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#61 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 02:27 PM
 
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My objection is mainly *misrepresentation*. If you're going to go through the trouble of providing someone with a story about where your product comes from, and how it's made, BE TRUTHFUL. The BJM-Karen has told people repeatedly that her soakers are hand-knit, not machine knit, and are made by her 2 sisters who are living in China. Not just sisters in general, but HER TWO sisters.
So how can two individuals crank out...what was it? 70 soakers? in one month, along with custom AND wholesale orders? They can't. Therefore, her product is misrepresented, and we are not getting the whole story.

And yes, I do think that domestic soaker-making WAHM's should be charging much more for their work. But how can they when they have to compete against such low prices? Even diaper-makers aren't charging fair wage, because they would not be able to sell their wares if they did.
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#62 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 02:34 PM
 
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can I get an amen? (diaper making, soaker making wahms charging too little for what they do)

I dont usually browse ebay (or other sites ofr that matter) for other soakers so I had no idea about this seller or that she even existed
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#63 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 02:38 PM
 
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Just a note, that everyone may want to be careful about assuming anything about this person or her business. No one knows what is really going on, no one knows she is lying, no one knows she isnt. I'm not sure its fair to come on a public board and say that she has to be lying or that she has to be using child labor or making possibly harmful accusations without any proof. If any one of you soaker WAHMS who have posted to this thread were getting bashed on MDC saying you were using a machine to knit or that you were doing something unethical (without proof or giving you the chance to respond) you would be hurt and angry...

Maybe someone should just email her and ask her how they manage to knit so many? And when those soakers were counted (per month) did they all sell? is it possible that a lot of them dont sell and they are relisted? or maybe they have a lot of stock leftover because their soakers didnt always get so much attention and always sell and they are listing more of stuff they had previously knitted since there is demand? Who knows.. none of us have any real idea of what is going on, so maybe we should hold off on making judgements or assumptions. I dont know this woman, dont have any reason to defend her... but i personally am not comfortable with assumptions being spread that could possibly ruin her business without factual information.

ETA: thats not to say people cant not buy them for whatever reasons are important to them... every customer has a right to buy or not buy whatever they want and for whatever reason they want. I just wanted to play devils advocate and put out other possibilities to be fair.
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#64 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 02:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mama2kyla
Just a note, that everyone may want to be careful about assuming anything about this person or her business. No one knows what is really going on, no one knows she is lying, no one knows she isnt. I'm not sure its fair to come on a public board and say that she has to be lying or that she has to be using child labor or making possibly harmful accusations without any proof. If any one of you soaker WAHMS who have posted to this thread were getting bashed on MDC saying you were using a machine to knit or that you were doing something unethical (without proof or giving you the chance to respond) you would be hurt and angry...

Maybe someone should just email her and ask her how they manage to knit so many? And when those soakers were counted (per month) did they all sell? is it possible that a lot of them dont sell and they are relisted? or maybe they have a lot of stock leftover because their soakers didnt always get so much attention and always sell and they are listing more of stuff they had previously knitted since there is demand? Who knows.. none of us have any real idea of what is going on, so maybe we should hold off on making judgements or assumptions. I dont know this woman, dont have any reason to defend her... but i personally am not comfortable with assumptions being spread that could possibly ruin her business without factual information.

ETA: thats not to say people cant not buy them for whatever reasons are important to them... every customer has a right to buy or not buy whatever they want and for whatever reason they want. I just wanted to play devils advocate and put out other possibilities to be fair.


ITA, very well said Tiffany!
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#65 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 02:48 PM
 
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She told me it was women & 2 of them were her sisters. So it sounds like there are more than 2.
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#66 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 02:50 PM
 
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I have read she gets pretty defensive when asked. I suspect that she has been questioned about this more than once!
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#67 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 02:57 PM
 
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Aside from all the other stuff, I just wanted to add that I think they definitely DO relist items. There was a while ago that it didn't look like anything was selling. There are a few other ebay based companies with lots of stuff up for auction but a lot of it is relisted and relisted til it goes.
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#68 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 02:57 PM
 
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Okay, Jen - that makes more sense.
If it were more women than just the two, the production volume is definitely plausible.
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#69 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 02:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauira
I have read she gets pretty defensive when asked. I suspect that she has been questioned about this more than once!
I would get tired of all the questions too. Not all moms are nice when they ask, they can be confrontive. That would sure put me on the defensive.
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#70 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:01 PM
 
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Yes, I was just going to say the same thing.... it is more than 2 women, 2 of them are either her sisters or her SIL's. They have a family shop where they make suits and they have a place where they knit there as well.

She and I talked long and in depth about things, and I can say that I am fairly comfortable with saying she treats them well.

The area of China in which they live has a very very low cost of living.

I'm not saying you should all run out and buy it, but I don't *think* it is a sweatshop. I am pretty certain she's being honest on that.

And honestly, jobs are hard to get in China, and she may be providing them the difference between them eating and not eating. Especially for someone with a lower education who is older.... if they need to contribute to the family income there might not be any other alternative than sweatshop work... so Karen might be providing something very valuable to these women... an alternative to making Nikes for 10c/hour.

Kimberly
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#71 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Diaper_Addict_Jen
I would get tired of all the questions too. Not all moms are nice when they ask, they can be confrontive. That would sure put me on the defensive.
I totally agree!
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#72 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:10 PM
 
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Just want to toss out there that I do not really think they are making that many. When a friend contacted her about a custom order, she was told 3-5 weeks. I am fairly certain she would put a definate custom order before an Ebay stocking. Just my .02

And Tiffany Very well said.
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#73 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:17 PM
 
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I don't think many of you realize how long it takes to knit soakers & shorts & pants by hand
Some people also knit faster then others. Teresa at LTK once said in sewing that it just takes her a couple hours to whip up a soaker, that really isnt that much time to be unable to list several especially with more then 1 doing it. And she definetly does relist, its free to do with ebay if the terms apply.

If you dont feel comfortable with it, then skip over it, but shes explained herself enough times. Shes responded before that the money she pays those that make it is more then what those in China usually make, and they are getting quite a profit out of it. I dont know the China economy at all or the rate table of money, its just what shes responded with in the past.
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#74 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:22 PM
 
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I had to wait 25 days for longies.
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#75 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:24 PM
 
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ITA with Tiffany. Without any evidence, it is unfair to judge her.

I went to Vietnam in 1998. The cost of living there is unbelievably low. My friend's family was considered upper-middle class and their family of 6 survived quite comfortably on less than the equivalent of $10 per day that the one primary wage earner earner. His mother did not have to work at all because they were considered "well off" and they were also able to buy a second piece of property to build what we would call a summer home. BTW, this was in Ho Chi Minh City (former Saigon), the most prosperous and expensive area to live in Vietnam.

Many people that I met in Vietnam would have been grateful for this kind of work. My friend's SIL was a seamstress and would sell full outfits for the equivalent of around $2. Something super fancy would be around $5 tops.

I am not saying that Vietnam = China, but my point is to give some frame of reference. Just because they are inexpensive does not mean she is ripping off her family and friends.
Buying in the US vs. buying overseas is NOT my point.
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#76 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:30 PM
 
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wow! I've been too busy to get on here lately and just saw this... Very very interesting comments.

I was e-mailed by the owner and asked if I want to sell their soakers at my store. I didn't feel comfortable doing it so I turned her down. I can't imagine how much the knitters make after the cost of the soakers and selling them to someone like me at 1/2 what she sells them for at e-bay? If I were to sell her stuff I would get a whole bunch at 1/2 retail... Just doesn't sounds like a small business to me. Which is fine as long as all workers are paid a fair amount. Just not a small business. And definitely not considered WAHM. Hope it's not a sweat shop type thing... Yikes! But it is true that we just do not know. So I am not saying anything bad about them. Just am not interested to sell their stuff...

Not that I know but a lot of people might think machine made is still hand made as long as they don't have huge industrial sized machines in a factory. Like the diapers I make... I call them hand made but I use a sewing machine to sew them... YKWIM? I think it is obvious from the way they look that they are not made with knitting needles by hand.

:

Azadeh

P.S. I can't stand it when people copy without permission. No no no no..
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#77 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:32 PM
 
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I do not know her working conditions, but I do know that it is NOT ok to copy Karen's (of KSS) cactus design.
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#78 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Teri
About the copying.... to copy another wahm's art, IMO, is very wrong. It is actually hurtful to the wahm.... they feel invaded. It is stealing, and they feel like they have been stollen from. If a customer emailed me and asked me to do a custom order by copying so and so's diapers, I would say, "NO way!" and be done with it. That sort of stuff just bothers me. Wahms put way too much into what they do to have somebody just rip it off.

Teri


It takes a bit more imagination and work to draft your own designs and patterns, and come up with an original product that's your own, than to copy someone else's. Of course, the temptation to make a bit of extra money for your family comes in, when you are a wahm making very little overall in your cottage industry, and someone says, 'I really need such-and-such just like...'.

But the bottom line is, it's an art, it's craftmanship, and there are certain ethical standards (unwritten, but still in force for those of like-minded hearts and minds) that reputable wahms respect for themselves and, in turn, for others in their craft.

I certainly wouldn't speak against anyone in particular, not knowing what an individual situation might be, but I do believe that, in making your creations your own, you earn the respect of others in your customer and peer community.
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#79 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by quest4quiet
I'm always on the lookout for cheap wool, but I've never been able to bring myself to buy from her b/c something just seems...off, for lack of a better word.
ITA!! I've never bought from her b/c I'm convinced these come from a sweat shop.

, , , mama to Ross , Reagan (8/29/05), Joshua (from Haiti...here NOW due to the earthquake!), and Elijah , born safely 9-8-09.
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#80 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:40 PM
 
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So the cactus was completely copied, looked just like a replica?

If it was just a darn cactus on the butt, she doesnt own the right to be the only one to put cactus on a diaper tush, its not trademarked, copyright, etc. If it were copied completely, then I would think of it as theft, but if it was just a cactus on the tush, from another mama who lives in AZ whats the matter with that? She didnt claim or try to say it was a KSS soaker. But I dont see the orginal anymore to see if it was exact.
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#81 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Morwenna
While I totally agree that one can be 'inspired' by another's work...inspired is different than blatant copying
Here's the BJM

and here's the KSS one

.
It is easy to see that yes, the cactus from the BJM soaker is a pretty close replica of the one from KSS. I know for a fact that Karen worked hard on the KSS cactus, because we e-mailed back and forth quite a bit with her giving me updated sketches for the cactus until it looked exactly as I wanted. She is one talented mama!

However, I also have to say for the record that I do *not* think that I am the only one entitled to a cactus soaker! I am slightly upset that Karen's (KSS Karen) design was stolen though.
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#82 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:47 PM
 
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It's exact. Very exact.

Anyway, the point of the plagarism is, did the OP *ask* for a cactus just lik the one on the KSS (in which case, the fault would lie partly with her for requesting a copy of a copyrighted design (because all hand-drawn original artwork *is* copyrighted, whether it says so or not), or did she just say "I want a cactus" and BJM-Karen found the KSS picture and said "that would do nicely" & sent it off to be copied without the OP's knowledge?
Either way, it's not okay.
I have a number of WAHM friends who have had their artwork blatantly copied by other WAHM's who did not ask permission, and I can tell you without a doubt that it makes them sad, it makes them MAD, and it makes them want to stop offering custom designs, because of the lack of respect shown by the people who copy.
If you like a design, draw one yourself. Similar is no big deal - that kind of thing is rather flattering. But don't copy line-for-line without permission.
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#83 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by spicensnail007
So the cactus was completely copied, looked just like a replica?

If it was just a darn cactus on the butt, she doesnt own the right to be the only one to put cactus on a diaper tush, its not trademarked, copyright, etc. If it were copied completely, then I would think of it as theft, but if it was just a cactus on the tush, from another mama who lives in AZ whats the matter with that? She didnt claim or try to say it was a KSS soaker. But I dont see the orginal anymore to see if it was exact.
For the record it was nearly exact (as exact as two hand made things can be) the shape was exactly the same, the position of the flowers were exactly the same, it was copied. And it IS copyrighted, it was a hand drawing/design done by Karen of KSS she didn't copy, she came up with the design on her own and made it an orginal, art work as well as the written word is automatically copyrighted to whomever owns the work (in this case Karen of KSS). You don't have to register it for it to be a copyright (not like a patent) if it was just a matter of it being a cactus on the butt no one would have said anything, but there are MANY MANY different ways to make a cactus, she could have made one of 1000's of designs of them with 4 branches, or 2 branches, or a round cactus, not copied the exact design (three with the flowers on top of the branches). That is copyright infringment and it is wrong plain and simple.

A lot of WAHM's get custom requests from other WAHM stuff, a customer will show the WAHM a picture of another soaker and say "I want this" well when this happens the WAHM should say "I can do something similar (same type of design, like a cat or a cactus) but done with my own design, I can not copy a design like that" However I think a lot of WAHM's don't realize that things like this are copyrighted and do it to make customers happy. I know there was a cat on a pair of pants I think that was copied (I had seen the same exact cat on a Freshie's design, and I know Kendell drew it by hand). And then this cactus, I think WAHM's are just getting a little frustrated at being used for their designs and not credited, I can tell ya if I were Karen (KSS) I would be mega upset, this isn't the first time she has been copied. I know it is a form of flattery since she does such a beautiful job, but it is still wrong. I am sure if it were just a cactus that wasn't EXACTLY the same then there wouldn't have been an issue, no one can say they own a theme, I mean if someone wants a cat, do a cat, but don't copy someone elses cat, do you own, or cactus for that matter. See the difference? She doesn't own the cactus idea, that wouldn't be possible, but that exact hand done design she DOES have copyrights to. Clear as mud?
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#84 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:59 PM
 
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And it IS copyrighted
I was saying the idea of a cactus on a bum is not copyrighted, I did not say her work was not. I agree that if you design something, write it, draw it, its yours, copyright to you. I did not remeber what the original looked like and said so in my reply.
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#85 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 03:59 PM
 
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yoink
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#86 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 04:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehndi mama
It's exact. Very exact.

Anyway, the point of the plagarism is, did the OP *ask* for a cactus just lik the one on the KSS (in which case, the fault would lie partly with her for requesting a copy of a copyrighted design (because all hand-drawn original artwork *is* copyrighted, whether it says so or not), or did she just say "I want a cactus" and BJM-Karen found the KSS picture and said "that would do nicely" & sent it off to be copied without the OP's knowledge?
Either way, it's not okay.
I could be wrong but I don't think BJM does custom soakers. So, I don't think the fault could lie w/the OP. She had no clue that it was a copied design until it rang a bell with someone! And you're right, either way it's WRONG!!

, , , mama to Ross , Reagan (8/29/05), Joshua (from Haiti...here NOW due to the earthquake!), and Elijah , born safely 9-8-09.
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#87 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 04:02 PM
 
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yoink
I am sorry but that made me LOL!!!! Kathleen.....
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#88 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 04:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by spicensnail007
I was saying the idea of a cactus on a bum is not copyrighted, I did not say her work was not. I agree that if you design something, write it, draw it, its yours, copyright to you. I did not remeber what the original looked like and said so in my reply.
Ahh sorry! Some people don't know that a copyright is automatic. But your totally right the idea of a cactus isn't the issue, it is the exact design. : sorry!
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#89 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 04:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HoosierDiaperinMama
I could be wrong but I don't think BJM does custom soakers. So, I don't think the fault could lie w/the OP. She had no clue that it was a copied design until it rang a bell with someone! And you're right, either way it's WRONG!!

she does do customs... nak
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#90 of 184 Old 07-01-2004, 04:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HoosierDiaperinMama
I could be wrong but I don't think BJM does custom soakers. So, I don't think the fault could lie w/the OP. She had no clue that it was a copied design until it rang a bell with someone! And you're right, either way it's WRONG!!
BJM does do customs, it says to e-mail her for a custom in the listing, and the OP said it was a custom before the OP edited it.
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