Sposies, Sposies EVERYWHERE at a LLL meeting!?!?!?!?!?!? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 03:21 PM
 
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I *think* the newbie comment was made to the posters on the first couple pages (villagemama and darrel) who have only a few posts...as well as to the posters with high post count that arent current "regulars" in the diapering forum or that haven't posted in other "help" threads recently but hop on the "hyena-bashing" threads.
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#122 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 03:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radish
I *think* the newbie comment was made to the posters on the first couple pages (villagemama and darrel) who have only a few posts...as well as to the posters with high post count that arent current "regulars" in the diapering forum or that haven't posted in other "help" threads recently but hop on the "hyena-bashing" threads.
Thank you for claifying that Regina! I was the one who made a comment about people coming and attacking. I certainly didn't mean they are trolls, but they ARE names I see often in the threads where consumerism and hyenas are talked about in a bad way.

Tiff ~ I TOTALLY agree with you about supporting the WAHMs! I would much rather spend what I do knowing it's going to a mama who is home with her kiddos than spending less to support a big company.
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#123 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 03:31 PM
 
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I pretty much decided to stay out of this because it seems like a two sided issue which neither side is willing to give on.

But it does seem to me that a lot of people come out of the wood work to pass judgement on threads like these and never participate in more positive, helpful threads. Both newbies and long time members who I assume spend most of their time on other boards.

There alwasy seem to be people looking for a fight and when there is any little think they can jump on to create controversy they do. There is expressing your opinion and then there is just plain rude. Rude seems to win in these cases.
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#124 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Max's Mami
I pretty much decided to stay out of this because it seems like a two sided issue which neither side is willing to give on.

But it does seem to me that a lot of people come out of the wood work to pass judgement on threads like these and never participate in more positive, helpful threads. Both newbies and long time members who I assume spend most of their time on other boards.

There alwasy seem to be people looking for a fight and when there is any little think they can jump on to create controversy they do. There is expressing your opinion and then there is just plain rude. Rude seems to win in these cases.
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#125 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 03:42 PM
 
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ok.. my 2 cents now..

well, I understand your frustration. (to the OP) I know you think by going to a LLL meeting, you expect to find NFL mamas. my experience was not like that, at all! the first LLL meeting I went to (one closest to where I live) had mostly bf'ing mamas, but only a few CD'ing. HOWEVER, I did notice that a lot of mamas brag about giving their baby homemade babyfood, when in reality, all I ever saw was jars of gerber. I met one particular person that did this, told everyone she gave her baby homemade, then everytime I saw her, there was jarred. what's up with that? but anyway, I changed LLL groups, the only I go now is much crunchier and natural. plus the mamas are REALLY in real life crunchy, not "I pretend to be crunchy but then I go home, use sposies at night, come on MDC and say sposies are gross" or "I tell everyone I make homemade babyfood but 95% of the time I used jarred" kind of person. kwim? I don't like sinical people, that's the biggest issue for me. being true to what you believe and what you do and not doing something and saying the opposite or trashing what you (general you) do.
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#126 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 03:45 PM
 
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oh.. and I forgot to post.. we CD and I consider myself a hyena, even though I usually frequent other boards more often that the diapering board. (I could say I'm a "regular" at TAO, BS&A and others)
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#127 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 03:59 PM
 
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Well, I tried to clarify. Seems that some people want to retread the same ground and see any alternative point of view as being trouble-making.

I for one was not looking for a fight. Just trying to discuss, but it seems that this is too black and white an issue for most people for there to be any middle ground for discussion.

I will say once again that it's a shame that the discussion could not have been about why mamas mostly have not considered cloth and how this could be addressed. And that negativity could not be directed against the diaper manufacturers who hold the cards. Instead of seeing it as an 'us and them' regarding cds vs disposable users, and even more sad, an 'us and them' re people on this board. Who presumably all share the same overall philosophy of NFL.

As for anti-hyena threads, I must have missed those as I've never seen one, let alone participated.

Oh well.
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#128 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 04:16 PM
 
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I'm in a mommy group where nearly everyone BFs, but only 2 of us CD (and I "cheat" by using a diaper service). When a bunch of us went to lunch one of the women went off on CDs saying that they were worse than 'sposies because washing them hurt the environment more. She also made a comment that on the east coast it made more sense to CD, but out in California where there's plently of landfill space it made more sense to use 'sposies instead of poluting by washing dirty CDs. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I really had to bite my tounge on that one.
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#129 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 04:16 PM
 
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I totally agree that we should be able to discuss and voice our opinions here but there is a nice and considerate way it can be done and most often is not.

It is fine to state your opinion and have it differ from the majority but it doesnt have to be followed by judgement toward those with different views.

Not saying everyone does this but that is what most of this type of thread turn into.

I also agree that nothing in mothering should be an "us vs. them" battle. It seems that when people are not comfortable with their choices they get defensive when they hear others doing things differently.
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#130 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 04:29 PM
 
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"She also made a comment that on the east coast it made more sense to CD, but out in California where there's plently of landfill space it made more sense to use 'sposies instead of poluting by washing dirty CDs. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I really had to bite my tounge on that one."

That is a very common misconception. I know that I"ve read articles stating this as fact. I'm sure the disposable companies love it.

This is an illustration of the point that I've already laboured too much..... it would be far more productive to discuss these issues and why people are so uniformed about cds, than to rant about 'those' women who make such comments.

But it seems that nobody here wants to have this sort of discussion. Maybe it would be better to have it on Activism. Maybe people visit Diapering for different reasons and debate just doesnt work here? Do most diapering people not want debate, but just want chat and to rant if they wish? (I'm not being snarky, btw, but genuinely wondering. I've found myself a lone - or almost lone - voice whenever I've gone against the grain here before and tried to offer an alternative view.)

I have never, imo anyway, been rude, either on this thread or elsewehre on mdc. I don't see this thread as people being rude either, but just frustrating as there seems to be no effort to really listen or to debate or discuss.
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#131 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 04:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum

This is an illustration of the point that I've already laboured too much..... it would be far more productive to discuss these issues and why people are so uniformed about cds, than to rant about 'those' women who make such comments.

But it seems that nobody here wants to have this sort of discussion. Maybe it would be better to have it on Activism. Maybe people visit Diapering for different reasons and debate just doesnt work here? Do most diapering people not want debate, but just want chat and to rant if they wish? (I'm not being snarky, btw, but genuinely wondering. I've found myself a lone - or almost lone - voice whenever I've gone against the grain here before and tried to offer an alternative view.)
Okay, first of all, are you SURE the OP didn't debate or was unwilling to at her LLL meeting?? Honestly, what is wrong with her coming here (to a board of fellow CDING mamas) to, yes, *rant* about her disappointment?? No one said they would not try to calmly discuss the benefits of cd'ing IRL, but doing so here is like preaching to the choir! She came HERE to vent her frustration and people got upset with her for that which *I* believe was uncalled for.

As far as you being rude, I don't think anyone ever said you were. You have calmly discussed/debated your point of view.
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#132 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 04:48 PM
 
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Britishmum -- I am not directing my posts at you. I think you have been very polite and expressed a different opinion in a civilized way and that is great.

I do think calling someone a snob in a judgmental/derogatory way is rude and that has been done a lot and not just in this thread.
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#133 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 05:11 PM
 
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Back to the op. I just wanted to say I know it's a disappointment to not find people who cd. But if it's any consolation, I know tons of irl cders, but none of them are as excited about it as I am. They actually look at me like I have two heads. :LOL
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Single mama to Alex(13), Maddy(12), Sam(8), Violet(6), and Ruby(3). fly-by-nursing1.gif
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#134 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 05:22 PM
 
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Kellieblue, I was talking about debating here. It does seem from the general concensus here that people on diapering do want to just chat with the choir, and that anyone questioning someone's attitude to fellow mothers is therefore seen as a trouble-maker.

It seems that the general mdc culture of questioning and challenging people's thinking does not apply to diapering. If you went anywhere else on mdc, the sort of challenges put up here would not be seen remotely as trouble making, but as a cue to think, analyse, and discuss.

I see that this sort of discussion does not culturally 'fit' here, and will keep my posts in diapering to fluffy stuff.

Thank you both for at least clarifying that my wider questioning here is not seen as rude. It seemed as if all those who put forward an alternative point of view were seen as attackers and rude.
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#135 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 05:34 PM
 
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I know that I said that I wasn't going to post again, but I wanted to sincerly apologise for offending you ladies. My initial frustration was because I have had personal experience with a friend who really was offended and spoke negatively about anyone who didn't have the same parenting styles as her. It really affected me, and was always feeling defensive about my own choices and parenting style of doing whatever works best to keep me sane. I find this behaviour to be snobbish... not intending to call anyone in particular a snob. I really just wanted to point out what a turn off it can be ... because we all just want to do the best for our babies that we love, and do not want anyone to think we are doing an imperfect job. anyways I could have said this in a better way but let my own negative experience colour what I was really trying to say...

:
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#136 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 05:42 PM
 
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You know what!? Big FAT HUGS all around!!!! And a kiss for good measure!
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#137 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 05:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum
Kellieblue, I was talking about debating here. It does seem from the general concensus here that people on diapering do want to just chat with the choir, and that anyone questioning someone's attitude to fellow mothers is therefore seen as a trouble-maker.

It seems that the general mdc culture of questioning and challenging people's thinking does not apply to diapering. If you went anywhere else on mdc, the sort of challenges put up here would not be seen remotely as trouble making, but as a cue to think, analyse, and discuss.

I see that this sort of discussion does not culturally 'fit' here, and will keep my posts in diapering to fluffy stuff.

Thank you both for at least clarifying that my wider questioning here is not seen as rude. It seemed as if all those who put forward an alternative point of view were seen as attackers and rude.
This is where I still have a problem... you come back to start a debate on a thread that was never intended to turn into a debate and hurt feelings along the way. Then you say we cannot "handle" anything other than fluffy posts and happy times? um no.
I think some people are missing the point of the OP and it's taking this thread off to another world... She was looking to rant/vent and have other bounce same or similar feelings off of her post.
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#138 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 07:59 PM
 
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ChristinaB, you are confirming what I just concluded.

You say that this was never supposed to be a debate. Anywhere else on mdc, if you post something, you are not surprised if someone picks up on it and debates it. It's the way mdc is as a board - a discussion board.

I don't think that I hurt anyone's feelings. Have you read the posts I made? I do not think I could be any more respectful or polite than I have been. Several people have commented on that.

I did not say either that people here cannot 'handle' debate. I said "I see that this sort of discussion does not culturally 'fit' here". There is a big difference! I was stating what I had learned from this thread, not being critical.

Diapering obviously operates differently to the other mdc forums, or at least, the ones I frequent. Just go to TAO or education, and it is obvious that just about any thread can turn into a debate. And on the whole, that is what people expect (and like) about mdc. If you post a thread to vent about something elsewhere on mdc, it is highly likely that someone will challenge your thinking.

I don't mind one bit people doing that to me - that is one of the reasons I use this board, as long as they are polite about it. If I want to vent about something, and someone comes along and questions why it bothered me and gave me antoher perspective, I would not see that as rude or hurtful, but somethign I can think about and maybe learn from. And I consider that I have said nothing rude or hurtful here. Why would I be rude about cloth diapering mamas, when I cloth diaper myself, and why would I attack this forum, when I love the diapering forum too?!! Challenging someone's thinking is not the same as being rude or hurting feelings.

All I was doing in my last post was observing that debate clearly is not desired here. No more, no less. You have confirmed this. I have suspected this before, when whole threads have attacked disposable-using parents, with pages of people agreeing, and I have been an almost-lone voice in trying to put forward a different view and see things from their angle.

I will not continue to raise these points, although I think it is a shame as there were a lot of thought-provoking points made here that could have encouraged many of us - including me - to consider our principles and our reactions to others in the cd world and the world in general. It has been interesting that other threads have been started elsewhere on mdc in response to the general content of this one, and people are debating thoughtfully there. I am happy to go there to debate these sorts of issues, now that I understand that it is not wanted by the majority here.
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#139 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 08:20 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Britishmum]

Diapering obviously operates differently to the other mdc forums, or at least, the ones I frequent. Just go to TAO or education, and it is obvious that just about any thread can turn into a debate. And on the whole, that is what people expect (and like) about mdc. If you post a thread to vent about something elsewhere on mdc, it is highly likely that someone will challenge your thinking.

I don't mind one bit people doing that to me - that is one of the reasons I use this board, as long as they are polite about it. If I want to vent about something, and someone comes along and questions why it bothered me and gave me antoher perspective, I would not see that as rude or hurtful, but somethign I can think about and maybe learn from. And I consider that I have said nothing rude or hurtful here. Why would I be rude about cloth diapering mamas, when I cloth diaper myself, and why would I attack this forum, when I love the diapering forum too?!! Challenging someone's thinking is not the same as being rude or hurting feelings."



I agree.
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#140 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 09:30 PM
 
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No one says CD-mamas are excluded from debate. But if you want to talk about diaper consumerism start your own thread, it's not nice to rant on and on about how judgemental and elitist the Diaper mamas are.

FTR, Britishmum, I dont think your early posts were sweet and productive, you kept saying that everyone is judgemental and that the OP should be happy that so many moms are at LLL BFing. Obviously she *is*, as she said she was considering LLL Leadership.

A lot of posts were rude and mean and totally uncalled for.
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#141 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 09:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum
ChristinaB, you are confirming what I just concluded.

You say that this was never supposed to be a debate. Anywhere else on mdc, if you post something, you are not surprised if someone picks up on it and debates it. It's the way mdc is as a board - a discussion board.
It wasn't intended to be a debate. A discussion.. yes. Did you ask Melanie/the OP if she intended this to be a debate? No, it was a vent. I see this going no where so I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum
I don't think that I hurt anyone's feelings. Have you read the posts I made? I do not think I could be any more respectful or polite than I have been. Several people have commented on that.
Maybe I shouldn't have singled you out but yes, feelings were hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum
I don't mind one bit people doing that to me - that is one of the reasons I use this board, as long as they are polite about it. If I want to vent about something, and someone comes along and questions why it bothered me and gave me antoher perspective, I would not see that as rude or hurtful, but somethign I can think about and maybe learn from. And I consider that I have said nothing rude or hurtful here. Why would I be rude about cloth diapering mamas, when I cloth diaper myself, and why would I attack this forum, when I love the diapering forum too?!! Challenging someone's thinking is not the same as being rude or hurting feelings.
Again that is how YOU feel, you may like it but it may hurt others... not saying you said anything diretly to the OP (or maybe you did, I don't remember who said what at this point) but people did, bottom line. Not everyone reacts the same or thinks the same and even though all things are open to debate, sometimes I feel people don't take others feelings into consideration before opening their big mouths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum
I will not continue to raise these points, although I think it is a shame as there were a lot of thought-provoking points made here that could have encouraged many of us - including me - to consider our principles and our reactions to others in the cd world and the world in general. It has been interesting that other threads have been started elsewhere on mdc in response to the general content of this one, and people are debating thoughtfully there. I am happy to go there to debate these sorts of issues, now that I understand that it is not wanted by the majority here.
Whaaaa? Ya know for a bunch of caring moms/people that reside at MDC, I sure find it odd to single out one forum or people in the "cd world" :LOL Correct me if I am wrong but most of these "types" of posts get moved to activism anyways so yes, this is a pretty non-debate forum by nature.
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#142 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 09:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radish
No one says CD-mamas are excluded from debate. But if you want to talk about diaper consumerism start your own thread, it's not nice to rant on and on about how judgemental and elitist the Diaper mamas are.
.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#143 of 166 Old 08-10-2004, 11:48 PM
 
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WOW! I am way behind here but at the end of it all, I am wondering how CDing is a PRIVELAGE & how a few bucks for some loads of laundry each week is more costly than sposies.

Believe me, I have been B-R-O-K-E & CDing was always cheaper than sposies.
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#144 of 166 Old 08-11-2004, 01:06 PM
 
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I will give up. But....

I didn't personallly even mention diaper consumerism. Not once. It is no issue for me. I love it that people are so keen on cds, I love supporting wahms myself - and do so with custom orders to wahms when I need diapers! I'm not into stockings or wool or ebay, but I love diapers and have absolutely no issue with consumerism in the diaper world (except for the disposable issue of course). So I certainly won't be starting a thread on the subject in activism or anywhere else!!

And although this is falling on deaf ears, I have said that I have concluded that in Diapering obviously a vent is supposed to stay just as that, and nobody is expected to question it. Fine. That's what I concluded. It is clearly different to most other mdc forums. To now be told that to conclude exactly what so many of you are telling me is just........

As for hurting feelings, I"m sorry, Radish, if you don't consider my posts polite. I don't aim for 'sweet' but I do aim for polite. I have never been called rude on mdc before, so this is a first for me, which is ironic as it is over cloth diapering, something that I deeply care about!

As for productive, you are right, my posts did not turn out to be productive, because clearly most posters here did not want to question the thinking behind our (I mean, all our) responses to non-cd mothers, or the wider issues of why most people do not cd and have no idea of the advantages of doing so

That is why it was not productive, not because I was making either rude or irrelevant points, but because the discussion was not wanted by most people here. As I said, causing offense yet again, because clearly Diapering is not the place for raising such points and a vent is just supposed to be that, period.

So, before I 'hurt' any more feelings by clarifying that I have concluded exactly what you are telling me I will be quiet.
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#145 of 166 Old 08-11-2004, 01:36 PM
 
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As for hurting feelings, I"m sorry, Radish, if you don't consider my posts polite. I don't aim for 'sweet' but I do aim for polite. I have never been called rude on mdc before, so this is a first for me, which is ironic as it is over cloth diapering, something that I deeply care about!
Oops! My last sentence was not directed at you. I didn't say you mentioned diaper consumerism. Your posts just went on and on about a whole bunch of seemingly irrelevant stuff...

About LLL and how the OP should be happy that women are BF. You said people were judgemental and asked why there was so much "snobbery". You asked her to be more concerned about FF than CDs and that while you like CDing but didnt expect everyone to like it too. Honestly, what was your objective?

And again, no one is saying diapering is exempt from debate or discussion. Just that there is a time and a place for it.
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#146 of 166 Old 08-11-2004, 01:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radish

About LLL and how the OP should be happy that women are BF. You said people were judgemental and asked why there was so much "snobbery". You asked her to be more concerned about FF than CDs and that while you like CDing but didnt expect everyone to like it too. Honestly, what was your objective?
.
I don't get it either. I didn't get any answers, just small rude comments throughout the post
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#147 of 166 Old 08-11-2004, 03:00 PM
 
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Wow, I'm surprised they all cded when they seemed so crunchy. Our moms are more mainstream and jarred food is o.k. Besides me, only one other mom cds and she has twin girls! I love seeing their little fluffy butts through their pants.

Jennifer, LPN and nursing student, Doula, CPST, and VBAC mama x3 to
AJ (5/03), Evan (12/04), Ilana (11/06), Olivia (2/09), and Unity (8/2012)

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"About LLL and how the OP should be happy that women are BF. You said people were judgemental and asked why there was so much "snobbery". You asked her to be more concerned about FF than CDs and that while you like CDing but didnt expect everyone to like it too. Honestly, what was your objective?"

Actually I did call anyone 'judgemental'. I mentioned that there is a tone to this thread that I find judgemental. There is a difference. eg, I said:

"The judgemental tone, imo, came in with comments about people being hypocritical to talk of feeding organic baby food but not use cloth diapers, because of the chemicals used in disposables. Following that logic, anyone here who injects chemicals into their child along with vaccinations is even more 'hypocritical', or anyone who uses any form of chemical cleaners in their home, or anyone who is not perfect for that matter in any aspect of NFL."

But nobody seemed interested in taking that on board or discussing it.

I did not say that anyone was being a snob. I did ask 'why the snobbery?" in general, to all of us, not to anyone specific nor specifically to this thread. I was also referring to the previous threads where hundreds of posters jump on the bandwagon to slam terrible disposable users.

I actually do find it disturbing that someone can post, anywhere on mdc, that she likes to 'boast her superiority' and that most people saw nothing wrong in that. If that is an acceptable tone to most of you, I'm afraid it is not to me.

"And again, no one is saying diapering is exempt from debate or discussion. Just that there is a time and a place for it."

Yep, which is what I've said several times that I have concluded - that for the majority of posters on diapering, it is clearly not in this type of post. A vent obviously, here, requires cyber hugs and agreement, not questioning in any shape or form. Which is not what is common to other areas of mdc, but I see it is here, and it is clear now that this sort of thread is not the 'time and place' for questioning ourselves or others.

ChristinaB, I do not believe that I have made one 'rude comment'. I have been polite and tried to explain myself over and over again. To little avail, sadly. If you think that questioning thinking is rude, then we have a different definition of rude.

I'm sorry that you think you got no answers. I have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to answer you all and discuss this rationally, but it seems that I am talking into a vaccuum here.

I didnt feel like I received many answers either. For example when I asked how this logic works - if those women at the LLL were 'hypocritical' for putting disposable diapers on their babies bums but organic food and breastmilk in their tums, which so many of you agreed with, does it not follow that every single parent who uses cloth but vaccinates their children and so injects all sorts of chemicals directly into their body, a hypocrite? Just an hypothetical question, and I was questioning logic here not making a statement, before you decide to leap on me for being anti-vacc.........but not one person chose to answer this question. Because, as you say, there is a 'time and a place' for debate and questioning oneself or others, and clearly, this is not the place.
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#149 of 166 Old 08-11-2004, 08:26 PM
 
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"Honestly, what was your objective?"

I missed this question. I think that I have explained this over and over. But if you choose not to accept it, there is no more that I can do. I was responding to this thread the way I would to a similar thread on other areas of mdc, but clearly what is expected elswehre on mdc is not expected from most mamas on Diapering. We live and learn. I will not make this mistake again.
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#150 of 166 Old 08-11-2004, 08:36 PM
 
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I will answer the question re: being hypocrytical. Yes, I think it is hypocritical to bash people for their non-natural practices. I do not practice NFL 100% - I try, but whose perfect?

That is why I don't bash anyone who isn't perfect either Its been a few days since I read the OP so I won't even refer to it. I'm just speaking for your Q in general.

I do speak ill of certain practices - sposie using, non-recycling, jarred food etc....

However, I can't and don't speak ill of those who do those things - we can't all do it all. I try my best, but I have been known to occasionally throw away a plastic container with rotting food in it because I am just too overwhelmed with duties to wash it out! (please no flames, I do this rarely) The point I am trying to make is that I don't see any benefit to myself or anyone else in puttin gdown individual people, but feel it is important to speak the facts about certain practices.

I do think its alright to vent shamelessly on occasion Although I feel its important to be as respectful as possible so that the atmosphere of this community is peaceful and one that people can learn from.
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