Soap in vagina during pushing - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 91 Old 01-19-2008, 09:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mytwogirls View Post
I have always been told and taught it is was better to be cut than risk being ripped. It heals better and a good OB can tell when the head is in the right place whether or not it is going to fit without being ripped apart. My OB told me straight up what was going on and I said to cut, no way in hell was I going to rip.
I can't believe that an OB is still spouting this nonsense. The residency programs don't teach it and the word has gotten out through ACOG that research shows it not to be true. Irks me how many OB's get stuck in the mindset of whatever they were taught, no matter what is supported by research.
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#62 of 91 Old 01-19-2008, 09:43 PM
 
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OMG I have never heard of this. WOW. I would definitely try & get to the bottom of it. I don't personally EVER use soap down there because it gets irritated. It's a mucous membrane, like your eye. Who would put soap there?

WOW- I am so sorry this happened to you. What will they think of next? And the bubble thing, [edit] . Jeez- I just don't even know what to say about such strangeness.

At least you've got a healthy baby and the unfortunate event was never anything you could have predicted or prepared for. Who would have ever guessed THAT would happen??? What WAS that?
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#63 of 91 Old 01-20-2008, 05:31 PM
 
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I heard that 4th degree tears arer only really heard of in America because of episiotomies.......
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#64 of 91 Old 01-20-2008, 07:01 PM
 
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I heard that 4th degree tears arer only really heard of in America because of episiotomies.......
I don't know if I buy this, because I have seen 4th degrees on non-episiotomy women. The epis just makes it more likely. But if you have some research, I'd love to read it!

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#65 of 91 Old 01-20-2008, 07:32 PM
 
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I have always been told and taught it is was better to be cut than risk being ripped. It heals better and a good OB can tell when the head is in the right place whether or not it is going to fit without being ripped apart. My OB told me straight up what was going on and I said to cut, no way in hell was I going to rip.
Think of it this way. If you tear naturally you will only tear as much as necessary, if at all, to allow the baby to pass. These tears are superficial. If you are cut, you are cut through skin, muscle, and nerve. You are also cut as much as the doctor cuts you and then may have additional tearing as junestar's piece of paper example illustrates.

ATTN JUNESTARS -- you said epis are banned at your hospital.....is this becoming common?

From the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists

http://www.acog.org/from_home/public...03-31-06-2.cfm

More related links:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/511710

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/40865.php
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#66 of 91 Old 01-20-2008, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I plan on sending my letter tomorrow with the mail. Any last minute input???:


I am writing in regard to my recent childbirth experience at your hospital in September 2007. I have several concerns with staff members and procedures during and following childbirth.

When I arrived at your maternity unit, I was immediately strapped with moniters and instructed to lie in bed. I had been laboring well on my own at home for many hours and had been managing my contractions well by walking and squatting. Lying down intensified the pain and was very uncomfortable to me. When I complained to the nurse on duty, R, I was told to stay in bed until my baby woke up. This took over an hour. I remember my childbirth instructor said you had wireless moniters. Why could I not have used one of those? When I was finally allowed to walk, I had to carry the monitor cords around my neck. It was very uncomfortable and upsetting to me.

I refused an IV initially, because labor was going fine, my baby was well, and I wanted to have as natural a birth as possible. I had been drinking plenty of water. I wanted to be as mobile as possible. I did not want an epidural. I was repeatedly told I needed an IV anyway. I finally agreed to a heparin lock, but R attatched the solution without my permission. Perhaps nurses find it more convenient to introduce an IV "now" rather than "later." I do not believe it is always apporopriate for a nurse's convenience to be more important than a laboring mother's.

The doctor wanted my water broken after only a couple hours at the hospital. I did not feel my labor needed to be rushed. I was managing my contractions well, and my baby was doing fine. I finally agreed to this procedure after being in the hospital for only four hours. It made my contractions much more painful and made a mess with all the leaking fluid. Lamaze International advises a mother's labor be allowed to progress on its own with interventions only when necessary. My labor was progressing fine. Even the doctor told me I was doing well. So, why was my water broken anyway? This puts more stress on the mother and baby.

The two nurses who attended to me during labor, R and L, were complaining about how tired they were. They complained several times to me. I hadn't slept in a while and was trying to manage labor. I found their complaining inappropriate. In my vunerable state I felt guilty for inconveniencing them and not delivering my baby more quickly. This is not how a laboring mother should be made to feel by anyone, especially the nursing staff. A laboring mother needs reassurance that she is doing a good job. Sometimes I received kind and reassuring words, but the negative complaining was very discouraging.

When it came time for me to push, L squirted Johnsons Baby Shampoo into my vagina. When my sister asked her what she was doing, Linda replied, "I can make bubbles!" I'm not sure why soap was used inside my vagina. I have never read about this being part of the labor and delivery routine. Soap is irritating to mucous membranes like that in the vagina. Soap in the vagina can also cause yeast infections and urinary tract infections. A labor and delivery nurse should know this. Every woman should know this about vaginal care. Soap could also get into the baby's eyes when passing through the birth canal. I want to know why soap was used on me and what will be done to stop this nurse from using it on other patients. After two hours of soap in and tugging on my vagina, it swelled and forceps were needed to deliver my baby. I understand the possible benefits of perineal massage, but after two hours this also becomes irritating to the vagina. I believe that soap and tugging irritated my vagina and contributed to the swelling.

I have written a letter to the Johnsons company about the misuse of their product by your hospital.

During the pushing phase and in between contractions I was made to feel even more uncomfortable by L. She was nodding her head and closing her eyes as if briefly dozing. It was very upsetting to me. I felt like she hated being there and thought this baby was taking too long to come out. I knew that a normal delivery could take hours of pushing, but in my vulnerable physical and emotional state, I could not help but feel like I was inconveniencing her. I understand that nurses are very busy and need to work hard, but they should never behave like this to a laboring woman. I am more angry about the behavior of this nurse than anything else I experienced during my stay at your hospital. I request that L be reprimanded for her behavior. My husband and sister witnessed this also, and can provide letters of testimony.

I have more complaints about the behavior and inconsideration of your staff. In my room during recovery I could hear nurses complaining outside my door. I kept shutting my door, but nurses would leave it open. I would hear them complaining about how tired or busy they were. I had trouble sleeping through this. At one point a nurse shouted in the hallway, "This one's going to have a ruptured uterus and ruptured bladder!!" This is not something I wanted to hear after my difficult childbirth experience.

I received no response after pressing my call button. A nurse had taken my new baby for a test, but didn't bring her back. I did not know where my baby was. I pressed the call button, but there was no response. I had been instructed by one nurse to stay in bed and only get up with assistance. Later, a different nurse told me that I had been "taking it too easy" and needed to get up and walk around if I wanted to see my baby. I was very confused by this conflicting advice, and felt that the nurses had no right to keep my baby from me.

I am requesting that some action is taken against the staff's inappropriate conduct. Nurses need to be kind, considerate and encouraging. They also need to be kept up-to-date on current labor practices. I have enclosed a copy of Lamaze's Care Practices for normal birth. Everyone of these was violated during my childbirth. I advise that your staff read over them, and any other current literature that would be educational. Nurses also need to understand that every mother and baby are different and need individualized care.

I was also offended by the "gift bag" full of formula I was given. This is a formula company marketing to your patients and does not belong in a hospital. Many hospitals refuse to hand out this propaganda including public hospitals in New York. I believe ____ Hospital should follow their excellent example.

I will be waiting for your response.

Sincerely,

Brianna, mom to my always naked and singing Faye (9/07) and my chubby baby Bronwen (10/10).
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#67 of 91 Old 01-20-2008, 10:22 PM
 
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All of the things you mention are important, but I would focus on the main issue in this letter--that nurse acted outside the bounds of decency and should not be allowed near another patient. And it's the act that might result in viable litigation.

All the other things you mentioned are reasons to tell every pregnant woman you meet to avoid that hospital. But they're things that will distract the hospital administration from the main point and they're things that result in a "well, if you didn't want that, why didn't you just decline??" response, if they answer at all, maybe with a photocopy of your intake papers.

Take out everything but the bits about the soap, and see what you've got from there. A line about "the effects of the soap were aggravated by excessive fluids from an unnecessary IV" would fit into that main topic.

If you just want to let them know everything that is wrong with hospital maternity care, then your letter is fine. If you want that nurse to be penalized for her abusive treatment of you, focus on the specific act of abuse.
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#68 of 91 Old 01-20-2008, 10:39 PM
 
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I read your letter in your other thread, and then saw this thread. How awful! Someone posted a link in your other thread that maybe points to why they (ill advisedly) used the shampoo...something about using it prior to gynecologic surgerical procedures. I know it used to be common practice (and I'm sure it still is in some hospitals, I am sure I've seen in on A Baby Story) to use a strong antiseptic (Betadine, the brownish stuff they rub on you before surgery) all over the perineal area prior to delivery. Maybe the nurse was thinking that the baby shampoo was required as an alternative to this? Regardless, she was wrong and if they are doing it routinely, it should be stopped.

I'm sorry you had to go through such an awful experience. I hope your letter brings about some thought and action on the hospital's part.
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#69 of 91 Old 01-20-2008, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If you just want to let them know everything that is wrong with hospital maternity care, then your letter is fine. If you want that nurse to be penalized for her abusive treatment of you, focus on the specific act of abuse.
I get what you're saying. That is a good idea. My letter won't do anything to change a hospital's overall disrespect for women in labor. Addressing this specific nurse's behavior would be a better idea. I get so flooded with emotion when I am remembering the whole event. It is good to get an outsider's view. Thanks so much!

Brianna, mom to my always naked and singing Faye (9/07) and my chubby baby Bronwen (10/10).
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#70 of 91 Old 01-20-2008, 11:51 PM
 
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I get what you're saying. That is a good idea. My letter won't do anything to change a hospital's overall disrespect for women in labor. Addressing this specific nurse's behavior would be a better idea. I get so flooded with emotion when I am remembering the whole event. It is good to get an outsider's view. Thanks so much!

It was very important for you to write the full letter.
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#71 of 91 Old 01-20-2008, 11:53 PM
 
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I've also seen baby shampoo used as a lubricant during pushing. One OB joked that the baby was getting his first hair wash.
My MW used this while doing perineal massage. I trusted her and didn't think it was weird at the time, but afterward I certainly did.
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#72 of 91 Old 01-21-2008, 12:46 AM
 
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After you send your letter regarding your *horrible* birth experience, they will probably contact you regarding any other concerns that you have, and THEN you can tell them that you are upset that they issue the "bags".

Also make sure, if and when someone calls that he/she is someone that is actually IN CHARGE of all the nurses, not just a shift supervisor. You want to talk to the L&D charge nurse and if you can't talk to that person, then contact the hospital's administrative office, and speak to the CEO there. Seriously. This seems to be a major violation, I'm so sorry for your experience!

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#73 of 91 Old 01-21-2008, 01:31 AM
 
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I'm an OB RN (I mostly do post-partum). FWIW, I've never seen J&J Baby shampoo used at my facility or the other 2 hospitals I've been in,, but all facilities are a bit different.
I read your letter. I thought it was fine but wanted to suggest two things. First of all, the hospital has no control over what your doctor does really. They aren't in control of when or if he breaks your water. So I'd leave that part out. If that was an issue, you need to write a letter to him/her at his/her office.
Also, the part about notifying J&J about misuse by their facility - I'd change that.
Maybe just include something like "I don't see where on the shampoo bottle it is appropriate for internal use" (although some docs [pedis & opthamologists] recommend washing eyes out w/ baby shampoo sometimes if one has an infection). Anyway, wording it like that sounds less threatening than the other way.
I would send at least two letters - one to the L&D manager and one to the Department head of all of Women & Children's services (this will be L&D's manager's boss). This will certainly get their attention. Often times hospitals will send out patient satisfaction surveys. If you get one of these, make sure you include info about your stay as well.
I think your complaints will be taken seriously and at the very least I'm sure L&D manager will discuss at a staff meeting how negative attitudes and inappropriate comments reflect poorly with overall patient satisfaction (trust me, our dept. head ALWAYS tells us of postive & negative feedback). But you may also want to include something positive in your letter too, like if your discharge nurse was nice or if the nursery nurse was good. Anything that lets them know you're not writing just to complain for the sake of complaining will make your letter be taken a bit more seriously.

And if there is ever any doubt about what was done to you, at any point during your care, you are always entitled to view your medical record. Hospital's usually keep records on file at least one year before they send them off to be stored. The rude nurse should have documented in your nursing progress notes what she was washing you with and why.

I'm so sorry you had a bad experience. I work in a hospital and I've birthed in a hospital. I've also birthed at home with midwives. The homebirth was much more friendly and relaxed!

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#74 of 91 Old 01-21-2008, 12:53 PM
 
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You said it exactly Night Nurse. Our managers ALWAYS tell us when we get letters and let us know both ways positive and negative letters. I think the letter sounds great. Good luck next time around..NO SOAP ALLOWED
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#75 of 91 Old 01-21-2008, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I read your letter. I thought it was fine but wanted to suggest two things. First of all, the hospital has no control over what your doctor does really. They aren't in control of when or if he breaks your water. So I'd leave that part out. If that was an issue, you need to write a letter to him/her at his/her office.
I do plan to write an entirely separate letter to my OB. There are a few issues at that office I am upset about, too. They have to do with my prenatal care.

Brianna, mom to my always naked and singing Faye (9/07) and my chubby baby Bronwen (10/10).
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#76 of 91 Old 01-21-2008, 03:22 PM
 
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My heart broke reading your letter, Narn. So many painful memories of my own birth. It must have been very cathartic for you to get it out onto paper. However, I agree with the other ladies: the most important part, the bit about the soap, was lost amidst all the other complaints. I think the letter to the hospital itself should focus mainly on the soap incident, and give the full letter to your OB. Maybe you could also write another version focusing on the sour attitudes of the nurses and send it to the nurses who attended you? Their names should be in your medical records, I believe.
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#77 of 91 Old 01-30-2008, 12:04 AM
 
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Was there any resolution to this Narn? I had some issues when I delivered my first baby in the hospital. My 3 boys after that have been home births, and hopefully my 5th, which is expected soon, will be born there as well.
Let us know how it all went. I hope you got some resolution.

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#78 of 91 Old 02-04-2008, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have edited the letter to focus solely on the nurse that attended during delivery.
Now I am just waiting for a response. Thanks for showing interest! Makes me feel less lonely about the whole thing... if that makes any sense.

Brianna, mom to my always naked and singing Faye (9/07) and my chubby baby Bronwen (10/10).
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#79 of 91 Old 02-04-2008, 05:35 PM
 
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I've been following this thread and thinking about you, too. Please let us know what kind of response you get. I hope they take your complaint seriously.
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#80 of 91 Old 02-05-2008, 05:21 AM
 
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So, no evidence-based reason for doing it other than custom? It never fails to amaze me how many common obstetric practices are so completely mother-unfriendly

This thread makes me wonder what else was done to me when I was laboring with my first baby. Only because of my records do I know that I was given pitocin, and some device was inserted into my vagina and SCREWED/STUCK in to the scalp of my baby without my knowledge or permission. Coincedentally, my son had a reddish/purplish mark on his head that the doctors explained away at the time as a "stork bite" Gee, I wonder what caused that?

It really makes me wonder why birth "professionals" can get away with doing the above and other potentially damaging procedures without having to, at the bare minimum, get permission from the mother. Is that to much to freakin' ask? Really!?

And to the OP, I am sorry that happened to you mama. That is so wrong, it really makes me want to cry And I am glad someone saw that happen. Please let us know what happens.

Mama to my spirited J, and L, my homebirth: baby especially DTaP, MMR (family vax injuries)
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#81 of 91 Old 02-05-2008, 10:48 AM
 
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subbing!

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#82 of 91 Old 02-05-2008, 11:25 AM
 
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Only because of my records do I know that I was given pitocin, and some device was inserted into my vagina and SCREWED/STUCK in to the scalp of my baby without my knowledge or permission.
I'm not sure from your post, but if it wasn't clear what that device was - it's the internal monitor for CFM - continuous fetal monitoring. That's how they can get consistent heartrate readouts for your baby while you're in labor. Of course, it requires that they break your water and screw an electrode into your baby's scalp, but that's completely worth it for a heartrate strip that different doctors interpret differently and the same doctor interprets differently at different times, and has not been shown to improve outcomes.
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#83 of 91 Old 02-05-2008, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It really makes me wonder why birth "professionals" can get away with doing the above and other potentially damaging procedures without having to, at the bare minimum, get permission from the mother. Is that to much to freakin' ask? Really!?
Yeah, even the OBGYN always lets me know what's going on, like, "okay, I'm just going to ____ now. You'll feel ____."

When I contacted Johnson & Johnson, the woman I spoke to said she had never heard of Baby Shampoo being used during delivery and that it is never recommended to be used in the genital area. She apologized to me. Even though it was not the company's fault, it still helps to hear that.

Since sending out the letter and calling Johnsons I have thought about the whole delivery less and less. But I am still going to see that something gets changed.

Brianna, mom to my always naked and singing Faye (9/07) and my chubby baby Bronwen (10/10).
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#84 of 91 Old 02-11-2008, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I got a letter back from the quality officer at the hospital acknowledging my complaint of the nurse's behaviour and use of the shampoo. There was an apology and a promise that the issue was investigated and discussed with the nurse and nurse manager. It was what I expected. It's good to know that this shampoo use might stop now. At least I hope it will for other women's sake.

I think limiting my letter to just those two issues was a good idea.

Now I wonder if they were ever contacted by the shampoo company.

Brianna, mom to my always naked and singing Faye (9/07) and my chubby baby Bronwen (10/10).
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#85 of 91 Old 02-11-2008, 06:10 PM
 
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Narn, that is a very positive response! I am so glad you took the time to do this! You have probably saved dozens of women from going through the same thing that you did. I know this doesn't heal the trauma of what happened to you, but I hope it helps you feel better.

Great job!

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#86 of 91 Old 02-12-2008, 01:30 AM
 
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I am glad they apologized to you and are following up on the issue. Good for you for writing them!

Mama to M (7/05) and S (5/08) my surprise !!!
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#87 of 91 Old 02-12-2008, 06:25 PM
 
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I'm so sorry mama! I can't even sit in a bubble bath without having issues, I can't imagine actually having that in my vagina!

to the pp who picked the epi. vs. tearing. Just because they cut you doesn't mean you won't also tear. With tearing you have that risk but with the episiotomy you STILL have the risk of tearing so now you have a cut and a rip through (and possibly beyond) the cut area. Also, just because they told you you'd tear doesn't mean you will. They told my DH that with my first birth and in the end gave me an episotomy. I was pissed but the dr. had my DH convinced I was going to tear in "all directions and have multiple tears to suture". Amazingly enough my second DD had the SAME head size and a larger chest than DD1 and I didn't tear. It's all situational but in the end it is better to tear naturally than it is to cut.

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#88 of 91 Old 07-25-2008, 04:01 PM
 
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Narn, what happened afterwards? Any other letters? I'd love to know!
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#89 of 91 Old 07-26-2008, 11:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Nothing since my last post! Well, Johnsons had me sign a paper so they could get a copy of my medical records, but I don't know if they ever got them. I ordered a copy of them myself. No where on any page does it say anything about the soap. Go figure.

Brianna, mom to my always naked and singing Faye (9/07) and my chubby baby Bronwen (10/10).
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#90 of 91 Old 07-27-2008, 12:28 AM
 
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Good to hear Johnson's is following up.

I cannot imagine the effects of this on me. I would have ended up with one heck of a yeast infection as even the occasional bubble bath flares them up in me.

Good for you for following up!

Surviving sleep deprivation one day at a time with dd (Oct '11) & ds (Oct '08).

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