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#31 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 03:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by twindaze
Believe me, the big diaper making company does extensive safety testing on their products, I used to work for them. However, those studies probably haven't been published. FWIW, I didn't work on diapers, but we did safety test the products I worked on.
i'd just worry here about who's paying whom to have testing done...it's like when i read about environmental studies done by oil companies...and they find that environmental impacts either don't exist or ar minimal. yet non-involved parties can come up with many results saying the opposite. it's in the diapering companies best interest not to find anything wrong w/the gel in sposies, KWIM?

short-term safety doesn't mean as much to me as long term, sorry. sposies being used for just 30 years, isn't that long. besides, i see SO many people around my age (1st generation of sposied adults) with endometriosis NOW and yet the disease has been diagnosed (but in smaller numbers) since the 1930's. i just can't agree its coincidence. and i'm not gonna take the word of a diapering companies research on that, sorry.
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#32 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 04:01 PM
 
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I think that all moms are in search of validation for the choices they make (whether it is diapering or discipline) There are always going to be 2 sides of the story. In court systems there are aways 2 sides reporting their side. They take the same evidence and make it so it fits what they are trying to prove. So I am sure that all studies done by groups have 2 sides as well. Some are going to show that cloth diapering is the best and others will show sposies are "ok". You just have to pick and chose the battles that are the most important to you.

However, knowing how sacred cloth diapering is to the moms on this board, I am unsure why mommy2be (my sil ) decided to now come on and say that cloth and sposies are equal. I know that is her opinion and if that works for her family then great. Im sorry that you have had your feelings hurt by the moms here, but you should have known you would be in the line of fire. Most moms I have met on MDC are very strong in their convictions. You wouldnt want to go to the breastfeeding board and post that bfing moms are nuts and formula is the way to go, or go on the nutition board and say that Mcdonalds is the bomb, or go to nighttime parenting and sing the praises of CIO.

I fully support cloth diapering my dd and love it so much...I used sposies on my ds and am glad that I found a better option for my family. I only wish my family besides my ds(who loves cloth) supported what I do because most everyone thinks I am crazy. "Isnt it too much work?" "Dont you just want me to buy you some disposibles?" is what I hear most of the time.
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#33 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 04:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mommy2be
ok, SP (im going to call it that from now on) is the same exact gel that you get from the flower shop that they use as a waterlock to feed the flowers. it is nontoxic and safe for the environment. im sure ive got some mamas fuming, but this is the truth. the actual SP powder is nontoxic, but if its inhaled it can hurt the lungs (a lot like many other powders).
Hmm not sure if this what your talking about, but the green foam that flowers are put into, commonly known as Oasis, is known to cause cancer, In fact I have a box of it in my basement and there is a warning that it is known to cause cancer and to handle with care and not to inhale the dust. If your talking about the the little packets of stuff you add to the water to make flowers last longer, all that is a asprin type substance.

Don't mean to start a fight, I used to be a florist for 7 years. Back to lurking on bedrest.
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#34 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 04:56 PM
 
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Stacee, I used to work in a florist shop, too! Actually, my degree is in horticulture, and one of my specialties is floral design!

No, she's talking about the clear crystals that swell up when they get wet. They are marketed for growing houseplants, but some florist shops use them instead of Oasis or shaved styrofoam. It's also sold as an additive for potting soil to increase the water-holding capacity. Didn't know that about the Oasis, though. It just never ends, does it? :

Ok, back on topics, folks. Sorry.
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#35 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 05:14 PM
 
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Ohh ok , Vase fluff. I get it. LOL. I need to have this baby, it is draining all my brain power.
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#36 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 05:27 PM
 
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For me the bottom line is that they are chemicals and I don't want chemicals (whether or not they are seen as "safe") on my children's genitals.
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#37 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memory maker
However, knowing how sacred cloth diapering is to the moms on this board, I am unsure why mommy2be (my sil ) decided to now come on and say that cloth and sposies are equal. I know that is her opinion and if that works for her family then great.
ok, wow, i swore i wasnt going to come back on this thread simply because i didnt want to have to reply to everyone...first of all (carey)...that is totally not what i said. i never said they were equal...i was simply trying to tell people what the gel was that everyone was finding as so disgusting when laying a disposable diaper in a ton of water. and no, its not the same as the green florist oasis. i now have to go back and site my source i quoted..i forgot to do that. and then i will be sure to provide lots of links showing that the gel is totally safe. as far as dioxin, no--its absolutely not safe. i never said it was, however, *I* feel that disposables are fine and safe for my son, they work easiest for us..and like i said numerous times, i think cloth is wonderful, and i admire the mamas that do it full time (im pretty sure i said that too) and as far as the plastic parts of diapers being safe for the environment, no, of course theyre not...and there is actually a new place in california working on making a recycling system work for sposies...that will be wonderful. (and yes, i'll post a few links for that too since no one seems to believe ive done my research)

anyways--of course cloth is cheaper, and disposing of it is better for the environment. i dont think the manufacturing of it is necessarily better than the manufacturing of sposies...and yes, i'll be sure to find my resources and post them.

i cant even remember now how everyone else on here misread what my point of starting this thread was....now to go site the source i quoted and list some more resources for those that for some reason arent believing that the gel is safe....cant you just google it? or, go buy some at your garden center? the only part of it that isnt safe, like i have stated before, is the actual powder form, and its still NON toxic, but if you inhale it, its dangerous, just like tons of other powders....

geez, im exhausted. gotta get my sources now...
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#38 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 07:41 PM
 
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Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (as I haven't read all responses), but my beef with disposables is *directly* related to the sodium polyacrylate gel and its' effects on human skin. Even though it is non-toxic, it is also a very very powerful moisture-absorber......and will draw the moisture right out of a tender baby's skin, leaving small red dot-like sores. I don't call that perfectly harmless at all.
Apparently, not all babies are prone to this type of reaction, but I've seen it happen often enough (and you should see the shock on the mama's face when you inforn her that it's those itty bitty gel beads doing the damage) that I'm convinced that the stuff is not good for use around human skin for long periods of time.
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#39 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 07:49 PM
 
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now to go site the source i quoted and list some more resources for those that for some reason arent believing that the gel is safe
Non-toxic and safe sare not the same thing. Nobody in this thread is saying that SP is toxic but a few of use are saying that it is definately not safe.

Why don't you google sodium polyacrylate MSDS and see what it says about contact with skin. Of course the MSDS says it is non toxic but there would be no MSDS if it were SAFE.
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#40 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 07:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy2be
ok, ...i was simply trying to tell people what the gel was that everyone was finding as so disgusting when laying a disposable diaper in a ton of water. as far as dioxin, no--its absolutely not safe. i never said it was, however, *I* feel that disposables are fine and safe for my son, they work easiest for us..
I understand your original intent was simply to inform everybody what the gel was. That's great. But, as many mamas have already stated, there is a huge difference between 'non-toxic' and 'safe to have on your bum 24-7 for 2-3 years'.

And what is considered non-toxic now can be changed, again, as many mamas already stated (lead, asbestos, etc). Many of the mamas on these boards, by nature, attempt to avoid potentially harmful chemicals in as many ways as possible. So yes, you're going to get defensive mamas. Most mamas want to tread lightly on the planet and live as naturally as possible. Disposables just aren't natural.

If you want to use them for your son, that is fine. Nobody is saying you can't. In fact, as stated, many mamas have used disposables from time to time. Most mamas on here don't. Because, again, most mamas by nature that visit MDC are going for a natural approach (hence MDC's claim of being "THE Natural Family Living Community").

I think many mamas are already poked and prodded in real life about their choices to use cloth. They don't want to defend their choices here as well.

My two cents

Judy, wife to my Catholic deacon husband ... homeschooling mother to my four girls, a boy, and someone new in May '15! Forever remembering our loss (8/11) .
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#41 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i am now deleting my posts because first of all, no one is even understanding me....second of all, im obviously upsetting people by simply stating a fact, third of all, people are thinking im saying cloth is bad, its not..and i TOTALLY support my sil who uses and loves cloth, ive never heard anyone say she was crazy for doing so... and fourth of all, i dont have the time to sit here and defend my posts to those who arent following. so, now you can all go enjoy your day and stop getting upset at this thread, because im deleting it.

and yes, i do think SP is safe, not just non-toxic, on my ds's bum. he doesnt get rashes, although he has from detergent ive used on his cloth, which i switched, and he is now fine in them....

anyways--do i think cloth is great? YES
do i think sposies are safe? yes also
do i think theyre equal? no, did i ever say i did? no

do i also try to get rid of many harmful chemicals that my son may come in contact with? yes, do i buy all organic for him? yes, do i use natural cleansers? yes, etc etc etc....

do i choose to battle with sposies? no, i was not intending this thread in the way people have taken it. moms were freaking out about all the gel they could make come out of a sposie...i was simply saying what that was....

ok...i have got to go play with my babe now. peace and grace to all---sooooooo sorry for offending people, i am now leaving this board for good, too many angry mamas i come into contact with too often. i guess im just hyper-sensitive.
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#42 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 09:13 PM
 
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I always love when people come and state 'facts' that stir up controversy and then backpeddle their way out of MDC because they don't get a warm reception. I don't see any of the earlier responses as evidence of anger, but of passion and concern for the health and safety of their children.

I'm not quite sure what kind of understanding for 'facts' about sposie gel one might have hoped to find on a natural family living board forum for those who use cloth. Focusuing on sp is a bit short-sighted and certainly not even one of the reasons I chose cloth. Certainly wouldn't convince me that sposies weren't so bad knowing that it's been factually stated that it's non-toxic or that one or a dozen or three dozen people's kids haven't had rashes from it. Not a chance I'm willing to take. And even if sposies were made out of organic/recycled paper , I would stilll not diaper my baby in something that clogs up landfills and is thus detrimental to the enviroment.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy2be
i am now deleting my posts because first of all, no one is even understanding me....second of all, im obviously upsetting people by simply stating a fact, third of all, people are thinking im saying cloth is bad, its not..and i TOTALLY support my sil who uses and loves cloth, ive never heard anyone say she was crazy for doing so... and fourth of all, i dont have the time to sit here and defend my posts to those who arent following. so, now you can all go enjoy your day and stop getting upset at this thread, because im deleting it.

and yes, i do think SP is safe, not just non-toxic, on my ds's bum. he doesnt get rashes, although he has from detergent ive used on his cloth, which i switched, and he is now fine in them....

anyways--do i think cloth is great? YES
do i think sposies are safe? yes also
do i think theyre equal? no, did i ever say i did? no

do i also try to get rid of many harmful chemicals that my son may come in contact with? yes, do i buy all organic for him? yes, do i use natural cleansers? yes, etc etc etc....

do i choose to battle with sposies? no, i was not intending this thread in the way people have taken it. moms were freaking out about all the gel they could make come out of a sposie...i was simply saying what that was....

ok...i have got to go play with my babe now. peace and grace to all---sooooooo sorry for offending people, i am now leaving this board for good, too many angry mamas i come into contact with too often. i guess im just hyper-sensitive.

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#43 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 11:49 PM
 
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Dioxin has been determined to be so toxic that there is no amount of it that is considered a safe level.

And I guess I'll be the first to say this: from what I have read, I believe sodium polyacrylate to be not only unsafe, but also, yes, toxic. I'd spend the time to dig up references, but there doesn't seem to be much point now.

Also, it boggles my mind that anyone could think that the manufacture of disposables has no greater environmental impact than the manufacture of cloth diapers.

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#44 of 57 Old 02-18-2005, 11:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jennyriver

short-term safety doesn't mean as much to me as long term, sorry. sposies being used for just 30 years, isn't that long. besides, i see SO many people around my age (1st generation of sposied adults) with endometriosis NOW and yet the disease has been diagnosed (but in smaller numbers) since the 1930's. i just can't agree its coincidence. and i'm not gonna take the word of a diapering companies research on that, sorry.
FWIW, I also have endometriosis and was totally cloth diapered. I was breastfed too. These big companies do have an incentive to test products properly, they have deep pockets, look what happened to Dow over the whole silicone implant thing.
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#45 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 12:24 AM
 
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I am sorry Jenny, I disagree. It is all a cost/benefit/risk analyses, that wins in favor of profits, not people. It goes like this...

Studies showing that their product will harm people will hurt sales costing, say, 8 bil. Having no studies and then having to pay off plaintiffs that sued after being hurt by their product, will say cost, 25 mil. Bottom line wins, lets go forward! It is less expensive to just pay off the people they hurt than to hurt their sales! Sounds evil and wrong and crazy, but it happens...look at the cig industry. They actually have people that do this. As a former lawyer that worked at an "asbestos firm"(representing companies like dow, and corning), I have become VERY cynical of lotsa big company politics! They will hold off for as long as possible before admitting that a product hurt people and pulling it off of the shelfs. They will knowingly harm people and just pay them off to keep the sales up.

THis is why I try to NEVER depend on a big company when my babies health is at stake. Trust Pampers? NO! Case point: On the answer section of Pampers website, they emphatically state that their diapers have NO dioxin. That is a flat out lie. The proof: It is impossible to avoid creating dioxins when you use chlorine to bleach paper and pulp-it's just a natural byproduct! And, when Sweden banned dioxin, Pampers had to close down a plant, and open up a new one where they did not use chlorine. There, they sell diapers that have not been bleached with chlorine. They actually have diff diapers, made differently, that they sell over there! Hmmmm...why would pampers have to go to the trouble of doing this if their diapers did not contain dioxin, and wouldn't it be nice if we could get these chlorine free diapers here in the states? Oh yeah, too much $, your baby is not worth it.
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#46 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 12:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GeorgiaGalHeidi
I am sorry Jenny, I disagree. It is all a cost/benefit/risk analyses, that wins in favor of profits, not people. It goes like this...
(
To be fair, I'm sure that it varies from company to company. And the diaper manufacturers depend upon their suppliers to test the raw materials anyway. Most consumer products are made with raw materials from other manufacturers. I'm quite sure that what you are saying does happen but having worked in R&D at several companies I know that the research and regulatory people definitely seriously consider the safety of their products. That's not to say that management couldn't pressure these folks and/or override them of course.

IMO any safety issues with SP would be related to any unreacted monomer that is left after the polymer is formed. And of course there will always be some monomer trapped, no way around that. Monomers can be dangerous. I don't know much about this particular one though. Polymers tend to be unreactive however. Just my Chemist perspective. As I said before, I think that there are many reasons to cloth diaper but for me, this is not one of them. Aside from the grossness factor, we used to have Huggies burst open and leave "pee balls" all over the place.
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#47 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 12:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twindaze
FWIW, I also have endometriosis and was totally cloth diapered. I was breastfed too. These big companies do have an incentive to test products properly, they have deep pockets, look what happened to Dow over the whole silicone implant thing.

now, i didn't say endo was ONLY cause by dioxin or sposies. we're all exposed to it, and at greater levels now than ever in history, so your endo could still have come from dioxin. my personal theory is that each individual reacts differently to different chemicals - you and i probably have a certain predisposition to endo (just like some people are more prone to cancer) and maybe a sensitivity to dioxin. knowing that dioxin is DIRECTLY linked to endo (not causing it in all individuals and not being the sole cause either, but still linked to it) why would ANYONE who has suffered with it risk exposing their child to the same chemicals that increase one's chances of developing it? especially since there is also a genetic link and we most likely have passed the risk on to our daughters...without even compounding it with dioxin?

case in point: a well known endo study was done on orangutangs - an animal that does NOT develop endometriosis naturally. they were exposed to high levels of dioxin. they later developed endometriosis. now, they didn't expose them by using sposies of course but the point it that yes, all of us will come into contact with plenty of dioxin that we can't control in our lifetimes. if limiting our exposure can eliminate or at least reduce our chances of developing endo, don't we owe that to our children? and direct contact with our genitals is not really what i consider limiting exposure!
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#48 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 12:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyriver
now, i didn't say endo was ONLY cause by dioxin or sposies. we're all exposed to it, and at greater levels now than ever in history, so your endo could still have come from dioxin. my personal theory is that each individual reacts differently to different chemicals - you and i probably have a certain predisposition to endo (just like some people are more prone to cancer) and maybe a sensitivity to dioxin. knowing that dioxin is DIRECTLY linked to endo (not causing it in all individuals and not being the sole cause either, but still linked to it) why would ANYONE who has suffered with it risk exposing their child to the same chemicals that increase one's chances of developing it? especially since there is also a genetic link and we most likely have passed the risk on to our daughters...without even compounding it with dioxin?
And my endo could have been caused by something besides dioxins too. Who knows for sure?

As far as worrying about endo in my daughters, I wish I could! I have all boys, 4 of them.
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#49 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 01:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by twindaze
And my endo could have been caused by something besides dioxins too. Who knows for sure?

As far as worrying about endo in my daughters, I wish I could! I have all boys, 4 of them.
LOL, i saw that after i posted....so, OK...take it as "our" collective daughters
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#50 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 10:45 AM
 
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Oh yeah, I hear ya-I don't think all companies are evil, LOL, just some that have the bad track record-makes me synical!
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#51 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 10:59 AM
 
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I'll never understand why someone will come to MDC, post something they know is going to be controversial, and then get their feelings hurt when a discussion starts. I don't think anyone was rude, people simply stated their concerns and thus the reason they still use cloth. I don't get the big deal ... I mean, posting something like this, you had to know that was going to happen?!

Anyway, regardless of the chemicals ... disposable diapers fill up our landfills and ARE NOT biodegradable. I recycle glass, paper and plastic ... why would I throw away 10+ diapers a day that are STILL going to be sitting there in the landfill when ALex has children??

I don't think sposies are the devil. I do think there is a better option, and I don't think you'll get much sposie support at MDC where the emphasis is on NATURAL family living. Meaning most of us care not only about chemicals, but about doing what is best for our environment as well.

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#52 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 11:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mistymama
I'll never understand why someone will come to MDC, post something they know is going to be controversial, and then get their feelings hurt when a discussion starts. I don't think anyone was rude, people simply stated their concerns and thus the reason they still use cloth. I don't get the big deal ... I mean, posting something like this, you had to know that was going to happen?!
I think that such posters (I hesitate to use the T word) desire and expect all of us to say "Gee, I didn't know that!! Thanks!!!!! "

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#53 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 01:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sustainer
I think that such posters (I hesitate to use the T word) desire and expect all of us to say "Gee, I didn't know that!! Thanks!!!!! "
Maybe? But geeze, they should know better! We've all done our research and have our reasons for using cloth. Finding out that someone's friend's dh says SP is non-toxic is not going to change many minds. :LOL

It's not like I go to mainstream boards and tell all the sposie users how they are putting toxic chemicals on their babies bums, or filling our landfills at an alarming rate. It wouldn't be received well! Just as posting about sposies on a board dominated by cd'ing Moms isn't going to go over well either!

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#54 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 03:13 PM
 
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I think the troll is full now lol!!!
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#55 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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seriously---i dont even know what to say to everyone. i am not a freaking troll--- simply because i stated a FACT that sp is not toxic everyone on here got all crazy saying i said sposies and cloth are the equal, sposies are best, etc etc. NEVER did any such thing come out of my mouth. i deleted my posts because my sil got a little mean in her response to me, (she also obviously misread my post) *not sure how that happened, i guess mamas must think that sp and dioxin are the same thing, which i NEVER once stated...i also said continuously that dioxin is toxic and horrible, i also stated that we do a lot of natural family living things, cd'ing full time just isnt one of them, and so i guess that makes me an inferior mama to you all.
i, however, dont believe that. i also dont believe how people couldnt believe i would even post such a thread at mdc. seriously--i was stating what the gel was, a simple fact, and for everyone that doesnt believe me, just do a google for sp, or go to a library, etc. and look for yourselves. did i say that sposies were wonderful? NO...i have stated this many, many times and that is why i deleted my posts. i wasnt "backing down" etc. i was simply deleting them to avoid further conflict with my sil. i refuse to fight over cloth diapers, doesnt seem like a reason for conflict with family to me.

anyways--im glad you all got to have a ball bashing me and calling me a troll. however, like i stated before a few times, i am honestly now leaving. so yes, your "troll" is gone.

god bless you all, i hope you can find peace w/in yourselves to forgive a crazy troll. ???????? geez mamas.
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#56 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 04:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mommy2be
everyone on here got all crazy saying i said sposies and cloth are the equal, sposies are best, etc etc. NEVER did any such thing come out of my mouth.
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i guess mamas must think that sp and dioxin are the same thing, which i NEVER once stated...i also said continuously that dioxin is toxic and horrible
Quote:
did i say that sposies were wonderful? NO...i have stated this many, many times
You have clarified these things several times, yet I don't remember anyone saying that you said sposies and cloth are equal, or sposies are best, or sp and dioxin are the same thing, or dioxin isn't toxic or horrible, or sposies are wonderful.

Quote:
i also stated that we do a lot of natural family living things, cd'ing full time just isnt one of them
The aspect of natural family living that is discussed in this particular sub-forum, though, is cloth diapering.

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so i guess that makes me an inferior mama to you all.
No one said that, either. In fact, several people have said that using disposables does not make someone an inferior parent.

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im glad you all got to have a ball bashing me and calling me a troll.
We ALL called you a troll? Most of the posts in this thread have been directed at the substance of what you said, not at you personally.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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#57 of 57 Old 02-19-2005, 04:58 PM
 
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Elise, I think you are taking this way too personal. First of all, you started getting upset and no one had done anything except for talk about why they still don't feel safe with SP, or Dioxin. I can't see where anyone said they were the same, nor can I see where anyone said you thought sposies were the same as cloth. AND CERTAINLY, no one said you were inferior for using sposies part time ... in fact, several of us, me included, said we don't think sposies are evil ... just not the choice for us.

I'm not sure why this is such a big deal. You posted about SP, I think a pretty interesting discussion followed, but now you are upset about that discussion. I don't think anyone personally attacked you, or said you are not as good of a mama because you use sposies. All anyone said was why they continue to question the safety of SP and why they choose to use cloth still.

Candacepeace.gif, Married to dh   guitar.gif, Mom to ds (8) biggrinbounce.gif , Gavin candle.gif (9/30/10 - 12/19/10) and cautiously expecting our rainbow1284.gif 4-29-12

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