Why would middle to middle-low income people EVER vote Republican? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Why would middle to middle-low income people EVER vote Republican?
bjbjd (try to say that user name ) asked this question on the "Why do I vote conservative" thread.

I know some low income familes at school who are voting repuplican. It DRIVES ME CRAZY!!!!! One lady in particular is a single mother of 4 bi-racial children who teaches at our school. She really struggles with getting her bills paid. SHe is doing a wonderful job raising her family. I asked her what she liked about Bush. ABORTION issue turned out to be her only reason!!!!



Please explain this to me!!!!
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#2 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 12:04 PM
 
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Lack of knowledge, and of course our "liberal" media (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA yeah, right)
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#3 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 12:17 PM
 
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Can only speak for myself.

In my family, we were Democrats until the 1930's. FDR and the alphabet soup of socialist programs tipped the scales. Attempting to pack the Federal Supreme Court in his favor was another. Suspicions that Pearl Harbor was set up was another. The atomic bomb and Truman are another. LBJ and his "Great Society" is another reason my family and friends are not Democrats any longer.

I know that African Americans went mostly for FDR which made most of them turn away from the Republican party. Most of them were previously Republicans since it was the party of Lincoln.

I do know that in general, Southerners were Democrats until 1964 going mostly for Goldwater, probably because of the Civil Rights movement having mostly Democrats in its leadership.

Most of these things are not even mentioned in any history book any longer, so I doubt anyone knows anything about what I am posting about here.

I know these programs were put into place a generation ago, but I feel since they are still in place and are costly and questionably a dubious success at best, they should be scaled down or eliminated. We are still funding them.

I am registered no party now, however since no party represents me.

JMO, nothing more.
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#4 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 12:53 PM
 
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To imply that poor people should not vote for Republican is absurd! And to imply that only Democrats are out to help the poor is absurd. It is a philosophical difference of whether you believe in hand-ups or hand-outs. It is an issue of personal accountablility.

I grew up with a poor single mother who always voted Republican. Moral issues are a valid reason for aligning with a political party. (either party)

My mom also voted for Republicans because she hated the servant/master relationship that Democratic programs create for the poor. Like "you poor people need the Big Government to take care of you, to teach you parenting skills, to make you better citizens, etc." A good book on this subject is Uncle Sam's Plantation.

When you live in the projects you begin to understand that the way to make it out is through hard work and the free market system, not through government programs.

PS - most of the low-income people I know vote Republican! They want lower taxes and more control over their own money (making SS private).

Just my thoughts!
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#5 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Most of these things are not even mentioned in any history book any longer, so I doubt anyone knows anything about what I am posting about here.
Oh you couldn't be more wrong!

My highschooler has been taught everything you have mentioned. How old are your kids?? Are you a teacher?? You do not seem to know a whole lot about what is being taught!! This IS EXACTLY what my daughter has been learning!!!

What does all of the above have to do with the GOP today????

BTW, thanks for trying to answer my question. I may not understand your answer but I appreciate your effort.....

marg
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#6 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 01:08 PM
 
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applejuice,

excellent post! I taught history and I taught those things (of course it was a private school).

I would also add that moral issues (abortion, gay rights, prayer in school) have caused many southerns to switch from the Democratic to Republican party in the past 20 years.
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#7 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 01:33 PM
 
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Moral issues, sure, but isn't it a moral issue when a party does everything it possibly can to boost the wealthy and corporations (who are corporations, NOT people, although i understand that the health of our businesses has an effect on the health/wealth of our citizens) at the expense of the less well-off?


Isn't it a moral issue when our administration creates a maze of lies upon lies upon lies, and even when presented with evidence of those lies, lies about lying about it in the first place?

I know people who vote in direct opposition to what is really going to make their lives better, based on ONE issue like gun control, and they have the facts of that ONE issue wrong, even!

I think that once you make it to the big leagues, "president", you don't really know how to tell the truth anymore, but some administrations are much much worse than others.
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#8 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally posted by Marg of Arabia
Oh you couldn't be more wrong!

My highschooler has been taught everything you have mentioned. How old are your kids?? Are you a teacher?? You do not seem to know a whole lot about what is being taught!! This IS EXACTLY what my daughter has been learning!!!

What does all of the above have to do with the GOP today????

BTW, thanks for trying to answer my question. I may not understand your answer but I appreciate your effort.....

marg
I am a teacher of over thirty years experience in both public and private school in California, Boston and one year in England. I first voted in June 1972 in the CA primary.

I currently teach in a private religious school; I have been there for six years.

I have children; four of them ages 23, 21, 19 and 12. I worked in their classes as they went through school.

I also worked as an aide in my younger siblings' classes when they were in school and I was a college student and as a young married woman.

The textbook that my DD had in Middle School in 1994-1996 did not even mention the atomic bomb. FDR and the New Deal were mentioned only in passing as a footnote. I think these eras are important to understanding how we came to where we are now. I am homeschooling my youngest because I do not want the same mistake to be made with him.

Part of my DS's history curriculum was to dress up and do a duel ala the Crusades; this was his honors history final in High School. I switched him over to a more academic Private School immediately

I also served with the local Unified School Board for five years on the textbook committee; lots of politicking going on here. The priorities were not to present accuracy, but more to present multicultural stories and biographies which may have been folklore rather than important history. I do not mind reading about the background of some obscure poet, but not at the expense of losing time to study the history of the presidencies and administrations. I agree that most history formerly focused on "old white men", but a balance needs to be struck. I thought a book that had a good discussion of the background of the Federal Constitution, the Federalist Papers and its debates would have made a good textbook, but it was not accepted.

The thing to remember about history is that the winners write the recordings. It is called "HIS-story" for a reason.

I think I did answer your question; people do vote the way their parents vote mostly because they probably grow up hearing debates within the family structure. I am sincerely sorry you did not see it that way.
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#9 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 04:36 PM
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ITA with applejuice and TexasSuz.

My family were die hard democrats with my dad being factory working, union man. That said my dad and I had great debates as I got older and he was starting to disagree more and more with the dems. He has been dead over 10 years and he would never agree with the social agenda of the dems. My mother has since started voting rebulican. My family is a group of hard workes who don't want hand outs.

I disagree with the way taxes are used to redistribute income. I don't believe I have a right to anything of anyone elses. I don't think we need anymore gun control laws , we should just enforce the ones already there. I don't agree with affirmative action. How can things be equal if you're giving special treatment to certain segments of society. I don't believe in killing unborn babies.
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#10 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My 15 year old goes to a private Catholic prep school. It is an incredible school! I went there! I guess we are spoiled here in Wisconsin......

I came here at the age of 13. I had been in an inner city school in Atlanta, GA. Didn't learn much there. Depends on where you live........I guess........

Gotta run! I will come back later to discuss more! I have 4 kids waiting for me to drive them to the YMCA!

I'LL BE BACK!
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#11 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 04:43 PM
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I forgot one thing. Most republican canidates are much friendlier to the homeschool issue. I would never vote for any canidate that would threaten this no matter what party he was with.
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#12 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 05:09 PM
 
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RE: education

Here in California, the Democrats have had control of both houses of the State Assembly for over a decade and there has been a Democrat as governor from 1996 to last November. They had their chance, and California is still dead last on any list of academic achievement nationwide. Under Republican Pete Wilson, class size in the public schools was lowered by law to no more than twenty students from K-3 - yet we were still ranked dead last. Class size reduction was rescinded last year under Davis to sidestep the budget deficits. Things will not change under Schwarzenegger just because he is a "Republican".

Another thing that public schools could venture to teach is the fact that there were TWO sides to the Civil War. If you were in Atlanta, GA, then you should know that the South still has a culture that sees the Civil War as the "War of Northern Aggression" and does not venerate Abraham Lincoln as the rest of the nation does; Lincoln's birthday is still not a Federal holiday for this reason. My sister lived in Lugoff, South Carolina and commuted to Augusta, Georgia weekly for her medical specialty training at the Medical College of Georgia. She had a culture shock in dealing with the Southern people; she was accepted for the most part since her DH was born in Shreveport, Louisiana so the professionals she worked and trained with saw him as "one of our boys". She has since returned to Delaware, still South of the Mason- Dixie, line and opened her specialty practice, but she never forgot the cultural lesson she learned there.
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#13 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 06:33 PM
 
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My husband's roots are in the mountains of Viirgina. We spend a lot of time in the county where he was born, where most people are poor or almost poor and overwhelmingly support the Repub. party. I do not think it has so much to do with the actual basic structure or economic philosophies of the parties themselves as much as it has to do with the culture war. For one reason or another, the Democrats have decided to court one side and the Republicans have decided to court the other side. It's more about the fact that the Republican party decided to woo the traditionalists. Cultures like my in-laws' care more about tradition, faith, and family than money. This is why I believe they are likely to support a party that aligns with their moral values even though the party may not benefit them financially. Also, since these people are only one generation removed from being DIRT poor--like, cleaning possum for their dinner and not having shoes-- they put a lot of stock in the value of self-reliance and hard work and believe in the possibility of achieving the American Dream in a capitalist environment. Many of them have gone from poor poor poor to at least having indoor plumbing and nice clothes from K-Mart, and they are content with what they have, even though many of us who take college and vegetarianism and hybrid cars for granted would look at them with contempt
and call them rednecks.
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#14 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 07:06 PM
 
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Originally posted by the sunshine
Moral issues, sure, but isn't it a moral issue when a party does everything it possibly can to boost the wealthy and corporations (who are corporations, NOT people, although i understand that the health of our businesses has an effect on the health/wealth of our citizens) at the expense of the less well-off?
Isn't it a moral issue when our administration creates a maze of lies upon lies upon lies, and even when presented with evidence of those lies, lies about lying about it in the first place?
I know people who vote in direct opposition to what is really going to make their lives better, based on ONE issue like gun control...
This kind of thinking drives me crazy. How could anyone purport that "boosting the wealthy at the expense of the less well-off" is a moral issue when abortion, prayer in schools, etc are very real moral issues that divide the two parties? (Not saying you are equating it, but IMO-and I think for a lot of other conservatives-these kinds of things (the rich get richer) are just life. Period.) Are you saying Dems don't take handouts from lobbyists and try to push their agendas through. Please.

As for lies, show me ONE administration that hasn't told them. Look, I heard the term "slick willie" just about every day when Clinton was in. Do you really mean to say that he didn't lie about anything, even when presented with evidence? My point is NOT TO DEBATE whether he did or not, but to point out to you that-again-most people think this is kind of par for the course. There will be things we are not told, no matter who is in office.

And the ONE issue (whatever it is) might very well be more important to someone than a social program that will make their lives better...depending, of course, whether they believe it WILL make their lives better; all administrations are better at talking than actually doing, IMO.

There are a number of issues that I am conservative about, and some that I am pretty liberal about. Neither party is perfect, but I have to vote with my conscience. Does it bother me that some social programs go by the wayside when Republicans are in office? HECK YEAH. Does it bother me equally when defense spending goes down the tubes when Democrats are in office? HECK YEAH.

See what I mean? I have to balance what I believe are the most important issues to me and for my family, no matter what my income might be.

My ils are Democrats, died in the wool. Know what? They are against gun control. Never give to charity. Hate social programs like welfare and affirmative action. Know why they're Dems? Abortion. I'm wwwwwwwaaaaaaaayyyy more liberal than they are in terms of giving, ecology, and dare I say it, AP issues (I bring that up because I've read in other liberal threads that some of you are bewildered how "crunchy" some conservatives are). They were hippies so they are for legalization of pot, but they think police officers should be able to kill people that evade them, with no questions or trial.

Do you see my point??? It has very little to do with income IMO.
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#15 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 07:47 PM
 
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Originally posted by Marg of Arabia
bjbjd (try to say that user name )
I would suggest you don't.
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#16 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 07:53 PM
 
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Originally posted by RacheePoo


Do you see my point??? It has very little to do with income IMO.
I wonder how much it has to do with 'education'.
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#17 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 07:57 PM
 
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OT, but
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Part of my DS's history curriculum was to dress up and do a duel ala the Crusades; this was his honors history final in High School. I switched him over to a more academic Private School immediately
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#18 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 08:08 PM
 
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Snowy Owl, it is, in fact, significantly correlated with "education," which I would (as someone with unschooling tendencies) point out is different from intelligence, wisdom, or competence.
BTW your daughter is so adorable!
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#19 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 09:08 PM
 
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Originally posted by Super Pickle
Snowy Owl, it is, in fact, significantly correlated with "education," which I would (as someone with unschooling tendencies) point out is different from intelligence, wisdom, or competence.
BTW your daughter is so adorable!
Yeah, I would tend to agree (and also agree about dd being adorable, thanks!)
about the shortcomings of formal education, especially the mandatory education children and teens are subjected to. I myself never liked school and never did well in school, even though there was nothing wrong with my ability or intelligence.
But at the same time... the way so many people live I just don't understand. They are never exposed to anything *more* and they never seek it out. The only music they know is what they hear on top 40 radio. They only things they read are 'People' magazine or trashy fiction or what have you, and the only news they get is the standard television fare. And we won't even think about the kind of food they eat... and this is the mainstream of culture....
If education can pull someone out of this non-existence then bring it on.
Maybe the kind of education that matters here is cultural education.
And why is it that universtities and culturally rich urban areas tend to be more liberal? Why is Canada so much more liberal the the USA? Americans are 'richer' generally speaking....
hmmmmm....
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#20 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 09:21 PM
 
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I know what you mean Snowy Owl. I don't really know how to interpret the correlation. But I know what you mean.
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#21 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 10:06 PM
 
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It disturbs me when people vote against their own best interests, which is what happens when low income people vote Republican. However, I take great solace in knowing that these same people will suffer greatly as a result of the policies of the people they voted for.
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#22 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 10:22 PM
 
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Originally posted by Super Pickle
they put a lot of stock in the value of self-reliance and hard work and believe in the possibility of achieving the American Dream in a capitalist environment.
except what they are describing as "capitalism" is actually socialism. capitalism unmitigated by socialism results in the living hell described by dickens: it is a system that guarantees the sole proprietor will be unable to make a living and that the vast majority of people will never achieve the "american dream". unfettered capitalism does not reward self-reliance, it does everything possible to ELIMINATE self-reliance.

america is a socialist country. the problem isn't the socialism, it's the prevailing fantasy that socialism is something happening "over there". the result is the bizarre mix referred to as neo-conservatism that acts like a policy schizophrenic.

the purest unfettered capitalism in the modern world exists in those countries where the sweat shops are churning out product for walmart. does anybody seriously want that kind of society here?

hilary: well put. and without hyperbole, even.
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#23 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 10:29 PM
 
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hilary: well put. and without hyperbole, even.
Like I would do that.
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the purest unfettered capitalism in the modern world exists in those countries where the sweat shops are churning out product for walmart. does anybody seriously want that kind of society here?
I have said for some time that China is a much more capitalist country than the U.S. I always get a chuckle when people blather on about "communist" China. If I may quote the movie "Clue": Communism was a red herring.
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#24 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 10:54 PM
 
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the purest unfettered capitalism in the modern world exists in those countries where the sweat shops are churning out product for walmart. does anybody seriously want that kind of society here?
Well, I don't, but I think some folks do. IYet when it comes to economics, they seem to firmly believe that if the very wealthy are allowed unfettered access to do whatever they like with 'their' money & 'their' businesses, then somehow that will translate into a well paying job that might mean they will have a bigger house one day.

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#25 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 11:11 PM
 
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It disturbs me when people vote against their own best interests, which is what happens when low income people vote Republican. However, I take great solace in knowing that these same people will suffer greatly as a result of the policies of the people they voted for.
I personally find Republican policies to be more in the best interest of low income people than Democratic hand-out programs. Kerry wants to cut corporate taxes 5% and raise my personal taxes to fund all of his promises! I don't see how that is in anyone's best interest.

I also totally disagree with the implication here that low-income people vote Republican because they are uneducated or less intelligent. Why do people always think that poorer people are stupid or that educated people are smart? I have met some brilliant people with only a high school education and some stupid people with a PhD or MD!

Face it people vote what they feel is right for them and for this country based on their value system. I am sorry that most liberals can't understand that some people have different values than their own and that those values are just as valid as their own!
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#26 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 11:15 PM
 
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also, on the wal-mart side issue that aussiemum brought up...

I find more things at Wal-mart that are made in America, by American workers than I do at Nordstroms, Dillards, JC Penney, or even Target. All of the Sear's clothing is made in other countries, even Land's End. Start reading labels and tags. I do - everywhere we go!
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#27 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 11:32 PM
 
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Dear Dado,
Thanks for the clarification. I know very little about economics so I appreciate what your post had to offer. I hope my glaring misuse of that term will not cause anyone to miss the point of my post, which was simply to help Marg understand why certain people might maintain certain mentalities.

HB, our relatives in the mountains have gone through some really tough times this past year...if you think it would briing you joy, I could pm you the accounts of their misfortunes.
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#28 of 114 Old 03-28-2004, 11:34 PM
 
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Originally posted by TexasSuz
Hilary, so I guess you know what is in everyone's "best interest?" I personally find Republican policies to be more in the best interest of low income people than Democratic hand-out programs.
The difference is, Republican (right-wing) policies will make the 'moral' decision that low income people are wrong to accept money from the government and that choice should be either unavailable or difficult to obtain instead of allowing people to make that decision for themselves. Remember, programs like welfare take only a small fraction of tax dollars, so your 'hard-earned money going to free-loaders' is hardly a valid rationale. It's funny how often those who say government should stay out of people's lives want government policy to control people's moral decisions. Abortion, marriage, welfare...the list goes on....
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#29 of 114 Old 03-29-2004, 12:05 AM
 
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Originally posted by TexasSuz
I am sorry that most liberals can't understand that some people have different values than their own...
in that sentence you're doing what you accused hilary of doing.

the point wasn't about people's values, it was about the way they expressed belief in those values via the ballot box. hilary is absolutely right, china is a truer capitalist society than america, and has been for some time. shanghai is a jaw-dropping paeon in concrete and steel and glass to unfettered capitalism. the question is out there: how many GOP supporters here want the US to look more like china?
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#30 of 114 Old 03-29-2004, 12:13 AM
 
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Why do people always think that poorer people are stupid or that educated people are smart?
TexasSuz, I don't think you'll EVER find me making a comment like that.

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I have met some brilliant people with only a high school education and some stupid people with a PhD or MD!
ITA! I've met some bloody brilliant people who were illiterate for that matter, so why draw the line at high school?

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Start reading labels and tags. I do - everywhere we go!
You might find we have more in common than you think! Been doing it for years. Which is why is makes me cranky that dear mum buys clothes in America that were made in Cambodia (they like the Gap sales too) to send to us in Australia!!! I just like to pick on Wal-Mart cuz they put up building with a monster size footprint in communities that don't want them, which can have the effect of causing smaller, less financially efficient FAMILY businesses to go broke. (but that's another thread.....)

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Face it people vote what they feel is right for them and for this country based on their value system.
Face it Suz, a lot of people in the US are so disenfranchised that they don't even bother to vote because they feel it will make no difference to their lives. The US voting rates are nothing to be proud of.

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I am sorry that most liberals can't understand that some people have different values than their own and that those values are just as valid as their own! Most of the liberals I encounter are the most judgmental people on earth - it is their way or no way at all!
You can insert conservative instead of liberal here & the effect is the same. Why aren't 'liberal' values just as important as conservative ones?

AND, I don't appreciate being labelled judgemental!!

Quote:
It's funny how often those who say government should stay out of people's lives want government policy to control people's moral decisions. Abortion, marriage, welfare...the list goes on....
Snowy Owl, well put. Well put. I suppose conservatives who want to control these sorts of social issues aren't being judgemental about abortion, marriage, welfare, etc..... Just stating the 'true' values of America, I suppose?

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