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#61 of 108 Old 07-28-2005, 10:37 PM
 
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Stereotypes?

How about

- If you can make a quilt, then you can sew a flat?

- I assumed they couldn't afford (organic) certification...

- Maybe they use sposies because it's one part of their religion/culture that they are allowed to use that is modern so it's fun to them?

- But probably only wool covers, right? Synthetic covers are such modern inventions....well, then again so are sposies and they use those!

- Just seems like they'd be the last people in the world to buy sposies.

- but it doesn't surprise me that Mennonites use sposies. They seem to be more 'in' the modern world.




The lives of Amish and Mennonite communities are considerable deeper and broader than anything we might have seen in the movie "Witness", on a tourist brochure or in the restaurant promising you apple dumplings "just like Oma used to make".
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#62 of 108 Old 07-28-2005, 10:38 PM
 
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So I guess its all relative to how culturally sensitive you are?

I went through and substituted Amish with "black people" and found some of the statements to be very stereotypical and broad generalizations.

I guess people just can't see how some comments reek of ignorance no matter how innocent it might be.
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#63 of 108 Old 07-28-2005, 10:38 PM
 
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Who would've guessed??? Weird.
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#64 of 108 Old 07-28-2005, 10:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KristiMetz
I dunno... if I go back and insert MDC'ers instead of Amish, I could totally see this thread taking place on another board. MDC has its own culture that lead to a certain lifestyle.
yea, but it would be stereotyped and incorrect to assume that all MDC'ers CD, or eat all organic, or are vegan, or all shun vaxes, or, or, or ....
Just the same way it's stereotyped and wrong to assume all Amish quilt and cloth diaper.

nothing more to say I guess :
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#65 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 12:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
And yet many of them do.
Yes, that's what this thread is bringing to light.

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Originally Posted by annettemarie
This thread seems to be perpetuating an awful lot of stereotypes and assumptions. Insert another religious or ethnic group in some of these sentences instead of "Amish" and I think people would see how stereotypical it really is.
You think that the idea of the Amish living a more natural and old-fashioned lifestyle is just a stereotype? If it bothers you that people think that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned, then it seems to me that you should like this thread. This thread is not perpetuating the belief that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned. It is doing the opposite. It is dispelling the myth that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned.

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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I wanted to add- it seems to me it would make more sense to say, wow, my preconceptions about the Amish just weren't true, than, dang, the Amish aren't living up to my expectations. They are simple, darn it, and how hard would it be for them to use cloth?
It's hard to be neutral about the realization rather than negative, because when we thought that the Amish used cloth and farmed naturally, we thought of it as a good thing and admired them for it, but since MDC is generally pro-cloth and pro-natural, it's predictable that we would be disappointed to discover that the idea isn't true. I don't think we've been saying that the reason they should use cloth is because it's easy. I think we've been saying that we assumed that their reason for using cloth was that they are so natural and old-fashioned about so many other things (there's that mean old stereotype again). The only reason we started talking about ease vs. difficulty of using cloth is because some people suggested that they might not use cloth because it's difficult, but that didn't make sense to many of us because that doesn't stop them from doing so many other things that are natural and old fashioned that aren't any easier.
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Originally Posted by pilesoflaundry
Gosh they are talked about in this thread like they are some sort of exotic species not just a set of people with a typically more simple way of life.
I really don't see where you're getting that.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Yeah, but how would that make you feel?
I wouldn't be offended at all if there were a discussion on another board about how odd it is that so many pro-natural MDCers use sposies. I think it would be a perfectly reasonable discussion.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I do feel the sentiment is here that the Amish should be held to some sort of imaginary standard that has been created based on preconceptions of how "Amish people" are supposed to be.
I don't think we are holding them to a standard that we created. I think we were under the impression that they were holding themselves to a standard of their own, and we are discovering that the standard isn't as strict as we thought or that they don't all hold themselves as strictly to it as we thought they did.
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Originally Posted by chalupamom

- I assumed they couldn't afford (organic) certification...
That's simply the only reason I can think of for anyone who farms organically not to get certified. I did think that it was part of their culture that they farm organically.

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Originally Posted by chalupamom
- But probably only wool covers, right? Synthetic covers are such modern inventions....well, then again so are sposies and they use those!
Synthetic covers ARE modern inventions, and there are many modern inventions that they resist. I don't think it's very far-fetched to have the idea that they would use wool covers when it's part of their culture to cling to natural, old-fashioned ways.

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Originally Posted by chalupamom
- Just seems like they'd be the last people in the world to buy sposies.
I still stand by that statement. It surprises me, from everything I've heard about their culture, that they would use sposies.
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Originally Posted by splendid
I went through and substituted Amish with "black people" and found some of the statements to be very stereotypical and broad generalizations.
Naturally the comments we've been making wouldn't apply to black people.
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I guess people just can't see how some comments reek of ignorance no matter how innocent it might be.
I don't think anyone is disclaiming ignorance. I think the whole point of this thread is that we are admitting that we were completely ignorant about this aspect of Amish culture.
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Originally Posted by Calidris
yea, but it would be stereotyped and incorrect to assume that all MDC'ers CD, or eat all organic, or are vegan, or all shun vaxes, or, or, or ....
It would be incorrect that we all do all of those things, but I wouldn't call it a stereotype. We do have a culture that is based on doing things naturally, just as the Amish do. I wouldn't say that either group has been stereotyped as being natural. I would say that both groups have a well-earned reputation for being natural.

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#66 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 09:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sustainer
You think that the idea of the Amish living a more natural and old-fashioned lifestyle is just a stereotype? If it bothers you that people think that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned, then it seems to me that you should like this thread. This thread is not perpetuating the belief that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned. It is doing the opposite. It is dispelling the myth that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned.
I suppose we are seeing too different things on this thread then. Where I do see the myth being "busted" so to speak, I've also seen people speaking with regret and almost anger that the Amish aren't living up to their expectations.


Quote:
It's hard to be neutral about the realization rather than negative, because when we thought that the Amish used cloth and farmed naturally, we thought of it as a good thing and admired them for it, but since MDC is generally pro-cloth and pro-natural, it's predictable that we would be disappointed to discover that the idea isn't true.
Again, I hear what you are saying, but I am seeing it differently. What I am seeing in this thread is "What, they can make a quilt but they can't make a flat?!?!" and "They don't use zippers, but tabs are OK" as if the Amish are engaging in some sort of hypocrisy. It's not their job not to disapoint us. It's not our job to set a standard for them based on our own faulty stereotypes, or our limited view of their religion and culture. Really, it's like going to Holland and being pissed off because everyone isn't wearing wooden shoes.

Quote:
I wouldn't be offended at all if there were a discussion on another board about how odd it is that so many pro-natural MDCers use sposies. I think it would be a perfectly reasonable discussion.
"MDC-er" is not a religion (well, for most of us anyway :LOL or an ethnicity.
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I don't think we are holding them to a standard that we created. I think we were under the impression that they were holding themselves to a standard of their own, and we are discovering that the standard isn't as strict as we thought or that they don't all hold themselves as strictly to it as we thought they did.
Fine, but I don't see why that's their problem.
You're own statement here
Quote:
How hard would it be for someone who can sew all her own dresses to sew a prefold? And if they can wash clothes, why couldn't they wash diapers?
seems to be placing an expectation on them based on what you know about the Amish from- what? the movie Witness?

Quote:
That's simply the only reason I can think of for anyone who farms organically not to get certified. I did think that it was part of their culture that they farm organically.
Well, now you know. I'm sure some do, and some don't. Again, just like the rest of the world.


Quote:
Synthetic covers ARE modern inventions, and there are many modern inventions that they resist. I don't think it's very far-fetched to have the idea that they would use wool covers when it's part of their culture to cling to natural, old-fashioned ways.
But it's not necessarily. It's part of your perception of their culture that they cling to "natural, old-fashioned" ways. FYI- the Amish do not shun modern conveniences out of a desire to be quaint, modern, or old-fashioned. They do it because they interpret Scripture to mean that they should not be "worldly" and that too much convenience leads to too much time away from family and community. They're allowed to use phones, they just can't own one on their property, generally speaKing. There are always exceptions. They are allowed to go to the hospital. They are allowed to ride in cars, trains, and buses.


Quote:
I still stand by that statement. It surprises me, from everything I've heard about their culture, that they would use sposies.
I think you need to learn more then.


Quote:
I don't think anyone is disclaiming ignorance. I think the whole point of this thread is that we are admitting that we were completely ignorant about this aspect of Amish culture.
Really? Because I was getting a definite vibe that those darn Amish were supposed to be cloth diapering, darn it.
Quote:
It would be incorrect that we all do all of those things, but I wouldn't call it a stereotype. We do have a culture that is based on doing things naturally, just as the Amish do. I wouldn't say that either group has been stereotyped as being natural. I would say that both groups have a well-earned reputation for being natural.
OK, really, now I am curious. What is your background with the Amish? I'll tell you mine. I grew up in Lancaster County. My Uncle adopted and apprenticed two Amish boys, and when he got married, they "did" his wedding for him. Guess what- there weren't seven sweets and seven sours on the table, either. I've been very interested in the Amish, and have done a fair bit of research on them. Where we live now, we frequenr several Amish-run stores (both of which have a huge walk in freezer and -gasp- electric lights, as well as sell disposible diapers and condoms) and have become friends with the owners. My children frequently ask them questions about their dress and their customs, and they have been extremely loving and open about answering them. I am the first to admit I don't know all there is about the Amish. It varies from district to district. Each "order" makes their own rules

I don't think anyone's horrible for having stereotypes about the Amish. I do think there comes a time when you say- wow. I guess I was wrong- rather than digging in your toes and hanging on with your teeth, insisiting that they are or should be all the things you think they are or should be, just because of your own assumptions.

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#67 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 10:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jennisee
I know that this is a gross overgeneralization, but their way of life is less about avoiding modern technologies than it is about not relying on modern man. They avoid electricity being brought into their houses b/c of the symbolism of being connected to the outside world, but they run some appliances (like refrigerators) on gas-powered generators.
Jennisee, I want to thank you for this, as it is an attempt at some real education and I believe that this misunderstanding is what was bothering me most about this thread.

I don't think it is a gross overgeneralization at all, I think it is an important and very true poiint to make: the Amish are not avoiding "Modern conviences" simply for the sake of avoiding them. And to assume this is to simplify and romanticize an entire culture.

I guess what should be realized here (and just accepted as there is no reason to be disappointed in the Amish because if it) is that Amish are not an entire "NFL" community at all. That isn't what their culture is about. There are probably some families that make some NFL choices, but others do not. Some cook from scratch, others buy Hamburger Helper and love it. Some Amish women are great quilters and others choose to focus on other pursuits. Some Amish men are teriffic farmers (who may have zero interest in being organic) and others choose to pursue carpentry or run small businesses, etc.

If anyone is interested in broadening their Amish understanding, you could start by doing some reading. I highly recommend a book called "The Riddle of Amish Culture" by Donald B. Kraybill. Its a pretty fast read and really interesting. One thing that I walked away with, from this book in particular, was an understanding that there is nothing simple about the Amish culture and the author, who refuses to do any simplifying on the reader's behalf, makes it clear that no one who is not a part of the culture will ever completely understand it.
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#68 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 10:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I don't think anyone's horrible for having stereotypes about the Amish. I do think there comes a time when you say- wow. I guess I was wrong- rather than digging in your toes and hanging on with your teeth, insisiting that they are or should be all the things you think they are or should be, just because of your own assumptions.
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#69 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 10:58 AM
 
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OT-

Just because something is applied with a sprayer (hand, horsedrawn, or tractor applied) does not make it a toxic pesticide. Many organic farmers/gardeners have pest management techniques were things are sprayed.
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#70 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 12:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sustainer
You think that the idea of the Amish living a more natural and old-fashioned lifestyle is just a stereotype? If it bothers you that people think that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned, then it seems to me that you should like this thread. This thread is not perpetuating the belief that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned. It is doing the opposite. It is dispelling the myth that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned.
I do not think that the Amish people set out with the intention to be "crunchy" or "natural". I think being more natural and old-fashioned is just a side-effect of thier belief system and lifestyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer
It's hard to be neutral about the realization rather than negative, because when we thought that the Amish used cloth and farmed naturally, we thought of it as a good thing and admired them for it, but since MDC is generally pro-cloth and pro-natural, it's predictable that we would be disappointed to discover that the idea isn't true. I don't think we've been saying that the reason they should use cloth is because it's easy. I think we've been saying that we assumed that their reason for using cloth was that they are so natural and old-fashioned about so many other things (there's that mean old stereotype again). The only reason we started talking about ease vs. difficulty of using cloth is because some people suggested that they might not use cloth because it's difficult, but that didn't make sense to many of us because that doesn't stop them from doing so many other things that are natural and old fashioned that aren't any easier.
It sounds as if you (general 'you') were holding them to a standard they never claimed. They never asked for your admiration. They don't do what they do to try and be better than the rest of us, or to impress us. They do it for their own reasons (mostly religious), and it has nothing to do with our impressions of THEM.

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Originally Posted by Sustainer
That's simply the only reason I can think of for anyone who farms organically not to get certified. I did think that it was part of their culture that they farm organically.
Maybe the reason is that they don't put much credibility or trust in "government labels" and that would be something that would make them accountable to the very thing they are trying to NOT be a part of. Just because someone lives a simple life, it doesn't mean they are poor. Maybe they want to be able to do what they want as far as their farming, and not have government officials holding them to a standard..not because they don't want to work that hard or meet the standard, but they don't want to be accountable to a government outside of themselves. Or maybe, they just don't care about being "labeled" organic. Maybe they figure their word that the products are what they are is enough, kwim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer
Synthetic covers ARE modern inventions, and there are many modern inventions that they resist. I don't think it's very far-fetched to have the idea that they would use wool covers when it's part of their culture to cling to natural, old-fashioned ways.
They avoid things for many reasons that may or may not make sense to us that aren't Amish. Again, I don't think being "natural or old-fashioned" is one of the more common reasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer
I still stand by that statement. It surprises me, from everything I've heard about their culture, that they would use sposies.
Maybe your perception of their culture is inaccurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer
We do have a culture that is based on doing things naturally, just as the Amish do. I wouldn't say that either group has been stereotyped as being natural. I would say that both groups have a well-earned reputation for being natural.
Just because they have that reputation, does not mean that it is their intention.

Not trying to necessarily single you out, Sustainer, I just found more quotable material in your post...I'm speaking to the general "you", not you specifically.

The Amish are primarily a religion-based culture. They make decisions based on their religious beliefs and community tradition. I'm sure there are some Amish that are concerned with being "natural", but not all are, and for us to hold them to some standard they don't claim and then be disappointed when we find they are not living up to it, is rather....judgmental.

Now, that said, I'm sad they use 'sposies, too. Because I know cloth is so much better in so many ways for ANY child.
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#71 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 05:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I've also seen people speaking with regret and almost anger that the Amish aren't living up to their expectations.
There is definitely regret, and I don't see what's wrong with feeling regret about it. I haven't seen any anger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie
What I am seeing in this thread is "What, they can make a quilt but they can't make a flat?!?!" and "They don't use zippers, but tabs are OK" as if the Amish are engaging in some sort of hypocrisy. It's not their job not to disapoint us. It's not our job to set a standard for them based on our own faulty stereotypes, or our limited view of their religion and culture. Really, it's like going to Holland and being pissed off because everyone isn't wearing wooden shoes.
We're not accusing them of hypocricy. It's just that someone suggested that they might think that making diapers is hard, and that seems strange since they are known for making so many things by hand, including difficult things like quilts. I've also heard that they don't use fasteners as modern as zippers, so it seems strange and inconsistent that they would use adhesive tabs. Not hypocritical, just strange. No, it is definitely not their job to not disappoint us. No one is suggesting that it is! Again, I don't think we're the ones who set their standard for them. We thought that there was a standard that they set for themselves, and we were mistaken about how strict that standard is. Yes, we have a limited understanding of their culture. That's the point. Again, nobody's pissed off. Just disillusioned.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
"MDC-er" is not a religion (well, for most of us anyway :LOL or an ethnicity.
No, it's a group of people who share a philosophy/culture, just like the Amish.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Fine, but I don't see why that's their problem.
It's not their problem. No one is saying it's their problem.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
seems to be placing an expectation on them based on what you know about the Amish from- what? the movie Witness?
based on everything I have ever heard about the Amish (until now)
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Well, now you know.
Yup, now I know.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I'm sure some do, and some don't.
Exactly.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Again, just like the rest of the world.
I always expect individuals to do things differently, but I thought that certain things were part of their shared culture.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
But it's not necessarily. It's part of your perception of their culture that they cling to "natural, old-fashioned" ways.
You still think that there's nothing but "perception" in that idea? With no basis in reality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie
FYI- the Amish do not shun modern conveniences out of a desire to be quaint, modern, or old-fashioned. They do it because they interpret Scripture to mean that they should not be "worldly" and that too much convenience leads to too much time away from family and community.
I wasn't commenting on their motivation. Just on the results of the motivation, whatever that might be. Sounds like either of those motivations would have about the same results though.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
They are allowed to go to the hospital.
I can understand making hospitals an exception. It's still hard for me to understand why diapers would be an exception, though.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I think you need to learn more then.
I agree.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Really? Because I was getting a definite vibe that those darn Amish were supposed to be cloth diapering, darn it.
We simply thought that they used cloth diapers. Turns out not all of them do. We're disappointed. That's all.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
My Uncle adopted and apprenticed two Amish boys, and when he got married, they "did" his wedding for him. Guess what- there weren't seven sweets and seven sours on the table, either.
Never heard of that.
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I've been very interested in the Amish, and have done a fair bit of research on them. Where we live now, we frequenr several Amish-run stores (both of which have a huge walk in freezer and -gasp- electric lights, as well as sell disposible diapers and condoms) and have become friends with the owners. My children frequently ask them questions about their dress and their customs, and they have been extremely loving and open about answering them.
Obviously you have more experience with the Amish than I do. But you admitted above that they believe in limiting conveniences, though they make exceptions for things like hospitals. Using disposable diapers still seems inconsistent with that to me.

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#72 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 05:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JoAida
I do not think that the Amish people set out with the intention to be "crunchy" or "natural". I think being more natural and old-fashioned is just a side-effect of thier belief system and lifestyle.
Fine. Either way. (See my post about motivations.)
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Originally Posted by JoAida
It sounds as if you (general 'you') were holding them to a standard they never claimed.
Apparently.
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Originally Posted by JoAida
They never asked for your admiration.
OK. No one is saying they did so I'm not sure what your point is.
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Originally Posted by JoAida
They don't do what they do to try and be better than the rest of us, or to impress us.
Never said they did.
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Originally Posted by JoAida
They do it for their own reasons (mostly religious), and it has nothing to do with our impressions of THEM.
I'm aware of that. In fact, I've always been aware of that. Furthermore, no one has said otherwise.
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Originally Posted by JoAida
Maybe the reason is that they don't put much credibility or trust in "government labels" and that would be something that would make them accountable to the very thing they are trying to NOT be a part of.
That's definitely another possibility
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Originally Posted by JoAida
Just because someone lives a simple life, it doesn't mean they are poor.
I was absolutely NOT saying that I ever thought that they were all poor. My ONLY point was that, whenever I've been aware of a farmer who I think is farming organically, and his products are not labeled Organic, I have assumed that he couldn't afford certification. It's a problem for many small family farms, not just Amish ones.
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Originally Posted by JoAida
Maybe they want to be able to do what they want as far as their farming, and not have government officials holding them to a standard.
Another good point.
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Originally Posted by JoAida
not because they don't want to work that hard or meet the standard, but they don't want to be accountable to a government outside of themselves.
No one suggested that they don't want to work hard.
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Originally Posted by JoAida
Maybe they figure their word that the products are what they are is enough, kwim?
That's what I USED to assume, but according to some of the posts on this thread, some of them DO use chemical pesticides.
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Originally Posted by JoAida
They avoid things for many reasons that may or may not make sense to us that aren't Amish. Again, I don't think being "natural or old-fashioned" is one of the more common reasons.
Again, I wasn't saying that it was their reason. Just that it seemed to be the result of whatever their philosophy is.
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Originally Posted by JoAida
Maybe your perception of their culture is inaccurate.
Clearly.
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Originally Posted by JoAida
for us to hold them to some standard they don't claim and then be disappointed when we find they are not living up to it, is rather....judgmental.
I don't think we've been judgmental. I disagree with the interpretation that you describe.

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#73 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 06:00 PM
 
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By the way, at least one person has said that one of their actual motivations is not to be dependant on a culture outside of their own culture, and one or two people then said that they agreed with that. I'm not sure how this furthers your argument, though. Isn't the use of disposable diapers a dependence on those who manufacture them?

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#74 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 06:07 PM
 
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Anyway, I don't think that this thread has been about stereotypes. I think it's more analogous to someone who hasn't had much exposure to Jewish people finding out that there's such a thing as Jewish people who don't keep Kosher. I don't think that being unaware of the fact that there are Jewish people who don't keep Kosher would make one a bigot.

So this thread is like someone saying, "hey, I saw a Jewish person eating a ham sandwich. I thought they weren't allowed to eat pork?"

Then a few people came into the thread and basically said "Why shouldn't they eat pork?? They're just like everyone else. Maybe they like pork!!"



[In order to keep with the analogy, you have to imagine that this happened on a "Friends of Pigs" message board. That accounts for the reactions being negative rather than neutral.]

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#75 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 10:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sustainer
Anyway, I don't think that this thread has been about stereotypes. I think it's more analogous to someone who hasn't had much exposure to Jewish people finding out that there's such a thing as Jewish people who don't keep Kosher. I don't think that being unaware of the fact that there are Jewish people who don't keep Kosher would make one a bigot.

So this thread is like someone saying, "hey, I saw a Jewish person eating a ham sandwich. I thought they weren't allowed to eat pork?"

Then a few people came into the thread and basically said "Why shouldn't they eat pork?? They're just like everyone else. Maybe they like pork!!"



[In order to keep with the analogy, you have to imagine that this happened on a "Friends of Pigs" message board. That accounts for the reactions being negative rather than neutral.]
Holy moly this is a terrible analogy. No, for this to be even remotely similar it wouldn't be "I thought they weren't allowed to eat pork". To be what happened here it would be "But they said they don't eat pork! It's in the Bible or something!" "I saw on Oprah that they don't eat pork!" "But maybe ham is o.k. or maybe it was turkey ham in which case it's not ham but turkey - but then is it o.k. to pretend to eat pork even when it isn't pork?" "Yeah, but they could easily get soy pork - I mean, it's so easy to get a soy product, right? I don't understand why they don't when they could just go to the store where it's on display."

And that would be closer to what's happened here, and just as objectionable. It's applying external values and analysis and where it becomes really just none of our nevermind.
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#76 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 10:47 PM
 
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Alice, I think your metaphor would be more accurate if it was like this:

"I met a Jewish person and they said they didn't keep pet pigs! That was strange to me, seeing how loving pigs so much they won't eat them is a part of their culture and all."

"Well, that's weird! What, they can keep pet dogs and cats, and even chickens, but they don't keep pet pigs? It's not like pigs would be any more trouble."

Se what I mean? The problem is that the surprise is based in a misunderstanding of the culture, and the culture's reasons for doing or not doing something.
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#77 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 10:49 PM
 
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Wow. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

And you don't think it's even any of our business to discuss it?

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#78 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 10:49 PM
 
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Exactly Kristin.

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#79 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 11:03 PM
 
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Cross posted with you, girlndocs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by girlndocs
"I met a Jewish person and they said they didn't keep pet pigs! That was strange to me, seeing how loving pigs so much they won't eat them is a part of their culture and all."
No, that would not be analogous. We hadn't heard that they LIKED PIGS. We had heard that they DIDN'T EAT PORK.

We hadn't heard that the Amish LIKED CLOTH DIAPERS. We had heard that the Amish DIDN'T USE DISPOSABLES.

Quote:
Originally Posted by girlndocs
The problem is that the surprise is based in a misunderstanding of the culture, and the culture's reasons for doing or not doing something.
It didn't have anything to do with their reason. We weren't trying to dissect their philosophy. We had been informed that they didn't use disposables. We were misinformed.

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#80 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 11:03 PM
 
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And you don't think it's even any of our business to discuss it?
It wasn't discussion, it was speculation, supposition, theory, guesswork, hearsay, opinion, what have you. Very few persons here stood up to offer anything approaching an knowledgeable thought on the subject. Rather, we got a lot of "I thought," "I heard," followed by "They use," "They don't use," "They do this because" and so on, as if old order communities acted as a monolith in personifying some stock characters from central casting.
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#81 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 11:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chalupamom
it was speculation, supposition, theory, guesswork, hearsay, opinion, what have you.
Actually those all qualify as discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalupamom
Very few persons here stood up to offer anything approaching an knowledgeable thought on the subject.
No, most of us are not very knowledgable about the Amish.
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Originally Posted by chalupamom
we got a lot of "I thought," "I heard,"
That's all we really can say when we're not very knowlegable about the Amish.

Are all subjects forbidden except those we are very knowledgable about? If so, people would learn less about those subjects that they need more knowledge about.

Information about the Amish isn't exactly prevalent in society. I don't see how average people on a diaper message board should be expected to have an understanding of them. Someone even said that there's no way to ever completely understand their culture unless you are a part of it.

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#82 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 11:22 PM
 
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My OP was that you might be jumping to conclusions. My parents live in an are highly populated by Amish people, and most all of their Amish friends and neighbors use cloth. They also do not use pesticides. But as others said, it differs from group to group.

But I see that some others have come in and explained why this thread was odd. Thanks, mamas.

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#83 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 11:38 PM
 
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Ok I didn't read the whole thread but to the OP - I'm from Ohio near Amish country as well and have Mennonite friends and Amish neighbors down the road from my parents. My mom has Amish friends. It totally depends on which Order of Amish they are from. They each have their own rules and they don't make all those decisions for themselves entirely. I'm not saying anyone would stop them from cloth diapering but if their Order doesn't require it some will try to push the limits as far as they're allowed. Some may have the gas powered washing machines but I'm sure some orders don't allow that. I don't know if I'd have the level of commitment do handwash or crank machine wash all my diapers. My parents have a few of the old crank machines and they are a bear to operate.

It does bother me as well to see Amish babies in sposies because it does seem like such a contradiction to what they believe. Honestly it seems hypocritical. I spent most of my life living in Amish country and I just don't get it on this one. I understand it with Mennonites, but not Amish. It just doesn't seem to fit. I think if it was brought to the attention of the leaders they would change their minds and make rules, but I'm not sure I want women to cloth diaper because they're 'ordered' to KWIM?
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#84 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 11:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sophmama

It does bother me as well to see Amish babies in sposies because it does seem like such a contradiction to what they believe. Honestly it seems hypocritical. I spent most of my life living in Amish country and I just don't get it on this one. I understand it with Mennonites, but not Amish. It just doesn't seem to fit. I think if it was brought to the attention of the leaders they would change their minds and make rules, but I'm not sure I want women to cloth diaper because they're 'ordered' to KWIM?
Why is it hypocritical? Are you honestly suggesting that you want to go tattle to the elders and bishops in an Amish community to try to "make" them cloth diaper, just so they better fit in with your misconceptions of how they ought to be?

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#85 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 11:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sophmama
I'm from Ohio near Amish country as well and have Mennonite friends and Amish neighbors down the road from my parents. My mom has Amish friends. It totally depends on which Order of Amish they are from. They each have their own rules and they don't make all those decisions for themselves entirely. I'm not saying anyone would stop them from cloth diapering but if their Order doesn't require it some will try to push the limits as far as they're allowed.
Thank you for sharing your experience!


Sophmama's post is the last one I'm reading and then I'm unsubscribing from this thread, just in case anyone cares.

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#86 of 108 Old 07-29-2005, 11:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amym72
There are a lot of Amish families where we live. They lead the simple natural life, make their own clothes, build their own homes, don't use birth control, breastfeed, no electricity, drive horse drawn carriages, make their own bakes goods, grow their gardens and raise their livestock. We see them in Walmart usually on Saturdays buying the things that they don't grow:flour,sugar,coffee, toilet paper AND sposies and wipes.
Incidentally, when you unsubscribe from a thread it takes you back to the first post, and I have to say that the sposies still sound really out of place to me when they're listed among these other aspects of their lifestyle.

OK, bye bye for real now.

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#87 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 12:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sustainer
Incidentally, when you unsubscribe from a thread it takes you back to the first post, and I have to say that the sposies still sound really out of place to me when they're listed among these other aspects of their lifestyle.
Except the whole first post in full of stereotypes and misconceptions.

Quote:
There are a lot of Amish families where we live. They lead the simple natural life, make their own clothes, build their own homes, don't use birth control, breastfeed, no electricity, drive horse drawn carriages, make their own bakes goods, grow their gardens and raise their livestock. We see them in Walmart usually on Saturdays buying the things that they don't grow:flour,sugar,coffee, toilet paper AND sposies and wipes.
"They" don't all lead simple natural lives. They often make their own clothes, but not all of them. Some of them build their own homes, some live in inherited homes, and some live in trailers or manufactured housing. There were a lot of Amish and Mennonite women in my Natural Family Planning class. Some breastfeed, and some don't. None of them drive "horse-drawn carriages"; they are called buggies, and each order has different standards. Some bake, and some buy their baked goods. Some grow gardens or raise livestock; many others are carpenters, buggy repairers, seamstresses for hire, blacksmiths, woodworkers, etc, etc, etc.

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#88 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 12:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sophmama
It does bother me as well to see Amish babies in sposies because it does seem like such a contradiction to what they believe. Honestly it seems hypocritical. I spent most of my life living in Amish country and I just don't get it on this one. I understand it with Mennonites, but not Amish. It just doesn't seem to fit. I think if it was brought to the attention of the leaders they would change their minds and make rules, but I'm not sure I want women to cloth diaper because they're 'ordered' to KWIM?
I don't women to do anything because they're "ordered to". And I really don't think that, being an outsider, approaching the community leadership and pointing out how hypocritical and how much it "doesn't fit" that each and every family in their communities don't use cloth diapers is going to get you very far. Then again, judging by the news today, people love it when external forces barge their way into their societies with a promise to fix everything they're doing wrong, so why not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer
I have to say that the sposies still sound really out of place to me when they're listed among these other aspects of their lifestyle.
Use of the word "lifestyle" here seems quite superficial to me and not at all indicative of an entire social structure and Anabaptist belief system

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Originally Posted by Sustainer
OK, bye bye for good now.
This link seems like an interesting place to begin learning about Amish and other old order, Anabaptist communities.
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#89 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 12:20 AM
 
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I dont see why so many of these threads have to turn so hostile....some people regardless of race, culture, religion, political standing, etc cloth diaper and some dont....it's a personal choice, (i believe). I guess it seems odd that all amish dont cloth diaper but I dont know EVERYTHING about the amish to know there reasons for cd'ing or not.....so bottom line....whether you cloth diaper or not is not a reason to be judged by others......no more than someone who wastes water, electricity, gas or other precious natural resources.....(and we all do waste resources)
ps....any average amish is probably saving 10x more natural resources than any one of us sitting here on our copper, mercury and lead filled computers debating the merits of amish disposable diapering!

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#90 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 12:22 AM
 
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"It's really odd that they don't keep pigs as pets because they're supposed to love pigs!"
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