and the afterbirth was the worst part for me. It was really emotionally and physically traumatising for me. I don't feel that I was at any comfort or mentally positive level at all during my birth of my son in the hospital. (Which is the biggest thing leading me to other options) Otherwise it was okay without other complications except for my major discomforts with the hospital procedures that I believed hindered breast feeding etc) -short story of my first birth- This time I'm hopeing for a home birth and don't know how to find a midwife who could help me because of the access, and mostly the cost. I feel that so many others have done it unassisted (without a pro) that I should be able to as well and that I would possibly have a better chance of not hemmoraging, ( due to the fact that I wouldn't have anyone rushing/managing my labor and the fact that my hormones would work properly -I'm hopeing for a more intimate, private, experience via UA/UC- and that even if I did hemmorage; at least there are 3 hospitals within 5 min and I could always eat a peice of the placenta if it came out in time and breast feed right away to help expel the placenta. (the hemmoraging is my biggest fear about going UA; but my worst fear of all is going through medical monitoring, mental mistreatment and the standard medical procedures; basicly losing the potential intimacy of the birth experience)
I'm not sure if I'm straying from the origional topic but basicly I'm asking this question that I think is a little deeper and productivity related to societies opinions/fears of against going without drugs and interventions.

I'm pondering what we as UCers (even though I'm not officially one yet, but hopeing to be) can do to help others understand? (Other than this wonderful thread)
At the same time I'm trying to find ideas and experiences to help myself feel more comfortable with how I may be able to cope.
In a nutshell I've described the reasons why I'm leaned towards a partner assisted home birth, and some of the things I'm still concerned about. Which goes to show that UCers do put alot of time and consideration into evaluating the risks/benefits because I'm one of them. Even if I could afford a midwife assisted/hospital birth, which I can because I have insurance... I'm trying to opt out because I feel it would be safer for me and my baby to go unhindered, and hope that it will give my whole family a more positive peacful experience.

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#233 of 238 Old 01-24-2007, 06:06 PM
 
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I'm wondering what transition is like during a UC. Last time, when I entered transition while laboring at home with a midwife, I got scared and demanded my husband take me to the hospital. In retrospect, I really regret doing that. I will never know for certain whether the complications that occurred in the hospital were the result of the interventions used there or if they would have occurred at home.

How does a woman know the difference between instintively knowing something is wrong and the common "I can't do this" feeling of transition?
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#234 of 238 Old 01-24-2007, 09:31 PM
 
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eminencejae, I saw somewhere that taking an epidural for a normal birth is like taking an epidural during a marathon. The same overworked muscles, possibly even pain, can be overwhelmed by the exhilaration of knowing you're about to finish the race! Drugging yourself up so you can't experience the sensations of winning... well, it just wouldn't be the same.

Loads of blessings, and learning on the job.
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#235 of 238 Old 01-24-2007, 10:36 PM
 
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eminencejae, I saw somewhere that taking an epidural for a normal birth is like taking an epidural during a marathon. The same overworked muscles, possibly even pain, can be overwhelmed by the exhilaration of knowing you're about to finish the race! Drugging yourself up so you can't experience the sensations of winning... well, it just wouldn't be the same.
Thank you! That's a great example! I read that somewhere too. Especially in the study I read about the effects of the drugs and how they mess with the other hormones that the body needs in order to make a healthy balance, and in a nutshell the absence of that balance is what is beleived to be one of the causes of post pardum depression. I really wish more people would understand these things... Not to mention the effect the drugs have on the baby and the tiring of the mother that affects being able to establish bf early on.

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I'm wondering what transition is like during a UC. Last time, when I entered transition while laboring at home with a midwife, I got scared and demanded my husband take me to the hospital. In retrospect, I really regret doing that. I will never know for certain whether the complications that occurred in the hospital were the result of the interventions used there or if they would have occurred at home.

How does a woman know the difference between instintively knowing something is wrong and the common "I can't do this" feeling of transition?
Munchkimo, If you are comfortable going over this a little bit more, would you explain in more detail, possibly in a PM or another thread just incase this isn't an apropriate category for it; What did the midwife say about your impending transfer? Did she think it was nessecary? Why? Was it just something that happened because you were overwhelmed and not coping? Was it an extended amount of time thing/stalled labor/unknown position of the baby?

I've been wondering about this recently myself and it's one of my big worries about UCing - with my partner. I'm afraid that I'll freak out or that a combo of others around me getting nervous will cause us to transfer without a really good reason and am trying to figure out how to draw the line between really good reason and just plain fear and discomfort. One of the birth stories I read this happened to the woman who was trying to UC and there really didn't seem much reason for her to have had to tranfer IMO. I've told my partner that no matter what I say or do just put up with it but don't bring in any medical interventions until this baby is OUT! Prefurably not even until the placenta is out! The last thing I need after all that work and perserverance is to end up at the hospital having them rip whatever they can, charging us for it, and losing the bonding time with the baby.

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#236 of 238 Old 01-25-2007, 02:17 PM
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i find those 'i can't do it any more' moments in life have two origins: reality or fear. when it's reality--time to stop. when it's fear--time to keep going on.

they 'taste' different.

since i've experiencd them in other aspects of my life, i believe that the 'taste' factor will be similar in transition. if it 'tastes' like fear, then it will be fear and time to press on. if it tastes like reality, then time to embrace that and get help.

but i don't know for certain. i just know that we come to those 'i can't do it anymore' moments in yoga asana all the time, as well as in meditation, and, well, you either keep going (because it's the body complaining and that's it, the fear that goes with it) or you let go of it and take rest (which would be akin to getting help in the birth process). so, there it is.
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#237 of 238 Old 01-25-2007, 03:40 PM
 
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I think a very real danger to UC in our culture is that our whole lives we are taught to cultivate a fear of life in general rather than an ability to sense danger, because "instinct/intuition isn't real or isn't enough". Protecting the Gift by Gavin de Becker explains the concept very well.

I had that feeling of "just take me to the hospital and have then cut me open" but at the same time I was able to recognize it as being about my desire not to have to be in pain anymore, rather than about a sense of danger.
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#238 of 238 Old 01-25-2007, 04:06 PM
 
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I don't mind sharing here at all. I'm thankful to have a place to gain valuable perspective. I've tried to keep this brief, but sometimes with births small details are very important.

My midwife was very hands off, to the point that she preferred to be called a baby catcher rather than a midwife. My labor started when I was four days "overdue". I had attempted to start labor by using nipple stimulation. I did this partly because I was anxious to meet my baby, but I was moreso just concerned about my family leaving for vacation before the baby was born.

The nipple stimulation triggered light contractions that came every 10-7 minutes for the next three days. During these three days, contractions only let up once for about an hour, so I was quite sleep deprived when true labor actually started. I know this was not actual labor because I only dilated to 2 centimeters.

After a day and a half of active labor, I had my husband and my midwife check my dilation. I was 7cm with a cervical lip in the front. I labored for about three more hours in the positions that were most uncomfortable for me thinking that this would help resolve the cervical lip. Then my dilation was checked again and I was still at 7cm with the cervical lip now on the right side of my cervix. I didn't handle labor well after this point. I was aggravated and discouraged. I felt like I was working harder than I ever had in my life and getting nowhere. Then my water broke. It was clear. This compelled me to keep persevering at home.

Three hours later, I felt slightly like pushing. I wasn't sure. Things just felt different and I found it suddenly impossible to relax at all. I told my husband it didn't feel right and had him drive me to the hospital. I don't recall having my dilation checked before leaving, but I remember telling the doctors at the hospital that I was 7 and a half centimeters.

At the hospital, they confirmed that I was 7.5-8cm. They decided to send me to another hospital that was 20 miles away by ambulance as there was no doctor on call who could perform a cesarean if neccessary. By this time, I was pushing involuntarily. The nurses started an IV and administered Nubain in hopes that it would prevent me from pushing before dilating fully.

The Nubain did absolutely nothing and the ambulance ride was quite stressful as I was pushing hard involuntarily and being told that I was going to rupture my cervix if I kept pushing. When I got to the next hospital, the offered a spinal block to numb my pushing urge. I reluctantly complied. I dilated shortly thereafter but no longer felt much of anything let alone a pushing urge. I pushed when the nurses told me I was having a contraction. It was slow going. I was tired and numb.

The baby's heartrate was showing decelerations and the OB thought it would be best to use vaccum extraction. The baby's head was born. The hindwaters showed meconium. The OB called for fundal pressure while he tugged on the baby's head with the vaccum. My son's shoulders were born. I held him for half a minute (best half minute of my life) before they took him away to do suctioning, eye goop, and vitamin K. I believe they also took blood at that time.

Needless to say, I'm left wondering why I had such a hard time dilating beyond 7 cm. I also wonder if the shoulder dystocia was caused by poor positioning, by the vaccum, or if it was truly a matter of my son's shoulders being too large for my pelvis.
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