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#91 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 12:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mykdsmomy
I dont see why so many of these threads have to turn so hostile....some people regardless of race, culture, religion, political standing, etc cloth diaper and some dont....it's a personal choice, (i believe).


Especially considering this thread is a year old and nobody seemed too bothered by it when it was current.

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Originally Posted by girlndocs
"It's really odd that they don't keep pigs as pets because they're supposed to love pigs!"
Huh?

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#92 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 12:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mykdsmomy
I dont see why so many of these threads have to turn so hostile....some people regardless of race, culture, religion, political standing, etc cloth diaper and some dont....it's a personal choice, (i believe).
I agree that it's a personal choice, and I don't feel I was necessarily being hostile. I tend to take exception to stereotyping and token multiculturalism whenever I see it. I see it more as a discussion, but I guess some people see discussion as hostility. It's tough to be challenged, I guess.

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#93 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 12:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by HoosierDiaperinMama


Especially considering this thread is a year old and nobody seemed too bothered by it when it was current.
I didn't realize there was some sort of expiration date on threads. No one bumped it just to take exception to it- I noticed it under "new threads" while I was scanning diapering. Does it being old, or the fact that no one took exception the first time around, devalue anyone's observations?

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#94 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 12:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I didn't realize there was some sort of expiration date on threads. No one bumped it just to take exception to it- I noticed it under "new threads" while I was scanning diapering. Does it being old, or the fact that no one took exception the first time around, devalue anyone's observations?
Absolutely not! I was just commenting...just like everyone else.

ETA: And it struck me as odd b/c the encounter I had w/the Amish woman in the bathroom wanting to know about cd's happened on our vacation last summer.

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#95 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 10:23 AM
 
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There are two sets of people in this discussion....

One set set says (basically), "I don't know much/anything about the Amish or their beliefs, but even so, this seems odd to me..."

the other set is saying, "I do know something about the Amish and their beliefs and this makes perfect sense because...."

What I cannot understand is why the first set is so desperate to cling to their original opinion and defend the misconceptions it is based upon!

It has been said in this thread several times already, but I am willing to try again: Here is a quote gleaned from the site that is linked above regarding Amish beliefs: "The Amish are admonished to live a life that is separate from the world." That's all. It has nothing to do with living a "simple" or "natural" life. Those things, when they occur, are nothing more than a byproduct of the goal to live seperately, NOT the goal itself.

We have learned that each Order makes its own decisions as to what "Living seperate" means for the members of that order. Sometimes those decisions are made based on symbolic gestures (such as allowing generators but not power lines) and sometimes they are made based on what kind of influence on the order may result (such as allowing electric, generator-run washing machines, but forbidding a television set).

The Amish culture has been becoming more and more commercial in terms of the products that are permitted. Why is it more "Shocking" and "Disappointing" to see an Amish woman with 'sposies than it is to see her with a cart full of all kinds of other Wal-mart crap or even to see her in Wal-mart in the first place? Is it just because diapers are important to you and other things are not? Should I have been shocked and dismayed to see an Amish woman spending hundreds of dollars for top of the line flatware when I worked at the local Oneida store? Shouldn't they, since all Amish are skilled woodworkers, be carving their own? Oneida is far from natural! NO, because I'm not the Bishop and I understand that he sets the standards, not me. (Not too mention the fact that assuming they are good at woodworking is a complete stereotype.)

As AnnetteMarie stated so eloquently earlier, there is nothing wrong with having misconceptions about something, we all have them. But at some point, you've got to be willing to be educated. No one is going to give a high-five that "WE WON!" or anything. There is nothing to be gained, aside from continued ignorance, from standing your ground that it is weird fro the Amish to use whatever diapers they choose.
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#96 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 11:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by aisling
...There is nothing to be gained, aside from continued ignorance, from standing your ground that it is weird fro the Amish to use whatever diapers they choose.
I STILL think it's weird. But then again I think it's weird that pretty much EVERYONE uses sposies considering how much they suck. I understand where they have a definite advantage (going out, vacations, people who don't have a washer) but c'mon! They are leaky and smelly and expensive! How on earth did they get 98% market coverage!?
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#97 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 11:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by boingo82
I STILL think it's weird. But then again I think it's weird that pretty much EVERYONE uses sposies considering how much they suck. I understand where they have a definite advantage (going out, vacations, people who don't have a washer) but c'mon! They are leaky and smelly and expensive! How on earth did they get 98% market coverage!?
:LOL But see now here, you aren't thinking its weird because of misinformation about the Amish, you think its weird because of your personal experience with sposies vs. cloth. So that's alright!
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#98 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 01:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by boingo82
I STILL think it's weird. But then again I think it's weird that pretty much EVERYONE uses sposies considering how much they suck. I understand where they have a definite advantage (going out, vacations, people who don't have a washer) but c'mon! They are leaky and smelly and expensive! How on earth did they get 98% market coverage!?
Hooray! Common ground!

I agree.

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#99 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 01:06 PM
 
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Meg, everytime you post, I love you more!

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#100 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 01:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Meg, everytime you post, I love you more!
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#101 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 03:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Why is it hypocritical? Are you honestly suggesting that you want to go tattle to the elders and bishops in an Amish community to try to "make" them cloth diaper, just so they better fit in with your misconceptions of how they ought to be?
I'm definately saying that it would be wrong to do that. I said I was not comfortable with the idea of doing that. There is only one main route of change for the Amish - Elder decisions. I'm saying that the only solution for Amish change is not a viable one (morally I don't believe forcing women through patriarchal systems is right), other than one on one education of Amish women because they don't come read our stuff online or read our books, etc.

I feel it's kind of hypocritical or maybe just seemingly contradictory to use a less inflammatory word, because they are a religious group that espouses to general common ideals. I think for most - natural living is a bi-product of their religious beliefs. It's not that they believe you should live natural but deciding to not live with modern conveniences does lead to mostly natural living in most categories of life. Most of the Amish I have lived near live rather extremely natural lives. Much more than most of us.

I would probably also have a similar reaction to hearing that someone from any other group with a strong belief that things should be done a 'certain' way, did the opposite of that general belief. Like if I heard that heavily involved volunteers for environmental organizations used disposables I'd probably react the same way. It seems contradictory.
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#102 of 108 Old 07-30-2005, 06:54 PM
 
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OK, let me explain the pig thing again:

Sustainer's analogy about Jews eating pork a few pages ago is not an apt one, because Jews have a specific religious commandment forbidding them to eat pork.

Amish/Mennonites do not have specific religious commandments forbidding them to use sposies, or, indeed, other "modern conveniences".

Amish and Mennonites often do live simple, natural, old-fashioned lives, but that is not because their religion calls for them to be simple, natural and old-fashioned. It is because their religion calls for them (if I'm correct here) to closely evaluate each thing in their lives and how it affects their community, and how much it brings their community into the "worldly" world. Therefore they live without some of the "modern conveniences" we live with. But it's not because their religion forbids modern conveniences.

So assuming Amish live without cars, say, because they're supposed to be natural and old-fashioned, and saying "I'm surprised Amish use sposies because they're not supposed to use modern conveniences"

is like

assuming Jews don't eat pork because they're supposed to revere and love all pigs, and saying "I'm surprised Jews don't keep pet pigs because they're supposed to love pigs so much."

In both cases there's an incorrect conclusion drawn from inaccurate assumptions about a religion.
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#103 of 108 Old 07-31-2005, 12:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Trishas Tribe

Please don't judge their whole community by that one families purchase. Even in their own community there is alot of diversity. I can't blame them for choosing sposies when they are out of the house. I can't think a horse and buggy makes for an easy place to change a diaper :LOL
I agree with this sentiment, but I'd go a step further and say we shouldn't be judging anyone for their use of cloth or disposable diapers.
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#104 of 108 Old 07-31-2005, 10:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sophmama
I think for most - natural living is a bi-product of their religious beliefs. It's not that they believe you should live natural but deciding to not live with modern conveniences does lead to mostly natural living in most categories of life.
Please go back and read some of the other posts (mine, Annettmarie's, Jennisee's) and try to understand that your statement is off and so the rest of your assumptions are off. What I have bolded is NOT the goal of an Amish family. It is as much a byproduct of the admonishment to live seperately from the world as is natural living.

Doing without modern conveniences is NOT the goal itself. If that were the case, there would be no exceptions made ever, because there would be no need for it. Being as Old-Fasioned as possible is NOT a tenant of their religion, nor is NFL.

If has not been deemed hypocritical or contradictory to use disposable diapers, by the Amish Bishop and/or Elders and/or anyone else in a position to make the decision, then it is not contradictory, no matter what an outside "english" person thinks.

Can you see how understanding a little of what the goal of being "Plain" is about makes a difference?
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#105 of 108 Old 07-31-2005, 01:31 PM
 
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Hmmm, this is turning into an intresting discussion!
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#106 of 108 Old 07-31-2005, 05:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aisling
Please go back and read some of the other posts (mine, Annettmarie's, Jennisee's) and try to understand that your statement is off and so the rest of your assumptions are off. What I have bolded is NOT the goal of an Amish family. It is as much a byproduct of the admonishment to live seperately from the world as is natural living.

Doing without modern conveniences is NOT the goal itself. If that were the case, there would be no exceptions made ever, because there would be no need for it. Being as Old-Fasioned as possible is NOT a tenant of their religion, nor is NFL.

If has not been deemed hypocritical or contradictory to use disposable diapers, by the Amish Bishop and/or Elders and/or anyone else in a position to make the decision, then it is not contradictory, no matter what an outside "english" person thinks.

Can you see how understanding a little of what the goal of being "Plain" is about makes a difference?

I did read the many of other posts. I do see what you are saying. I would not consider myself to be ignorant of Amish customs in general since I spent the majority of my life in Amish country and have personal acquaintences and some friends within the Amish and Mennonite communities. I have read books on the community and read their newspaper frequently and shop at their stores & restaurants many, many times and lived on the same road. I've been to their churches and weddings and homes (mostly former Amish/Mennonite). I've had Mennonite/former Amish friends since childhood. My parents maintain friendships within the Amish community. That said, I am not the end-all-be all expert on Amish life.

I am aware that the main goal is being plain. What strikes me as odd about the disposables is that in the pursuit of being Plain they have chosen a life mostly free from many modern conveniences. A mostly natural life and many old-fashioned practices is the by-product of how they have have practically applied their belief in the plain life. I shouldn't have used the word hypocritical because that is rather inflammatory and judgemental. Sorry about that. I remember as a kid being struck this same way when my Mennonite friends got permission from their church to borrow our VCR tv because it didn't have reception and only played videos. I thought it was odd that they would be allowed to watch our movies (not all clean!) but no TV. I also thought it was odd when I saw buggies with radios playing rock music in the early 90's. I understand that 'the Plain life' does not equal NFL, or old fashioned etc., but in many if not most cases, it has played out that way. So when you see modern things like diapers, etc. you wonder, at what point did they decide that was ok or did they do it and not ask? It just stands out as being so opposite as the rest of the life they live.

I realize there are many different ordnungs and have many different rules and some are way more loose and some are way more controlled. Even in Ohio/PA there was great variety between the groups. Variety as in some wore all dark /same colors, some decided orange triangles were too flamboyant for buggies, some decided rubber wheels were not ok for buggies. Mennonite groups are another story - lots more variety there.

I guess I kept posting because I got the impression that some felt that only those who are ignorant about the Amish life would be surprised about seeing disposables. I doubt even my Mennonite friend who cut her hair and wore sweat pants at home after she got married, would use disposables. She's still pretty all-natural. I'll ask my mom to ask her Amish friend about it the next time she goes to her house to pick berries together. Maybe she could tell us something? Are there any former Amish here that could speak on the subject? Did I miss someone saying that they were?

Again I am sorry about the use of the word "hypocritical". That was pretty judgemental. I'm not trying to be an a** about this but since the route they have chosen to live out their convictions about the plain life have played out as life without modern conveniences, etc. major exceptions to that have always struck me as odd.
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#107 of 108 Old 08-01-2005, 02:10 AM
 
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I agree that this an intresting thread and topic. I had wanted to share that a while back my mom was gathering old t-shirts b/c her church was collecting them to send to some country in Africa so the women could use them to make diapers! How cool is that?!

The comment about elders/leaders of a religious community making a statement about something being hypocritical was interesting. one would think that it would take quite a while for the leaders to do this--list every action that is hypocritical if it is done even though it would fall under a more general umbrella (not relying on the outside, simplifying--whatever 'term' you want to use as an example) of things they don't do/accept.

I think that having a discussion in general about ANY topic is good--and this topic is a GREAT example of how educated many of us are becoming. Now, since no one here is an expert on EVERY single amish/mennonite group in the country, it is surely difficult to say, "You're wrong" or "that's a misconception" because as we have seen here--EVERY GROUP IS DIFFERENT. I certainly think that many people were orginally surprised at amish not using cloth b/c IN GENERAL it seems to go against what they might do in their community. Now, yes this is a generalization, but that is part of life. Are you going to label EVERY idea a person develops based on their experiences with any race/culture/religon/etc. as a misconception? I would hope not. Making generalizations is part of life and how we learn. Think about your children and their daily life. My ds is totally in an 'imitation' stage and I would much rather him be exposed to a little something of everything and have him form his own ideas (and generalizations) NOW and teach him when he's older that one can do research or gather more info on any given topic.

I think where people get into trouble is when they act like my brother and assume that someone is claiming to be an 'expert' just because they've majored in, read a book about, or experienced something.

Sharing your experiences/knowledge does not mean that you assume yourself as an expert on that given topic.

And on the other side, sharing your knowledge/experiences (though limited they may be) I do not think makes you ignorant. It just means that you have limited experiences/knowledge and that there may be more to learn.

Now, to share a little Becky Bailey with you all--try to view what others are saying/doing with positive intent. Assume they are acting in a positive way rather than that they are out to get you or tick you off.

I find this esp. helpful in traffic (though it's harder w/MIL), esp after my dh drove 70 mph in a 55 mph zone the day my dad died. I am sure some thought we were being reckless (what with a child in our car and all) but we were racing to get to my dad on his deathbed (though we didn't know it at the time). You just don't know where others are coming from 100% of the time and instead of assuming the worst, you should assume the best and know that we all make bad choices sometimes though it does not make us bad PEOPLE.
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#108 of 108 Old 08-01-2005, 03:07 AM
 
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We need to keep this on topic, please.
I'm thinking this might get moved to another forum very soon.

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