Vaginal delivery does not equal Natural Childbirth - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 164 Old 12-06-2007, 01:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Thalia View Post
You mean, without electricity, running water, indoor heat? How natural, exactly, is a plastic birth pool, for that matter?

I think it is tricky to draw the line between where technology can be helpful and facilitate the natural labor process (e.g. listening to beautiful music on your stereo) vs. interrupt it (insert your least favorite intervention here).
Are you kidding me? You're really taking her statement that literally? I think when she says 'could things have happened like this 1000 years ago' she's referring to the physical process of birthing. Having indoor heat doesn't interfere with the birthing process does it?
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#122 of 164 Old 12-06-2007, 01:31 AM
 
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I don't get the whole "it's only natural if cavewomen/bushwomen did it" argument. I mean, tribal african women don't crap in toliets, either, does that make our bowel movements unnatural? (Not to mention the racism and privilege inherent in the "bushwomen do it" arguements, but that's another thread.)

While I think we should be honest in evaluating birth choices, getting too legalistic does nothing to advance the natural birth cause or educate and empower women. If you tell a woman natural birth is best for her and her baby, and then go on to say she has to give birth alone and naked in a cave for it to be natural...you're gonna lose a lot of people, fast.

I think it also encourages us to turn birth into a some type of pissing contest, which I don't like at all.
I hate to even answer this question but, actually toilets are not a natural or very good way for us to eliminate. This should actually take place in a squatting position and not in a sitting one, which is only one of many reasons we have so many bowel issues. That may not be a very good argument.

Also, perhaps some posters are being taken too literally. Maybe the basic point is that nature is best left undisturbed in healthy cases...that's it. No, you don't have to find a cave, no you don't have to be naked. You have to be healthy and safe. You're right about it turning into a pissing match, which isn't good. I don't think it needs to be a competition, I think women need to do what is best for thier babies.
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#123 of 164 Old 12-06-2007, 03:58 AM
 
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Are you kidding me? You're really taking her statement that literally? I think when she says 'could things have happened like this 1000 years ago' she's referring to the physical process of birthing.
I'm just trying to show that using "Could this birth have taken place exactly like this 1000 years ago?" as the key criterion for having a natural childbirth isn't ideal. As holly6737 mentioned, AROM (certainly part of the physical process of birthing) was possible 1000 years ago. But not everyone at MDC would agree that a natural birth includes artificial rupture of the membranes. In fact, I think that's a rather controversial topic.

Then there are things like the use of castor oil and black and blue cohosh to induce or augment labor. Are those natural? Yes. Could they have been used 1000 years ago? Yes. Are they an intervention? Yes.

While I do agree that "vaginal delivery does not equal natural childbirth", I don't think there is any one simple definition or criterion for natural childbirth that is going to satisfy everyone, even everyone here at MDC.

Baby's up...gotta go.

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#124 of 164 Old 12-06-2007, 01:04 PM
 
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I'm just trying to show that using "Could this birth have taken place exactly like this 1000 years ago?" as the key criterion for having a natural childbirth isn't ideal. As holly6737 mentioned, AROM (certainly part of the physical process of birthing) was possible 1000 years ago. But not everyone at MDC would agree that a natural birth includes artificial rupture of the membranes. In fact, I think that's a rather controversial topic.

Then there are things like the use of castor oil and black and blue cohosh to induce or augment labor. Are those natural? Yes. Could they have been used 1000 years ago? Yes. Are they an intervention? Yes.

While I do agree that "vaginal delivery does not equal natural childbirth", I don't think there is any one simple definition or criterion for natural childbirth that is going to satisfy everyone, even everyone here at MDC.

Baby's up...gotta go.
I can agree to that, some good points. I'm just made grumpy by what might be nit-picking....but then again that's what happens in these MDC 'controversial' conversations, I guess. I'm more of a big picture, stick to the basic point sort of person though.
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#125 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 02:22 PM
 
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I love MDC for many things. But that just is a "natural" way to deny others their own feelings about their birth.

Good lord, is this a competition covered up nicely in semantics?? Sure seems like it.

I am all for watching your words as words are powerful in human minds but honestly this thread does nothing help women in becoming more powerful and realize what they are capable off. It's just a crunchier than though covered up in "I am more aware of my language than you are", sorry.
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#126 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 02:30 PM
 
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The problem that I see with this whole argument is that people are taking it as an insult that their births were not natural, it isnt... I wont call a pear and apple eventhough they might both be green in color. It isnt insulting to the pear is it?
You can call it an apple if you want but that wont make it an apple that will just make those around you confused.

If you got an epidural/induced/etc own your choice and dont feel like people saying that you didnt have a natural birth is an insult.. it is a description. That is it.

I really am bothered by the fact that we are so gone as a society that we dont understand what it means to have a natural birth anymore. Basically if you did anything medical to augment your labor, lessen pain, or otherwise change the course or what your body would have naturally done while in labor. It was not natural.

Walking around can change it, but it is not medical. A pool can change it but it is not medical. We are talking about medical interventions not whether the bed you gave birth on had plastic or not and if the women 2000 years ago didnt have it then we cant call it natural if we have it. We are talking about changing what your body would have done naturally through medical procedures. Simple as that.

I really am sorry that people dont understand that and take it so personally that they want the definition of the word changed to suit their needs.

Things like teas and castor oil I leave up to the discretion of the person involved more than anything because those arent medical and because they could be natural. Personally I wouldnt call it natural because that is my belief but I wont knock it. On the other hand seeing women that say that their epidural-laden hospital birth with coached pushing was natural I cant agree with.

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#127 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 02:40 PM
 
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I understand that epidurals, pitocin and birthing pools with aromatherapy are not natural. But this kind of discussion does not help at all to empower women. It just says "well my naive little dear let me tell you you went through labour but I hate to say to you that was not natural. You might have endured pain but you are just a stupid little mainstream dummy if you are insulted by me correcting your perception". That's how the discussion comes across.

I understand the need for people be more aware of their words but honestly that just not the way to reach anyone out there.

In other languages, is there the same "problem"? I'm from Germany and trying to remember if we even have an euphimistic term like "natural childbirth". Oh yeah, it's called "natuerliche Geburt" but somehow there seems to be less hairsplitting. For some reason when you say "natural childbirth" people seem to envision dogstyle panting and batique shirts.
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#128 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 02:44 PM
 
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I understand that epidurals, pitocin and birthing pools with aromatherapy are not natural. But this kind of discussion does not help at all to empower women. It just says "well my naive little dear let me tell you you went through labour but I hate to say to you that was not natural. You might have endured pain but you are just a stupid little mainstream dummy if you are insulted by me correcting your perception". That's how the discussion comes across.

I understand the need for people be more aware of their words but honestly that just not the way to reach anyone out there.

In other languages, is there the same "problem"? I'm from Germany and trying to remember if we even have an euphimistic term like "natural childbirth". Oh yeah, it's called "natuerliche Geburt" but somehow there seems to be less hairsplitting. For some reason when you say "natural childbirth" people seem to envision dogstyle panting and batique shirts.
So now we are supposed to change the meaning of a word to make some people feel better?
You call it insulting I call it informing. But I guess it all depends on the way that they are corrected. I have no problems correcting people when they have said that because I dont want a world where natural means other than a csection because that would be sad.

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#129 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 02:53 PM
 
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You know what I also realize? I am always very cautious and sort of waiting if I hear certain terms and phrases in the US. Because I know people have a ton of different things hiding behind them. I for one don't take the term "natural" very serious anymore because sometime it seems people put a big label on things as if that means you can somehow "purchase" them. "Oh, you want a natural childbirth?" Somehow even that comes across a product to be chosen.

Just as "natural family living" makes me scratch my hat.

The whole "natural" here in the US confuses me. Just as I was always confused by the way conversations end "see ya". Could really mean, I'll se you next week or could mean I don't care to ever see you again but I just say something.

Especially in the US I don't always even trust what people say since nobody seems to say directly what they mean you always have to scratch away several layers.
So, for example Germans are considered rude and impolite- they are just straight to the point which seems rude to other cultures and I just have a problem sometimes with debates like that.
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#130 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 02:55 PM
 
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So, for example Germans are considered rude and impolite- they are just straight to the point which seems rude to other cultures and I just have a problem sometimes with debates like that.
I am considered rude too, probably because I am not from the US.

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#131 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 03:05 PM
 
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I am considered rude too, probably because I am not from the US.
me too.
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#132 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So now we are supposed to change the meaning of a word to make some people feel better?
You call it insulting I call it informing. But I guess it all depends on the way that they are corrected. I have no problems correcting people when they have said that because I dont want a world where natural means other than a csection because that would be sad.
thank you.

although I don't correct people. I did not start this thread as some sort of pissing contest and I resent the implication that I did. I am very saddened that womens birth choices are so far removed from the birthing mother that anything other than major surgery is called natural childbirth.

I was a birth choices talk recently and a woman raved about how nice they were at the local hospital to her, they *let* her hold her baby after he was born for a few minutes before taking him off to the warming bed. And most of us listening were so pleased to hear that positive tid-bit about our local hospital until the speaker pointed out the use of the word let. It's a sad state of things when women talk about our bodies and our children as if they are not our own. I hear things like, "the doctor will *allow* me to go 5 days past EDD." And yet I'm told here that I am taking away a womans ability to realize her power? I don't think so.

Straight and to the point:
natural childbirth
noun
labor and childbirth without medical intervention; no drugs are given to relieve pain or aid the birth process


sorry if my being to the point is considered rude.
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#133 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 04:09 PM
 
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Hi, everyone

Wanted to share this Peggy O'Mara's Mothering editorial. It's very to-the-point.

Quote:
I think we have failed as childbirth educators because we've framed natural childbirth as just another choice, rather than as the best choice. Natural childbirth is the best choice because it is the safest choice. It is safest because, by definition, it involves fewer medical interventions, and it is these interventions that contribute to at least 50 percent of maternal deaths.

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
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#134 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 04:12 PM
 
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thank you.

although I don't correct people. I did not start this thread as some sort of pissing contest and I resent the implication that I did. I am very saddened that womens birth choices are so far removed from the birthing mother that anything other than major surgery is called natural childbirth.

I was a birth choices talk recently and a woman raved about how nice they were at the local hospital to her, they *let* her hold her baby after he was born for a few minutes before taking him off to the warming bed. And most of us listening were so pleased to hear that positive tid-bit about our local hospital until the speaker pointed out the use of the word let. It's a sad state of things when women talk about our bodies and our children as if they are not our own. I hear things like, "the doctor will *allow* me to go 5 days past EDD." And yet I'm told here that I am taking away a womans ability to realize her power? I don't think so.

Straight and to the point:
natural childbirth
noun
labor and childbirth without medical intervention; no drugs are given to relieve pain or aid the birth process


sorry if my being to the point is considered rude.
That "allow" and "let" language bothers me as well. We have lost the belief that we have a say and we have control over our own bodies and our own children. We have been brainwashed into thinking "doctor is right, must listen always".

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#135 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 05:31 PM
 
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I am considered rude too, probably because I am not from the US.

I have a friend from Holland who just expressed this to me. She says European people are more straightforward and not so caught up in politeness and PC. I guess it is one of those cultural quirks that we Americans tend to prefer fibs and sparing feelings than just getting over ourselves and accepting some truths.
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#136 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 06:16 PM
 
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sorry if my being to the point is considered rude.
Yeah, strange that straight forward has been warped into being considered rude. I have a theory or two on why that might be but yeah I have experienced that myself. I think it effects so much in our society and goes way beyond childbirth unfortunately. Factual information has to be sugar coated and/or compromised in order to be welcomed. Anywho, I appreciate you being to the point here.
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#137 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 07:11 PM
 
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Is there a reason why there is such a need to have this definition? I'm newer to MDC and I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed that so much time is spent on trying to define and/or label oneself or others. Our society is currently so focused on how we can each be exclusive, be it individually, through a social group or social status, through the career we chose to the type of birth we had to whether or not we breastfeed -- it's driving me nuts lately. I don't disagree that a definition is a definition, but shouldn't we be more focused on the outcome of whether or not the mom and baby were and are happy and healthy? (Wait, what's your definition of healthy, I'm sure there are 1000 definitions on MDC depending on if you breastfeed or don't, whether you use diapers or don't, we can get into if you eat meat or if you don't, exercise or don't..... it can go on and on.) I won't even type what my definition of natural is here, though I do have a definition. I'd be more impressed with this board if there was a bit more of an inclusive demeaner. It's always hard to interpret someone's tone of voice through type-written words. Many times I find that comments seem to be condescending and a bit self-rightous - though, I assume that they weren't originally meant to come across this way. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for debate and all for playing the devil's advocate, and I feel that we are all women (well most of us who post are anyway), we all have different bodies and different minds and are fully able to have our own opinions and express them.


I just feel that pregnancy and childbirth are different experiences for all women physically, mentally, and emotionally. I embrace what you feel is the way to move through both, and regardless of how I would define your experiece, I didn't live through it and I am just happy that you did what you felt was best at the time to make you feel happy and healthy along with your baby.

I get so tired of exclusiveness and women nit-picking each other!

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#138 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 07:14 PM
 
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I really don't see this as women nit-picking each other, rather dissatisfaction with the mainstreaming of such a high level of birth interventions that as long as the baby comes out the vagina, U.S. society says "natural!"

eta: none of my births were natural. 3 c-sections, 2 highly managed vbacs. I'm HAPPY with the outcome of my birth experiences, but they still weren't "natural."
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#139 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 07:31 PM
 
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it isnt nitpicking... it is informing and educating ourselves and each other.

My births were not completely natural but I will defend that word, especially here on MDC. This place is a haven for those of us that dont do things that are completely mainstream. It saddens me that this word is being taken so lightly recently.

Our society is focused on medicalized births, and if those of us that are supposed to be fighting to change things dont care about how this word is used, well we cant expect people to care about the changes that we are trying to make. "Healthy mom and healthy baby" is great, but ultimately these intervention lead to less healthy moms and less healthy babies. Everything from NICU stays to breastfeeding problems, to permanent damage to both mother and child. So I am sorry if it seems like I am being nitpicky but this is a very important topic and I feel shocked that it is seen like we are being picky when in fact we are just trying to make sure that this term doesnt lose its importance... like the modern medical establishment seems focused on doing.

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It has been said on some boards that the medical community uses fear to get women to make uniformed medical decisions. Isn't that what's also being said when we say that interventions lead to unhealthy moms and babies? One of my cousins twin babies died at birth, without medical intervention she wouldn't have made it either. One of my friends, who is the in the top tier of healthy people I know, had to have her baby 3.5 months early weighing only 1.5 pounds, she also almost didn't make it. Yes, these are extreme circumstances regarding intervention and I do agree that our society does focus on medicalized births and I agree with pp that some people are too quick to go down the epi road. However, I get tired of reading that if a mother doesn't breastfeed she must be misinformed, if she doesn't have a homebirth she must be misinformed, etc. I'm for breastfeeding and homebirthing is an option if people want it, just for the record.

I care that a woman has the choice to have the birth that she wants and that she is informed of her choices. It's likely that in some areas, the resources are not available for some choices, and some choices may not be discussed like they should. I agree with a pp that said that the word "natural" is almost too vague. While I do think a homebirth with no drugs seems quite natural, I also see that being in a hospital bed with the support of the medical community around me may be natural as well. I also agree with another pp that it's easy to take this to the extreme - in fact I was talking with my DH last night about a comment on the homebirth section, and his first response was, "Well a house isn't really natural, neither is a bathtub. Having a baby in the woods, now that would be natural!"

How much does the definition of natural change with the influences we see day to day on tv? I wouldn't be surprised if the number of c-sections being requested has gone up (maybe only a fraction in this example), especially as women hear that certain celebrities get them done early so they don't have as many stretch marks. Same thing for the topic of some women putting of having babies earlier because they see that celebrities spawn children into their late 40's and early 50's and are gawked at and told how beautiful they are (never mind the stylists, hair and make-up people making sure they look fabulous). I think our definitions get shifted because "what's on tv or the internet is the norm" kind of thinking. You could make this case with tv shows as well, reality or not reality-driven. Obviously many people do not see the world this way, and I agree that those who don't need to fight to keep working to keep people informed. I just don't like the "well, this friend of mine had a baby in a hospital, how could she say it was natural with all of those IV's and sick people around?" type of statements.

Anyway, re-reading what I've written, this seems to be more of a babble with multiple topics. Basically I equate the word "natural" with the same subjectiveness as the word "healthy" and if anything, I think that the medical profession should at least provide the information for the various types of births and then give their professional opinion based on what they know of you and it'd be nice if they could refer you to an alternate opinion from a respected midwife so you can choose what you like (assuming the opinions are so polar opposite that you're stuck in the middle!).

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#141 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 08:21 PM
 
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It has been said on some boards that the medical community uses fear to get women to make uniformed medical decisions. Isn't that what's also being said when we say that interventions lead to unhealthy moms and babies? One of my cousins twin babies died at birth, without medical intervention she wouldn't have made it either. One of my friends, who is the in the top tier of healthy people I know, had to have her baby 3.5 months early weighing only 1.5 pounds, she also almost didn't make it. Yes, these are extreme circumstances regarding intervention and I do agree that our society does focus on medicalized births and I agree with pp that some people are too quick to go down the epi road. However, I get tired of reading that if a mother doesn't breastfeed she must be misinformed, if she doesn't have a homebirth she must be misinformed, etc.

I care that a woman has the choice to have the birth that she wants and that she is informed of her choices. It's likely that in some areas, the resources are not available for some choices, and some choices may not be discussed like they should. I agree with a pp that said that the word "natural" is almost too vague. While I do think a homebirth with no drugs seems quite natural, I also see that being in a hospital bed with the support of the medical community around me may be natural as well. I also agree with another pp that it's easy to take this to the extreme - in fact I was talking with my DH last night about a comment on the homebirth section, and his first response was, "Well a house isn't really natural, neither is a bathtub. Having a baby in the woods, now that would be natural!"

How much does the definition of natural change with the influences we see day to day on tv? I wouldn't be surprised if the number of c-sections being requested has gone up (maybe only a fraction in this example), especially as women hear that certain celebrities get them done early so they don't have as many stretch marks. Same thing for the topic of some women putting of having babies earlier because they see that celebrities spawn children into their late 40's and early 50's and are gawked at and told how beautiful they are (never mind the stylists, hair and make-up people making sure they look fabulous). I think our definitions get shifted because "what's on tv or the internet is the norm" kind of thinking. You could make this case with tv shows as well, reality or not reality-driven. Obviously many people do not see the world this way, and I agree that those who don't need to fight to keep working to keep people informed. I just don't like the "well, this friend of mine had a baby in a hospital, how could she say it was natural with all of those IV's and sick people around?" type of statements.

Anyway, re-reading what I've written, this seems to be more of a babble with multiple topics. Basically I equate the word "natural" with the same subjectiveness as the word "healthy" and if anything, I think that the medical profession should at least provide the information for the various types of births and then give their professional opinion based on what they know of you and it'd be nice if they could refer you to an alternate opinion from a respected midwife so you can choose what you like (assuming the opinions are so polar opposite that you're stuck in the middle!).

I dont think that anyone will disagree that interventions can help but i dont know if anyone would disagree that there are too many of them.
We dont need scare tactics to not get women to get interventions, the numbers speak for themselves... they can and do lead to more problems in births.

Nobody here is talking about not breastfeeding or not homebirthing equals misinformed... I think that you are taking this a different way. You also arent reading what has been written.

The whole last part of your comment actually reinforced what I was trying to say, people look at what has been portrayed on television and on other media and they will follow it. This word is important because this is a constant battle to try and keep our choices valid and doable. The more people that think that the TV csections are normal the harder this is going to be for those of us who dont believe they are. This word means a lot to a lot of people.

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#142 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 08:25 PM
 
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The word natural itself can mean many things, yes. We can get into all of that, delve deep, etc. on a different post.

What we are talking about here is the fact that it seems to be a fad lately that just because a baby comes out of your vagina, that it is a natural childbirth. Like it or not, natural childbirth is a phrase that has specific meaning, which I listed from the dictionary and will repost below. This is not a discussion about what the meaning of "is" is...(you get my point) it is over a specific phrase with specific meaning.

American Heritage Dictionary - natural childbirth
n. A method of childbirth in which medical intervention is minimized and the mother often practices relaxation and breathing techniques to control pain and ease delivery.

WordNet - natural childbirth
noun
labor and childbirth without medical intervention; no drugs are given to relieve pain or aid the birth process

This is not judgement. This is a definition.
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#143 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 08:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by attachedmamaof3 View Post

This is not judgement. This is a definition.
thank you so much.

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#144 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 08:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JenBuckyfan View Post
Is there a reason why there is such a need to have this definition? I'm newer to MDC and I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed that so much time is spent on trying to define and/or label oneself or others. Our society is currently so focused on how we can each be exclusive, be it individually, through a social group or social status, through the career we chose to the type of birth we had to whether or not we breastfeed -- it's driving me nuts lately. I don't disagree that a definition is a definition, but shouldn't we be more focused on the outcome of whether or not the mom and baby were and are happy and healthy? (Wait, what's your definition of healthy, I'm sure there are 1000 definitions on MDC depending on if you breastfeed or don't, whether you use diapers or don't, we can get into if you eat meat or if you don't, exercise or don't..... it can go on and on.) I won't even type what my definition of natural is here, though I do have a definition. I'd be more impressed with this board if there was a bit more of an inclusive demeaner. It's always hard to interpret someone's tone of voice through type-written words. Many times I find that comments seem to be condescending and a bit self-rightous - though, I assume that they weren't originally meant to come across this way. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for debate and all for playing the devil's advocate, and I feel that we are all women (well most of us who post are anyway), we all have different bodies and different minds and are fully able to have our own opinions and express them.


I just feel that pregnancy and childbirth are different experiences for all women physically, mentally, and emotionally. I embrace what you feel is the way to move through both, and regardless of how I would define your experiece, I didn't live through it and I am just happy that you did what you felt was best at the time to make you feel happy and healthy along with your baby.

I get so tired of exclusiveness and women nit-picking each other!
Is there a need to define any word? Why do we define cesarean section birth? Definitions don't exclude. You can be very concerned about outcomes while still maintaining a definition. They don't contradict one another.
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#145 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 09:19 PM
 
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I had an induction followed by epidural vaginal birth once. The nurses in the hospital were like: "way to go for having a natural childbirth"
I was like:
I mean, I had tried having 100% med and intervention free births before: THOSE were natural, not that one
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#146 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I had an induction followed by epidural vaginal birth once. The nurses in the hospital were like: "way to go for having a natural childbirth"
I was like:
I mean, I had tried having 100% med and intervention free births before: THOSE were natural, not that one
isn't that a scary thing? that there is such a standard in the medical community that anything other than major surgery is called natural childbirth? When I had my son and I opted for an epidural after 30 hours of labor I was told by so many how lucky I was they "let" me continue in labor, and delivery vaginally.

It has been asked and answered a few times on this thread why natural Childbirth even needs to be defined. Maybe we could come up with a list.
1. I like to know what I'm talking about with someone. When they say they had a natural childbirth, I just like to have a picture in my head that is more accurate.
2. A lot of women post here after birth who are seeking advice. The type of birth they had can effect what they are looking for an answer about. Be it legal questions about hospital experiences, latching issues with their babe or any possible birth trauma issues.

I will say it again maybe some will hear this time.

THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD IS NOT A VALUE STATEMENT, IT IS A STATEMENT ABOUT DEFINITION.

like I said before, if I use ground Turkey to make burgers for dinner, I don't call them hamburgers, I call them turkey burgers. And saying that does not in any way imply that turkey or beef is in any way inferior to the other. Same goes for the definition of Natural Childbirth.
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#147 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 09:38 PM
 
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I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a definition (or definitions in general - I'm quite far from being existential), they are what they are. I'm not in the mindset that we shouldn't define anything or allow people to define everthing on their own. the definition I would choose for a natural birth is dead-on with the American Heritage Dictionary definition. In my previous posts, I was addressing my thought that self-created definitions can be made to seem as though they are developed to exclude others. The AHD definition is what it is and I'm totally fine with that. I do have an issue with people in the medical profession not using the proper definition, just the same with people in my profession mis-using words.

As for bringing breastfeeding and homebirthing into the equation (I have read every post...), it was more of a vent from what I've been seeing around MDC and it runs parallel to this topic as some feel that any hospital birth cannot be deemed natural.

Personally, I think there are more important things in the world to debate and/or complain about than the definition of a word that is already defined in a dictionary. I don't disagree with the idea to bring up the annoyance about those not using the proper terminology to describe their experience, I just don't see spending so much time on it. (Not that'd I'd spend my time ranting in a post about it or anything...)

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#148 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 10:37 PM
 
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to the OP, I know this is OT and this is it, I promise!!

I'm not sure about the spending so much time on the debate part (honestly not really sure why there is a debate), but I can tell you the reason why it's important and why these topics seem to be "sticklers" at MDC.

Natural childbirth (as defined above) is the default. It's the go-to birth method. It should be the norm.

Breastfeeding is the default. It's the go-to feeding method. It should be the norm.

Homebirthing, in my opinion, is the default. It's the go-to birth place. It should be the norm.

(all the usual and applicable disclaimers apply)
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#149 of 164 Old 12-07-2007, 11:07 PM
 
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to the OP, I know this is OT and this is it, I promise!!

I'm not sure about the spending so much time on the debate part (honestly not really sure why there is a debate), but I can tell you the reason why it's important and why these topics seem to be "sticklers" at MDC.

Natural childbirth (as defined above) is the default. It's the go-to birth method. It should be the norm.

Breastfeeding is the default. It's the go-to feeding method. It should be the norm.

Homebirthing, in my opinion, is the default. It's the go-to birth place. It should be the norm.


(all the usual and applicable disclaimers apply)
I agree. I had an intervention free labor and delivery. Had I not been in a hospital and had an experienced nurse midwife who had delivered bunches of babies in a thirdworld country, and had drugs on hand, I would not have survived much past the first hour after my son's birth.
I like to talk about my birth experience because I want women to know that they have options. That they can trust that their bodies were made with this purpose in mind. I'm not sure where I was going with this...Many would not consider my experience to be a 'natural' birth, but I don't really care. I feel a great sense of personal accomplishment because I birthed my son under my own power. And I think those of us who've done this want that same wondrous feeling for EVERY woman.
My SIL was fed full of stories about the horrors of childbirth and chose a highly managed birth. Yes she delivered an 8lb 14oz baby vaginally, but despite her best effort(and lengthy telepone convo's) she has not been able to successfully breastfeed. I KNOW that this is a consequence of herchoice.
But noone warned her of this consequence before hand.

It makes me angry that the medical profession is so willing to mislead. ANd I pity her for being so willingly misled. These are my FEELINGS.
We definatelyneed definitions, so that women canmake better choices. And we need compliance from the medprofs to make it happen.

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#150 of 164 Old 12-08-2007, 03:35 AM
 
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I care very little how others define their own births but I still find this discussion quite worthwhile especially here on this forum where we already have a commonality with this being a place for natural family living.

Here is why I think it matters so much - natural childbirth was essentially stolen from women in the US when OBs lobbied congress to outlaw midwifery before women had the right to vote. Then came twilight sleep childbirth and I think we can all agree that childbirth was a lot more natural before that happened. Here we are in 2007, but do we still have a warped view as a society surrounding birth - what is natural and what isn't? I think so. Is now a good time to define or redefine what natural childbirth means even if in loose terms while we all have our interpretations beyond that?

I looked up the definitions on Merriam-Webster and Dictionary.com and I found the dates telling:

Quote:

Main Entry:
natural childbirth
Function:
noun
Date:
1933

: a system of managing childbirth in which the mother receives preparatory education in order to remain conscious during and assist in delivery with minimal or no use of drugs or anesthetics
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/natural%20childbirth

and

Quote:
natural childbirth
–noun
childbirth involving little or no use of drugs or anesthesia and usually involving a program in which the mother is psychologically and physically prepared for the birth process.
Compare psychoprophylaxis.

[Origin: 1930–35]
http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...l%20childbirth

So, this was the accepted definition for the term in the 1930s. I find it bizarre that anyone would think you had to take a class to do something "natural" or simply in order to remain conscious. That seems like the opposite of natural. *Disclaimer* - I'm not saying your births were unnatural if you took a class. I felt like I needed to take a class to try to unlearn everything I had been told growing up about childbirth.
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