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Old 02-18-2005, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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deleting.....
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:29 AM
 
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Sodium Polyacrylate is not the only objectionable chemical in sposies. It has been implicated in the TSS outbreak and is no longer used in tampons, why would I want it near my child's genitals. Have you seen the MSDS sheet for SP? But there is also Dioxin a by product of the bleaching process which is EXTREMELY toxic AND carcinogenic.

I used sposies exclusively on my ds because I didn't know there was an alternative other than Gerber prefolds and pins and plastic pants. With dd I did a lot of research, and I CHOOSE to use cloth. I still use sposies rarely if necessary, but I don't feel comfortable using them now.

I'm sure many mamas will have more info on the other health and environmental concerns with sposies.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:32 AM
 
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Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-18-2005, 02:33 AM
 
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I was in a science group in high school that went around to the elementaries doing 'magic' science tricks. One of mine involved SP -- pouring water from one styrafoam cup to another, then turning the second cup upside down with *gasp* no water coming out (this thrills little kids.. it was fun). Of course the second cup had SP at the bottom, absorbing the liquid (there was enough powder that the bit of water poured in would become quite solid and not come out).

Phew... now that you see my inner geekiness... ... For me, using cloth goes far beyond the gel beads (which really are gross... I don't want that by my babe's bum).

There's a much different philosophy with sposies with the general public (Luvs' 'holding back the Hoover Dam' is a perfect example... dipes should be changed when they are wet -- not tested to see how much they can hold)... and then of course environmental impact and.. heck, cloth is FUN for us (well me at least, dh doesn't mind cloth but isn't near as excited as I am )!!!

Judy, wife to my Catholic deacon husband ... homeschooling mother to my four girls, a boy, and someone new in May '15! Forever remembering our loss (8/11) .
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:38 AM
 
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Yep, the dioxin in sposies was what first got me interested in cloth.

I also wanted to add that a big part of the environmental issue is the chemicals used in the manufacturing of sposies. I'm sure some mamas have info on this that I don't have onhand right now.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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deleting because i dont have time to continue explaining myself....sorry to offend...
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:43 AM
 
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In addition to what the above posters have mentioned, there are additional additives like the smelly perfume they add. Now that I know am more knowledgeable about what is in the regular sposie there is no way on Earth another one will ever touch my dd's tush. On the rare occasion we have used a sposie we only use Tushies. Besides the chemicals, I fully agree with what Holli said about the environmental impact of sposies. In fact, when we switched to cloth it made me think and change many other ways how we lived in our house.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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deleting..
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennisee
I also wanted to add
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy2be
i just also wanted to add...
Oh, this is one of THOSE threads. I was trying to be polite, but I see this thread is going to get nasty.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:57 AM
 
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yes, i know there have been claims that there may be *trace* amounts of dioxin left from the bleaching process in sposies.
Dioxin "has been classified by the World Health Organization as a Class 1 Carcinogen (which means it is a known human carcinogen). Dioxin is a by-product of the paper bleaching process and the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) says that skin rashes, liver damage, weight loss, and a reduction in the effectiveness of the immune system have all been attributed to human exposure of dioxins."

Sorry but even a *trace* of Dioxin is too much for me when I consider that babies are constantly in a diaper (wet or dry) for the first 2-3+ years of their lives.
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:05 AM
 
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i don't know what's in them. All I know is what they do to Emma's bum when she wears them. Bad rash! I have the same problem with feminine pads. THat's I went with cloth. And I'm glas I did, because it does affect her like it does me.

Jessica, mama to Emma, 7, Mattie, 5.5 and Lilly, 3 and someone new this Halloween-ish.

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Old 02-18-2005, 03:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy2be
yes, i know there have been claims that there may be *trace* amounts of dioxin left from the bleaching process in sposies. since the diapers come into contact with the genitals, and some people worry about potential reproductive cancers...currently, there is no evidence that this is the case.
Considering that sposies have only been in widespread use for around 30 years there will still be some time before reproductive cancers associated with the use of disposable diapers is proven.

And yet there is more to worry about than just SP and dioxin.

Quote:
One study, conducted by Anderson Laboratories in 1999 and published in the Archives of Environmental Health, found that disposable diapers do release chemicals called volatile organic compounds (VOCs), including toluene, ethylbenzene, xylene and dipentene. All of these VOCs have been shown to have toxic health effects, such as cancer and brain damage, with long-term or high level exposure.
http://www.checnet.org/healthehouse/...sp?Main_ID=554

Quote:
Another study by Anderson Laboratories, a private corporation, monitored mice with pneumotachographs while they breathed emissions from three brands of disposable diapers and one brand of cloth diapers. The Anderson’s report outlined the specific measures taken by the scientists while performing the test. The scientists experiment resulted in the conclusion that certain brands of disposable diapers emit mixtures of chemicals that are toxic to the respiratory tract and that disposable diapers should be considered as one of the factors that may exacerbate or cause asthma. Further studies are needed to determine whether the use of certain types of disposable diapers is associated with childhood respiratory illnesses.
http://pages.ivillage.com/carosyrup/...ecisions1.html

I have more to add but the baby is waking.
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:40 AM
 
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Elise, I do understand where you are coming from. We all have to make benefit/risk assessments every day, and there are times when we have to choose the riskier option b/c we simply cannot implement the more beneficial option. But, just b/c I am surrounded by chemicals everywhere does not mean that I should throw in the towel and give up. (But, I guess my signature probably gave away how I felt about that.) I do what I can to minimize my DD's exposure, and for me, switching to cloth (after 7 months in sposies) was a very easy step to implement. Other steps have not been as easy, but I'm working on it...
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:50 AM
 
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I am also aware of some studies which show that the lack on breathability of disposable diapers raises the temp in male testes and may be linked to later reproductive issues...

Also, the environmental impact is clear.... it is a simple matter of one time use versus reusable items even if manufacture and processing are ruffly equal in impact... plus many of us choose organic fabrics which are grown without pesticides and do not comtain chemicals...

Disposables also pose a serious environmental hazard when the poopy contents are not flushed as is instructed on the packaging...

Plus, who wants to wear paper 24/7! Do you know of any adults who chose paper underwear :LOL

too late to think of more...

Jen

Jen Wife to Jason and Mom to Cassidy 10y Malcolm8y & Lucas 5y
living in Canada and Costa Rica and slowly exploring the world
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Old 02-18-2005, 10:36 AM
 
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To the OP-I know what you are saying...my dh basically says the same, and I do not think you are evil for sharing that mama.

Here is my beef with the stuff;

1. Saying that its chemical properties are safe is not the same thing as determining that it is safe for human use. This theory has been proven time and time again from real life experience(asbestos, X-ray, radiation, lead). All of these things were used with or in close proximity to humans after chemists, and other science minded folks, determined their properties were safe. However, how these chemicals or elements actually effected humans was determined later, much to the disappointment of several, right?
SP has only been used on human babies for the last 20 years or so, so to me, the effects on humans has really yet to be determined. Afterall, again, think about this...asbestos were around for a while before we starting using them, and everyone conculded they were non-toxic, their properties atleast. HOwever, after use involving humans, it became clear, several years later, that they were infact not so harmless to us afterall. How long did it take us to ban lead paint? KWIM? Who knows, the stuff may end up being totally fine and safe, but if there is any question at all, which I think there is considering we have not used it on babies for a real long period of time, then why even chance it? The research in this area is incomplete. Was it linked to TSS? Maybe. Maybe not. Is it linked to future male infertility? Maybe. Maybe not. I have looked into the studies and the theories on it, and I have concluded that there is not a clear answer really either way, but only a possible risk, a possible connection, and I do not want to use my child as the determining guinea pig.

2. Why use any chemcials at all if you do not have to? Sure, it may be harmless and useful to plants, but so is a ammonia. However, I am not going to use ammonia on my son.

All in all, it just does not make sense to me. I find it weird that we would use, albeit even a safe, gel on our babies when we can use regular old cotton.

Anyhow, again, there is a big diff between saying an element or chemical's properties are harmless and then concluding that it is safe for human use. Just ask your DH to look into asbestos and lead. At one point, a chemist like him, concluded that these things would be safe because their properties seemed harmless. It was only later that they discovered that they were harmful to us!
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Old 02-18-2005, 10:39 AM
 
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Oh yes, ITA with trishack-the asthma thing is clear IMO-no guesses there. Alot of Pulmonologists and Resp. therapists will recc not using these when your baby has a resp illness or problem-that to me is enough. Who wants an irritant in your precious babies young lungs?
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy2be
i think cloth is wonderful, but soooo many mamas on here are so judgemental towards sposie users....i just wanted to share a little info...
Sticking my nose in (no suprise to people who know me IRL! :LOL)... I appreciate mommy2be's intent. I think it's great that so many mamas choose to CD- I CD too.

BUT I also think it's good to be supportive of each other here, even if other mamas don't make the same choices we make. Some mamas choose to use sposies, or have to use them even if they'd rather not. We've had a few threads about mamas using sposies and most of them felt badly already, they don't need others to make them feel worse.

Each mama makes decisions based on what's best for her own family, and IMO, the rest of us should respect those choices, and either support them or at least avoid criticizing each other. Shouldn't a community of friends be there for each other all the time, not just when we agree?
Sorry, off the now! I hope I didn't offend anyone, please don't me!
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:22 PM
 
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I can't pretend to know a whole lot about the science of cloth, but what Heidi said is basically where I'm at on disposables (and vaccines, too, incidentally) - we haven't been doing it long enough to be sure that it's safe, and I'd prefer not to have my kids be guinea pigs.

Amy, I see what you're saying - and it's great to try and patch it all up - but honestly most of us feel very strongly about cloth diapering. I don't think we do a lot of flaming of people who post here, even if they are sposie users or part time sposie users. Heck, I use them sometimes (though I hate doing it) and I have never felt judged here about that. If someone is going to post here about why they think disposable diapers are an okay choice, then we have the right to discuss it and defend our choice of cloth in a tactful and kind manner. I think that's all that's happened here.
I do appreciate Elise's bravery and also the facts that she's presenting - I'm sure there's truth to what she's saying. But there's also truth to the studies that say disposable diapers are not 100% safe.

And fwiw, many of us do not use cotton diapers because of the chemicals used on cotton. We use hemp or organic cotton.

I know I can't keep my children safe from all chemical exposure, but I'm definitely going to try my best to shield them from everything that is within my power to control, like formula, disposable diapers, and vaccines.
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:25 PM
 
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OK I will stick my neck out too...

I think that the OP is correct in saying that the SP is considered non-toxic. That's a fact, or as close as science and our culture can get to one. And I don't think she is saying people should use disposables, or dissing cloth users.

I think her idea in posting might be something like, if you want to tell people that they should not use disposables, you should use arguments that are scientifically supportable. (I hope I am not putting words in her mouth!)

There are plenty of good reasons to use cloth, of course. I kind of wonder why everyone gets their hackles up so much when sposies are not dismissed as disgusting and toxic...?
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:35 PM
 
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I have no problem with the gel beads (besides the fact they are nasty when they get in the genital area)

My problem with sposies is that they are NOT biodegradable. They will be sitting in our landfills for the next 100+ years, not to mention the ground water contamination issue if people don't flush the poop (which most sposie users don't)

Dioxin is also a major concern for me.

The chemicals used and released in the production of sposies are also a major concern.

Now I'm not a "all sposies are evil" gal, and I even let my Mom use sposies on Alex when she watches him (although I try to buy the Tushies brand, sometimes she uses her own Huggies)

But there is no way I could feel good about using sposies full time because they ARE bad for the environment. Period.

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Old 02-18-2005, 02:07 PM
 
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I read something similar to emmalala in the original post. I read a note that the current science considers SP to be non-toxic. I think it needs to be taken in context of the another thread which was talking about SP and made it sound like SP was toxic.

I agree that whether or not SP is toxic there are other great reasons to use cloth, but I don't really think that's where the original poster was going with this topic.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:27 PM
 
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While I do not know if anyone has called SP toxic, it is not safe IMO. The MSDS for SP says to avoid contact with skin and to wash skin continuously for 15 minutes if it comes in contact. Just because something is not toxic doesn't mean it should be on your butt 24/7.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:33 PM
 
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That's interesting. Thanks for posting the info.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:34 PM
 
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Well, I need to actually see the studies. What kind of studies were done? Were they done on children with exposures typical to 24 hour diapering? When were they done? How long did they track the exposures? There are lots of things that are not harmful in single small exposures, that when multiplied and combined with other exposures can become harmful.

So post me some linkies so we can have a real discussion.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:46 PM
 
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I agree that there are so many good reasons to use cloth (mostly cost and environmental for me) that the SP issue is not relevant to me. I don't think it's toxic either, but I do think that cloth is a better way to go for all of the other reasons.

Believe me, the big diaper making company does extensive safety testing on their products, I used to work for them. However, those studies probably haven't been published. FWIW, I didn't work on diapers, but we did safety test the products I worked on.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:59 PM
 
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Jessica, that is the problem IMO-there really aren't any studies like this...this stuff has not be adequately studied the way that it is currently being used.
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaGalHeidi
Jessica, that is the problem IMO-there really aren't any studies like this...this stuff has not be adequately studied the way that it is currently being used.
I agree. This a such a problem with drugs as well as chemical exposures. Studies are done, but not necessarily on all the populations that will be using them. One of the things they have found with chemical exposures is that they often impact children differently because they effect development, and brain chemistry is different in developing children than in full grown adults ( I am no expert here but I have worked on children's environmental heath policy stuff, so I am familiar with many of these studies).

And, the amounts studied often do not take into account the smaller size of children. So the exposure is greater in someone who weighs 8 lbs, v. someone who weighs 180 lbs.

And, this gel stuff has not been around long enough to do adequate studies.

No offense to Elise, but I am not going to take the word of someone's best friend's dh. I think if you have done alot of research, I would like to see what you have researched.
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Old 02-18-2005, 04:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy2be
yes, i know there have been claims that there may be *trace* amounts of dioxin left from the bleaching process in sposies. since the diapers come into contact with the genitals, and some people worry about potential reproductive cancers...currently, there is no evidence that this is the case.

but also, like judy said, diapers are made to be changed...not sit on babys bum for hours after theyre wet...i change my ds at least every hour and a half...
most mamas i know of who CD use UNbleached cotton, organic cotton fibers and/or hemp. and as we have seen in many previous posts (and IRL), not as many mamas are as diligent about changing as you are!

there HAVE been studies, though, that directly link dioxin to endometriosis, which i personally suffer from. since it is also genetically linked (although not in my case - only my cousin and i suffer from it, coincidentally(?) being the 1st generation of sposie diapered babies in our family) i would never put anything with "trace" amounts of a known toxic substance on my DD. why play russian roulette with her future reproductive health? i also plan on serving her no meat for some time, if at all, and then only organic. same with dairy. as for breastmilk, i'm aware of the trace amounts that can be present but still must do the best i can for my baby - the alternative (formula) is no better. i also have switched to ONLY environmentally friendly cleaning products. i even try and dress her in as many organic fibers as i can.

my point: i try to reduce or eliminate where and when i can, not just toss my hands up in the air to say, "oh well, might as well just add more to the already unavoidable toxins in our environment"

i appreciate your knowledge on the subject and don't think you were being nasty at all. what you have to understand though, is that if you use sposies, you use the WHOLE diaper, not just the gel. so, while your original statement that gel isn't so bad may or may not be true, it doesn't then follow that sposies aren't so bad either. other than dioxin and any other chemical releases (from bleached cotton in sposies or any plastic parts) that occur in landfills, the gel in sposies only makes the diaper bulkier as it absorbs fluid. so, that tiny diaper you throw in the trash will expand exponentially when it hit the landfill, reducing space. now, you've thrown human waste (actually illegal because of how detrimental it is, but not enforced) into a landfill which most likely, will leak out of that diaper. if the landfill has any leaks (as is happening right now in my own town, with many reisdents private wells being tainted and them actually requiring bottled water) surrounding water sources are in danger of being poisoned. and then of course is the fact that diapers are made w/non-renewable resources...even if you firmly believe that the process of making or chemical release of sposies vs. cloth is equal, you can't argue that doing it time and time again for sposies is better than the minimal times it's done for cloth. if my cloth diaper and your sposie diaper contain the same amount of bad chemicals, non-renewable resources, etc...at bare minimum, my diaper is better because it is the first and last time it needs to be made. your diapers must be made over and over and over and over again.

not to be sarcastic, but would you seriously think of ingesting that gel or feeding it to your children because of claims it is "safe"? animals drink it? you can put it in flowers? my child and i are neither!

"not that bad" isn't good enough for me and my family, sorry. but i do appreciate what you're trying to say, and can tell you're being sincere and nice about it...i just find fault in the reasoning.
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Old 02-18-2005, 04:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trishshack
While I do not know if anyone has called SP toxic, it is not safe IMO. The MSDS for SP says to avoid contact with skin and to wash skin continuously for 15 minutes if it comes in contact. Just because something is not toxic doesn't mean it should be on your butt 24/7.
THAT's a really great point!
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