Noam Chomsky............. - Mothering Forums

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Old 12-22-2003, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Is my hero !!!!! Behind Granny D, of course!!

Talk abt taking off the rose colored glasses..............


Dictators R Us

Just another look at our cozy record with various dictators around the globe. Most notably of late - Sadaam.

A country called Iraq. Created by the British. Where over 400 of our young adults, many of them not much older than NM's son, have been killed. Not a single child of the Bush family, mind you. Nor of the Cheney, Rumsfield, Wolfowitz or Perle families.

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The doctrine is dishonest and cowardly, but it does have advantages: It protects us from the danger of understanding what is happening before our eyes.
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Who would expect that the United States would ever permit an independent Iraqi government to exist? Especially now that Washington has reserved the right to set up permanent military bases there, in the heart of the world's greatest oil-producing region, and has imposed an economic regime that no sovereign country would accept, putting the country's fate in the hands of Western corporations.
We looked last week for the poll about how long the war would last.....................does anyone still believe we will ever leave Iraq ?????? I don't. As we pull troops out of SA we will keep them in Iraq. Can't be too far away from *our* oil now, can we.


El
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Old 12-22-2003, 06:12 AM
 
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Anything Noam Chomsky could say that I might agree with is so totally overwhelmed by the foulness of his rationalizations for his obvious deep and profound psychosis ...

So thanks but no thanks.















Wow. Feeling feisty tonight, ain't I. :LOL
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Old 12-22-2003, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'll say. :LOL









We are all a tad psychotic at times now, aren't we?




:



Maybe you should start a thread abt your feelings re Chomsky.






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Old 12-22-2003, 02:52 PM
 
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Nah. He's not worth that much effort, and certainly not worth that much thought. Unless you're talking about linguistics, which is the one topic that he has both intellectual skill and actual credentials. Anything else is really ... well, only his psychiatrist knows for sure.




Though did once find a funny link where any sentence can be translated into "Chomsky-speak" ... ie., never say in one sentence what verbal diarrhea can drag out to 42 sentences.

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Old 12-22-2003, 04:28 PM
 
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I like Noam Chomsky. Sure, he can be a little wordy, but I htink that's a good thing. I mean, I find that talking online reduces a lot of people to the bare minimum because of typing. I think he has a lot of interesting things to say. That's my two cents.

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Old 12-22-2003, 08:35 PM
 
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I saw Noam Chomsky speak at my local Uni a couple of times, many years ago. Both talks were insightful and thought-provoking, and I was impressed by his breadth of knowledge, as well as how well he expressed himself. To dismiss him out of hand might reveal one's own prejudices and shortcomings.
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Old 12-22-2003, 11:00 PM
 
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merpk, I have long admired and respected your take on just about any topic on these boards, so I'm very curious as to why you're so dismissive of Chomsky, who I"ve always thought was pretty great. I know that your opinion must be founded on something well-thought out, since I've never seen you give any sort of dismissive or knee-jerk reaction to anything. Care to elaborate?
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Old 12-23-2003, 02:39 AM
 
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zinemama, appreciating the compliment ...

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... by The Smiling Mr. Briss ...
... To dismiss him out of hand might reveal one's own prejudices and shortcomings ...
To accept what he says without critical thought might reveal one's own gullibility and shallowness.



And just off the top of my head, okay, here's one thing that he did that was ridiculously offensive. He wrote the forward to a book of Holocaust revisionism.

His defense of this was that he was championing free speech. Well, there are a heck of a lot of other ways to champion free speech than by promoting bigotry.

But hey, he thought the Khmer Rouge were pretty cool, too, so where's the BFD, right?

Right.
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Old 12-24-2003, 01:32 PM
 
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Hey El's, just noticed that I took the thread away from the ideas that The Most Brilliant Professor was waxing lyrical about in your initial post, and turned this into a thread about The Most Brilliant Professor himself.

Is that a hijack?

Well, then again, the thread is just titled "The Most Brilliant Professor." Well, IYKWIM.





Hmmmmm. Must be them hormone thingies again. Actually edited one of my previous posts this morning just to goose Mr. Briss, and now am adding to this moribund thread just to get a rise out of El's.

Then again, maybe I'm just feeling feisty ...

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Old 12-24-2003, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, Amy, you've contributed a lot to this post ...................


Heeheehee, I mean, we do all know how you feel abt Chomsky now. And why.


Yes. I would call it a hijack. You've said nothing about the contents of the piece................but the title did do it's job - got ppl to read it. (Well, maybe not you.)

But, hey, it's all just words flying around cyberspace. I really don't care. (abt the hijack, that is)


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Old 12-24-2003, 04:29 PM
 
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And just off the top of my head, okay, here's one thing that he did that was ridiculously offensive. He wrote the forward to a book of Holocaust revisionism.
yep, I knew it was this.....
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Old 12-24-2003, 09:13 PM
 
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Ya know, we had a dog named Chomsky for a while...

We also had a dog called Nietzsche.
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:28 PM
 
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Originally posted by merpk
He [Chomsky]wrote the forward to a book of Holocaust revisionism.
with all due respect, that is an unbelievably gross distortion of what actually happened.
the other side of the story is below, anybody with a brower can google "chomsky faurisson" for a deluge of material.

for those without the time to read it all, the last sentence sums it up perfectly: It is a poor service to the memory of the victims of the holocaust to adopt a central doctrine of their murderers.

from the Chomsky article archive at
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/index.cfm

His Right to Say It

Noam Chomsky
The Nation, February 28, 1981

An article in the New York Times concerning my involvement in the "Faurisson affair" was headlined "French Storm in a Demitasse." If the intent was to imply that these events do not even merit being called "a tempest in a teapot," I am inclined to agree. Nevertheless, torrents of ink have been spilled in Europe, and some here. Perhaps, given the obfuscatory nature of the coverage, it would be useful for me to state the basic facts as I understand them and to say a few words about the principles that arise.

[...long snip in deferrence to Fair Use policiy...]

It is a poor service to the memory of the victims of the holocaust to adopt a central doctrine of their murderers.
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Old 12-28-2003, 12:39 AM
 
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That was incredible. If anyone actually read that entire thing, less than a quarter of it had anything at all to do with his essay in Faurisson's book.

And if he didn't want it in the book, and really believed in the point ... after all, he is known for taking stands, no wallflower he, right? ... then why did he just say "oh" and roll over when it was actually published? My skepticism knows no bounds.




And in all of that verbal diarrhea (& thanks, dado, for providing specific evidence of the 42-sentences-vs-1 concept ) he wonders why no one got upset with him when he signed petitions for Eastern Europeans whose writings were suppressed.



East Europeans didn't have any sort of freedoms (at the time of the controversy) that the French enjoyed, did they. Didn't have any sort of freedom of speech in any way, did they. They were actually living under an oppressive regime, weren't they.







If I may quote Deborah Lipstadt (she of the recent victory against David Irving in the British courts): "Free speech does not guarantee them the right to be treated as the "other" side of a legitimate debate ... most important, it does not call for people such as Chomsky to stand by them and thereby commend their views to the public."









Oh, and so good that somewhere in there The Good Professor mentioned his stance on Vietnam.

He didn't mention this, a quote from his book "American Power and the New Mandarins":

"By accepting the presumption of legitimacy of debate on certain issues, one has already lost one's humanity."



Rather accurate description of the Professor himself, doncha think?

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Old 12-28-2003, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hilary Briss
I saw Noam Chomsky speak at my local Uni a couple of times, many years ago. Both talks were insightful and thought-provoking, and I was impressed by his breadth of knowledge, as well as how well he expressed himself. To dismiss him out of hand might reveal one's own prejudices and shortcomings.
thank you HB

I was won over with Keeping the Rabble in Line

Mr. Chomsky is an indespensible philosopher, theoretician, thinker and critic in our times
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Old 12-28-2003, 02:10 AM
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Post removed pending edits----abimommy
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Old 12-28-2003, 11:37 AM
 
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Post removed pending edits---abimommy
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Old 12-28-2003, 12:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by merpk
If I may quote Deborah Lipstadt (she of the recent victory against David Irving in the British courts): "Free speech does not guarantee them the right to be treated as the "other" side of a legitimate debate ... most important, it does not call for people such as Chomsky to stand by them and thereby commend their views to the public."
she is both wrong and putting up a straw man. it isn't about the holocaust revisionists being the "other side" of the debate - there is no other side, the holocaust happened, you i and millions of others are the living legacy of it - it's whether or not free speech is a fundamental right.

Chomsky himself is quite clear he despises the holocaust revisionist line of "thought". but it is a separate issue from whether individuals should be prosecuted/persecuted for writing/speaking about beliefs. it is not an easy distinction to make, i have failed at making it myself at times, i have enormous respect for anyone who can.

as a member of the publci i certainly am not the least bit interested in having deborah lipstadt or any court she may petition as the arbiterer of what i may or may not hear/read.
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Old 12-28-2003, 12:54 PM
 
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dado, she (Lipstadt) said the same thing you did. There is no "other" side to that, there is no "debate." The quotation marks in my post were hers, not mine.

And her point is that Chomsky, by virtue of his reputation (whether deserved or not), gives credibility and visibility to deniers when he is involved in their work to such a degree.

I repeat my point: If he didn't like it, there are ways to stop it. Saying, "Oh, I didn't want him to put my essay in his book, but he did it anyway," is not enough. And it's a cop-out. And you know what? Chomsky knows that, too.

Regarding being prosecuted/persecuted for speaking beliefs, it is in Europe that there are laws against Holocaust denial propoganda. Those are limits on free speech with social policy considerations that go beyond simple "freedom of speech" into the arena of "freedom to live without oppression and genocidal intent."

And she didn't petition any court. David Irving sued her in the British courts. He lost.
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Old 12-28-2003, 01:37 PM
 
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I find Chomsky a pretty complicated guy, and so I wasn't going to post to this thread. I have read some of his work, and though he has a very logical mind, he sometimes accepts things as evidence for his arguments that are factually incorrect. (The example I can remember is his description of the situation of the Jews of Iraq in the 1950s.) It also horrified me that he defended Faurisson.

I don't think I have enough evidence to say that he's psychotic though. I read a very interesting article about him in the March 31, 2003 New Yorker. (It's not on line so I can't link it, I found a left-wing blogger who quoted it here. The quotes in this link don't address the most interesting point of the article for me: Chomsky started out as a very strong Zionist and gradually became an anti-Zionist. He speaks an excellent Hebrew (not surprising for the son of two Hebrew teachers -- I also speak excellent Hebrew, for a similar reason.) He is still on good terms with his parents. He is NOT on good terms with any of his old opinions. The New Yorker article discusses how he has changed his academic opinions, on linguistics--and then claimed NOT to have ever held different opinions! The same is true of his politics, at least on Israel. In a recent and quite witty interview with him in the New York Times Magazine, (which is, oddly, still up on the web! here it is!) he says that he was never in favor of a Jewish state! But this is not true at all!

I think Chomsky does have some valuable things to say, but the essay in the OP was not especially original or well-written.

Divorced mom of one awesome boy born 2-3-2003.
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Old 12-28-2003, 02:20 PM
 
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Originally posted by merpk
And her point is that Chomsky, by virtue of his reputation (whether deserved or not), gives credibility and visibility to deniers when he is involved in their work to such a degree.
what you describe is not the doing of Chomsky, it is the doing of a failed education system that doesn't teach its citizenry enough basic mental skills to differentiate between "support of a position" and "disdain of a position but support of the right to express it".

what Chomsky did was courageous and very Voltaire-ish. i applaud him for it. in the same breath i also despise the ridiculous "arguments" of Faurisson.

but i'd rather have his kind out in the open where we can see them rather having them hide in basement bars complaining about censorship and plotting the next kristallnacht.
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Old 12-29-2003, 12:26 AM
 
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I believe that *any* acceptance of censorship can only lead to more censorship.

That said, there is certainly no personal responsibility to give every whacko a forum to spout their nonsense.

 

 

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