Watch your language: "normal" birth - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#91 of 106 Old 06-07-2007, 07:25 PM
 
ericswifey27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eviesingleton View Post
How can anyone say that they were not born?

That's just silly. Yes, I said, SILLY
I think it's silly to reinterpret how you came into the world as something less than a birth because it does not fit your contemporary preceptions about what a birth to be is SILLY

:
Quote:
Originally Posted by eviesingleton View Post


So, go ahead and deny that you were birthed just because it doesn't fit your ideals.

:
You can believe anything you want about what birth means to you, but I am confident it is against User Agreement to belittle someone this way

Mama to my spirited J, and L, my homebirth: baby especially DTaP, MMR (family vax injuries)
ericswifey27 is offline  
#92 of 106 Old 06-07-2007, 07:26 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 27,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Okay - let's try this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by eviesingleton View Post
According to the OED:

1. The bearing of offspring. Viewed as an act of the mother: a. Bringing forth, giving birth. Now chiefly in ‘(several young) at a birth.’
Not an act of my mother, nor me. I arrived, as did both my siblings and all three of my children, by an act of a surgeon.

Quote:
2. fig. Of things: Origin, origination, commencement of existence, beginning.
I don't see where this applies to children, honestly. My commencement of existence was when the sperm met the egg, not when the surgeon pulled me out.

Quote:
3. a. The product of bearing, that which is born; offspring, child; young (of animals).
This one I'm having trouble following - were you posting definitions of "born" or "birth" or what? I don't see where "offspring" or "child" = "birth" or "born". And, I'm not "that which is born" (although if we're talking dehumanizing, the word "that" in the definition certainly goes a ways in that direction!).

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
#93 of 106 Old 06-07-2007, 07:28 PM
 
felix23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on a peaceful pond
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
When talking about birth, I don't think normal or natural would work, the words have too many definitions for different people. For me a natural birth is one that is not induced and there is no pain meds. I can't figure out why some people insist that this cannot happen in the hospital. My mom had 5 children all in the hospital and all with no meds or inductions. She always says that she had a natural birth. What makes her birth any less natural than someone who gave birth at a birth center in a whirlpool tub. Last time I checked there were not whirlpools growing in nature. So it is really hard to define the word natural. The same goes for normal. Normal to some means everything but a c-section, and normal to others means giving birth at home unassisted. I think people will just have to say exactly what sort of birth they had. That will be the only way to avoid confusion about what type of birth a person had.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
felix23 is offline  
#94 of 106 Old 06-07-2007, 07:56 PM
 
mamabadger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,840
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Okay - let's try this:

Not an act of my mother, nor me. I arrived, as did both my siblings and all three of my children, by an act of a surgeon.
That does emphasize the difference, or one of the differences.
Let's take "birth" as an active verb, which it also is.
Woman A is in the process of pushing a baby out in the traditional manner.
Woman B is unconscious on an operating table while a doctor cuts open her abdomen with a scalpel.
Are both women doing the same thing? Aren't they at least different enough to require separate names?
mamabadger is offline  
#95 of 106 Old 06-07-2007, 09:21 PM
 
angelcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eviesingleton View Post
I never said they shouldn't. In fact, I believe that when they insist on calling it a "birth" rather than a cesarian or a section, they are subverting the way that the medical industrial complext generally refers to it.

I believe that doctors and nurses do consider it a birth, but generally the term "birth" is left out of the terminology. I think it does some good to bring it back, not for the sake of equating c-sections with vaginal births, but to remind the mother that it is still a birth.

I think you can have both, a movement that actively tries to reduce uncessary c-sections and one that, when a c-section take must take place, does not diminish the fact of the "birthing" that is happening.

Sorry, I compleletely misread your post. Turbs out we're actually on the same side!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eviesingleton View Post
How can anyone say that they were not born?

That's just silly. Yes, I said, SILLY
I think it's silly to reinterpret how you came into the world as something less than a birth because it does not fit your contemporary preceptions about what a birth to be is SILLY

:
I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
That does emphasize the difference, or one of the differences.
Let's take "birth" as an active verb, which it also is.
Woman A is in the process of pushing a baby out in the traditional manner.
Woman B is unconscious on an operating table while a doctor cuts open her abdomen with a scalpel.
Are both women doing the same thing? Aren't they at least different enough to require separate names?
What about women who were unconscious or basically when the had a vaginal birth? is that not a birth? What about my mom? Was it not a birth when the nurse had to push on her stomach, and the dr. had to use forceps, because she was too tired to push? (That was in the '70's, and they still used demerol past early labour then)

And for the record, I was very much conscious during my c-section BIRTH!!!
angelcat is offline  
#96 of 106 Old 06-07-2007, 10:47 PM
 
chinaKat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

When I say I wasn't born, I'm not trying to change anything. I'm simply expressing my feelings about it. I've never told my mom I feel this way - I thought it would hurt her too much. Actually, I never told anybody about it until very recently...maybe I knew people would call it "silly", instead of trying to understand that my mom's surgery 39 years ago cost me a whole lot on an emotional level.
I mean this in the nicest, most supportive, trying to be helpful and not judgemental way... I think you might really benefit from talking to a counselor or somebody about this.

I don't think your feelings are "silly" at all -- but they clearly cause you some angst. You might want to try to work that out in therapy, it could help.

<hugs>
chinaKat is offline  
#97 of 106 Old 06-07-2007, 11:06 PM
 
JanetF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I use "spontaneous physiological birth" to describe a birth which progresses to the timetable of the mother and baby and does not encompass interventions. Define "interventions" as you will, but I am trying to imply birth that happens under it's own steam without what I define as interventions.

I find it interesting that a lot of the hospital produced literature I read describes "caesarean birth" but "vaginal delivery". Those could be interpreted a few ways.

I wish we could talk about these issues without women going on the defensive. I've had a caesarean too and I just don't take offence when we talk about the negatives involved. I am not my caesarean. I am a woman who got caught in a system and had surgery at the end of it. It doesn't make me bad, or mean that anything about my child or my parenting is lacking - it's a fact. I had surgery. We really need to look to ourselves when something provokes a strong reaction in us. I don't think of my caesarean as ME birthing my child but you know what? I don't mind if other women feel differently. That's their business, and I'm sure they don't mind how I feel about my experience since it has absolutely no impact on their lives whatsoever. I really fail to see how a discussion of generalities around how each of us defines something can be a personal attack on anyone's birth. It's just not!
JanetF is offline  
#98 of 106 Old 06-08-2007, 12:25 PM
 
Lady Lilya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 3,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
When talking about birth, I don't think normal or natural would work, the words have too many definitions for different people. For me a natural birth is one that is not induced and there is no pain meds. I can't figure out why some people insist that this cannot happen in the hospital. My mom had 5 children all in the hospital and all with no meds or inductions. She always says that she had a natural birth. What makes her birth any less natural than someone who gave birth at a birth center in a whirlpool tub. Last time I checked there were not whirlpools growing in nature. So it is really hard to define the word natural. The same goes for normal. Normal to some means everything but a c-section, and normal to others means giving birth at home unassisted. I think people will just have to say exactly what sort of birth they had. That will be the only way to avoid confusion about what type of birth a person had.
My grandmother, in the 1940s, had 3 births in a hospital with no induction, no pain meds, no epi. Just entirely on her own while the OB observed and encouraged her.

My mother, in the 1980s, had 2 births were she could not find a single OB that would allow her to not have an epi. She also was required to have an IV. In the case of my sister, there was also AROM (she went in at 11 for a check-up, and their machine declared her in labor, and they wouldn't let her go home....they got tired of waiting, even though she insisted that it would happen at 8-9pm, and broke her waters....she was furious). Not a bit of this was necessary. I wouldn't call this birth natural, but it could have been a lot worse as neither of us was exposed to any drugs during the births.

I am sure that in 2007 there are many hospitals where you can have a natural birth, completely free from intervention (i don't consider passive observation/monitoring to be intervention). But, there are also many hospitals where you would go in EXPECTING to have a natural birth only to have interventions forced upon you. If you go to a hospital, you are likely to have to FIGHT for your natural birth, at a time when you are least suited to fighting.

So, i wouldn't say that the location dictates how natural the birth is. I would say that some locations are more suited to facilitating a natural birth.

--------

Someone mentioned something about the ways the medical communities refer to births. I was under the impression they refer to them as "deliveries", which de-emphasizes the woman's role in it, and puts all the focus on the efforts of the OB. I like the terminology that the woman "births" the baby and the MW "catches" the baby. Doctors seem to think they are "delivering," but if you compare to other uses of the word "deliver," such as a package from UPS, the doctors' function would be analogous to unpacking, regardless of whether they unpack via the vagina or abdomen. The use of the word "deliver" seems to imply that the woman is the box, or other packaging. I don't like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angelcat
What about women who were unconscious or basically when the had a vaginal birth? is that not a birth? What about my mom? Was it not a birth when the nurse had to push on her stomach, and the dr. had to use forceps, because she was too tired to push? (That was in the '70's, and they still used demerol past early labour then)

And for the record, I was very much conscious during my c-section BIRTH!!!
If we are going to get technical, I would say that it is not a matter of consciousness, but a matter of how much the woman's body has to do with the outcome vs how much the doctor's actions has to do with it.

When women were drugged to unconsciousness and the baby came out vaginally, it was the woman's body -- her uterus and other muscles -- that did the work.

When a woman has a c/s, the docs bypass all the woman's natural functions, and she can't have much role in the outcome.

Perhaps we need a sliding scale with 100% mother control on one side, and 100% doc control on the other? We could make it all numerical and take out the semantics entirely!

---------

I have been trying to compare these ideas, conceptually, to other ideas. Imagine I cook a dinner for hours, but then something comes up that prevents me from attending to it at the last minute and I need my husband to transfer it from the pot to the serving bowl and put the bowl on the table. I still did the cooking, but not the serving. That doesn't in any way take away from the fact that a nice dinner now exists. It doesn't make the dinner any less good. But, it is disappointing to me that I couldn't take my project all the way to completion by myself.

I wonder if this is conceptually analogous to birth, or if it is too much of a stretch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaKat View Post
I mean this in the nicest, most supportive, trying to be helpful and not judgemental way... I think you might really benefit from talking to a counselor or somebody about this.

I don't think your feelings are "silly" at all -- but they clearly cause you some angst. You might want to try to work that out in therapy, it could help.

<hugs>
I agree that her feelings are not silly, but I don't know if it is a matter for therapy. Most people have something in their lives that didn't go the way they feel it should have, and have strong feelings about that, but it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't dealing with it effectively or that they should try to put it behind them. Holding on to our experiences can be very valuable in motivating us and contributing to our future choices.

For example, I had a very traumatic experience about 8 years ago being separated from my husband for several months. It still brings me to tears almost every time I think about it. As a result, I make choices now such as giving a very high priority to maintaining our relationship because I know being together is very important to me. It also affects how I interact with others, like being more sympathetic to them when they are separated from loved ones, and discouraging them from making choices that will lead them to experience this pain.

Leigh, mama to Rostislav homeborn Aug 9 2007, and Oksana homeborn Feb 24 2011.
Lady Lilya is offline  
#99 of 106 Old 06-08-2007, 12:28 PM
 
Zan&Zav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fantasy Island
Posts: 435
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
May I respectfully ask how you plan to handle it if your son doesn't feel that he was born? Will you accuse him of dehumanizing himself?

Nobody pushed a label on me. Nobody ever referred to my arrival here as not being a birth. That's my feeling, as a c-section baby. That's my reality with respect to how I joined my family. It has diddly-squat to do with what the doctors, my mom, or anybody else have to say about it.
I hope that my son will realize that a birth is a birth however it has to happen. His was not a planned csection, it was necessary for both of us to live. But I certainly don't feel he was extracted, he was born in a way that was necessary, while not optimal. He was born from my body. I still birthed him, but with the necessary assistance of others.
Zan&Zav is offline  
#100 of 106 Old 06-08-2007, 12:39 PM
 
lyttlewon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,307
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow Lady Lilya that was an excellent post!
lyttlewon is offline  
#101 of 106 Old 06-08-2007, 01:29 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 27,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaKat View Post
I mean this in the nicest, most supportive, trying to be helpful and not judgemental way... I think you might really benefit from talking to a counselor or somebody about this.

I don't think your feelings are "silly" at all -- but they clearly cause you some angst. You might want to try to work that out in therapy, it could help.
Thanks for your concern, but I'd rather not talk to a counselor about anything. If I were willing to do that, I'd probably be looking for one to talk to about my own c-sections, as they cause me a lot more angst than the one that brought about my arrival here.

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
#102 of 106 Old 06-08-2007, 01:38 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 27,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Lilya View Post
I agree that her feelings are not silly, but I don't know if it is a matter for therapy. Most people have something in their lives that didn't go the way they feel it should have, and have strong feelings about that, but it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't dealing with it effectively or that they should try to put it behind them. Holding on to our experiences can be very valuable in motivating us and contributing to our future choices.
Thank you. If I were to see a counselor about everything in my life that causes me "angst", I wouldn't have a whole lot of time left to live. I'd be in there about the sexual abuse, the c-sections, the emotionally abusive marriage, the divorce (even with his behavior, it was hard to walk away from 15 years of my life), the miscarriages, the infertility - even the high school bullying...I probably wouldn't even get around to my feelings about my "delivery" until I was in my third or fourth year! Every one of these things affects the way I live my life every single day...and a lot of that pain in my past makes my current life better, not worse.

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
#103 of 106 Old 06-08-2007, 05:00 PM
 
Lady Lilya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 3,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Thank you. If I were to see a counselor about everything in my life that causes me "angst", I wouldn't have a whole lot of time left to live. I'd be in there about the sexual abuse, the c-sections, the emotionally abusive marriage, the divorce (even with his behavior, it was hard to walk away from 15 years of my life), the miscarriages, the infertility - even the high school bullying...I probably wouldn't even get around to my feelings about my "delivery" until I was in my third or fourth year! Every one of these things affects the way I live my life every single day...and a lot of that pain in my past makes my current life better, not worse.
I think it is very important to our emotional health not to dwell too much in a victim attitude, but let our unfortunate circumstances empower us instead.

Leigh, mama to Rostislav homeborn Aug 9 2007, and Oksana homeborn Feb 24 2011.
Lady Lilya is offline  
#104 of 106 Old 06-09-2007, 02:01 AM
 
e_mom_e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
That's the way I use the terminology, too. However, although I use "vaginal birth" I'm not entirely happy with it. It implies that there's another kind of birth that's not vaginal. To me, "birth" means the baby comes out the vagina. Otherwise, it's not birth, it's a surgical procedure.

maybe you should get out your websters....

"American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source

birth (bûrth)
n.

1. The emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother.
2. The act or process of bearing young; parturition.
3. The circumstances or conditions relating to this event, as its time or location.
4. The set of characteristics or circumstances received from one's ancestors; inheritance.
5. Origin; extraction."



I don't see the word vagina in that

and for the RECORD, I had an UNMEDICATED, doula attended, husband attented/coached, NATURAL vaginal delivery...IN A HOSPITAL!

So does that mean he was not NATURAL as another mama said just walking into a hospital means it's un natural...jeez I mean you are going to put down a mama that actually had a natural birth but because it was in a place that you don't APPROVE of, it's suddenly not natural.

:

good grief, do you people have anything better to argue about...why not just SUPPORT people who have at least made the step to doing AS MUCH as they can to not have medical interventions or a c-section instead of nitpicking every stinking thing that isn't to your STANDARDS of a "natural", or "normal" or "unmedicated" birth. or whatever the heck you want to call it.

A baby that was conceived and came from the mom whether or not it was removed surgically or came through the birthing canal is BY DEFINITION BORN!
e_mom_e is offline  
#105 of 106 Old 06-09-2007, 03:32 AM
 
soulyluna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: where the oaks meet the redwoods
Posts: 304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
seriously. so many times i have told my birth story, and i say that it was a relatively fast, normal birth, and then they ask, "did you have a c-section or an epidural?"

:
soulyluna is offline  
#106 of 106 Old 06-09-2007, 12:23 PM
 
georgia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tl;dr
Posts: 25,918
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have asked everyone to please focus on the OP's original post and to avoid discussing the "born" issue. I believe I asked twice.

Quote:
I asked, gently, that we not debate whether or not a c/s is a birth. It's hurtful and offensive to many members of this community, and we don't wish to go any further debating the issue on this thread.
At this point, I'm closing this thread to new posts to avoid further issue at this point in time. Please PM me if there are any questions. Thanks

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
georgia is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off