A friend's OB has a sign prohibiting doulas - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-07-2008, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
VeganCupcake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I was visiting a friend yesterday who had a baby two days before I did. She asked me about my homebirth.

Friend: Did you have a . . . what's the word? I'm going to sound really naive. A . . . doula?
Me: Yes, I did. She was great. I'm really glad I hired her.
Friend: My OB's office has a sign that says, "We do not accept clients with doulas." What does a doula do?
Me: She's a professional labor companion who does non-medical stuff. She'll rub your back, get you a snack, talk to you, or anything that would make you more comfortable. Blah blah blah, me waxing poetic about how fantastic my doula was, while thinking .

I knew there were OBs who didn't like doulas or certain childbirth education, but I was surprised to meet someone who would make use of the services of a doctor like that!

Catherine, mama to Preschooler Girl 9/08, and Toddler Boy 3/11

VeganCupcake is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-07-2008, 06:18 PM
 
moderngal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
that's horrible!!

modern-mama to DS (5.16.05) and DD (9.11.08) and one more (GIRL!) coming in December
moderngal is offline  
Old 10-07-2008, 06:56 PM
 
srneda78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow! I have never heard such a thing before.
srneda78 is offline  
Old 10-07-2008, 07:09 PM
 
TiredX2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: it appears to be a handbasket
Posts: 20,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You know what? I think that is great.

I really do. I get sick of doctors trying to "say the right thing." Because if they don't mean it, it's going to come back and bite you on the ass. Doctors who "say" they support bfeeding, but give formula samples and blame every little problem on nursing. Doctors who "say" they support natural birth but set every one of their clients up for an epidural and try to scare the heck out of them.

There are plenty of people out there who don't want a doula and I give that doctor a for being honest about his approach. You can know, for sure, what type of care you are looking at by going with that doctor. And that, I have to appreciate.

 

 

TiredX2 is offline  
Old 10-07-2008, 07:12 PM
 
elisheva's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: BC
Posts: 1,432
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I have a friend who wants a natural birth but who was told by her OB, "You can have a doula, but I don't want to be told how to do my job."

Run. Run as far as you can away.

"So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton
 
 
 
   

elisheva is offline  
Old 10-07-2008, 07:19 PM
 
lwuertz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 1,037
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiredX2 View Post
I get sick of doctors trying to "say the right thing." Because if they don't mean it, it's going to come back and bite you on the ass. Doctors who "say" they support bfeeding, but give formula samples and blame every little problem on nursing. Doctors who "say" they support natural birth but set every one of their clients up for an epidural and try to scare the heck out of them.
lwuertz is offline  
Old 10-07-2008, 07:56 PM
 
txgal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 982
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by elisheva View Post
I have a friend who wants a natural birth but who was told by her OB, "You can have a doula, but I don't want to be told how to do my job."

Run. Run as far as you can away.
As a doula, I can assure you that I would never try to tell a doctor how to do his job. I am there strictly to support mom and partner and to make sure they have the information they need to make informed decisions. Then they tell the doctor how to do his job.

And I agree with Tired2x, I would much rather know ahead of time that a doctor didn't want me there. But I do feel sorry for the women that choose his/her care.
txgal is offline  
Old 10-07-2008, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
VeganCupcake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiredX2 View Post
You know what? I think that is great.

I really do. I get sick of doctors trying to "say the right thing." Because if they don't mean it, it's going to come back and bite you on the ass. Doctors who "say" they support bfeeding, but give formula samples and blame every little problem on nursing. Doctors who "say" they support natural birth but set every one of their clients up for an epidural and try to scare the heck out of them.

There are plenty of people out there who don't want a doula and I give that doctor a for being honest about his approach. You can know, for sure, what type of care you are looking at by going with that doctor. And that, I have to appreciate.
I agree to a point--good to know what you're getting into. But like my friend, so many people have no idea what a doula is or does, and then they see this sign and think it must be something bad or something they wouldn't ever want. I guess it's partly their own problem for not finding out more.

But how, in good conscience, can a doctor forbid his patients to have doulas when they've been proven to improve outcomes for women and babies? It's just mind-boggling.

Catherine, mama to Preschooler Girl 9/08, and Toddler Boy 3/11

VeganCupcake is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 01:03 AM
 
allisonrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NoVa
Posts: 1,996
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
I interviewed with a (hosp birth) midwife that seemed disapproving of doulas. She mentioned that they are not medically trained and have no liability in the birth. Her attitude put me off and I chose a different hosp birth midwife practice.

In the end, I ought to have gone with the doula-resistant lady since I delivered on the weekend with a midwife I'd never met before and my HMO would have allowed me to deliver at the nicer hospital with more lactation support. You know what they say about hindsight....

Mama to Blake, 5, and Grant, 3
ribbonpb.gif
allisonrose is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 01:21 AM
 
mom2annika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
With DD1 my OB was definitely leery of the doula. She didn't know what the doula would do, and worried they would clash and the doula try to convince me to say no to something the OB wanted to do. There was no conflict though--at least not with the OB. She was really impressed. The L&D nurses on the other hand...well, I was cussing at them anyway. LOL

I have heard doulas referred to as "ambulance chasers" and "something you don't really need." My insurance company insisted it "wasn't medically necessary" (yet an epidural was, in their opinion, "medically necessary" and therefore covered.) I paid for the doula myself and would absolutely do so again. Unfortunately, now I'm pg again and she's retired. Hubby really hit it off with her though, and she's said she'll give him a quick refresher before this new one arrives.

I agree the OB gets some credit for being upfront, but still...is this OB going to prohibit clients with MILs next?
mom2annika is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 10:20 AM
 
PassionateWriter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by txgal View Post
As a doula, I can assure you that I would never try to tell a doctor how to do his job. I am there strictly to support mom and partner and to make sure they have the information they need to make informed decisions. Then they tell the doctor how to do his job.

And I agree with Tired2x, I would much rather know ahead of time that a doctor didn't want me there. But I do feel sorry for the women that choose his/her care.
yeh, but you may give the client information that conflicts with the OB's and well...thats not good for his business, yk??? He is all powerful, yk?? (yes, im totally tongue in cheek here).

I too would rather the OB be honest. ALOT of them should have such signs probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeganCupcake View Post
I agree to a point--good to know what you're getting into. But like my friend, so many people have no idea what a doula is or does, and then they see this sign and think it must be something bad or something they wouldn't ever want. I guess it's partly their own problem for not finding out more.

But how, in good conscience, can a doctor forbid his patients to have doulas when they've been proven to improve outcomes for women and babies? It's just mind-boggling.
my thought on the client is that this is one of the MAJOR impediments to the maternity crisis care in the US. How much time do ppl think about how to decorate the nursery or what kind of stroller they want? but child birth??? leave that to the "professionals". just one of my pet peeves I guess.

in good conscience? most OB's i have met are concerned about their risk management offices and malpractice. I have met MANY who are not so concerned about the mom and baby outcome (from a psychological POV)....only that they aren't going to get sued.
PassionateWriter is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 10:48 AM
 
leavemealone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,743
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not in you DDC, but the dr I go to actually suggested a doula. Now, that may be b/c he seems to sublease part of his office to a woman who is a doula and does childbirth education, but he really is supportive even when I mentioned that I already had one lined up (who wasn't the woman he subleases part of the office to).

I recently changed my username, but I still say "Hello" to all those who know me in real life! Hi P, S, T and K!
leavemealone is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 11:07 AM
 
BookishVonLiberal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My friend is a doula and she just found out that one of the OBs in her town tells people that they can either have her as their OB or my friend as their doula, but not both. This doctor is not natural-birth friendly and my friend is a birth activist, so the doctor seems to regard her as a threat to her authority.
BookishVonLiberal is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 12:42 PM
 
Smalls181's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Confused and Disapointed
Posts: 2,042
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BookishVonLiberal View Post
My friend is a doula and she just found out that one of the OBs in her town tells people that they can either have her as their OB or my friend as their doula, but not both. This doctor is not natural-birth friendly and my friend is a birth activist, so the doctor seems to regard her as a threat to her authority.
I find Dr's like that both hilarious and pathetic at the same time. But this is something I have to learn more about because I am going to be a Doula soon in a small town where NCB is not the norm.
Smalls181 is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 06:18 PM
 
immamama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 725
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow, that's weird.

But at least his clients know what they are getting up front... and can steer clear of his weirdness.
immamama is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 06:52 PM
 
Charmie981's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 4,368
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeganCupcake View Post
But how, in good conscience, can a doctor forbid his patients to have doulas when they've been proven to improve outcomes for women and babies? It's just mind-boggling.
Yeah, but so are routine episitomies, VBAC bans, required continuous monitoring, a higher c-section rate on Fridays and holidays, and...need I go on? So much of maternity care doesn't make sense in this country. I agree that it's refreshing to hear that there are a few doctors who are out in the open about what they want and don't want from their patients. Ideally, there wouldn't be any doctors like this, but I much prefer the overt ones to the covert ones who try to sucker people in by being nice only to change their tune at 34 weeks when it's too late to change providers!

Quote:
my thought on the client is that this is one of the MAJOR impediments to the maternity crisis care in the US. How much time do ppl think about how to decorate the nursery or what kind of stroller they want? but child birth??? leave that to the "professionals". just one of my pet peeves I guess.


My reaction to a sign like that would be to figure out real fast what a doula is and why I can't have one. After meeting a few in town, I'm sure I'd be ready to fire my anti-doula doc. Very weird how this lady just didn't even seem to care that she was being told who could and couldn't be at her birth from the get-go!

Charlotte, midwife to some awesome women, wife to Jason, and no longer a mama to all boys S reading.gif('01), A nut.gif ('03) S lol.gif ('08) and L love.gif ('10).
Charmie981 is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 08:43 PM
 
annettemarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the Restricted Section
Posts: 34,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Moving to Birth and Beyond, since this isn't really a DDC-specific conversation.

It's awful though. I can't imagine an OB having the right to put a limit on who can support a woman through her birth. How paternalistic.

Flowers, fairies, gardens, and rainbows-- Seasons of Joy: 10 weeks of crafts, handwork, painting, coloring, circle time, fairy tales, and more!
Check out the blog for family fun, homeschooling, books, simple living, and 6 fabulous children, including twin toddlers

annettemarie is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:33 PM
 
Hayes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There's an entire hospital here that bans doulas unless they have been fully certified and prescreened by the nurse manager.
Hayes is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:48 PM
 
mamallama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: zone 6
Posts: 1,731
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

homeschool.gif mom to dd (11) read.gifand dd (9) crochetsmilie.gif and ds (3) bikenew.gif and  dog2.gif(x2)
mamallama is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 11:08 PM
 
TzippityDoulah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: DC area
Posts: 3,611
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
well... nobody has to go to that OB. I would just take my self some where else and let them know why I wouldn't be going with them - hopefully if enough peole complain or make note of it, they'll reevaluate it. but all in all it's his choice to make.

Maybe the OB had a really bad experience with one of "those" doulas. lol. I can't imagine what could have been that awful, but i'd heard some crazy stories... but you know... they could all be rumours. I've never actually met a doula like that - not once! (and I know a lot of them heh)

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

TzippityDoulah is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 11:22 PM
 
grniys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,705
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think it's good. That way, the woman knows the dr's views up front and can decide whether to stay or go to a different dr.

As for the dr not having the right to decide who is there with the woman during childbirth... well, he's not saying she can't have her doula. He's saying she can have her doula but he won't be her dr. Just like some dr's won't take kids who aren't vaxed as patients. I see nothing wrong with a dr deciding that he wouldn't be a good fit for a patient.

SAHM to Ninja Boy (6) surf.gif and Monkey Man (4) carrot.gif.

grniys is offline  
Old 10-08-2008, 11:37 PM
 
mamatoakd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Along with the dr letting potential patients know where he stands, it would be great if the hospitals did the same. When I was pregnant with my first, the OB was fine with me having a doula but the nurses at the hospital were incredibly RUDE! I remember noticing it while I was laboring and not being able to put the energy and thought into doing anything about it. In hindsight (it still bugs me), I wish I'd taken down the name of one particular nurse and written a letter to my OB and the hospital.

C'est la vie...
mamatoakd is offline  
Old 10-09-2008, 12:41 AM
 
Charmie981's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 4,368
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My question is how does he KNOW if it's a doula? I mean, lots of people have female family members and friends at their births to help them cope/celebrate with them...is he going to tell them they can't come? And what if I happen to want one of the doulas in town to be at my birth as a friend (because I do have friends who are doulas who would have come to my birth with just a phone call)? What then? It just seems really preposterous for him to think he can say who comes and who doesn't and to assume that he'll know who is in what role when he walks in the room and is only there for like 20 mintues!

Charlotte, midwife to some awesome women, wife to Jason, and no longer a mama to all boys S reading.gif('01), A nut.gif ('03) S lol.gif ('08) and L love.gif ('10).
Charmie981 is offline  
Old 10-09-2008, 03:05 AM
 
LilacMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Doulas have a negative stereotype among many OB docs/nurses (rightly or wrongly). Honestly, if I had a doula I would introduce her as a "friend" or "cousin" or something. That wouldn't get everyone's defenses up.
LilacMama is offline  
Old 10-09-2008, 03:13 AM
 
lifeguard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Coyote Rock Farm
Posts: 6,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I have to agree with the people who've said this is great. One of my biggest concerns about using an OB is that he's just saying what I want to hear & that we'll be in for a nasty surprise when delivery comes along.

Ideally we could all have the supportive births of our dreams but the fact is that is not the atmosphere for many & I'd rather have the warning up front that it's not going to happen.

Surviving sleep deprivation one day at a time with dd (Oct '11) & ds (Oct '08).

lifeguard is offline  
Old 10-09-2008, 11:40 AM
 
sarahlynne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Jones, michigan
Posts: 315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmie981 View Post
My question is how does he KNOW if it's a doula? I mean, lots of people have female family members and friends at their births to help them cope/celebrate with them...is he going to tell them they can't come?
:

I have had my sisters as nonprofessional doulas, one was particularly an advocate for me during labor and the babe afterward for one birth. If I did have a paid doula I think I might say after it was over that "I'm so glad I had my wonderful DOULA with me!" to the nurse/midwife/doc.

I do agree that it is good for the doc to be up front about his biases. It is sad that that situation exists, but good for him/her to be candid about it. It lets informed consumers avoid him and at least there are no false hopes for the mom. I don't know whats more sad though, that there are docs like this still or that most moms just don't even ask, or seem to care.

  chicken3.gif Christian SAHM to DS 3/04, DS 1/06, and DD 1/09 and expecting a new little one in May 2012 selectivevax.gif  nocirc.gif 

sarahlynne is offline  
Old 10-09-2008, 11:47 AM
 
Romana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeganCupcake View Post
But how, in good conscience, can a doctor forbid his patients to have doulas when they've been proven to improve outcomes for women and babies? It's just mind-boggling.
The same way my friend doing her OB residency can say "I've been at midwife-attended births in the birth center, and I can see how much better they are for moms and babies, but I just don't have the patience for natural birth."

She likes all her patients to have epidurals. That way she doesn't have to listen to them in pain. : And she loves c-sections! She'll tell you all about it if you ask.

Romana is offline  
Old 10-09-2008, 12:00 PM
 
Cherry Alive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
When I first got pregnant this time around, my ex-OB clinic actually sent me a letter talking about what to expect at my visits and basic things like nutrition. But then it had a condescending paragraph explaining why their clients shouldn't take Bradley classes.

While I wasn't sold on doing Bradley at the time, reading that was enough to make me rethink staying with them (I was going to stick around until I finished my first trimester).

I am very happy I switched to my birthing center for my first prenatal.

Enjoying the adventure of NFL with my partner-in-crime , DD 03.09 , , &
Cherry Alive is offline  
Old 10-09-2008, 12:10 PM
 
Cherry Alive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeganCupcake View Post
But how, in good conscience, can a doctor forbid his patients to have doulas when they've been proven to improve outcomes for women and babies? It's just mind-boggling.
BC it's not always about "good conscience." It's about $$$.

Some of them *want* to do unnecessary interventions, bc it's more "convenient" (they can schedule it on their time) and/or brings in the big bucks.

I figured this out when I was being pressured to get a hysteroscopy for two *very* small uterine polyp—even though I had 2 second opinions who told me they were shocked bc they felt it was completely unnecessary. I realized this was how my ex-OB's clinic got extra money to pay for their 10 doctor's lexus' and the fancy interior design jobs done in their office.

Bc of all the myths fed to us by the media, a lot of women (and men) get fooled into believing all doctors are kind and have their patients' best interests at heart. While that is how it's supposed to be, it's not reality... Just like it's not reality that the news/media is always supposed to be unbiased when it comes to releasing stories (especially about politics and celebrities).

After my experience, I won't be going to a GYN/OB again—unless a midwife or family doctor refers me to one for a specific reason. It is a big conflict of interest that the doctor who does the diagnosing also gets $$$ for doing surgeries.

This isn't to say there aren't spectacular OBs who exist. There are. They, however, aren't easy to find, and sometimes can have motives or practices that change as they are human.

Enjoying the adventure of NFL with my partner-in-crime , DD 03.09 , , &
Cherry Alive is offline  
Old 10-09-2008, 01:28 PM
 
MegBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 2,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeganCupcake View Post
But how, in good conscience, can a doctor forbid his patients to have doulas when they've been proven to improve outcomes for women and babies? It's just mind-boggling.
Yup. Mind-boggling. It still boggles my mind how docs can do SO MANY various bad things for L&D patients, even though I've known about it for nearly a year now, since I was shocked to learn that "nothing-by-mouth" & continuous EFM were standards for ALL births at the world-renowned Johns Hopkins Bayview hospital.
It's just the way of modern American modernity care... and it MUST CHANGE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PassionateWriter View Post
How much time do ppl think about how to decorate the nursery or what kind of stroller they want? but child birth??? leave that to the "professionals".

My DH says, "People put more research & thought into buying a car than having a baby!" Your nursery decoration example is equally applicable. So true, and so very very sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romana9+2 View Post
The same way my friend doing her OB residency can say "...
OK, this is gonna sound nasty, but personally.. I could not be friends with someone like that. The way the average American OB treats laboring & birthing Mamas makes me sick. Literally ill & furious. I couldn't bring myself to associate in a friendly way with someone who would have such an outlook:
"I know what is much better for my patients - both Moms & babes- but I just don't care."
WHAT THE?!?!

What ever happened to the hippocratic oath?! "First, do no harm." <sigh>
MegBoz is offline  
 
User Tag List

Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off