Thoughts on stalking - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have a feeling this may become controversial, but I'm going to ask anyway. The recent Little Lovies Hyena Cart thread got me thinking:

With certain diaper brands in demand all the time, and with many of them in such short supply, wouldn't it be better to only stalk for diapers you know you'll use in regular rotation, rather than snagging whatever size you possibly can, or trying for diapers you don't really need, or don't need anytime too soon, or don't know if you'll use very much?

Here's my personal dilemma - I have a new baby coming. I'd LOVE to get some WAHM diapers for him/her. I can only do it in bits and pieces. HOWEVER, whenever someone who is carrying something that looks like a good fit stocks, buyers flock to the site, buy anything they can get their hands on, multiple people are stalking the same item for one person......it's a madhouse. And those of us without the super-hyena constitution are left in the dust.
It woudn't be so bad if all the diapers bought like this were then well-used by the person who bought them......but it seems than many of them end up in stashes for future babies that haven't yet been conceived, or they end up on the trading post (where you also have to be a hyena to get anything : )......

Any thoughts? Is my perception skewed, or is this really becoming more of a problem?
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#2 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 10:50 AM
 
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what were you trying to get?
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#3 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:00 AM
 
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I think that you are approaching cloth diapering from a very practical perspective, and in that context, it makes sense that you would be critical of some of the collective stalking behaviors that we catch glimpses of in posts. I'm not sure that you are accurate about how little people use these highly-stalked-for diapers, though-- because posts made in the heat of stalking don't necessarily reflect what will happen to that diaper when it makes it home. I think it is likely that those diapers get lots of use out of them.

I've never stalked for anything nor have I felt compelled to buy anything that you have to stalk for, so I kind of scratch my head at the time and energy that gets put into stalking. But it seems to me that there are folks for whom cloth diapering is more than just a practical way to diaper their babies, that they enjoy collecting cloth diapers that may or may not get used as much as the diapers that other people have. And they enjoy the stalking process of collecting those diapers. In part, many WAHM's are so successful BECAUSE there are people who buy more diapers than they technically need and/or because of the "press" they receive during stocking and stalking.

And, as they used to say on Seinfeld, not that there's anything wrong with that. It seems to me that people whose personal values and/or reasons for cloth diapering are more practical or economical are often critical of stalking or "cute diapers that you cover up". Lots of people can't ever imagine spending a lot of time and/or money on cloth diapering products. There are threads that repeat these themes all the time, and sometimes everybody gets defensive about their choices and their stash and their purchasing behaviors.

I don't think anyone has to feel defensive about what or how much they buy or how they buy it. Sometimes people buy for retail therapy and sometimes people buy for compulsive reasons and sometimes people buy like collectors of any other hobby and sometimes people buy as a way to show love to their babes and sometimes people buy just for sheer fun and sometimes people buy because they really need the product. There are surely a 1000 other reasons why people buy diapers. But the bottom line is that whatever the reason, buying is good for the cloth diapering world. It's what helps create better products and more choices and innovations. Without a market for products, cloth diapering would stagnate and also probably turn generic. Love it or hate it, stalking is what creates the market.

That's my perspective.

Karla
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#4 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:11 AM
 
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I just don't get people who stalk to stalk yk? like they will post "I got this this and this who wants it?" I mean if you didn't want it why are you there wasting the bandwidth and time/energy to snag it? As Karla said via Seinfeld "not that there is anything wrong with that" it just doesn't make much sense to me?
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#5 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:21 AM
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I dont' have a long-term enough sense to answer if its worse-- although hearing stories about old SOS stockings, etc makes me think same thing different day.

I've only gone to a couple of stockings, more for the fun of it, although I would've bought a med diaper last night if I'd had any success... and I have no hard feelings that I didn't. Truthfully I am somewhat relieved b/c I really prefer our diapers used (for price mainly, but also to know what its going to look like after washed, they are "broken in", etc)

I do agree with Karla that our motivations and modes of purcharsing vary a lot. So the thrill of the hunt for some plays into purchasing. The rest of my life is so amazingly boring and 2nd hand, etc... I'm a little shocked at myself relative to my diaper hobby of the past year. Pleasantly shocked, but my stash is really quite huge for 1 little 5mo old. But thats just simple fluff joy. I think I've gone to the stockings (all 3 or 4, I'm not crashing the systems ) more as an anthropologist. They intrigue me. This community intrigues me, in all its variances.

I do wonder about the "snag something and trade it later" or the "shopping for someone else" stuff. But it doesn't bother me. I have an old Accord and an old Sentra, but that doesn't mean I don't understand that some people take immaculate care of their cars so they can trade up for a new one every 2 years.

Anyway, I hope that what you're saying isn't controversial. You raise interesting points. And I hope you can find some WAHM nb diapers. I think we all know that theres some great WAHMs who are continuing to plug along and who the hyena group has somewhat moved on from and who should have some wonderful products. (I skipped nb diapers basically and we just used PFs, so I don't know anything about the nb ones)

good wishes to you!
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#6 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:23 AM
 
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I've never noticed anyone stalking just to stalk and then offering it up to anyone. Usually when I see people saying, 'I got this, you can have it' it's because the person just wants to be nice when they see how much someone else wanted the item.

I think that Stell's perception *is* a bit skewed, because she's paying more attention to the stalked-for-dipes, and not remembering that most WAHM diapers are pretty easily obtainable. I tried several attainable WAHM diapers this month, with delightful results. I got a sugarplumbaby fitted that was just sitting there instock, I casually ordered up a calico baby custom fitted, I ordered up an embroidered very baby AIO from flutterbybaby without any hurry to beat the hyenas, as well as one from snuggleyou or snuggle something or other, and Little Lovies was another one of my 'new tries' this month. Next I will try Tykies, Crystal's Cloth, an organic cotton side snapping sugarpeas....(heard these are super soft).... None of these I anticipate having to spend much energy or time ordering, just some $$$. All of these are WAHM sewn diapers, and all of them are currently regarded as super quality, awesomely made, and good fits on most babes. And available!

Anyway, I'm not sure where I was going with that, just wanted to say that I think there are plenty of WAHMs who aren't swamped beyond capacity yet, and I often start threads asking who everyone's favorite 'non-swamped' WAHM is, and I hope they encourage people to sample WAHM products from the less-stalked-over makers.
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#7 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:23 AM
 
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I hear what you're saying. We moved this summer and my addiction to the diapering board (and CDs in general other than as a means to diaper a baby) was broken. Now I'd just like the occasional opportunity to actually buy a WAHM diaper for my new baby and its all sort of silly to try if anyone has heard of them and they are new to the market (I notice that a lot of the "old timers" often have stock and they are old timers for a reason but I'd like to try the occasional new WAHM too, kwim?)

Personally, the hyena thing is way old and all the new twists in hyena-ing that have developed over the past year and a half make CDing harder, not easier.
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#8 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:26 AM
 
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There are so many more brands of diapers out there that are good and will work for your child so don't get discouraged. People are always excited to try the new, hot thing but then it passes and if the wahm is still in business her products are easier to get.

Mom of a 7 yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old. Wow. How did that happen?
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#9 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:26 AM
 
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Well, I personally love being a hyena (not ashamed at all! ) and I don't think it makes CDing hard for anyone. There are such great diapers available for everyone, and all the excitement over certain brands just helps the WAHM who is currently in the spotlight, and creates more fun and enthusiasm for cloth diapering in general. Like Karla says, it drives the market and helps designs improve, things not to stagnate, blah blah blah (she was way more eloquent than me, as usual).
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#10 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:27 AM
 
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You know I don't have a firm opinion on this...I think if someone got something for me I'd be pretty happy....

However I don't go for the hyena type diapers because I know that if I get one and absolutely love it then I'll want another 10, 11, 12 or more and it will make me dissatisfied with my stash. So basically I stick to diapers that are available pretty much all the time.

They may not have the *hype* that other dipes have, but there are lots of good diapers out there in stock or able to be custom ordered with a short turn around time (eg. in my stash are muttaquins, sugarpeas)
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#11 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:43 AM
 
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I had a solution to your problem....buy from the WAHMs whose stuff you can get, but who still make great quality diapers/covers (like hidden pearl creations,crystal's cloth and darling diapers the first two are even open for custom orders with a pretty quick turn around time).

As for stuff ending up on the TP, well not all diapers/covers work for all babies, so something highly sought after products might not fit the person's dc or the colors might not look the same IRL as they did in the photo (both reasons why you might see a brand new item on the TP).
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#12 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allformyboys
I just don't get people who stalk to stalk yk? like they will post "I got this this and this who wants it?" I mean if you didn't want it why are you there wasting the bandwidth and time/energy to snag it? As Karla said via Seinfeld "not that there is anything wrong with that" it just doesn't make much sense to me?
I personally don't mind the stalking/stalkers. I don't participate, and it doesn't bother me.

What does bother me is what is referred to in the quote above; quickly buying anything you can get your hands on, then deciding you don't want it - if nobody else wants it, you email the WAHM back and say "Sorry! I don't actually want it". It is rude to the WAHM. This has happened several times at the last couple of MDF stockings. It seems to me that once you "buy" and item, even if you don't complete the paypal process, you have a contract to buy - just like at eBay.

Think of it from the WAHMs perspective. We get very excited when something sells (yes, even if it is a hyena item and you pretty much know it will sell). We count on that money to pay bills. When somebody buys something quickly, then emails that they don't want it after all, or even trades before they pay - so somebody else is now responsible to pay for the original transaction - it makes more work for the WAHM, ties up stock that they could be selling to someone who does want it, and hurts feelings (the WAHMs).

I think all the hynea frenzy is crazy, but I DO understand it. I also understand the OP frustration and concerns. I'm not sure there is much to change it.

However, I would say this: PLEASE if you "buy" something through Hyena Cart (or anywhere else), it is your responsibility to complete the transaction and pay for it, just like if you win an auction or hit "buy it now" on eBay. There's no place for WAHMs to leave feedback for "Non-Paying Hyenas", and Non Paying Hyena-ing is happening quite a bit. That really does hurt the WAHMs business/time/income.

Even if you do have buyer's remorse, you still need to pay for your item. Then, you can put it on the TP or eBay or trade. But don't make more work for the WAHM in having to figure out who owes her money for the purchase.
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#13 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterflymom
I've never noticed anyone stalking just to stalk and then offering it up to anyone. Usually when I see people saying, 'I got this, you can have it' it's because the person just wants to be nice when they see how much someone else wanted the item.

I think that Stell's perception *is* a bit skewed, because she's paying more attention to the stalked-for-dipes, and not remembering that most WAHM diapers are pretty easily obtainable. I tried several attainable WAHM diapers this month, with delightful results. I got a sugarplumbaby fitted that was just sitting there instock, I casually ordered up a calico baby custom fitted, I ordered up an embroidered very baby AIO from flutterbybaby without any hurry to beat the hyenas, as well as one from snuggleyou or snuggle something or other, and Little Lovies was another one of my 'new tries' this month. Next I will try Tykies, Crystal's Cloth, an organic cotton side snapping sugarpeas....(heard these are super soft).... None of these I anticipate having to spend much energy or time ordering, just some $$$. All of these are WAHM sewn diapers, and all of them are currently regarded as super quality, awesomely made, and good fits on most babes. And available!

Anyway, I'm not sure where I was going with that, just wanted to say that I think there are plenty of WAHMs who aren't swamped beyond capacity yet, and I often start threads asking who everyone's favorite 'non-swamped' WAHM is, and I hope they encourage people to sample WAHM products from the less-stalked-over makers.

Angelica, we must be thinking alike.

I have on order a sugarbums, a crystals cloth a calico baby.
I plan to order a ss sugarpeas and I've been thinking about ordering a sugarplum baby and SCC.

whiich have you received and tried? How do you like them?

ETA: I also ordered a Lucy's Hope Chest fitted too.
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#14 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnitti
Angelica, we must be thinking alike.

I have on order a sugarbums, a crystals cloth a calico baby.
I plan to order a ss sugarpeas and I've been thinking about ordering a sugarplum baby and SCC.

whiich have you received and tried? How do you like them?
I know I am not who you were asking, but I my crystal's cloth diapers and covers..they are still "new" so I can't report on the longevity of them, but her workmomship is awesome and she is very sweet to deal with. SPB are well made, too, but run a little big in the thighs IMO...they hold up awesome and are very trim. I only have covers from SCC, but they are sewn well...her wool jersey is so very soft, she customized the covers to fit ds perfectly (I gave her meassurements instead of just ordering a size) and she is incredibly fast!
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#15 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:56 AM
 
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I know EXACTLY what you mean. I'm a retired hyena, more b/c of dial up connection than anything else. I tried to get many uhhhh higher end/botiquey/wahm/oneofakind/you get the idea items for Zach when I was pg for him in newborn and infant size, and it did irritate me to see items I tried to get that sold to mamas who were 'thinking about ttc' and whatnot. I mean, all is fair in love and diapers and everyone has the freedom to buy whatever they want and (not) use it however they wish, but I literally couldn't build a stash entirely the way I wanted b/c the diapers I wanted were too hard to get. Luckily, it ended up being moot point as he was much larger than anticipated and I ended up using mostly pf's so the money would have been somewhat wasted. I no longer stalk. I can see where some mamas do it as a nice gesture to help others out so I see both sides of the issue.

I have no clue if this is a big problem or will grow into one b/c now I purposely seek out lesser known and starting out wahms rather than the established ones with hard to get items. Less stress, more diapers, happy mama, happy cd'ed baby, cheaper prices, reaaalllly happy mama. End of story.
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#16 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:57 AM
 
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Oh yeah! Sugarbums, SCC, Darling Diapers, Angelwraps, etc etc etc.... there are lots of great, obtainable dipes out there!

I thought the spb (L) was great and fit my ds much like a LC2. the Calico Baby is impeccably made and so absorbent. I don't usually like front elastic, but it was fine. If I order more I'll ask for 2 layers in the body instead of 3, and skip the woven print outer and keep it bare and stretchy.

I forgot to mention the Baby Bloomrs I have on order --I'm getting a painted AIO, a print AIO, and 2 fitteds, along with clothes to match this huge coffee theme! I heard from Claire/Spark (and saw in pics) that these fitteds and AIOs fit much like FCB or FLAG, so I am so excited about Christina's creations coming my way! I am almost 100% certain these will be impossible to get in a matter of...weeks? Hard to say when she will become completely saturated with orders and her stockings will become mad but right now she has items sitting instock!
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#17 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 11:58 AM
 
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I have really mixed feelings about this subject. Like alot of the hyenas out there I enjoy the "thrill of the hunt" on occasion. And please don't take this the wrong way but it bewilders me the time and energy that some will put into stalking a certain diaper or cover, which for me is time I'd rather spend with my babies, or getting something done around the house! I cannot fathom sitting in front of my computer for hours waiting to purchase a diaper, there are things so much more important for me to be doiing with my time and my children's time.

That being said, I am so glad that there are some WAHMs that make super quality stuff that is attainable ie, Crystal's Cloth, Sugar Plum Baby, and Calico Baby. We've purchased from all of these mamas and they really do make great products


The two things that do bother me and I've seen only get worse since joining this board is this: The stalking/buying and then offering it for sale literally minutes after the purchase. And the constant threads saying "I need someone to stalk this, this, and that for me!"

I don't know why it bothers me, it just does! It seems to bring out the worst in us "consumers". Now, I'm not saying that people should be policed for what they are buying and ultimately nobody has any control over how/when/what people buy. But, I think at times the hyenaness, and hurt feelings over missing out on somebody's stocking gets out of hand.

Please don't bash me, these are just my feelings on the topic!
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#18 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 12:01 PM
 
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I have not stalked a store for a very long time. It gave me such a rush. :LOL
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#19 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 12:02 PM
 
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Yeah, and as far as diapers go, the only one that comes to mind that is hard to get and there is really no similar product on the market is el bee, and there is no mad stocking stalkings with her, just a long list (which I love). Not much out there similar to an el bee so if that's the only thing that floats a mama's boat, I can see her frustration... however, if you name me any other hyena diaper I will name you a very similar, (quality-proven) WAHM diaper that you can get for less money and less stress and if the 'so coveted' aspect isn't big to you (and if it is, well... ) then you will be just as happy. (i.e. sugarpeas side snap instead of Little Lovies, I could go on but I'm afraid to offend and it's all just my opinion, right? )

Covers is slightly harder....I mean where else can you get an awesome rice cashmere cover than from Maria? :LOL But there are still such awesome wool covers and soakers out there totally obtainable and it's not like babies are sitting around in PUL because Maria can't keep up with orders, and Jes is getting overwhelmed, KWIM? (Stacinator, Fuz, Sugarpeas all make *awesome* wool covers).
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#20 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 12:06 PM
 
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Holli, you're good. and you are the type of customer that keeps WAHMs happy !

I hate the implication that stalkers have their babies crying it out in the corner because mamas glued to the 'puter for fluffymail stockings or whatever. I think that is probably NOT the case for us MDC mamas. Babes do sleep, or go off and play with siblings or DH and leave mama with some alone time, etc.....Let's not try to make assumptions and say something offensive (even insinuating that someone's parenting is sub-par at any time, during a stocking or whatever, is going to offend).
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#21 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 12:13 PM
 
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My babe was right on my lap watching me :LOL

A 5 month old in training :LOL


ETA: DH called me at the same time too. I put him on speaker phone. It couldn't have been worse timing.
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#22 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 12:13 PM
 
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That was NOT my implication. I am simply saying that I cannot spend the time stalking because I have other things that I have to do during the day, whether it is doing something with my children or scrubbing toilets. So please don't turn it into something it is not!

I'm not saying I approve or disapprove of someone being a hyena. I just get tired of seeing the massive posts after a stalking about someone trying to sell or trade something they just snagged and can't be used, or the constant requests for help stalking.

Again, these are just my feelings and I am in NO WAY being judgemental.
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#23 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 12:16 PM
 
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#24 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 12:17 PM
 
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I stalk to help others and I stalk for myself. I also am a happy hyena. I see fun in it. I think your forgetting why a WAHM becomes a hyena, b/c her products ROCK! Who doesnt want a product that rocks??? So of course we are gonna make a mad dash to get her stuff, and why cant other people who have never tried this product try it as it may work wonderfully for their child as well. I dont think if a Momma stalks for this product shes not gonna use it. I had tons of Hyena dipes I stalked for and some I didnt use, and as hard as it was (knowing I'll never get another) I sold them just recently.

Also...Why cant one stalk for a baby yet concieved or plan ahead? Seems like a silly request.

I dunno, I just dont see the big deal. You stalk a WAHM and hope for the diaper or go to a "non-hyena" WAHM with great products and you dont stalk. Theres nothing more you can do. Its not gonna change. If a business makes good products, theyre gonna be harder to get, you cant change that.
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#25 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, at least it's not just me having these feelings....even if we're in the minority!

I totally get the hobby thing, and kudos to you folks who CAN stalk, or buy weekly fluff, or try new diapers just to see how they are - you're the folks that really help out the WAHM's.

I guess I'm just feeling frustrated - I'm finally seeing actual pictures of lots of different types of newborn diapers on actual newborn babies, and that's been giving me definite ideas of what I am and am not looking for......and then I go to the site to see if there's any there, and there never ever is. Couple that with the whole "I know a secret to snagging everything in hyena cart" deal from the Little Lovies stocking, and it gets irksome. How can a diaper-chicken like me compete with a pack of hyenas, yk? :LOL
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#26 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 12:59 PM
 
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I think the thing that bothers me the most is the "Hey I got the size___, who wants it" posts. They are on every thread that is on high stalking alert, and usually SECONDS after the stalking has taken place. Why buy something you don't need/want.
Another issue that I think is taken WAY too lightly is the "hey can you stalk for me" where someone buys for someone else then contacts the WAHM with the details. This is very confusing when you are dealing with the "paper trail" Your order status says one name, then the paypal comes in from a different location. Keep in mind this is one order out of many.
During book keeping time, this can be a headache..
Ok, who did I actually send this to.....
I myself have been caught up in the frenzy so many times. I know the rush. I know the excitement. I also know hyena cart runs fast and there is a trick that some are keeping to themselves. Since I no longer stalk, I just watch (thats fun too). I love to see what these talented WAHMs have up for grabs (if I even get to see it :LOL)
I am not trying to be rude, mean, or hurt anyones feelings. Just giving my opinions

Shelly- www.hyenacart.com/tyedyedreams 12 years and going strong Bleed free prefolds, flats and clothes
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#27 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 01:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jmreinke
I personally don't mind the stalking/stalkers. I don't participate, and it doesn't bother me.

What does bother me is what is referred to in the quote above; quickly buying anything you can get your hands on, then deciding you don't want it - if nobody else wants it, you email the WAHM back and say "Sorry! I don't actually want it". It is rude to the WAHM. This has happened several times at the last couple of MDF stockings. It seems to me that once you "buy" and item, even if you don't complete the paypal process, you have a contract to buy - just like at eBay.

Think of it from the WAHMs perspective. We get very excited when something sells (yes, even if it is a hyena item and you pretty much know it will sell). We count on that money to pay bills. When somebody buys something quickly, then emails that they don't want it after all, or even trades before they pay - so somebody else is now responsible to pay for the original transaction - it makes more work for the WAHM, ties up stock that they could be selling to someone who does want it, and hurts feelings (the WAHMs).

I think all the hynea frenzy is crazy, but I DO understand it. I also understand the OP frustration and concerns. I'm not sure there is much to change it.

However, I would say this: PLEASE if you "buy" something through Hyena Cart (or anywhere else), it is your responsibility to complete the transaction and pay for it, just like if you win an auction or hit "buy it now" on eBay. There's no place for WAHMs to leave feedback for "Non-Paying Hyenas", and Non Paying Hyena-ing is happening quite a bit. That really does hurt the WAHMs business/time/income.

Even if you do have buyer's remorse, you still need to pay for your item. Then, you can put it on the TP or eBay or trade. But don't make more work for the WAHM in having to figure out who owes her money for the purchase.
I totally agree! Changing an order (to a different momma) is more work for the WAHM, it happens, it isn't a big deal if it is one or two times but if it is the same people over and over it would really get annoying yk? I mean people have to change all their records and update everything. The "oops I got caught in the hype and didn't really want that" excuse really is quite rude and even with hyena things if they have to be put back up after the official stocking sometimes they sit.

The whole stalking for others thing doesn't bother me, not does the stalking just to stalk and then offering it to whoever wants it, but your right, it does make more work for the WAHM, and well I just don't 'get' it yk? LOL (there are a lot of things I don't 'get' doesn't mean they bother me )

Also buying something you don't have the money for, or can't pay for for a while is something that does bother me. I know there are a few hyena's that will buy whatever they can buy and then go to the TP after they score to raise the money to pay for it, which can take a week or more at times. Just delaying to pay until they have the money, which is fine for the person buying the diaper but the WAHM might NEED that money when she stocks not 2 weeks later yk? Like people stock to buy school supplies, or pay for a dinner out for an anniversary or something, it is often done by WAHM's and to have people just not pay for weeks is frustrating. **This isn't to say if you clear it with the WAHM before you buy, or if she okay's it after the fact there is anything wrong with that, but you SHOULD clear it with her, I have had a number of customers do this and I have NO problem with it at all, but I have had customers just not respond to the payment e-mail, or just ignore me all together until they can come up with the money, that isn't cool.
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#28 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 01:10 PM
 
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Well there goes my success, lol. But seriously, like she said NO big deal...its not like I was screwing with the system. You just have to use ur skills.
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#29 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 01:11 PM
 
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Also, wanted to add....Do we all have to follow the same procedure at hyenacart to win..sheeesh.
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#30 of 60 Old 09-01-2004, 01:15 PM
 
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its ok....I shoulda just kept my mouth shut and no one woula been bothered cause no one would have known. I know that sounds mean but its not like what I was doing was illegal or sniping.
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