used to feel homebirth was best... but not anymore - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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#181 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna View Post
IME homebirthers are MUCH more educated on the risks on BOTH sides than hospital birthers.

-Angela
Oh I agree with this 100% I have a friend (of a friend really) who is a student midwife currently working in labor and delivery in one of the largest hospitals in the LA area. She said that when she goes through her required list of questions for women who check in to L & D that 9 out of 10 first time mothers have no birth plan, have taken no childbirth prep classes and have studied no method for pain management. They just assume they go to the hospital and do what the doctor tells them to do and go home with a baby.
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#182 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:08 PM
 
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If you're a Dr. Amy aficionado, I'm sure you have responses to this, but the BMJ study is the one generally relied upon these days. Mortality, for mother and baby, was equal in home and hospital for low-risk mothers. Morbidity was lower at home.

I don't want to get into a big debate of study methods, arguing how data was parsed, etc. If you don't know Dr. Amy's website, I'd be happy to pass it on to you as she does a lot of that and it might be interesting for you. But from your posts, I'm guessing you already visit that site. HTH.
I am not going to take your response as "snark" though it reads that way.

Yes, I know who Dr. "X" is.

In fact, I am banned from ever posting there.

I have had 2 out-of-hospital births. One a waterbirth.

I have taught childbirth classes to homebirth couples for over 7 years.

Some of my best friends are homebirth midwives who send their clients to me.

Do my "natural birth credentials" pass the test? Ok, that was a bit of "snark" from me.

It does not do anyone any good to ignore the facts. We must be willing to face them and accept them or we are doing ourselves (and our families) a disservice.

I am not anti-homebirth (obviously) but I am for understanding the truth about all of our options.
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#183 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:09 PM
 
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Thought this was an interesting quote from Peggy O'Mara (the owner and publisher of Mothering Magazine/MDC):

Quote:
When a birth doesn't turn out as we hoped it would, we often look for someone to blame. Sometimes we blame our practitioner, sometimes we blame others present at the birth, and often we blame ourselves. Someone recently asked me if I thought that homebirth was the only normal type of birth. I said, "No, of course not." Mothering publishes articles about homebirth to give people one image of normal birth. If we believe that homebirth is safe, then we will believe that birth itself is safe. And because birth in any setting can be safe, its integrity is based not on where it takes place, but on the quality of the experience. With this in mind, let us work together as parents and professionals to imagine and implement a high quality of maternity care in the US. The time is right.
From her current editorial

Please take care to avoid making this topic personal in an effort to keep the thread on the board.

Please also avoid mentioning *other* sites that are antithetical to Mothering's advocacy and values. Edits would be helpful. Thanks!

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#184 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:10 PM
 
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OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#185 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:12 PM
 
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Ahem

I really don't want to have to remove this thread. It's a lot of work on my part Please consider editing to remove references to other discussion sites whether they are specifically named or not. Thank you

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#186 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:13 PM
 
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This whole discussion reminds me a lot of the vaccination debate. For me, the big issue with the way vaccines are done in the USA and elsewhere is that is it "one size fits all."

Framing the debate on homebirth/hospital as "X is safer than Y" also risks this same problem.

With vaccines, family history, travel, area you live in, conditions you live in, sensitivities, illness, and other risk factors come into play.

Just as with vaccines, "where to birth" cannot be boiled down to an AAP recommended schedule or a College of OBGYN recommendation. It can't be contained in one or two studies....it has to be individualized to each woman. her condition, risk factors, history, and current pregnancy and situations along with the risks and benefits of the specific hospitals in her area must be taken into account.

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#187 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:23 PM
 
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I wanted to say that I am truely sorry for your experience OP. And am glad you and baby are okay in the long run. On that note, I don't really see how your experience proves homebirth to be unsafe by any means. Actually, I see the oposite in your story. IMO, homebirth teaches us one very important thing, and that is to listen to our bodies, and instincts. This is something you did EXCELLENTLY in your birth. You knew right away that something was wrong, and you got yourself to a place where you could be taken care of. Again, IMO, hospitals generally take away from our womenly insticts during labor. I deffinately beleive that homebirth is safer then a hospital birth for the generall public. Doctors have their place, and in your situation, they saved a life that day. And that is what they are here for if we need them. But unfortunately in a normal birth, being in a hospital can cause more harm then good. I saw your stats of the rareity of your condition being 1/60,000 births. I would like to see stats that show uncomplicated births in a hospital virsus at home, and compare outcomes including use of iv's, meds, vacuum, foreseps, appesioutamy, c-section, (and the medical effects on those to mom and baby). Also treatment of mom and baby afterbirth, cutting cord, taking baby away, interfiering with breastfeeding relationship, (and the effects these things had on mom and baby long term). And the flip side of all of these not being used in a homebirth. And any negetive effects of not having these things present in a birth. Oh, I am sure they are out there, and I am betting the odds are quite a bit higer then 1/60,000 for things to go wrong in a hospital in an otherwise normal birth.

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#188 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ixcuina View Post
I am not going to take your response as "snark" though it reads that way.

Yes, I know who <snip for MDC mods!> is.

In fact, I am banned from ever posting there.

I have had 2 out-of-hospital births. One a waterbirth.

I have taught childbirth classes to homebirth couples for over 7 years.

Some of my best friends are homebirth midwives who send their clients to me.

Do my "natural birth credentials" pass the test? Ok, that was a bit of "snark" from me.

It does not do anyone any good to ignore the facts. We must be willing to face them and accept them or we are doing ourselves (and our families) a disservice.

I am not anti-homebirth (obviously) but I am for understanding the truth about all of our options.
I think you've misunderstood me. Understandable, since it's hard to get tone across online.

I have had one UC/hospital transfer and one home waterbirth. I'm strongly considering having an epidural in a hospital next time. Hope that shakes you up a bit, too!

I didn't think for a minute you were 100% anti-homebirth. And I think some rational and reasonable points mat be made "against" homebirth. There are points of value to examine when looking at the data. I don't dispute that. At the end of the day, though, because there is dispute and because the data is difficult to parse and some of it is based on personal perspective, it's not reasonable or rational, IMO, for anyone to tell low-risk mothers where to birth. They should educate themselves and make the best decision for themselves.

If you read my first post, I validated the OP's position and choice. I feel it's entirely valid. I'm not a rabid homebirth supporter. It has to be an informed choice. So should hospital birth be, but that's not and is not going to be the case for the vast majority of mothers. Personally, I think homebirth probably is a bit riskier than hospital birth in terms of rare catastrophic outcomes, despite the BMJ study. And I think some good points have been made about that (elsewhere). But that does not, IMO, invalidate the homebirth choice. Each individual must make the choice that is correct for her. She must examine the attendant risks and benefits and choose. And she should be informed - fully informed.

I think we're on the same side. Or similar. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.
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#189 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:32 PM
 
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I've read a good bit of this thread, but not all.

OP, I do believe that home birth is safer for low risk women (on average) compared to hospital bith--which is why, as long as I am considered low risk, I will plan homebirths.

HOWEVER, I do also believe that hospital birth CAN be improved to the point where the safety will surpass homebirth. Many of the things that hospital birth causes don't have to be. It would take monumental shifts in protocol and culture, but it's fully possible for hospitals (or more specialized birth centers--facilities with hospital capabilities, but where only birthing women go) to have lower morbitity and mortality rates.


I do not believe it is at all reasonable to expect a woman to labor effectively at the same time as interacting with hospital personel--esp if she's having to fend off procedures left and right. I'm sure some women can get into "the zone" and continue to produce the endorphins she needs in a hospital just as I am sure some women cannot.

If there ever is that monumental shift in birth protocol that allows women to be *entirely* alone or only have the monitoring that is normative of homebirth except when the need for more intervention arises then, sure, I think the risk/benefit of home vs. hospital might shift. Until then, homebirth is still statistically safer for low risk women.

In short, I am all for the third option you propose and I think homebirth should always be a legally protected option too.

oh-- and I've had a hospital transfer with my first and a completed homebirth with my second.

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#190 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:33 PM
 
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As for the topic of this thread-- I would rather both the baby and I die from a freak accident than have this baby in the hospital "just in case." If I had OP's birth experience, I might feel different. But I had my first birth experience, and I am too afraid to go to the hospital again unless I feel something is WRONG. At least I know that if I/we die at home, it would be from natural causes, not because someone wanted me to slow down until business hours and hurry up for their coffee break. And I know that no one at home is going to gleefully cut me open while I'm screaming "NO"... I reiterate- I'd rather die than to experience that level of shame, humiliation, guilt, fear, anger, rape, helplessness, and agony again. Flashes of it are with me everyday-- much more now that I am pregnant again.
I think this is the crux of the issue. I've written about 6 posts to this thread, and deleted them all, until now. So here goes...

I had both of my children in the hospital, by c-section after rather quick/easy labor/dilation and hours of pushing in various positions, etc....I knew what I was getting into, and mitigated interventions as much as I possibly could so I feel like I wasn't railroaded and made informed decisions based on the knowledge and physical/emotional resources I had at the time. Still disappointed and will always wonder if things would have been different if I had just done X, but I feel far from violated, which must be so horrific.

However. For *me*, the thought of me or my baby dying at home (or en route to the hospital) from something that could have been prevented at a hospital is just too much for me to bear. I realize that the likelihood of it happening is really, *really* rare. And I realize that it's mostly about my own issues and fear. I also realize that bad things happen in hospitals and people are bullied and have things done to them and get infections and other problems. I *know* all that. I know that in many hospitals, women cannot manage interventions and are bullied. But still, I would not be comfortable having a homebirth. And there it is.

HOWEVER however. I also would never dream of trying to tell any other woman that she should birth in a hospital if *she* is most comfortable birthing at home. And I'd never try to tell someone that hospital birth is safer than homebirth. Because I know that's not the case. It is SO individual to each birth. I know that hospital births can lead to unnecessary interventions and other potential problems (but then I also have several friends IRL who walked into the hospital in labor, had no interventions, not even a hep lock, and wonderful spontaneous vaginal births). I guess from my own personal point of view, my ability to recover physically and emotionally from the potential problems at a hospital is greater than my ability to recover physically and emotionally from the potential of losing a child to a rare occurrence that could have been prevented being in the hospital...but I suppose if something had happened AT a hospital that killed my child that likely would not have happened at home, I would probably feel differently. It's all about our scopes of experience, our own personal 'issues', and how we process things.

I'm sure most of you probably think I'm crazy or uninformed or whatever to not want to birth at home. And I'll be honest, I'm envious of homebirthers, because it does sound so heavenly to me. I guess just not heavenly enough, for *me*. And I'll always have the chicken/egg thing going on in my brain, if I would have been secure enough to birth at home would I have been able to push the kids out, or would I have had to transfer anyway because neither of them would descend even though, especially the second time, I was unfettered and pushed in every position conceivable? There were several mamas in my DDC who were passionate about homebirth and made herculean (seriously) efforts to homebirth and wound up having to transfer for real complications and wound up with emergency sections. So I don't know. Would it have happened for me at home? Would it not? I'll never know, because I'm done having children. But the 'what if' of whether I *honest to God medically needed* the sections or not is something that I can deal with, and comes into my mind less frequently as time goes on. It was my body, my choice, and I'm able to heal. The 'what if' I would go through if I lost a child and it could have been prevented in a hospital, or the thought of leaving my first child motherless are 'what ifs' I just would not be able to recover from. The guilt I would place on myself would just be too much to bear. But that's *me*.

I think that's where we're all different; our ability to get over and process different events is as individual as our personalities and our DNA.

The point is, I'd never take it upon myself to tell any other woman what *her* fears and deal breakers should be. I know my own personal fears and deal breakers regarding birth itself are pretty different from most members here. And my willingness to accept potential risks from the medical community are foreign to most here. But once the babe is earthside, I'm pretty well aligned with MDC, so that's why I stay around, and lurk in the homebirth section from time to time, and read wonderful homebirth stories and cry tears of joy.

Peace, ladies.

Heather, WAHM to DS (01/04)DD (06/06). Wed to DH(09/97)
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#191 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 03:35 PM
 
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I could handle it if something happened to the baby or I at home (well not really, but be more at peace with it) than if something happened to the baby or I at a hospital.

My sister contracted a serious infection at the hospital when she was born, and it was touch and go for a while.

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#192 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 04:02 PM
 
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I just wanted to add to this....

I had a birth center birth with my 3rd and I hemorrhaged immediately after her birth. My midwives did more for me in 3 minutes than the hospital did in 2 hours. Yes, bad things can happen. That doesnt mean that the outcome will be horrible. I was bleeding, gushing blood, for over 3 hours before they did a D and C on me. THREE HOURS. They were all freaking out over everything-yet they made me wait 3 hours. The nurses told me later that they had a mom the week before deliver in the hospital, lose less blood than me, and she didnt make it. Obviously delivering in the hospital is not some magic cure all.

I was at the hospital within 10 minutes of my bleeding starting. My midwives were the ones who got IVs started, who removed the clots preventing my uterus from contracting at all, who gave me 3 seperate meds to help my uterus contract. They reduced the bleeding a lot. When I got to the hospital, I had 10 cytotec pills shoved up my bum and that was the extent of their care. I also got to listen to nurses going on about how this was my fault for not having a hospital birth, the OB telling me I was going to have a hystorectomy, my midwives being treated like garbage.

The whole reason this happened was that the baby, who was not genetically mine (I was a surrogate), had an extremely short cord and it pulled on the placenta on her way out, leaving a little chunk behind. There is absolutely no way that they could have known this and there is no way that me having her at a hospital would have changed ANYTHING.

Looking back, would I do it again knowing what would happen? YES. Why? Because at least the baby was born and healthy and never had to go near the hospital. The treatment hospitals give to newborns sickens me and I'm so glad that she never had to deal with that. Instead, her mom and dad got to bond with her and snuggle her the whole time.

I had a homebirth after this with no problems at all. I am planning another one. My dh knows that if it even happens again, that he is NOT to bring the baby to the hospital, at least until I am able to nurse.

Having said that, I know my body, if I felt something was wrong, yes, I would go to the hospital to at least be checked out. I had my 2nd in the hospital because of preeclampsia. Stuff does happen and I am glad for the technology at the hospital that can save peoples lives. That doesnt mean we all have to be there; homebirth is still perfectly safe and I have no doubt that the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent. Honestly, something is odd with this pregnancy, and we dont know what, but if we find something out or I feel like I should be at the hospital, I'll go.

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#193 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 04:39 PM
 
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Birth is not one size fits all. It's a hard lesson that I'm learning myself. It's also important to remember that a persons ideal birth doesn't always align with their history and what is safest for them.

Obviously the OP is processing her birth and like all women, needs time to work through it. That may continue for years and her feelings on what is best my change and evolve.
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#194 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 05:28 PM
 
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I had both of my children in the hospital, by c-section after rather quick/easy labor/dilation and hours of pushing in various positions, etc....I knew what I was getting into, and mitigated interventions as much as I possibly could so I feel like I wasn't railroaded and made informed decisions based on the knowledge and physical/emotional resources I had at the time. Still disappointed and will always wonder if things would have been different if I had just done X, but I feel far from violated, which must be so horrific.

However. For *me*, the thought of me or my baby dying at home (or en route to the hospital) from something that could have been prevented at a hospital is just too much for me to bear. I realize that the likelihood of it happening is really, *really* rare. And I realize that it's mostly about my own issues and fear. I also realize that bad things happen in hospitals and people are bullied and have things done to them and get infections and other problems. I *know* all that. I know that in many hospitals, women cannot manage interventions and are bullied. But still, I would not be comfortable having a homebirth. And there it is.

HOWEVER however. I also would never dream of trying to tell any other woman that she should birth in a hospital if *she* is most comfortable birthing at home. And I'd never try to tell someone that hospital birth is safer than homebirth. Because I know that's not the case. It is SO individual to each birth. I know that hospital births can lead to unnecessary interventions and other potential problems (but then I also have several friends IRL who walked into the hospital in labor, had no interventions, not even a hep lock, and wonderful spontaneous vaginal births). I guess from my own personal point of view, my ability to recover physically and emotionally from the potential problems at a hospital is greater than my ability to recover physically and emotionally from the potential of losing a child to a rare occurrence that could have been prevented being in the hospital...but I suppose if something had happened AT a hospital that killed my child that likely would not have happened at home, I would probably feel differently. It's all about our scopes of experience, our own personal 'issues', and how we process things.

I'm sure most of you probably think I'm crazy or uninformed or whatever to not want to birth at home. And I'll be honest, I'm envious of homebirthers, because it does sound so heavenly to me. I guess just not heavenly enough, for *me*. And I'll always have the chicken/egg thing going on in my brain, if I would have been secure enough to birth at home would I have been able to push the kids out, or would I have had to transfer anyway because neither of them would descend even though, especially the second time, I was unfettered and pushed in every position conceivable? There were several mamas in my DDC who were passionate about homebirth and made herculean (seriously) efforts to homebirth and wound up having to transfer for real complications and wound up with emergency sections. So I don't know. Would it have happened for me at home? Would it not? I'll never know, because I'm done having children. But the 'what if' of whether I *honest to God medically needed* the sections or not is something that I can deal with, and comes into my mind less frequently as time goes on. It was my body, my choice, and I'm able to heal. The 'what if' I would go through if I lost a child and it could have been prevented in a hospital, or the thought of leaving my first child motherless are 'what ifs' I just would not be able to recover from. The guilt I would place on myself would just be too much to bear. But that's *me*.

I think that's where we're all different; our ability to get over and process different events is as individual as our personalities and our DNA.

The point is, I'd never take it upon myself to tell any other woman what *her* fears and deal breakers should be. I know my own personal fears and deal breakers regarding birth itself are pretty different from most members here. And my willingness to accept potential risks from the medical community are foreign to most here. But once the babe is earthside, I'm pretty well aligned with MDC, so that's why I stay around, and lurk in the homebirth section from time to time, and read wonderful homebirth stories and cry tears of joy.

Peace, ladies.
This was a beautiful post and I think you are FAR from crazy! In fact you sound VERY informed! Why? Because you are making good decisions for YOU and not trying to force them onto anyone else, and at the same time acknowledging that the opposite choice is also valid and safe. That's wonderful, and quite admirable. I can't imagine anyone being bothered by your stance, not even here.

If a woman is not comfortable with choosing homebirth for ANY reason then she shouldn't have one. Same goes for a woman uncomfortable with the hospital! Any kind of cookie-cutter mentality bothers me. We are all SO different. Each woman is different. Each pregnancy that each woman has will be different. Each labor and birth is different. Each baby is different. To expect the same outcome by squeezing all these variables into the same mold each and every time is foolish. Ever since we were children we've been told over and over how unique each of us is....why should that change now that we're adults?
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#195 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 05:41 PM
 
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OP as far as stats go your birth would be included in the home birth numbers- just like in the BMJ article on home birth where the gal transferred in early labor and the hospital ruptured membranes and prolapsed the cord and the baby died. You would actually be a "success" story because you transferred and even though you had all those complications you and your baby are still alive.
In reading though your story it is an amazing set of fortunate events that prevented your death.

where was your placenta attached low, high?
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#196 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 06:27 PM
 
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I agree with other posters who have said that the key to the OP's situation was listening to her intuition when she felt something was not normal.

OP- In my case my son and I were happy and healthy BECAUSE we stayed home. My 2nd son had true shoulder dystocia. Honestly I had a feeling the whole pregnancy that he would- I don't know why. That's why I decided against having him unassisted like I had originally planned. I felt I would need a pair of skilled hands to help him out. I also decided against a hospital birth because I know that my midwife is more skilled (and has experience) calmly handling such an emergency whereas most Dr.s will freak out and start wasting time doing things like cutting an episiotomy or pushing on your stomach(makes no sense because shoulder dystocia is a problem with bone, not skin and an epi does nothing to enlarge the pelvis just the skin and muscle, pushing on a woman's stomach just gets the baby even more lodged). In fact, I had a friend who had her baby 5 days before my son was born at the local hospital and her baby also had shoulder dystocia and what did they do? They had 4 nurses on her belly applying pressure while the Dr. was freaking out and tugging every which way on the baby. The baby ended up with a black eye and she tore badly. It took them a while to get him out of her. Me on the other hand, I didn't even know there was an emergency- my midwife was just calmly working him out and telling me to push when I needed to in order to get his body the rest of the way out. My son was fine and I didn't even tear. There was no chaos or panic.

I don't think there is one right answer as to where is safest to birth. You have to weigh the risks of home vs risks of hospital (btw Marsden Wagner wrote a good bit about the risk of amniotic fluid embolism being higher among women who are given Pitocin). It is always important to listen to your body and intuition in pregnancy, labor, and birth. Your story is a powerful exam ple of that. Thank you for sharing.

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#197 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 07:05 PM
 
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We cannot prevent all birth related deaths. It's just not possible, even in an ideal world. One of the big differences in philosophy between hospital birth proponents and homebirth proponents is whether we understand and accept that. Hospital proponents, in general, believe that if we just do enough, interfere enough, sacrifice our babies' health and our mental wellbeing, our breastfeeding relationships, our power and autonomy, we can have a guarantee. We can have a symbolic talisman that will protect us. But it's not true - we introduce more risks that way, trade one type of death risk for another.
This encapsulates my feeling on the topic, but I've never really been able to put it into words. I personally wasn't ready to have a homebirth until I could move from feeling that if I had a bad outcome at home, it wouldn't mean I was any more guilty of causing it than if I had had a bad outcome at a hospital. There is the idea that if you give birth at a hospital, you are doing all you can do, but at some point I really began to feel that that just wasn't a good enough reason. It's not that I'm against hospital birth, and I might actually choose one, but I definitely support a major overhaul with our medical system and how we handle birthing in the hospital.
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#198 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 07:50 PM
 
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I just wanted to add to this....

homebirth is still perfectly safe and I have no doubt that the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent.
Ok, here is where I find myself going

Respectfully, how exactly did you come to this conclusion?

Honestly?

Homebirth and even simply giving birth with a midwife is something that such a tiny minority of those of us who live in the USA do. And as most of you know, there are constant threats to the continuing legality (in the states where it is legal!) of homebirth here.

It really behooves anyone who cares about continued choice in birth to not be spouting out "truths" unless they are sure of the truthfulness of them. I realize I am using the word "truths" and we could argue for ages about what that actually means and who gets to decide what the "truth" is, etc.

But, I am sure most people understand what I am saying.

If you say "I have no doubt that the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent" and "homebirth is perfectly safe" then you really should be able to back it up.

Just my opinion, of course.
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#199 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 07:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ixcuina View Post
Ok, here is where I find myself going

Respectfully, how exactly did you come to this conclusion?

Honestly?

Homebirth and even simply giving birth with a midwife is something that such a tiny minority of those of us who live in the USA do. And as most of you know, there are constant threats to the continuing legality (in the states where it is legal!) of homebirth here.

It really behooves anyone who cares about continued choice in birth to not be spouting out "truths" unless they are sure of the truthfulness of them. I realize I am using the word "truths" and we could argue for ages about what that actually means and who gets to decide what the "truth" is, etc.

But, I am sure most people understand what I am saying.

If you say "I have no doubt that the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent" and "homebirth is perfectly safe" then you really should be able to back it up.

Just my opinion, of course.
Haven't studies been linked in this thread already? Or did I miss something?

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#200 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 08:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Romana9+2 View Post
I think you've misunderstood me. Understandable, since it's hard to get tone across online.

I have had one UC/hospital transfer and one home waterbirth. I'm strongly considering having an epidural in a hospital next time. Hope that shakes you up a bit, too!

I didn't think for a minute you were 100% anti-homebirth. And I think some rational and reasonable points mat be made "against" homebirth. There are points of value to examine when looking at the data. I don't dispute that. At the end of the day, though, because there is dispute and because the data is difficult to parse and some of it is based on personal perspective, it's not reasonable or rational, IMO, for anyone to tell low-risk mothers where to birth. They should educate themselves and make the best decision for themselves.


I think we're on the same side. Or similar. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.

Romana9+2,
thanks for the clarification. Like we have both said, sometimes the tone of the conversation is lost with the internet!

I completely agree that it is not reasonable or rational to tell low-risk women where to birth. Absolutely!

And are the studies that have been done so far lacking and the data difficult to parse? Absolutely!

My whole point is that there are some complications that cannot be dealt with at home in the same manner that they can be dealt with in a hospital setting. And, in the case of these rare but possible complications if they happen, there is a much greater risk of death at home. Fact.

Does that mean everyone should rush to their nearest hospital to give birth so that no one dies??? Well, I can't answer that. I would not want to answer that. It is only for the woman (and her family?) to answer that on an individual basis.

I have no problem with homebirth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has never given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.

But, I admit, it just *bugs* me personally. Nothing I want to do about it on a whole. I am mostly venting! Though, I do think that in the long run it can harm the continued ability to give birth at home for some women in states where the legality is being undermined. And, as an educator, I believe strongly in the importance of being fully informed about your choices.

My .02~!
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#201 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 08:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thefragile7393 View Post
Haven't studies been linked in this thread already? Or did I miss something?
There are no studies that show homebirth to be "perfectly safe".

And there are no studies showing that "the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent."

I know some of us would like to believe this. But, that does not make it true.
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#202 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 08:05 PM
 
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And are the studies that have been done so far lacking and the data difficult to parse? Absolutely!
What makes them lacking? Honestly, I'm curious. It seems odd that one would demand proof and then when such proof is provided say that it's not good enough, so if there are flaws in the numerous studies provided in this thread, I'd like to know what they are so I can further educate myself.
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#203 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 08:24 PM
 
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What makes them lacking? Honestly, I'm curious. It seems odd that one would demand proof and then when such proof is provided say that it's not good enough, so if there are flaws in the numerous studies provided in this thread, I'd like to know what they are so I can further educate myself.
Hi barefootpoetry,

I am about to make a grocery run and move on to dinner demands

But, I will get back to you later. For now, understand that I am saying (and I am not the only one) that the studies that have been done so far comparing homebirth to hospital birth all have a certain amount of issues with them (understandable, because it is difficult to compare 'apples to oranges' but it is possible to be done in a reasonable way).

So, I have not "demanded proof" only to get it and then say it is not good enough. My "demand" for proof was more of a rhetorical statement. I know that there is no "proof" that homebirth is "perfectly safe" or proof for the other comments I have pointed out. I think it is important to not throw out statements like that willy-nilly. It doesn't help "the cause".
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#204 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 08:30 PM
 
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Hi barefootpoetry,

I am about to make a grocery run and move on to dinner demands

But, I will get back to you later. For now, understand that I am saying (and I am not the only one) that the studies that have been done so far comparing homebirth to hospital birth all have a certain amount of issues with them (understandable, because it is difficult to compare 'apples to oranges' but it is possible to be done in a reasonable way).

So, I have not "demanded proof" only to get it and then say it is not good enough. My "demand" for proof was more of a rhetorical statement. I know that there is no "proof" that homebirth is "perfectly safe" or proof for the other comments I have pointed out. I think it is important to not throw out statements like that willy-nilly. It doesn't help "the cause".
Understood. I'm sure most of us would agree that NOTHING in life is "perfectly safe," especially birth, and yes, you are right in saying that there is no study that says that. However, I have read a good deal of them that DO say it is equally safe, if not marginally safer, than hospital birth for low-risk women. Perhaps that is what other posters here are meaning, and are just getting a little carried away with their wording?

I look forward to your views on the studies! I'm always eager to learn something new.
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#205 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 08:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ixcuina View Post
I have no problem with homebirth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has never given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.
I have no problem with hospital birth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.

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#206 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 08:34 PM
 
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Home birth is not completely safe.

Hospital birth is not completely safe.

Human childbirth has its own inherent risks.

It simply comes down to educating a woman about her choices and allowing her to make take the calculated risks in the location she is most comfortable and chooses to birth in.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#207 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 08:53 PM
 
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coming in here telling us how we are wrong without proving your side is really going to convince nobody.

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#208 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 09:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tireesix View Post
As far as I am concerned, I believe the following:

Some mums are better off at hospital, even if low risk, because their fear will cause problems with the birth and for the same reason, some mums will be better off at home. I cannot imagine (well, actually, having done it I can) birthing somewhere that causes you fear.
Very well said, and great point. That's exactly why I could never birth in a hospital- I am deathly afraid of the idea. Some women are deathly afraid of homebirth...that's not a bad thing, it's how they feel. It's good to be educated on both sides, though.

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Originally Posted by aprilgurlie View Post
I have no beef with any of you here. I would just love to see MDC a little more open to differing opinions, as I said in an earlier post. Let us tread lightly with our words.
So, should we start being supportive of circumcision? Start encouraging mamas to not bother with breastfeeding, formula is "just as good"? Should we encourage mamas to CIO and spank their children?

This forum has a theme and a purpose. It is to support and encourage mothers who choose natural ways of parenting their children. There's plenty of opinions within that spectrum without bringing other topics in. In general, this community as a whole is more supportive, and agrees more with, of homebirths than hospital births. The community shouldn't have to change their opinions and beliefs to welcome other ideas and beliefs that don't really mesh with MDC.


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This is absolutely NOT true. But, it is often the "truth" that gets spoken. It is unfortunate. Why are we so afraid of the truth?
I agree, why are you so afraid of the truth? You seem to be picking and choosing "truths" so you can believe what you want.

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Originally Posted by the_lissa View Post
I could handle it if something happened to the baby or I at home (well not really, but be more at peace with it) than if something happened to the baby or I at a hospital.
My thoughts exactly- I'm glad someone else voiced them as well.

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#209 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 09:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by the_lissa View Post
I have no problem with hospital birth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.
And I would have a problem with that too. You get that, right?

There is no such thing as a "perfectly safe" birth choice.
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#210 of 246 Old 04-09-2008, 09:50 PM
 
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I agree, why are you so afraid of the truth? You seem to be picking and choosing "truths" so you can believe what you want.

You don't seem to understand what I am saying. What truth am I afraid of exactly? Did you really read my previous posts? I have had 2 out-of-hospital births. I have taught childbirth classes to women planning homebirths for many years. I have the support and friendship of all the local midwives. Some of them have attended my classes.

I only say these things to point out that I am far from an "anti-homebirth" person or a "pro-hospital" person.

I would just prefer that those of us who birth at home do so knowing full well what the risks specific to that choice are.

This should not be cause for an uproar. Or an attack.
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