Vaginal delivery does not equal Natural Childbirth - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 164 Old 11-19-2007, 05:10 PM
 
catters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gethane View Post
but that's the whole point, its NOT a badge, its a DEFINITION.

Sigh.

This is not a competition. There are no medals, or badges to be won. Everyone who takes a living baby home from the hospital is a winner.


Thank YOU!

Catherine and B stillheart.gif DS1 (6) biggrinbounce.gif DD (4) loveeyes.gif DS2 (1) drool.gif and expecting #4 shamrocksmile.gif on March 17, 2014.  
catters is offline  
#62 of 164 Old 11-19-2007, 08:22 PM
 
gratefulmama2isaac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreThanApplesauce View Post
I face possible induction and if I must do so, will be going though labor and vaginal delivery without pain meds. Dang straight I'll call it natural childbirth. It is not a "made up definition."
Amen to that!

Lucky mama to Isaac , born on Valentines Day 06', certified birth doula, midwife apprentice
gratefulmama2isaac is offline  
#63 of 164 Old 11-19-2007, 11:23 PM
 
almadianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: *clicks heels* There is no place like Stockholm
Posts: 6,073
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenOfThePride View Post
I saw a TV show about that. I think the baby was actually an abdominal ectopic pregnancy. The woman did go into labor and went to a hospital. She got scared when she heard a woman having a Cesarean with inadequate pain relief and ran back home. Her baby died and her labor stopped. Then her body mummified the baby.

But that is really off topic for this thread.
yes that is the one!!

earth.gif trottin', pole dancing, Norway and Sweden lovin' , hippie.gif,WOHM Kiddos born waterbirth.jpg 12/11/06 and 08/09/08 
belly.gif with #3 puke.gif EDD:01/2013 yikes2.gif So in love loveeyes.gif with my sweet Swede 2twins.gif and my bonus-son 10/25/98 carrot.gif

 
 

almadianna is offline  
#64 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 12:46 AM
 
lifescholar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have some issues with this, too...

I can not tell you how many times I've heard someone say "Yeah, I had a natural birth. I got the epidural as soon as I could, so I couldn't feel anything and it was great!" Sorry, that's not "natural"....

And then there's me. I had my son vaginally, but there was nothing "natural" about it! Even the 49 hours prior to getting an epidural were not "natural" by my definition of the word!! I was induced from the get-go. Ultimately, my body did its job, but not without a LOT of medical intervention.

Even if I hadn't ended up with an epidural, I would not call it a "natural birth". I would say "I had an induction without pain medication, which ended in a vaginal birth", or something to that effect.

For me, the term "natural birth" is reserved for an experience that FEELS natural. That will not include pain medications, will not include pitocin, and will include me working with my body effectively, feeling supported, and birthing my baby in the way that best suits my body and my baby.

However, I've seen some women go TOO far defining "natural birth", to the point that they were debating if you could still consider it natural if you had pitocin to help the uterus contract after the baby was born....:

To me, I think that the definition of the term "natural" varies a bit from woman to woman. If you have a shot of pitocin, or you have AROM, but no other interventions, you may still really feel like the whole experience was very natural, peaceful, etc. You COULD qualify your natural birth by saying "I had a NCB with AROM", but really, you don't need to give EVERYONE the details...

But, I think that there are few things that are implied when you say you had a natural birth, and those are:
- no pain meds (or only local anesthetic for tearing)
- very limited medical intervention (ie. maybe AROM, even a small episiotomy, as long as it was consented to by the woman)
- the ability of the mother to work with her body
- vaginal birth (obviously, lol)

Mom to two amazing boys, C (July 2005) and D (May 2010)

Founder/leader of a Babywearing group, and loving it!

lifescholar is offline  
#65 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 01:54 AM
 
stiltzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For me, the most important thing was having a live and healthy baby---the mode of delivery was secondary to that.
stiltzz is offline  
#66 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 10:00 AM
 
sunnmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: surrounded by love
Posts: 6,447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifescholar View Post
For me, the term "natural birth" is reserved for an experience that FEELS natural.
I feel the same, and my induced delivery felt as "natural" (in sensation, and in my body's response) as my non-induced delivery.

Again, I am not trying to convince anyone else that my delivery was natural....but want to point out that my contractions with pitocin (second child) were as manageable--or more manageable--as my natural contractions with my first birth. I believe it is true, for many women, that contractions on pitocin are more painful. But for me, that was simply not the case. It was no problem at all avoiding an epi with my induced labor--much moreso in my first! I like to point that out for other women facing medically necessary induction, and worrying about the pain. It isn't always more painful.
sunnmama is offline  
#67 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 10:20 AM
 
felix23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on a peaceful pond
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifescholar View Post
I have some issues with this, too...

I can not tell you how many times I've heard someone say "Yeah, I had a natural birth. I got the epidural as soon as I could, so I couldn't feel anything and it was great!" Sorry, that's not "natural"....

And then there's me. I had my son vaginally, but there was nothing "natural" about it! Even the 49 hours prior to getting an epidural were not "natural" by my definition of the word!! I was induced from the get-go. Ultimately, my body did its job, but not without a LOT of medical intervention.

Even if I hadn't ended up with an epidural, I would not call it a "natural birth". I would say "I had an induction without pain medication, which ended in a vaginal birth", or something to that effect.

For me, the term "natural birth" is reserved for an experience that FEELS natural. That will not include pain medications, will not include pitocin, and will include me working with my body effectively, feeling supported, and birthing my baby in the way that best suits my body and my baby.

However, I've seen some women go TOO far defining "natural birth", to the point that they were debating if you could still consider it natural if you had pitocin to help the uterus contract after the baby was born....:

To me, I think that the definition of the term "natural" varies a bit from woman to woman. If you have a shot of pitocin, or you have AROM, but no other interventions, you may still really feel like the whole experience was very natural, peaceful, etc. You COULD qualify your natural birth by saying "I had a NCB with AROM", but really, you don't need to give EVERYONE the details...

But, I think that there are few things that are implied when you say you had a natural birth, and those are:
- no pain meds (or only local anesthetic for tearing)
- very limited medical intervention (ie. maybe AROM, even a small episiotomy, as long as it was consented to by the woman)
- the ability of the mother to work with her body
- vaginal birth (obviously, lol)
That's your definition, not mine. I have a friend who had a very, very traumatic unmedicated birth that left her with PTSD. Didn't feel natural at all to her. Her next dc she had an epi and said it was the most amazing, relaxing, wonderful experience in her life. For her that birth was the more natural one, not the one with no pain medication.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
felix23 is offline  
#68 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 10:55 AM
 
lifescholar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
That's your definition, not mine. I have a friend who had a very, very traumatic unmedicated birth that left her with PTSD. Didn't feel natural at all to her. Her next dc she had an epi and said it was the most amazing, relaxing, wonderful experience in her life. For her that birth was the more natural one, not the one with no pain medication.
Well, I can certainly understand why the second one would be MORE natural than the first...but I still wouldn't call that NCB.

And I certainly agree that her first experience wasn't "natural". As I said, a birth must FEEL natural to the mother for her to consider it a natural birth.

I'm glad that her second birth was much more enjoyable and positive for her, but being numbed during birth is not "natural" by any stretch of the imagination.

Mom to two amazing boys, C (July 2005) and D (May 2010)

Founder/leader of a Babywearing group, and loving it!

lifescholar is offline  
#69 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 11:36 AM
 
felix23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on a peaceful pond
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
QUOTE=lifescholar;9784707]Well, I can certainly understand why the second one would be MORE natural than the first...but I still wouldn't call that NCB.

And I certainly agree that her first experience wasn't "natural". As I said, a birth must FEEL natural to the mother for her to consider it a natural birth.

I'm glad that her second birth was much more enjoyable and positive for her, but being numbed during birth is not "natural" by any stretch of the imagination.[/QUOTE]


But according to your other post her first birth WAS the "natural" one by your definition. She had no pain medication, no intervention, even though it was very traumatic, she was able to work through the pain to push a baby out of her vagina. But at the end of the day, to her it was the most unnatural birth in the world. She still will barely talk about it. The second birth, however, she felt at the end that she had experienced a natural birth with the help of modern medicine to deal with the pain. I'm not going to tell any person how they should feel about or what they should call their birth experience. I personally prefer the terms medicated, unmedicated, partially medicated, c-section birth. That way no one is confused about what type of birth a mom had. Natural and normal are just way too vague of words.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
felix23 is offline  
#70 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 11:42 AM
 
almadianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: *clicks heels* There is no place like Stockholm
Posts: 6,073
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
natural doesnt always mean good, natural generally means that it is good/better but in the case like the woman above that isnt necesarily true, but that also doesnt make the birth less natural because it wasnt good for her.

earth.gif trottin', pole dancing, Norway and Sweden lovin' , hippie.gif,WOHM Kiddos born waterbirth.jpg 12/11/06 and 08/09/08 
belly.gif with #3 puke.gif EDD:01/2013 yikes2.gif So in love loveeyes.gif with my sweet Swede 2twins.gif and my bonus-son 10/25/98 carrot.gif

 
 

almadianna is offline  
#71 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
artgoddess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Suburban hell
Posts: 13,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
I personally prefer the terms medicated, unmedicated, partially medicated, c-section birth. .
tee hee is the difference between medicated and partially medicated like being pregnant and just a little pregnant? It's either medicated or it's not, right?



Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
That way no one is confused about what type of birth a mom had. Natural and normal are just way too vague of words.
My point is that they have BECOME to vague only because so many people have been sucked up into the mainstream medical model and anything other than major surgery is being labeled Natural by so many.




I'm sorry your friend did not have a good c/b experience. But because she enjoyed her epi birth more than her unmedicated birth does not make it more natural. It makes it a better experience that is all.
artgoddess is offline  
#72 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 03:43 PM
 
felix23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on a peaceful pond
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
tee hee is the difference between medicated and partially medicated like being pregnant and just a little pregnant? It's either medicated or it's not, right?



My point is that they have BECOME to vague only because so many people have been sucked up into the mainstream medical model and anything other than major surgery is being labeled Natural by so many.




I'm sorry your friend did not have a good c/b experience. But because she enjoyed her epi birth more than her unmedicated birth does not make it more natural. It makes it a better experience that is all.
I meant to put fully medicated, as in every intervention that you can have. Sorry, I had a toddler climbing on my back. But you said that a birth had feel natural for a mom to consider it natural. At the end of her second birth she felt she had had a natural birth, I am not going to tell her or anyone else how to label their birth experience. For my friend it was natural for her to desire relief from the overwhelming pain. Yes she tried other methods first such as a warm bath, rocking on a birth ball, even hypnosis (to me hypnosis is very, very unnatural, but that's just me), but when none of those things helped she went with the epi. None of those pain relief options were a natural part of labor.

To me trying to define a natural birth is like trying to define natural foods. To me when I say I eat only all natural foods I mean I eat organic foods. But to someone else it might mean that they eat non-organic fresh fruits and veggies, and to someone else it might mean that only eat locally grown food. That is why I am specific when speaking of our food choices and use the word organic instead of natural so that there is no confusion.

I don't expect people to agree with my definition of natural birth, so that's why I always use more specific terms. For my next birth I will be attemping a vaginal hospital birth with no medication and very little intervention. Now there is no confusion about what type of birth I hope to have.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
felix23 is offline  
#73 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 03:47 PM
 
meowee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,013
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I can understand wanting to clear the definition from a clinical perspective but I don't think you should get judgmental on a personal level against women and how they feel about their births. My birth with an epidural felt magical and beautiful, no less so than my unmedicated births-- I was so connected to my baby-- it's hard to think of it as "unnatural," and I definitely don't think of it as such.
meowee is offline  
#74 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 03:56 PM
 
almadianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: *clicks heels* There is no place like Stockholm
Posts: 6,073
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by meowee View Post
I can understand wanting to clear the definition from a clinical perspective but I don't think you should get judgmental on a personal level against women and how they feel about their births. My birth with an epidural felt magical and beautiful, no less so than my unmedicated births-- I was so connected to my baby-- it's hard to think of it as "unnatural," and I definitely don't think of it as such.
nobody is judging... by calling it not a natural birth doesnt mean that it is a bad birth or that the mom is bad for getting it. it just isnt natural.

earth.gif trottin', pole dancing, Norway and Sweden lovin' , hippie.gif,WOHM Kiddos born waterbirth.jpg 12/11/06 and 08/09/08 
belly.gif with #3 puke.gif EDD:01/2013 yikes2.gif So in love loveeyes.gif with my sweet Swede 2twins.gif and my bonus-son 10/25/98 carrot.gif

 
 

almadianna is offline  
#75 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 06:04 PM
 
aikigypsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
And the OB (whom I love) was so strange looking in his protective gear, he looked more like he was prepared for a space walk than for catching a baby.


Yes, that would certainly make it feel unnatural.

Feeling natural is not at all the same as being natural, in my opinion. What we expect and can cope with easily are not always natural.

Likewise, I agree with those who said that a natural birth is usually, but not always, better. Some of my main reasons for wanting an unmedicated hospital birth is that I believe that most of the medications cause more unnecessary complications than they prevent. In some cases, interventions can save the baby (and mother's) life and health. I just don't want interventions that will do more long-term harm than good.
aikigypsy is offline  
#76 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 06:30 PM
 
Lizzie9984's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: In The Tropical US South
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by almadianna View Post
nobody is judging... by calling it not a natural birth doesnt mean that it is a bad birth or that the mom is bad for getting it. it just isnt natural.
Exactly, not calling medicalized births bad, just not as Mother Nature herself designed for us, hence---not natural births. Man-made anything has never been regarded as natural, from food additives to synthetic drugs and synthetic fibers, etc. And man has made (or taken over, more specifically) the aspect of birth into something a little on the un-natural side...

We really do have to look at the definition of the words without emotional hang-ups attached to them, otherwise there's never going to be any settling of any sort on those descriptions.
Lizzie9984 is offline  
#77 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 06:38 PM
 
felix23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on a peaceful pond
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzie9984 View Post
Exactly, not calling medicalized births bad, just not as Mother Nature herself designed for us, hence---not natural births. Man-made anything has never been regarded as natural, from food additives to synthetic drugs and synthetic fibers, etc. And man has made (or taken over, more specifically) the aspect of birth into something a little on the un-natural side...

We really do have to look at the definition of the words without emotional hang-ups attached to them, otherwise there's never going to be any settling of any sort on those descriptions.
So if someone gives birth while sitting in a plastic swimming pool in their nice air conditioned living room is that considered a natural birth? If someone uses a heating pad to dull the aches during labor is that natural? What about soaking in a whirlpool bathtub? If a man-made item is un-natural, then isn't including anything in birth that is not found in nature making that birth un-natural? I'm trying to figure out why some man-made additives to birth are considered natural but others are not.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
felix23 is offline  
#78 of 164 Old 11-20-2007, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
artgoddess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Suburban hell
Posts: 13,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
But you said that a birth had feel natural for a mom to consider it natural.
Where did I say that?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzie9984 View Post
We really do have to look at the definition of the words without emotional hang-ups attached to them, otherwise there's never going to be any settling of any sort on those descriptions.
I think this is part of the issue. People have an emotional hang up that by saying a medicated birth does not mean natural birth, they react as if I am saying that it is somehow a poorer experience. That is not at all the case.


My definition is: Noun: natural childbirth 'nachurul 'chIld`burth
Labour and childbirth without medical intervention; no drugs are given to relieve pain or aid the birth process
artgoddess is offline  
#79 of 164 Old 11-21-2007, 12:25 AM
 
lifescholar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
But according to your other post her first birth WAS the "natural" one by your definition.
This is what I said:
Quote:
For me, the term "natural birth" is reserved for an experience that FEELS natural. That will not include pain medications, will not include pitocin, and will include me working with my body effectively, feeling supported, and birthing my baby in the way that best suits my body and my baby.
and
Quote:
But, I think that there are few things that are implied when you say you had a natural birth, and those are:
- no pain meds (or only local anesthetic for tearing)
- very limited medical intervention (ie. maybe AROM, even a small episiotomy, as long as it was consented to by the woman)
- the ability of the mother to work with her body
- vaginal birth (obviously, lol)
I am not arguing that for your friend, her medicated birth felt MORE natural than her unmedicated, traumatizing one. I would not presume to tell another woman how she felt!!

But, the fact remains that if I was in her situation, I would not tell other people that my second birth was a "natural childbirth", because it wasn't.

Mom to two amazing boys, C (July 2005) and D (May 2010)

Founder/leader of a Babywearing group, and loving it!

lifescholar is offline  
#80 of 164 Old 11-21-2007, 12:32 AM
 
lifescholar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzie9984 View Post
We really do have to look at the definition of the words without emotional hang-ups attached to them, otherwise there's never going to be any settling of any sort on those descriptions.
I totally agree with this....if your birth wasn't natural, it wasn't natural! If YOU had a positive experience, and you had a good outcome (ie. healthy baby and healthy mom) why does it matter what label gets put on your birth experience?

To me, telling someone you had a natural childbirth is a way to give them FACTS about the birth, in general terms, without having to tell them your entire birth story. I see women all the time who react to "I had a natural birth" with disbelief, "wow, you're amazing", and "I really admire you", etc. That sort of thing really does serve to attach emotions to that definition. It becomes a badge, even if it wasn't intended to be so.

I have NO problems saying that I had a high-intervention birth experience. I know what the reasons were, I know how well I handled myself during labour, and I really enjoyed the experience. I plan to have natural births in the future, and they will be awesome, but I won't be any MORE proud of myself for those than I was for my first.

Mom to two amazing boys, C (July 2005) and D (May 2010)

Founder/leader of a Babywearing group, and loving it!

lifescholar is offline  
#81 of 164 Old 11-21-2007, 12:32 PM
 
felix23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on a peaceful pond
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
Where did I say that?


Sorry, I got posts confused. You did not say that another poster did



I think this is part of the issue. People have an emotional hang up that by saying a medicated birth does not mean natural birth, they react as if I am saying that it is somehow a poorer experience. That is not at all the case.


My definition is: Noun: natural childbirth 'nachurul 'chIld`burth
Labour and childbirth without medical intervention; no drugs are given to relieve pain or aid the birth process
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifescholar View Post
This is what I said:

and


I am not arguing that for your friend, her medicated birth felt MORE natural than her unmedicated, traumatizing one. I would not presume to tell another woman how she felt!!

But, the fact remains that if I was in her situation, I would not tell other people that my second birth was a "natural childbirth", because it wasn't.
I can agree that an epidural is un-natural, it is not something that naturally happens in birth, but why are some man-made additives accepted and others are not? Who gets to decided what additive should be allowed? According to my dictionary natural means - "in a state provided by nature, without man-made changes". How is using a plastic swimming pool to birth in a part of nature? With all the people here on MDC who are worried about their children drinking out of plastic cups or playing with plastic toys I am always shocked how many have no issues with plastic swimming pools to give birth in. How about a plastic birth ball, that is a man-made additive. And those things can be dangerous too. Or maybe I'm just clumsy, because I can't balance on one to save my life.

Going back to the natural food example, if you add anything at all the my fruits and veggies that does not occur naturally while they are growing, then they are not truly natural. They are still fresh fruits and veggies but with some man-made additives to assist with the growing process. So it seems to me that most people, even here on MDC, do not have a truly natural birth. They have a vaginal birth with man-made additives (heating pads, plastic swimming pools-natural hot springs are just not convienient are they , birth balls, even an epidural) to help deal with the pain of childbirth. That is why I do not like the terms natural or normal, and I like to use more specific words to describe the birth process. This is already done some here at MDC. Using the term unassisted home birth instead of just home birth. Doing this makes sure that everyone is aware of the type of birth, I don't see why it should be so hard to do this with all births. But if someone wants to call their birth un-natural, it's not going to bother me at all. It's your birth, call it what you want but let other people do the same.

And as a side note, two years ago the day before Thanksgiving I was recoving from my totally un-natural, slightly traumatic, surgical birth experience. It still seems like yesterday. I can't believe my baby is turning two!

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
felix23 is offline  
#82 of 164 Old 11-21-2007, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
artgoddess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Suburban hell
Posts: 13,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm not defining the word natural by itself. I'm defining a term, Natural Childbirth.

I understand that there are grey areas for people. But I've given my definition, and one that I think many would agree with. Throwing things out like "Oh what are the materials a birth pool is made of, shouldn't it only be natural if it's in a pond? are really just silly and/or baiting questions.
artgoddess is offline  
#83 of 164 Old 11-21-2007, 04:44 PM
 
felix23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on a peaceful pond
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
I'm not defining the word natural by itself. I'm defining a term, Natural Childbirth.

I understand that there are grey areas for people. But I've given my definition, and one that I think many would agree with. Throwing things out like "Oh what are the materials a birth pool is made of, shouldn't it only be natural if it's in a pond? are really just silly and/or baiting questions.

I'm sorry if I came off as bating or silly, but I am really trying to understand how you decided which man-made, modern, synthetic additives are okay in a natural birth. I for one would not be okay with sitting in a plastic swimming pool while giving birth. It would bother me and feel un-natural, but if someone else does that and it helps them deal with the pain then I have no problem with them calling it a natural birth. Same with an epi, I would not be comfortable having a needle stuck in my spine, but if someone else decides to use that pain relieving method and call it a natural birth, it won't bother me at all.
I have a birthday party to plan, so I probably won't be back to this thead. But I still think it will be impossible to define natural childbirth because there are waaay too many gray areas.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
felix23 is offline  
#84 of 164 Old 11-21-2007, 04:57 PM
 
Romana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
I'm not defining the word natural by itself. I'm defining a term, Natural Childbirth.

I understand that there are grey areas for people. But I've given my definition, and one that I think many would agree with. Throwing things out like "Oh what are the materials a birth pool is made of, shouldn't it only be natural if it's in a pond? are really just silly and/or baiting questions.
I agree. I think making those kinds of added and somewhat irrelevant distinctions take away from the pertinent part of the discussion. And destroy any possible value or useful definition of the term.

We have a forum here called "Natural Family Living." People are able to understand what that means and participate without living without clothing, shelter, or any other "man-made" assistance in wild lands. In fact, the forum wouldn't work but for people having computers for communication. And yet, it still has a place, a purpose, a meaning, and could be roughly defined. I think suggesting you have to be buck naked and living without anything man-made in order to have the "Natural Family Living" forum mean anything would clearly defeat its purpose.

I think the term "natural childbirth" will have somewhat differing meanings for different people. However, I think it's helpful to consider other terms, like "unmedicated childbirth" or "induced birth" or "surgical birth" to help describe various forms of birth. To me, natural childbirth means minimal intervention and no drugs (epi, IV, pitocin, cervadil, etc.). I don't totally understand how effective black/blue cohosh is or if it changes the nature of contractions, but if it does, I'm not sure I'd call that a natural childbirth, either - because then we're talking about substantially altering the birth experience from its normal progression.

I do call my birth a "NCB." If I had had more interventions but no pain medication, and didn't really consider it NCB, I'd call it "unmedicated." As it was, the only intervention was being sewed up after the birth and being coached (though I mostly ignored it) during pushing.

I agree with pps that said the object is to come up with a relatively objective definition of natural childbirth, and not to agree that it's purely subjective and therefore could mean anything (sure, you can think about it that way, but it renders the term meaningless as a descriptor).
Romana is offline  
#85 of 164 Old 11-21-2007, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
artgoddess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Suburban hell
Posts: 13,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
I'm sorry if I came off as bating or silly, but I am really trying to understand how you decided which man-made, modern, synthetic additives are okay in a natural birth. I for one would not be okay with sitting in a plastic swimming pool while giving birth. It would bother me and feel un-natural, but if someone else does that and it helps them deal with the pain then I have no problem with them calling it a natural birth. Same with an epi, I would not be comfortable having a needle stuck in my spine, but if someone else decides to use that pain relieving method and call it a natural birth, it won't bother me at all.
I have a birthday party to plan, so I probably won't be back to this thead. But I still think it will be impossible to define natural childbirth because there are waaay too many gray areas.
Firstly I never said that anything was "okay" or "not okay" this is a thread about defining a term, not about applying value or judgment to birth choices.

Secondly I gave a definition a few times, did you read it?
artgoddess is offline  
#86 of 164 Old 11-21-2007, 05:36 PM
 
georgia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tl;dr
Posts: 25,918
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thought this was interesting:

Quote:
Normal birth is almost never an option in hospitals. Listening to Mothers II, a national survey of U.S. women having hospital births in 2005, reported that at most 2% of them received all six care practices Lamaze International, based on World Health Organization recommendations, deems supportive of “normal” birth.20 Virtually all women laboring in hospitals will be exposed to procedures, drugs, and restrictions that research shows to be harmful, ineffective, and usually both with routine or frequent use, and in some cases, with any use at all.5, 34 Here is a partial list together with the percentage of women in the survey having that procedure or practice:

* 35% induction for non-medical reasons: Many would also have been induced for discredited medical reasons such as the baby is predicted to be larger than average
* 60% nothing by mouth
* 83% IV drip
* 93% continuous electronic fetal monitoring
* 59% rupture of membranes
* 75% confinement to bed in labor
* (not reported) preset time limits for making progress in dilation or pushing
* 57% unphysiologic pushing positions
* 79% unphysiologic pushing techniques
* 17% fundal pressure (pressing on the mother’s belly to help expel the baby)
* 25% episiotomy
Quote:
It is not logical to use what may have been a necessary cesarean as an argument for routine intervention. Intervening may be required in some cases, and some interventions such as cesarean section have been made safer, but this hardly justifies routine or frequent use. One might as well say that improved equipment and techniques for rescuing people from burning buildings makes tossing accelerant on the fire or starting the fire yourself a good idea. As an article on the Childbirth Connection website states: “All mothers should have access to safest vaginal birth practices. We should not expect them to choose between vaginal birth with avoidable harms and cesarean section.”
From Dr. Michel Odent:

Quote:
How would you define "normal" birth?

The term 'normal' is useless when applied to birth. In 'normal' there is a cultural connotation. A birth can be considered normal in Rome, but not in Santa Fe. It is only in retrospect that a birth can be qualified 'normal' (the same about 'natural'). What we need today is to qualify an attitude. That is why I suggested the concept of 'biodynamic attitude in childbirth'. A biodynamic attitude (in farming, in childbirth, etc.) is based on a good understanding of the physiological processes. In other words it means: working with the laws of Nature.

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
georgia is offline  
#87 of 164 Old 11-21-2007, 05:59 PM
 
felix23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on a peaceful pond
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
Firstly I never said that anything was "okay" or "not okay" this is a thread about defining a term, not about applying value or judgment to birth choices.

Secondly I gave a definition a few times, did you read it?

Yes I read your definition. You think that using medication during birth makes in un-natural, but other man-made modern pain relieving options are okay with you. My personal definition is that the natural way to birth a baby is for it to come out the vagina, it is up to the mother's discretion to determine which pain relieving options she is comfortable with including in a natural birth. What may appear to be un-natural to me (a swimming pool birth or hypsosis of any kind in my case) may be perfectly natural to someone else.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
felix23 is offline  
#88 of 164 Old 11-21-2007, 08:22 PM
 
savithny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,820
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Most people I know still don't equate vaginal with natural.

However, most people I know do beleive that an unmedicated hospital birth counts as natural childbirth.

Which leads me to wonder - is the extreme notion of "if it was vaginal, it was natural," a mirror image, or a flipside, or a result, or somehow a partner of .... the equally extreme notion of "if you birthed in the hospital, or even had any attendants at all, your birth was not natural."

Definitions that are a long way off in either direction from the "median definition," tend to be thought of in much the same way - and the existence of definitions at one end of that continuum seems to almost encourage definitions at the other end.

I'm just musing about semantics here. I'm not arguing that anyone doesn't get to define "natural childbirth" for themselves in whatever way makes the most sense to them.

(My disclosure: I consider both my births natural. I went into labor myself both times, labored without medication, was attended by CNMs in a hospital setting, but left alone with in a dim room in a warm deep, tub. No one cut me, suggested my labor needed augmenting, or told me how to push. I'm pretty satisfied, all around, with both experiences - but I know I was lucky in the hospital that was available to me, and that having a natural birth is much harder/impossible in many hospitals.)

savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

savithny is offline  
#89 of 164 Old 11-22-2007, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
artgoddess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Suburban hell
Posts: 13,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post


(My disclosure: I consider both my births natural. I went into labor myself both times, labored without medication, was attended by CNMs in a hospital setting, but left alone with in a dim room in a warm deep, tub. No one cut me, suggested my labor needed augmenting, or told me how to push. I'm pretty satisfied, all around, with both experiences - but I know I was lucky in the hospital that was available to me, and that having a natural birth is much harder/impossible in many hospitals.)
Sounds like a dream compared to my hospital.
artgoddess is offline  
#90 of 164 Old 11-22-2007, 01:46 AM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,765
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Quote:
However, most people I know do believe that an unmedicated hospital birth counts as natural childbirth.
So, referring to my post in #27, does that equal a natural birth because it is unmedicated even though it is a caesarean?

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off