Reasons to refuse a hep-lock? - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
MyLittleWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 696
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I will be delivering at a University Hospital in about 6 weeks. Being a teaching hospital with lots of fancy-shmancy equipment, this hospital has a rebutation of being a little intervention happy (more so than your avarge hospital). I really don't have a choice on where to deliver, this is the only place my insurance will cover, and we can't afford anything else. While talking to my doula, who has worked with my OB and this hospital extensively, she mentioned that hospital policy is to always have an IV, and that they will do just a hep-lock if you insist, but arn't very happy about it. I was hoping to avoid haveing even a hep-lock. My doula is terrific and will back me up 100% with what ever I decide, but has warned me that this issue will be a fight from the get go. So my question: is it really that important to refuse a hep-lock? Is this something that I should put my foot down about, or is this a place that for the sake of a peaceful birth experience and nurses that don't hate me I should just let go?

Amanda, mama to Owen (11/05) and Connor (10/07) and Aria (12/09) Recycled Wool Longies and Reusable Baggies
MyLittleWarrior is offline  
#2 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 01:05 PM
 
alegna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 44,408
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
*I* would put my foot down. But I would not birth in a hospital unless it was an emergency.

-Angela
alegna is offline  
#3 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 01:23 PM
 
Nan'sMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,498
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not sure what I'd do...but I'm a homebirther as well. I think that I'd refuse though, since it makes it easier for them to give you drugs quickly and without your consent. Also make sure your doula says no residents...she can infer you have a history that makes you uncomfortable around people in this situation...or at least men.

Oh, and I think you have to get past worrying about people hating you. If they do, so what?
Nan'sMom is offline  
#4 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 01:26 PM
 
Goatriffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
With my planned hospital VBAC I consented to a heplock because I decided it wasn't worth fighting over. It wasn't going to interfere with me moving around and was minimally invasive. I was going to fight them on lots of other things like continuous monitoring and eye drops so I figured I'd let them win one to make them feel better. I did have a decent experience and a successful VBAC but I have since gone on to have a wonderful homebirth and will never birth in a hospital again unless there was an emergency. At this point in my life I refuse to compromise when I know I have other options like homebirth.
Goatriffic is offline  
#5 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 02:09 PM
 
LemonPie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,058
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Personally, I would refuse it. To me it's all part of that mentality that sees you as a "pre-surgical" patient the minute you walk into the hospital in labor. They want you to have IV access and refuse you food and liquids "in case" you have to have a c-section. Why start out with the attitude that this might end in surgery? It puts the laboring woman at a disadvantage from the start, IMO.
Jen

Wife to a great DH, SAHM to 3 great kids
LemonPie is offline  
#6 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 02:33 PM
 
Nettie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: 'Round Here
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Like others have said, having one makes it that much easier for them to give you an IV if they decide there's the slightest "problem". I would refuse it and stand firm.

I birthed in a hospital and while they did try to talk me into it, my midwife told them she didn't think I'd need it. She and one of the nurses said that if there was a real emergency, an IV could be placed very quickly.
Nettie is offline  
#7 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
MyLittleWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 696
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
All of this is kind of where I'm coming from. I guess I'm having more trouble convincing DH that it's important not to get a hep-lock. His thoughts are that it would be less stressfull to just let them place it, and then know that they would have to get past a 230lb football player of a DH to attach anything to it. He's all for the "no IV, non medicated, leave me the heck alone and let me have my baby" approach, but doesn't see the need to fight every battle tooth and nail. Again, he will support me with what ever I decide, but I want to make sure I'm picking the battles that are truely important.

Amanda, mama to Owen (11/05) and Connor (10/07) and Aria (12/09) Recycled Wool Longies and Reusable Baggies
MyLittleWarrior is offline  
#8 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 03:15 PM
 
alegna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 44,408
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
IMO, if you MUST birth in a hospital, EVERY SINGLE fight is important. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

Give them nothing. Let them know this is your birth and you will have things your way.

It will be a fight.

That's why I don't plan to birth in hospitals. I don't want to have to fight in labor.

-Angela
alegna is offline  
#9 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 04:01 PM
 
**guest**'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: surrounded by water
Posts: 1,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna View Post
*I* would put my foot down. But I would not birth in a hospital unless it was an emergency.

-Angela
gosh, yes. expecially not in a teaching, intervention happy hospital. this must be so stressful to you (OP)
**guest** is offline  
#10 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 05:50 PM
Banned
 
thebarkingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,032
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
IMO, if you MUST birth in a hospital, EVERY SINGLE fight is important. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile.


i gave birth to my 1st in a university hospital. having a hep loc just makes it so much easier for them to put the IV in and do you really want to have yourself or your DH fighting them in the middle of what might be a stressful situation? labor is totally natural and normal but it can require your full attention once things get rolling. i'd want to have the confrontation up front while my body was still going easy. also, maybe just offer to sign an AMA form if they push it. most people don't know what those are and it sends the message that you know your rights and that you've decided to take the **gasp** risk of birthing w/o needles in you unless you're having some kind of dire emergency.


remind your DH that he _could_ stop them putting IV's in while you're in the middle of active labor but would he really want to be talking to _them_ just then?
thebarkingbird is offline  
#11 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 06:48 PM
 
Veritaserum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Utah
Posts: 1,291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'd refuse it because I hate needles in my hands or wrists or arms or wherever they'd want to put it. No thanks! There's a risk of infection whenever you break the skin and as others have mentioned it's easier to put drugs into you if you have that open vein--which is almost always not a good thing. :

Homeschooling Mom of 5 dds reading.gif

Planning my fifth natural birth using Hypnobabies for baby boy coming in June 2012! nocirc.gif

Veritaserum is offline  
#12 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 07:06 PM
 
Nan'sMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,498
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLittleWarrior View Post
All of this is kind of where I'm coming from. I guess I'm having more trouble convincing DH that it's important not to get a hep-lock. His thoughts are that it would be less stressfull to just let them place it, and then know that they would have to get past a 230lb football player of a DH to attach anything to it. He's all for the "no IV, non medicated, leave me the heck alone and let me have my baby" approach, but doesn't see the need to fight every battle tooth and nail. Again, he will support me with what ever I decide, but I want to make sure I'm picking the battles that are truely important.
Things can happen really fast. Really really fast. And your husband might not react immediately. And they might misrepresent what is to go into an i.v. And you may be in no state to fight it yourself. I'd try to make him read and see the importance of fighting battles tooth and nail. Coach him and your doula on your birth plan and have them ready to fight on any and all deviations. It is your birth, no one should be trying to please some stranger by letting them do anything to you.

Most people are intimidated by medical personnel. Even my dh at my HB didn't stick up for me. It was littler things, like use of doptone when we had agreed on fetoscope, but still, it can be hard and IMO, support people have to go in with battle gear on.

Best of luck with everything and happy birthing vibes to you!
Nan'sMom is offline  
#13 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 07:10 PM
 
Nan'sMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,498
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLittleWarrior View Post
I really don't have a choice on where to deliver, this is the only place my insurance will cover, and we can't afford anything else.
Have you asked HB midwives? Some will accept reduced fees or barters in cases of financial need. It may be worth asking!
Nan'sMom is offline  
#14 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 07:13 PM
 
stefka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I refused it when DS was born and plan to do so again. The resident and the attending physician gave me a hard time about it, but ultimately couldn't put it in without my consent. I refused it partly because I'm terrified of needles and partly because it seemed like the first step toward enabling interventions that might not be needed. I actually ended up with an IV due to various complications. It took just a few seconds to get the needle in, so I'm even more convinced that a hep-lock would VERY RARELY matter in a life or death situation. When I was pregnant and making this decision, I couldn't get anyone to give me actual stats on how a hep-lock resulted in more positive outcomes, just the standard, "if there's an emergency, it saves time."

Oh, and I wouldn't make any choice for fear of the staff hating you. I'm all for being non-combative, and stating your decision in a way that doesn't imply that those caring for you are incompetent or uncaring, but you can be firm and friendly at the same time. If anyone gives you the impression that this will result in them providing less positive care, then ask that someone else be assigned to you. It's your right and responsibility to be the ultimate decision-maker on issues related to your health and well-being.

Good luck!
stefka is offline  
#15 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 07:28 PM
 
wednesday's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Absolutely not. Look, you don't want the hep-lock, right? I mean it's not like they're gonna somehow give you "credit" for not fighting that particular thing. They're not gonna be like, "We're not going to push for AROM because you were so cool about accepting the hep-lock." I think you have to start out firm with things you don't want because the farther along you are in labor the harder it's going to be to fight interventions...it's better if they already think you'll be difficult to persuade to accept pitocin, and you don't even have the hep-lock in, you have more of a position of strength then to just say you don't want to be augmented. Etc.

Good luck to you!
wednesday is offline  
#16 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 08:04 PM
 
**guest**'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: surrounded by water
Posts: 1,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nan'sMom View Post
Things can happen really fast. Really really fast. And your husband might not react immediately.
i agree with this so much. there are some procedures that many drs won't even ask your consent for, because they are so "routine", and no one thinks twice. and everything happens very very fast. when i was 40 w pregnant with DD, my ob, who was before that day "hands off, lets allow nature take its course etc", did a vaginal exam and stripped my membranes. without asking. well, what she asked was "are you ready to have this baby?" well, doh, at 40 weeks of course i was. what i was supposed to say, that i wasn't? my husband was right there.

well, later she said she didn't really strip, but "swiped" and true, i didn't go into labour for a week, and we did write a letter and complained, and of all things considered that was a relatively minor thing, but the point is--they often don't ask, simply because they don't have experiences of patients not agreeing or challenging them, and things happen really fast.
**guest** is offline  
#17 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 08:28 PM
A&A
 
A&A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16,859
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
My hep-lock really hurt going in............they put it in a vein in my hand.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
A&A is offline  
#18 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 08:55 PM
 
4C-mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
you shouldn't have to fight. Just say "no thank you". they can't hold you down and make you get it.

I had just a heplock and didn't find it bothersome at all.

Student Nurse Midwife and semi crunchy mom to 4 "C" named kids! 10yr old DS, 8 yr old DD, 6yr old DD, and 3 yr old DS. Praying that C #5 is in the future for me!
4C-mom is offline  
#19 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 09:07 PM
 
kittie313's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wednesday View Post
Absolutely not. Look, you don't want the hep-lock, right? I mean it's not like they're gonna somehow give you "credit" for not fighting that particular thing. They're not gonna be like, "We're not going to push for AROM because you were so cool about accepting the hep-lock." I think you have to start out firm with things you don't want because the farther along you are in labor the harder it's going to be to fight interventions...it's better if they already think you'll be difficult to persuade to accept pitocin, and you don't even have the hep-lock in, you have more of a position of strength then to just say you don't want to be augmented. Etc.

Good luck to you!
Boy if that ain't the truth about late in labor. My last, I went totally intervention-free for most of my labor at the hospital, only getting an IV for the GBS abx (I agree with them for my own reasons and will have them again) but when I stalled out for more than 2 hours at 8cm the OB suggested AROM and pit, and I was tired after an overnight labor with little rest so I just said "lets get this over with" and then ended up with narcotics for the contractions, meconium aspiration for my baby, a vacuum-assisted delivery, and baby stuck at the shoulders. : I'm at my EDD today with #4 and plan on the IV abx again but via hep-lock instead, and I am nervous that may happen again although I have a feeling I won't labor overnight in a hospital this time, although I am delivering there................

Cat- FT ministry student and Sonlight hsing momma to a wild crew of girls
Melissa 4/03, Lydia 5/04, Kimberly 1/06, and Jordan 9/07

And waiting impatiently on baby Isaiah ******* to appear around 3/12

kittie313 is offline  
#20 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 11:31 PM
 
**guest**'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: surrounded by water
Posts: 1,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
DH reminded me of an anekdot we read, but we can't remember where, so maybe someone here knows the source. it basically went like this.

a paramedic husband and his pregnant wife were touring their hospital, and the issue of a mandatory hep lock / IV came up. their reason was--"in case of an emergency it is already in place".

the husband said: "i can insert an IV at night, under pouring rain, under an overturned vehicle, into a severely injured patient. you are telling me you won't be able to insert an IV into my healthy wife in this brightly lit room? this worries me."
**guest** is offline  
#21 of 66 Old 09-01-2007, 11:34 PM
 
blissful_maia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alberta
Posts: 3,573
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
You absolutely don't need a hep lock in a normal, healthy labor with no reason to suspect that something could possibly go wrong.

I would say this: "I don't want a hep lock in my arm/hand". If they ask you why, just say you refuse to submit to their pathologization of birth, that your birth is going to be just absolutely normal, thank you very much.

One of my favorite sayings is:

Normal birth is not a retroactive diagnosis.

Peaceful mama to three blissfully-birthed and incredible small people: dd10, dd7 and ds5. Always awed and so thankful to be a midwife.
blissful_maia is online now  
#22 of 66 Old 09-02-2007, 12:31 AM
 
jocelyndale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 3,565
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We had a co-pay based on a percentage of the fees.

It was much easier to dispute a whole heckuva lotta "IV therapy" fees on the itemized bill when my husband informed Billing that I'd not had so much as a single saline lock placed. Several hundred dollars came right off the bill after they did their investigation into my records.

The hospital where I delivered did not push the IV issue--it was never brought up. (Kinda surprising given that it was an automatic charge.) Had it been, I'd have refused. My body reacts to saline locks with redness, pain, swelling, burning, itching. I've been told it's due to high IgE or histamine or something. I didn't want the distraction, nor the easy-entry pathway toward more intervention.

Chasing DS since April 2007 and pumping for DD March 2013.

jocelyndale is offline  
#23 of 66 Old 09-02-2007, 12:38 AM
 
hipmummy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I kind of wish I had gotten a hep lock. I birthed at a birth Center, but ended up throwing up for 12 of my 18 hours of labor. The midwifes don't do them which is great but by 17 hours of labour I need one. I was allowed to eat and drink what I wanted but I couldn't hold anything down. As a doula I don't encourager them and I also tell my clients to tell their OB 's that they rae terrified of needles and they do not want to even hear mention of one. It usually works.

:CLC,Doula :Mama to 2
hipmummy is offline  
#24 of 66 Old 09-02-2007, 12:44 AM
 
KarenEMT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by annabanana View Post
DH reminded me of an anekdot we read, but we can't remember where, so maybe someone here knows the source. it basically went like this.

a paramedic husband and his pregnant wife were touring their hospital, and the issue of a mandatory hep lock / IV came up. their reason was--"in case of an emergency it is already in place".

the husband said: "i can insert an IV at night, under pouring rain, under an overturned vehicle, into a severely injured patient. you are telling me you won't be able to insert an IV into my healthy wife in this brightly lit room? this worries me."
My DH said something similar to this to the nurses when I didn't want an IV with the labor/delivery of DS#2 - that if they couldn't get the IV quickly in an emergency, he surely could. He also was very easy to convince into a homebirth for #3 despite his interventionist type of mentality as a medic
KarenEMT is offline  
#25 of 66 Old 09-02-2007, 01:06 AM
 
blissful_maia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alberta
Posts: 3,573
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipmummy View Post
I kind of wish I had gotten a hep lock. I birthed at a birth Center, but ended up throwing up for 12 of my 18 hours of labor. The midwifes don't do them which is great but by 17 hours of labour I need one. I was allowed to eat and drink what I wanted but I couldn't hold anything down. As a doula I don't encourager them and I also tell my clients to tell their OB 's that they rae terrified of needles and they do not want to even hear mention of one. It usually works.
But this isn't an emergency. If you were severely dehydrated, you could have had an IV placed. This isn't the idea behind routine heparin locks.

Peaceful mama to three blissfully-birthed and incredible small people: dd10, dd7 and ds5. Always awed and so thankful to be a midwife.
blissful_maia is online now  
#26 of 66 Old 09-02-2007, 01:17 AM
 
wannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I would refuse it because I despise needles, especially IVs, and it definitely makes me not want to move that arm. If you have it in the back of your hand it's even worse. They're just foul things. Have you had an IV before?

If you have to have one, make them use a local fisrt and put it in your wrist, not your hand. They're still nasty creepy things, though.
wannabe is offline  
#27 of 66 Old 09-02-2007, 02:03 AM
 
BoringTales's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 679
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Personally I wouldn't mind JUST having a hep-lock. Of course, with my last two I had full IV's, so a hep-lock would be a bonus compared to that!

Nicole - Mom to FOUR healthy, happy, wild boys.
BoringTales is offline  
#28 of 66 Old 09-02-2007, 11:36 AM
 
Nicole77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Bugs View Post
To me it's all part of that mentality that sees you as a "pre-surgical" patient the minute you walk into the hospital in labor. They want you to have IV access and refuse you food and liquids "in case" you have to have a c-section. Why start out with the attitude that this might end in surgery? It puts the laboring woman at a disadvantage from the start, IMO.
Jen
That is exactly how I feel about it. Though I am another who would never again birth in a hospital, barring an emergency.

"There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death." -Isaac Asimov read.gif

 
 
 
 

Nicole77 is offline  
#29 of 66 Old 09-02-2007, 11:48 AM
 
mommysusie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: In a messy, happy house
Posts: 1,258
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You know, I just had a totally different experience delivering this time around. The other times I delivered I had a heplock in the entire time I was in the hosp, but this time, even though I had a csection, I was completely needle free by the night.
mommysusie is offline  
#30 of 66 Old 09-02-2007, 12:15 PM
 
DoomaYula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,147
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just remember that ANY needle poke is an opportunity for hospital germs to get in there, and hospitals are dirty and gross and full of germs. Women have gotten staph, bacterial meningitis, even lost limbs and died from hospital infections.

The theory behind hep-locks are "just in case." However, by that standard we should ALL have hep-locks 24/7 "just in case" I get plowed down while walking to the mail box.

treehugger.gif Erika
mom of twins.gif (8)  blahblah.gif(5) thumbsuck.gif (3) and baby.gif born at home on Christmas day! 
DoomaYula is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off