I've just gotta vent a little about this - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 11:05 AM
 
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But it is "educating". And there is no way around that.

I wish someone had worried less about hurting my feelings and had instead been more honest about the reality of birthing today. Or maybe I just wasn't ready to listen at the time.

This thread is not about someone scheduling a csection because they have herpes (which by the way, does not automatically mean you have to resign yourself to having a csection). It is about the current birthing climate and how more and more women are so willing to listen to myth and scaremongering over evidence based reality. Many women have been brainwashed into believing their bodies no longer work they way they were intended to and that interventions are completely harmless and it just AIN'T TRUE!
Yes, yes, and yes. And for what it's worth, what I myself was talking about is when people come to me to ask me my opinion or about things they know I've researched and then get PO'd when I don't tell them what they want to hear. I'm not in to shoving my beliefs down anyone else's throat (I'm not social enough to volunteer it either, ), but when asked I'll certainly not dance around the issue.

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#32 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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See, there's the condescending thing again. First of all, the herpes thing wasn't about me, and 2nd of all, I meant if someone was having an outbreak when they went into labour. But you had to assume I didn't know what I was talking about & talk down to me.

It's late, and I"m pms'ing, so not the best time for me to be posting here, but yeah, I hate hate hate how judgmental people here can be. Obviously not everyone, or I'd have left long ago.
Wow, I'm really not seeing where you're coming from. She didn't say *anything* about YOU being the one with herpes - just that it didn't 100% of the time mean a c-section had to happen. It didn't seem at all like she was talking down to you - simply saying "hey, that's not always true" (disagreement does not mean talking down to). Yes, we're here to vent (hence the title), and I think a lot of us HAVE talked to people who were obviously uneducated about childbirth, like when I talked to my friend who declared homebirth too risky - and fwiw, I remembered exactly what she said after I posted this and she said (regarding why she'd never homebirth) "it just isn't safe" - I know for a fact she's uneducated about that b/c if she had done her research, she wouldn't be able to make a comment like that b/c the research shows otherwise (plus, from knowing her I happen to know that she hasn't researched birth in general)! But instead of taking some time to learn the facts, she dismissed it. Do you see what I'm saying?

You know, if it were me (or most people in general, I would think) who had a friend who had a serious interest or lots of experience in something that I wanted to learn more about, I'd ASK them information about it. But when it comes to pregnancy and birth, people tend to defer to the professionals, OB's in this case, who really aren't trained at all (at least in the US) to be knowledgable about normal, boring, routine birth and supporting healthy pregnancies with good nutrition, etc. No, they're surgical specialists designed to look for problems to fix, so really they aren't the people most women she speak to FIRST about pregnancy and birth. If they're needed, hooray they're there, but I think what's getting a lot of us is that they tend to (and I'm generalizing here obviously) espouse poor information - non-medically based information in many cases - and women suffer at their hands b/c they simply just trust what they hear and don't think to or don't want to scratch the surface and learn for themselves. To me, as a parent, that's a shame. Parents shouldn't take anything at faith regarding information they hear, even if it comes from someone like me who thinks they know better then a lot of OB's - the parent should still do their own homework and make whatever decision they THEN feel comfortable with. That's all I ask of people - make educated choices, even if they're not the same I'd make. I can respect THAT. But that's just my opinion. And I'm here to vent.

Mama to four remarkable kiddos, all born at home.
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#33 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 12:48 PM
 
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Sometimes you just can't get through to people. My sister had preeclampsia in her first pregnancy that led to an induction at 38 weeks. She's now pregnant again and has GD on top of everything else (actually I think it's full blown diabetes but she's kind of in denial). I've talked until I'm blue in the face about good nutrition, sent her information on the Brewer Diet, talked about making sure to get a high protein intake, etc. And she nods and smiles, and then the next time I see her, laughs about how the previous week all she had for breakfast was Pop Tarts and Cocoa Puffs. Then she'll say things like, "Man, I hate getting headaches during pregnancy. I bet my blood pressure is too high again. I just know I'm going to wind up on bedrest." :

I give up.
<nak>

Okay, I've been following this thread and I have to pipe up about this one. What gets me is that mainstream people are sooo judgemental about natural choices, ie: "Homebirth is too risky. VBAC is too risky. Diet has nothing to do with it." etc.... but then they do things like that - blatantly disregard serious signs of problems in pregnancy (headache with previous pre-e or eating crap with GD and laughing at healthy choices) and then risk very real life-threatening complications. And what they don't see is that pre-e (or whatever) is only one part of the life-threatening complications - there is also the increased risk they are subjecting themselves and their babies to by increasing the odds that they will be induced/undergo interventions/have c/s.

As someone who has had pre-e in 3 out of 4 births, this just really irks me. With my fourth, I tried everything I could to avoid pre-e but it wasn't to be, even though it had all worked with my third. Maybe it's my experiences that make me want to slap people who disregard the risks invovled. An issue close to my heart, I suppose.

It's no wonder mainstream people think pregnancy is a medical condition. Societal norms are setting them up for failure. Like cocoa puffs is anything close to something that should be consumed for breakfast by anyone - never mind someone trying to have a healthy pg! But hey - it's fortified with vitamins so it must be good!

<sigh>

Thanks to those of you who keep trying to get the word out. In time, we'll be believed because the pendulum has to swing the other way, right? A good friend of mine says that it takes 7 generations to make a huge shift in societal norms (she usually says this in regards to breastfeeding but I think it would apply to birth as well) so we just have to keep plugging away. The hard work will pay off.
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#34 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 01:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by angelcat View Post
I should leave this site. Sure there are NFL stuff I am interested in, but I just can't hack the judgmental people here.
Like you? Seems to me you're making some pretty judgmental assumptions about how people are saying things.

I've been in these conversations, the natural birth person is stating facts calmly and the person whose only experience with birth was when they came out of their mother is literally saying "you're crazy".

"Educating" is the term for giving people information they don't have. Lurk on the VBAC board for a bit and find out how many women wish to God that someone had educated them before birth.

But you know, you're right, it's far better not to make waves, far better to let people live in blissful ignorance until the real world slaps them across the face and then bite your tongue off to keep from even hinting that there could have been a better way.
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#35 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 02:15 PM
 
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Chill out everyone. Angelcat was just expressing her feelings like we all do. This is a vent thread so she was venting too.

I am still in the process of learning about the non-mainstream way of doing things. I am an educated woman who chooses to be informed on the decisions I make rather than have them fed to me by the majority of the population. I can kinda see where Angelcat is coming from. I guess she's saying to just give everyone the benefit of the doubt. It is hard to be the minority on this site when you do follow any particular mainstream idea. For the most part I've found everyone to be open to my thoughts but there have been a few times when I've felt judged. We just all have to remember that when we learn something that could possibly benefit others not to "Lord" it over them (disclaimer: not that anyone has done that here).

But...I will say, that I can also understand the initial vent b/c I read so much especially being pg now and I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Girl, you read too much!" Are you kidding? You're telling me to stop reading? And then I am thinking "This is why I am reading b/c if I take advice from someone who tells me to NOT read then where will that lead me".

A friend at work emailed me this story and I'll post it here. This is why we shouldn't get so mad at people for not listening to us. People are who they are and sometimes it takes a life experience for them to question their methods.

this is sooo funny!!!!

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. In the cage, hang
a banana on a string and put stairs under it. Before long, a
monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the
banana.

As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the monkeys
with cold water. After a while, another monkey will make an
attempt with the same response -- all of the monkeys are
sprayed with cold water. Keep this up for several days.

Turn off the cold water. If, later, another monkey tries to
climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it even
though no water sprays them.

Now, remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a
new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to
climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the other monkeys
attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that
if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and
replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs
and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the
punishment with enthusiasm.

Replace the third original monkey with a new one. The new
one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the

four monkeys that beat him have no idea why they were not
permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in
the beating of the newest monkey.

After replacing the fourth and fifth original monkeys, all the
monkeys which have been sprayed with cold water have
been replaced. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again
approaches the stairs.

Why not?

"Because that's the way it's always been done around here."

Ph.D. Mama to Anaiah born 10/06/07 and Mathias born 11/14/09 and Wife to my cocoa puff DH.
My Cup Runs Over Daily!

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#36 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 02:54 PM
 
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nak. to the pp's who have yet to give birth, good for you! i had the same crap with people telling DH and me i was 'going to be begging for it'-an epidural. i so did not need one. jerks. : i mean, there is nothing supportive or kind about scaring firsttimers.

dh likes to talk babies and pregnancy at his work-methinks he'd rather be home with his babies . a new lady came in and was nervous about her upcoming GD test. DH says, you know you can decline it. the woman next to him gets all huffy and tells the first lady, 'don't listen to anything he says. he doesn't count because his wife was too crazy to take pain meds'.

yeah, i understand the op vent. our opinion doesn't even count because we made our own choices. :
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#37 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 04:03 PM
 
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I think you'll all understand where I'm coming from so I'm going to take a minute to vent away here (please join in if you have a vent!). I love pregnancy and birth. I've had all my kids (four - all healthy, full-term babies), including a set of twins, safely at home. I've studied childbirth extensively, even teaching a couple of Bradley Method series before determining that I did not want to teach for them, and freely offer information to anyone I know who is expecting (books, dvds, internet links, and just plain answering questions). BUT, does *anyone* ever seem to give a crap about what I say? No. Does anyone give me any credit whatsoever for perhaps having a clue what I'm talking about? No. Do they even think that maybe - just maybe - after all these very successful pregnancies and births that I might just have a few tips to share? No. They all think I'm a loon (or so I gather - one of my friends simply says that she'd never consider homebirth b/c it's just too risky - ha!) or perhaps that I was just plain lucky with my births. I guess not having the Dr. title in front of my name makes me worthless in this arena.

Anyway, a week or so back, dh comes home from work and says, "Oh, you're gonna be so nuts when I tell you this." And he proceeds to tell me about his co-worker's wife, who is 37 weeks pg with their first child (co-worker's 2nd though). The baby is breech and the doctor says she has GD so she'll need a scheduled c-section b/c obviously there's no way to turn a baby at this point (much less give the baby a chance to be born breech) and it will be too darn big anyway - I mean, they've confirmed this with u/s (note dripping sarcasm here). To make it worse, dh's co-worker's wife has been testing her blood sugar 3x a day at home at the proper times and has never - not ONCE - had it test high! Only the doctor has been able to get a risk factor out of her. Interesting. Soooo, I vent away to dh (basically the first paragraph I wrote here) and say things like, "Why don't they try to turn the baby then? Try the Webster manuever, moxibustion, anything?" He says if I give him info he'll pass it along to them but really he doesn't think it will do any good b/c he says they know about me and my birth knowledge and if there's something they want to ask me about they would do it. I told him, "Mark my words - that baby will be 6 lbs!" and I base this purely on experience of hearing of other gigantic GD babies - they always seem to be so small!

Well, my dh was off for 4 days straight when he told me this and by the time he's back at work, the baby has been born. He comes home and says, "Here are some words you love to hear: You were right. The baby was born via c-section and it was 6 lbs." (on the dot!) {{{sigh}}} He wasn't able to give me any other details (there was just a note up at work with the baby's stats) so I don't know if the baby is doing alright or not. I worry since it was a bit on the early side and not from spontaneous labor from what I understand. I'm sure you all feel my pain here. Why do people refuse to be educated about these things??? Like my friend who claims that homebirth is too risky - she's so well researched on so many after-the-baby-is-born things, but just falls short on the stuff that I guess would fall under a "doctors" care. Why does it have to be like this???
"I told you so"s aren't very satisfying when someone got cut up.

BTW, I listen to you. That is why I am here. Not just you, but all of you experienced mamas. Even those who haven't had babies yet but might have read something useful to me.

Leigh, mama to Rostislav homeborn Aug 9 2007, and Oksana homeborn Feb 24 2011.
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#38 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 04:17 PM
 
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I've been in these conversations, the natural birth person is stating facts calmly and the person whose only experience with birth was when they came out of their mother is literally saying "you're crazy".
I've given birth, and I never said anyone was crazy, so no sure where this is from.

If you're not talking about this thread, then yeah, I've seen that from both sides on other boards. It's annoying.
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#39 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 05:22 PM
 
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I've given birth, and I never said anyone was crazy, so no sure where this is from.

If you're not talking about this thread, then yeah, I've seen that from both sides on other boards. It's annoying.
I don't think Sapphire meant you on this one.

Ph.D. Mama to Anaiah born 10/06/07 and Mathias born 11/14/09 and Wife to my cocoa puff DH.
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#40 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 07:32 PM
 
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But...I will say, that I can also understand the initial vent b/c I read so much especially being pg now and I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Girl, you read too much!" Are you kidding? You're telling me to stop reading? And then I am thinking "This is why I am reading b/c if I take advice from someone who tells me to NOT read then where will that lead me".
I had this experience too. WTF? When did reading become a bad thing?

I sometimes wonder if women that choose not to read or question mainstream ideas feel very threatened by those of that do. Especially if they have had a birth that was less than what they were lead to believe it would be and now they have some hidden misgivings about their previous choices.

It seemed like the people I talked to about birth that were the most condescending to me about my natural choices were the ones that were induced, c-sectioned or had a baby spend a day or two in the NICU for monitoring. I actually had one person wish a c-section on me in a very spiteful way (because of my confidence in home birth).

One happy momma joy.gif to a very spirited little girl dust.gif, her tough little brother superhero.gif, and a happy little suprise late April 2012 stork-suprise.gif. Wife to an overworked and under paid husband geek.gif.

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#41 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 08:33 PM
 
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2+twins you are so high and mighty. Who do you think you are trying to educate people about birth choices?

Blessed mama of four
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#42 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 08:45 PM
 
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It drives my husband nuts when people tell him "I don't read" as if it is just a hobby. Don't you care about your health? Don't you care about your finances? Don't you care about what is going on in the world around you? He can't understand how people can not read about these things that affect them.

Leigh, mama to Rostislav homeborn Aug 9 2007, and Oksana homeborn Feb 24 2011.
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#43 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 10:53 PM
 
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It drives my husband nuts when people tell him "I don't read" as if it is just a hobby. Don't you care about your health? Don't you care about your finances? Don't you care about what is going on in the world around you? He can't understand how people can not read about these things that affect them.
Well, there are people who learn better by talking to people, but I think in general "I don't read" is actually "I can't be bothered to learn."
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#44 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 11:01 PM
 
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I've given birth, and I never said anyone was crazy, so no sure where this is from.

If you're not talking about this thread, then yeah, I've seen that from both sides on other boards. It's annoying.
Yep, I wasn't saying that you'd ever said anyone was crazy.

Just pointing out that the natural birth movement has a long way to go before it comes close to the level of judgementalism embraced by society norm of medicalized birth. And it bothers me that anytime someone complains about the dichotomy of standards of behavior, there's a post (by you in this case, by others in other threads) dismissing the complainer as judgemental.
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#45 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 11:14 PM
 
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I had this experience too. WTF? When did reading become a bad thing?

I sometimes wonder if women that choose not to read or question mainstream ideas feel very threatened by those of that do. Especially if they have had a birth that was less than what they were lead to believe it would be and now they have some hidden misgivings about their previous choices.

It seemed like the people I talked to about birth that were the most condescending to me about my natural choices were the ones that were induced, c-sectioned or had a baby spend a day or two in the NICU for monitoring. I actually had one person wish a c-section on me in a very spiteful way (because of my confidence in home birth).
Misery loves company?

This is something I've noticed in general, not in all cases, but more of a trend:
Natural Birth person: I had a wonderful birth! It was fabulous! Everyone should have such joy! This is what I did, these are the books I read, here are other things I've heard that might help you have the same wonderful experience I had. Here is research about why it's physiologically good for the baby. Would you like my phone number/email address so you can ask more questions?

Status Quo person: You want to have a baby without drugs?!? That'll last all of 20 minutes into your labor. With the first real contraction you'll be begging for the epidural.


Now, who am I going to believe has my best interest in mind? The person who's trying to help everyone be as happy as she is, or the person who's trying to feel happy by making everyone else worse off in comparison?

And the worst part? Status Quo person has no.idea.that's.what.they're.doing.
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#46 of 53 Old 04-20-2007, 11:19 PM
 
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2+twins you are so high and mighty. Who do you think you are trying to educate people about birth choices?
no kidding... go to med school for 7 years and then tell me how to have my babies....
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#47 of 53 Old 04-21-2007, 12:50 AM
 
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It drives my husband nuts when people tell him "I don't read" as if it is just a hobby. Don't you care about your health? Don't you care about your finances? Don't you care about what is going on in the world around you? He can't understand how people can not read about these things that affect them.
You have got to be kidding me. People actually say that?! Well that explains alot!

If it makes anyone feel any better my family dr has complained to me about this same thing, and hes a dr...you know one of the almighty. So I don't think its necessarily that its because we don't have some initials behind our name, or what we do is considered on the fringe. Some people just don't care.

Expecting #9.  Always busy hsing.
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#48 of 53 Old 04-21-2007, 12:55 AM
 
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BUT, does *anyone* ever seem to give a crap about what I say? No. Does anyone give me any credit whatsoever for perhaps having a clue what I'm talking about? No. Do they even think that maybe - just maybe - after all these very successful pregnancies and births that I might just have a few tips to share? No. They all think I'm a loon (or so I gather - one of my friends simply says that she'd never consider homebirth b/c it's just too risky - ha!) or perhaps that I was just plain lucky with my births. I guess not having the Dr. title in front of my name makes me worthless in this arena.
I care, I care!!!

DH and i just found out we're having a baby, and i reeeeeeeeeeeally want to know more about homebirthing, so i will GLADLY absorb any information tossed my way!!!

Cassie
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#49 of 53 Old 04-21-2007, 03:05 AM
 
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I've given birth, and I never said anyone was crazy, so no sure where this is from.

If you're not talking about this thread, then yeah, I've seen that from both sides on other boards. It's annoying.
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I don't think Sapphire meant you on this one.
And honestly, I was not referring to you either, I was referring to everybody, the collective you. Nor was I trying to be condescending. If one person now gets what I am saying and avoids the pain and heartache I went through, well, that would be a positive thing. I am not the shove it in your face type person either, but when someone speaks out with misinformation I will speak up. I don't like seeing other women getting steamrolled.

Mama to my spirited J, and L, my homebirth: baby especially DTaP, MMR (family vax injuries)
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#50 of 53 Old 04-21-2007, 03:25 AM
 
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When I refer to "educating", what I really mean is being a voice for safe, natural, peaceful birth.

If I do not speak up for natural birth, who will? The OBs around here, with their near-40% c-section rates and 97% epidural rates certainly will not. The swarms of other friends an family members, with their horror stories that are mostly not factual or representative of true birth, only make matters worse.

The fearmongering by these people and the entertainment industry just encases these first time mothers in a glass box of never wanting to even think about natural birth. It causes them to fear breaking out of that box so badly that they are willing to accept lies as fact.

I feel that my place is to give them information that they may not even think to look for. They've had this overwhelming majority of advice push them into thinking "hook me up to the epi at 37 weeks!". So, something like homebirth is so far out of the box that they mistakenly think only indigenous tribes still practice it.

And as a c-section mom who honestly thought that I had done a TON of research regarding my birth choices, I can definitely say that not one person ever even *mentioned* birthing without pain meds, much less outside of the hospital. Who knows if I would have listened, but wow, I cannot even begin to express how badly I wish someone would have. I had to find out the hard way how this messed up system works.
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#51 of 53 Old 04-21-2007, 05:59 AM
 
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This is an awesome thread and I hope it doesn't go away because of any....uh..tension. : It's been really affirmative to me.

What about this one - what about the people who say you are setting yourself up for disappointment or that they don't want to read about birth because they don't want to set themselves up (or scare themselves)? I never know what to say in those conversations, usually i just shrug.

I hear so many people say "yeah, i would like a natural birth but if it doesn't happen, thats fine too" and that one statement is their "preparation". Not that everyone needs to prepare - none of my friends did (all natural births), but then they all had situations with awesome midwives and support systems. If someone DOES NOT want a natural birth, that's none of my business, but when people talk to me about mine, saying they would like to do the same but aren't interested in seeking information about it, or "set themselves up for disappointment", i'm a little at a loss regarding whether or not to give advice. Usually i can sneak a little in though.
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#52 of 53 Old 04-21-2007, 08:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SwissMama View Post
I hear so many people say "yeah, i would like a natural birth but if it doesn't happen, thats fine too" and that one statement is their "preparation".
Ya know, I had a planned homebirth turned transport and cesarean with my last kid, and I had NEVER thought of the possibility that I would have had anything other than a normal, natural birth with that one. I was heartbroken, and devastated, and went through over a year of PPD because of the after-effects of having to have a cesarean. Of course, with that one, I didn't educate myself on all my options for birth either-- I just shifted the burden of planning for my birth from an OB to a midwife.

This time around, I have a caveat. "Yeah, I am planning for a natural birth, but if it doesn't happen, I will know that I did everything I could. If I end up with another cesarean, I will know that it was necessary." Because I'm educating myself, through reading, researching, preparing, planning, and listening to the experiences of people just like 2+twins, who have been there and done that. So, it isn't that natural childbirth is the end-all, be-all of my existence, but if I don't even learn what all the options are (from people OTHER than just the doctors who have a financial and legal and power interest in it), then I'm a cog in someone else's wheel.

Wife of one and mom of five, including my HBAC twins!
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#53 of 53 Old 04-21-2007, 09:35 AM
 
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When I refer to "educating", what I really mean is being a voice for safe, natural, peaceful birth.

If I do not speak up for natural birth, who will? The OBs around here, with their near-40% c-section rates and 97% epidural rates (1) certainly will not. The swarms of other friends an family members, with their horror stories that are mostly not factual or representative of true birth, only make matters worse.

The fearmongering by these people and the entertainment industry just encases these first time mothers in a glass box of never wanting to even think about natural birth.(2) It causes them to fear breaking out of that box so badly that they are willing to accept lies as fact.

I feel that my place is to give them information that they may not even think to look for.(3) They've had this overwhelming majority of advice push them into thinking "hook me up to the epi at 37 weeks!". So, something like homebirth is so far out of the box that they mistakenly think only indigenous tribes still practice it.

And as a c-section mom who honestly thought that I had done a TON of research regarding my birth choices, I can definitely say that not one person ever even *mentioned* birthing without pain meds, much less outside of the hospital. Who knows if I would have listened, but wow, I cannot even begin to express how badly I wish someone would have. I had to find out the hard way how this messed up system works.
(1) 97%? That low? I figured it was more like 99.9%.

(2) Keep in mind that there are 2 meanings of natural birth in use these days. One means "without interventions and pain meds" while the other means "not a c/s." Many people these days are calling ANY vaginal birth "natural."

(3) Thanks to people like you, who let people know there are alternatives, I am going to have my homebirth. Keep up the good work!

Leigh, mama to Rostislav homeborn Aug 9 2007, and Oksana homeborn Feb 24 2011.
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