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#151 of 163 Old 01-03-2005, 10:37 PM
 
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I followed this thread yesterday until Pamela Anderson showed up, then just ran across it again. like boobiemama said, I thought it was just too much energy spent on this topic. but then, angelica, wow! great posts! ITA with you and others.

and as I've said before, jamie, you crack me up!

I'm in for the libertarian group hug too.

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#152 of 163 Old 01-03-2005, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Gosh- I am simply not smart enough to keep up with this thread!
:LOL me either.
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#153 of 163 Old 01-03-2005, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jessicaSAR
On one level, I agree. There are some pretty different core beliefs here. However, that does not discourage dialogue for me. Since I am really not satisfied with either position, I keep thinking that there might be a new sythesis possible here, a new way of thinking about these sorts of questions.

What it really boils down to for me is that fact that I am suspicious of any theory that claims to have solved the problem or answered the question definitively for all time. The older I get, and the more I learn, the more I realize what I don't know. Part of the criticism of my sort of contextual and complicated ethics is that it is so messy and indeterminate, and you always have to keep thinking. Well, that's just what I like best about it. I am much more comfortable with the grey area than I am with hard and fast principles. I think a little cognitive dissonance is enlightening and really the only way to see some sorts of oppression.
Now once again you've said it better than I could. I also enjoy the dialogue and I'm not particularly happy w/ any of the different sides. I punt into deontological ethics b/c I'm definitely unhappy w/ pronouncements of apriori and/or ontological "ethics."

Even those claiming to love capitalist-type ideologies are really talking about rule-bound "capitalism." Otherwise you'd think what Enron did is perfectly legitimate, that unfettered monopolies are acceptable and that junk bond trading is great. There are laws against corrupt levels of greed that pure capitalism would just have to put up with. But the concept of "corrupt" only comes up b/c the community agrees that unfettered capitalism goes awry much too easily.

Is that beyond the scope of a simple diapering discussion of re-selling things on ebay? Of course. But a number of the responses here are rather naive in their portrayals of capitalism-- as if its an ethical system of god-given, natural or human rights. Capitalism is NOT an ethical system, although its definitely got plenty of people who justify the economics w/ philosophical pronouncements. I don't happen to buy lots of them.

I believe in tax codes which help to redistribute money, for instance. I believe in community members helping each other. And I'm perfectly confident that many of the proponents of capitalism (here and elsewhere) are deeply involved in charitable good works and volunteerism. Thats great, and definitely softens the blow of the ugly side of capitalism.

Put another way, Rawls has an idea that if we were building a community and you didn't know which job you would have...the income disparity between the jobs would not be nearly as great as turns out in real life. The garbage collector would not be so disdained in economic terms b/c if you don't know if you'll be the garbage collector or the dentist, you're more likely to make their incomes more equal. I do think this plays into diapers as well, given that the sewing WAHMs don't really earn a proper working wage (most of them don't seem to anyway). This is true of most traditionally-female jobs. That smacks of a generic oppression against the roles of women in our society. Thats perfectly acceptable in the capitalist scheme. Its not acceptable in mine. How do I fight it? Well, I can buy "small"-- I can support WAHMs instead of Proctor and Gamble. I can be part of a small enclave of a special economy instead of the generic disposible economy.

Yes, our enclave has many elements of capitalism. It'd be silly to claim or hope otherwise. But its also a small sub-economy with its own communitarian ethics. And the growing pains of the community are fully evidenced in the above debate.

Anyway, I think I'm basically following Jessica's line of thinking and really appreciate the thoughts behind her posts. I appreciate Angelica's side too, I just don't lean that way so much.

Can I still join in the group hug?
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#154 of 163 Old 01-04-2005, 12:01 AM
 
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I was beginning to feel a little left out of the hugging here. I might have to beg into the libertarian group hug too. There don't seem to be enough old hippies here to form a group.
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#155 of 163 Old 01-04-2005, 12:03 AM
 
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Virg and Jessica, can I get in on your hug?
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#156 of 163 Old 01-04-2005, 12:14 AM
 
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I'd like a Libertarian hug from Terri, too.


This thread has really evolved to be very interesting. I've enjoyed reading it.

It's interesting how understood "rules" or Mores tend to be more important than the written ones. That's such a great thing about communities.

Still on the subject of reselling diapers....

When a person scalps them, it irritates me. This is from the consumers point of view. From a business point of view.... it's not even my business.

OTOH, who has time to determine who is buying and reselling because it didn't work out for them and who is scalping hyena products? Certainly not me. We all have children to take care of or prepare for.

Personally, I am happy that people are willing to pay $70 for a diaper. I'm happy that people love Fuzbaby and will pay $$ for those too. I think it sets a standard in the cloth diapering community.... a standard that makes it so that wahms get paid for their time and effort. I think it puts women owned businesses on a new level. This is what we need to do... we need to work towards small businesses succeeding.

If people are always out for the cheapest diapers and the greatest deals, they are not going to be able to support the small guy. They will need to buy manufactured diapers. But, if people continue to appreciate the finer qualities of handmade items in unique designes, they will continue to seek out the small wahms to purchase from, and this will help the small guys succeed. All of us women have the power to change society, and the power to support the small guys. If it means we spend a little more, that is worth it to me. If it means that some people pay $20 for a diaper and turn around and sell it for $70 on ebay... that is worth it to me.

Teri
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#157 of 163 Old 01-04-2005, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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: if there's any hugging room left, I sure could use in.
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#158 of 163 Old 01-04-2005, 12:41 AM
 
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I find Teri's perspective very interesting precisely because it is not based entirely on a libertarian, "we are free/have the right to do whatever we want with our money" approach. Rather, she has offered a rationale for selling high that is also justified by the positive consequences of doing so. I am actually pretty sympathetic to this argument. If I could be convinced that selling hyena diapers to the highest bidder would indeed raise the profile of small wahm made items thereby mitigating gender based income inequality, and enouraging small,local economies, and that these benefits outweigh the potentially harmful consequence of promoting an attitude of materialism and consumerism then I might be willing to keep my diapproving mouth shut. I am not yet convinced, but I am open to the possibility.
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#159 of 163 Old 01-04-2005, 12:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by averymybaby
: if there's any hugging room left, I sure could use in.
I think this thread has been fun, and you are welcome in any hug I'm in!
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#160 of 163 Old 01-04-2005, 10:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by girlfactory
You can speak for me anyday..........you are complete, concise, and to the point in your thoughts. I appreciate that I also happen to agree with your points.
Ooh, I've been validated! :LOL Now I'm in on the group hug, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessicaSAR
If I could be convinced that selling hyena diapers to the highest bidder would indeed raise the profile of small wahm made items thereby mitigating gender based income inequality, and enouraging small,local economies...
Now, that's exactly the sort of idea I'm talking about. Nicely put!
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#161 of 163 Old 01-04-2005, 12:52 PM
 
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:LOL

This thread gets more and more interesting, and I am glad we had it.

My views are strange... and probably not popular in any way. But, I believe that if there is somebody selling an item, and somebody wanting to buy that item for the price it is being sold..... allrighty then... let them deal with each other. It's their item, their money.... and it benefits the market.

Here's the capitalist in me speaking.... When somebody has a lot of money to spend, and spends it on items such as expensive cloth diapers, it distributes the money to the smaller guys. Keeping the money distributed keeps the economy good. Hey... re-distribute the wealth! Keeping the smaller guy in business helps the gap between poor and rich shrink. My idea of an ideal world would be one where everybody has a job, because they want to contribute to society. Everybody is compensated fairly for that job, and those who hit hard times are helped out by their community. I see that a lot in the cloth diapering world. We hear of a wahm in hard times and we all pull together to help.

Anyway... if somebody has $70 to spend and wants to spend it on an Elbee, I would rather see that $70 go to hand made cloth diapers, and the money distributed to the smaller guys, than see the mama run to a large store (Gap, Gymboree, etc.) and spend it there. kwim?

Now, personally, I can't spend $70 on a diaper. I would go to a lesser known wahm that makes quality products. But, if the person wants that Elbee and is willing to pay for it.... let them. There are other good quality diapers out there.... plenty of them. So, I don't buy for a moment that it is the only option for this person.... must have elbee or child won't have diapers at all.... but again... it's not really my business.

My concern is seeing the smaller guys succeed and the economy improved by this success.

And in my own case, I had some of the coolest diapers. I had an FCB, a few ecobaby grow with me, a Fuz, a Little Lovies, a knickernappies, etc. All kinds of nice diapers. I saved them for my friend who has a baby that is over a year younger than Emily. So, when I didn't need them anymore, I was giving them to her. As it turns out, she decided that cloth was too hard and sposies were easier. So, I ebayed some of them... I needed the money afterall. I actually felt a little guilty because I felt like I should be helping out another mama by giving them to her. But, I'm going to stick to selling most and give the rest that I have to a local charity.

Anyway... I'm more Libertarian than anything else, but my dh says that my ideas are very utopian. Less laws, less government, people helping each other, people doing what's right because it's right, communities taking responsibility for the people in them, etc.

Oh, and people buying a ton of cloth diapers... yeah... cloth.... definately.

:LOL

Teri
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#162 of 163 Old 01-04-2005, 12:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rising Sun
:LOL

This thread gets more and more interesting, and I am glad we had it.

My views are strange... and probably not popular in any way. But, I believe that if there is somebody selling an item, and somebody wanting to buy that item for the price it is being sold..... allrighty then... let them deal with each other. It's their item, their money.... and it benefits the market.

Here's the capitalist in me speaking.... When somebody has a lot of money to spend, and spends it on items such as expensive cloth diapers, it distributes the money to the smaller guys. Keeping the money distributed keeps the economy good. Hey... re-distribute the wealth! Keeping the smaller guy in business helps the gap between poor and rich shrink. My idea of an ideal world would be one where everybody has a job, because they want to contribute to society. Everybody is compensated fairly for that job, and those who hit hard times are helped out by their community. I see that a lot in the cloth diapering world. We hear of a wahm in hard times and we all pull together to help.

Anyway... if somebody has $70 to spend and wants to spend it on an Elbee, I would rather see that $70 go to hand made cloth diapers, and the money distributed to the smaller guys, than see the mama run to a large store (Gap, Gymboree, etc.) and spend it there. kwim?

Now, personally, I can't spend $70 on a diaper. I would go to a lesser known wahm that makes quality products. But, if the person wants that Elbee and is willing to pay for it.... let them. There are other good quality diapers out there.... plenty of them. So, I don't buy for a moment that it is the only option for this person.... must have elbee or child won't have diapers at all.... but again... it's not really my business.

My concern is seeing the smaller guys succeed and the economy improved by this success.

And in my own case, I had some of the coolest diapers. I had an FCB, a few ecobaby grow with me, a Fuz, a Little Lovies, a knickernappies, etc. All kinds of nice diapers. I saved them for my friend who has a baby that is over a year younger than Emily. So, when I didn't need them anymore, I was giving them to her. As it turns out, she decided that cloth was too hard and sposies were easier. So, I ebayed some of them... I needed the money afterall. I actually felt a little guilty because I felt like I should be helping out another mama by giving them to her. But, I'm going to stick to selling most and give the rest that I have to a local charity.

Anyway... I'm more Libertarian than anything else, but my dh says that my ideas are very utopian. Less laws, less government, people helping each other, people doing what's right because it's right, communities taking responsibility for the people in them, etc.

Oh, and people buying a ton of cloth diapers... yeah... cloth.... definately.

:LOL

Teri

Ah - VERY well put!! I totally agree with your entire thread.


BTW, there are more FCB AIOs on ebay today for those who want to participate in an innocent bidding war. :LOL (no, they are not mine )
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#163 of 163 Old 01-04-2005, 01:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jessicaSAR
...If I could be convinced that selling hyena diapers to the highest bidder would indeed raise the profile of small wahm made items thereby mitigating gender based income inequality, and enouraging small, local economies, and that these benefits outweigh the potentially harmful consequence of promoting an attitude of materialism and consumerism ...
I am not sure it would/could mitigate gender based income inequality, because the consumers who purchase diapers are also often victims of gender based income inequality, you know? Women buying from women, smaller pool of money to go around. Men buying from women, positive influx of money into the women pool, the pools become more equal. Maybe WAHMs should sell to male diaper perverts, :LOL .

Just a thought. I really know little to nothing about economic theories but this has been an interesting thread.
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