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#1 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm starting a new thread, cutting and pasting my reply to a poster on the "EC, have you tried it?" thread.. since that was getting sooooo long!

Here's the link and here's my response:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...727#post421727

--------------------------
EC and AP
Attachment Parenting is about responding to your baby's needs, believing that their cries mean something, and getting in tune with the needs on an intuitive level. (This is my sorta definition, let me know if you disagree)

Taking the *other side* of this first, I believe that diaper-training is NOT AP because you are not responding to the child's inherent need to eliminate and not soil themselves. Instead, you are providing a place for the child to pee and poop that is held on their body, and (often) is left on them for (sometimes) hours at a time. The frequent topic of absorbancy comes up here... what we're saying in effect is "how long can I get avoid changing the dirty diaper... how much pee can I pack into it".

I believe Elimination Communication, or Natural Infant Hygiene, is AP because at it's most basic, it is responding and being in tune with your child's needs. Just as mothers who practice AP will nurse their children when they need to nurse, and not on a schedule, so EC mothers respond to their child's need to eliminate as it happens, using a combination of intuition, communication and timing (like knowing that they usually pee after getting up from a nap).

Also, Attachment Parenting means to me, things that naturally flow from being human.... things that fit with our biological nature. Because EC was the ONLY thing available to mamas from the beginning of time, because it is *still* practiced all over the world by more "primitive" peoples, and because diapers are a modern invention of convenience, I believe it is biologically what babies are conditioned to expect.

I would further turn around your statement "why would someone want to do this" and "what is the benefit to baby" with "Why would someone want to diaper-train their baby" and "What is the benefit to baby of using diapers?".

It's a real paradigm shift, I'll admit. Most women today don't even know that this is what women have been doing for bazillions of years, all over the globe, so the possibility of something other than diapers wouldn't have occured to them.

Thanks for asking the question.. I'm sure many other mamas out there are thinking the same thing.

blessings!

Ahleemah
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#2 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 07:52 PM
 
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I totally agree! I am really wanting to ec Sam(We tried at around 2 weeks, and were successful a lot, but have been having marital problems, and H just moved out...this was something that fell to the waistside). I have some questions though.

Sam is three months old, and I'm not familiar with his cues. He pees a lot while sleeping, how do I approach this?

He also pees, and poops while nursing, should I break the nursing to go to the bathroom, or just cue him while he's nursing?

I probably have lots more, but will ask later.

TIA

Single mama to Alex(13), Maddy(12), Sam(8), Violet(6), and Ruby(3). fly-by-nursing1.gif
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#3 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 08:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ahleemah
The frequent topic of absorbancy comes up here... what we're saying in effect is "how long can I get avoid changing the dirty diaper... how much pee can I pack into it".
While I agree with most of your premise, I think this statement overgeneralizes more than a little bit! My goal with absorbency is to keep from wetting her clothes, the rug, the furniture, other people's clothes, whatever. I watch for her signals and we change whenever I know that she's wet or likely to want to sit on the potty. We certainly are not letting her sit in pee! Gross!
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#4 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 09:26 PM
 
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I'm definitely going to be studying this subject between now and when I have my next baby (still ttc). One question I have, do EC-ers use diapers and take them off all the time or just use underwear? Because even if one is "only" missing 1-3 pees per day, that's a LOT of accidents on furniture, carpet, etc. I can see if one had no furniture or carpet, but I do NOT want my house smelling of urine (nor does the idea of running my steam cleaner several times a day sound fun). So how do people keep this from happening? I know when ds first "potty trained" (Which did not involve any "punishments" whatsoever, by the way - he did it pretty much on his own from day 1 that I started him due to much discussion we had prior to it about what was going to take place (no more diapers, underwear, potty, etc.) -- anyway, during those first few days I was so afraid he would pee on the couch. Luckily, he's only ever had one pee accident, and it was within the first 12 hours of "potty training", and it wasn't on the couch

Anyway, I'm sure this is one of many questions I will have. I loved our website, btw! Very informative.

TIA!
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#5 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 09:32 PM
 
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Well, first I'll say that I don't really 'label' myself an "Attachment Parent." My goal is to parent graciously, intuitively, lovingly and as naturally as my sometimes limited understanding/knowledge allows! Thank goodness for MOTHERING expanding my thoughts as I'm learning ways to stretch myself and my goals for my family. The concept behind AP being around before Dr. Sears coined the phrase.

But back to the topic at hand. For some just entering into the world of Natural Family Living, cloth diapering is a huge step and EC'ing is as 'out there' as the moon itself. That was exactly how I was. However, I would still consider myself an 'intuitive' parent . . . I was concerned for my child's comfort . . . was concerned for her health . . . was concerned for the environment . . . yadda . . . yadda . . . so, I entered the world of cloth diapering fearfully, but with dogged determination. If someone would have told me that in order to be a truly intuitive parent I needed to practice EC, I might just have fallen off the wagon in the first place. And if I did subscribe to the label of AP, I do believe it would have been offensive to be told that I could not say I was AP if I did not raise my child free of diapers.

Although I enjoy EC'ing - I know there are many, many cd'ing mommas that are equally as intuitive, change their children's dipes with fervor, long for their child's comfort and are truly in tune with their child's needs. I don't believe a child needs to sit in their waste for an extended period of time and sometimes the talk of super-absorption qualities makes me wonder if we are trying to make cloth 'act' as a disposable.

I know that before EC, I changed with regularity wanting my babes to stay as dry as possible. Bottom line, EC'ing seemed easier in the long run and since I was changing dipes anyway . . . I felt, why not just take him to pee in the time I was changing dipes.

I feel I parent intuitively and naturally and everyone knows I use diapers as well - in fact I'm longing after some of Robin's Poquito Pants as I write! And looking forward to Kenny wearing my new hand knit soaker from Pamela tonight with his prefold! But, of course, I'll change him when I hear him stirring and 'feel' that he probably is wet. Or maybe I'll catch him before hand and he'll stay dry all night. We shall see.

And if anyone thinks I'm ready to give up my cpfs and my Ice Star Wool Fuzbomb as well . . . well, they got 100 more 'thinks' coming! :LOL
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#6 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You're right, that's a generalization.... it's really only the conversations on how to avoid changing the diaper more than every 3 or 4 hours that get me.... :-)

And I had no idea how often babies really DO pee until I started EC with my son... other than keeping a finger down their pants, it's pretty hard to tell the instant they're wet.

Blessings!

Ahleemah (hey, maybe some mom should invent a diaper that has a sensor in it that beeps when the baby pees!)
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#7 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think any EC'ing mom I know would EVER say that EC is *necessary* for being AP or being intuitive with your child.. EC is merely one more tool in the AP toolbox, they all kind of fit together and are directed to the same ends, KWIM? You can also be an intuitive loving AP parent and not be breastfeeding, so YMMV,

Ahleemah (who really went overboard on the acronyms in that one.. phew!)
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#8 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 09:44 PM
 
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Thanks for replying to my question so sensitively and informatively! I really had no idea of the philosophy behind EC and still am not sure if it is something I'd do, but you certainly enlightened me a lot & gave me pause to think!

I know there are tons of moms who think I am weird for “still” nursing my 11 month old, giving birth naturally, and now here I am switching to cloth diapers!! It all seems a bit strange til you understand it & especially until you do it yourself!

Thanks,

Donna
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#9 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 09:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ahleemah
I don't think any EC'ing mom I know would EVER say that EC is *necessary* for being AP or being intuitive with your child.. EC is merely one more tool in the AP toolbox, they all kind of fit together and are directed to the same ends, KWIM?
Thanks for the clarity. Yes, I would agree that EC'ing is one more way that we can meet and know our children's needs.
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#10 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 09:49 PM
 
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Donna (the person who asked the question on the other thread!). I wanted to answer you cuz I felt exactly the same way you do when I first heard of EC! I thought it was totally NOT for an AP mom like myself. I thought it was some harsh thing that strict parents did to get their kids in line (or to show off!). Yes, yet again, I had a knee jerk reaction, stuck my foot in my mouth and am now eating crow, lol! (I also, BEFORE I had kids, thought they had to be taught to sleep in their own beds, some kids "need" a good slap and I was thinking I'd "try" bf - I've eaten a LOT of crow since becomming a mommy )

Anyway, you asked what are the benefits to the kid? Easy! They don't have to pee or poop on themselves! Animals aren't supposed to sit in their own waste. It's only human animals that poop in their "nest" and sit in it and think it's ok.

The thing is, human babies are *trained* to wear diapers. Newborn babies don't *want* to poop in a diaper and wear it anymore than they *want* to poop in a Baby Bjorn potty. They just want to poop! They just want to get that uncomfortable feeling taken care of and get that pee or poop out of them. So they grimace or cry or make some sort of subtle sign and then they poop. How we deal with it is up to us, the parents, since the baby obviously can't take care of it himself (the baby can't change his own diaper or get himself to the potty). When a baby is put in a diaper and then pees or poops into it, after awhile, the baby gets used to it and it becomes normal. If, instead, the baby is held so that the poop and pee go somewhere other than in a diaper, then the baby gets used to it and it becomes normal.

It's not about making little babies "hold it" (tho most of us have found that after awhile our babies will hold it long enough for us to get their pants off, rather than mess themselves!). It's not about praising the baby for going potty and scolding for "accidents". We don't do sticker charts or reward our babies for going potty.

My favorite comparison is to breastfeeding.

I read his signals and I can tell (usually) when he wants to eat. So I feed him. I don't wait til he can use words to ask to eat. I'm his mama and over time I have learned his signals and so a certain look or a cry or smack of lips tells me he wants to nurse. Good enuf for me! Without speaking English, he has communicated to me that he is hungry and so I respond by nursing him. And sometimes I offer him to nurse just by timing. He may not be asking, but it's been awhile, so I offer. Sometimes he wants to, sometimes not. Whether by timing or communication, I cue him that it's time to nurse by holding him in a certain position and asking him if he wants mookies. If I got it right, he responds by giving a big grin and latching on

Now just substitute bf with EC! I read his signals and (most of the time!) I can tell when he wants to pee or poop. I *could* ignore this knowledge and let him go in his diaper and then change him. Which is what I used to do with my daughter! Seems crazy now, but I'd see she was going to poop so I'd sit helplessly (so I thought!) by, wait for her to poop aaaaaaaaalllllllll over the inside of her dipe (her poops were always smeared all over the place!) and *then* take her dipe off and clean her up. As she got older, this would be accompanied by lots of crying since she hated diaper changes.

Instead, with my son, I take off whatever he's wearing (sometimes he wears dipes!) and set him down on a potty. The certain position, added to the sound "pssss" and me asking if he has to go all help to cue him. If I read the signal right, he releases and goes. If I didn't read the signal right, he complains and I take him off the potty (if I don't read the breastfeeding signal right, he bites me, lol!). And like with nursing, sometimes I offer just cuz he hasn't gone in awhile.

Sorry to ramble so much! Anyway, I hope that answered some questions
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#11 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 09:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by JDsMommy
One question I have, do EC-ers use diapers and take them off all the time or just use underwear?
We sometimes use diaper backup, sometimes not. I miss a LOT at night so he wears his beautiful Liz cloth dipes to bed During the day he wears Gerber undies and if we go out he wears dipes w/out cover. I used to carry prefolds under him nakie all the time but we don't have a lot of misses lately so I don't bother. The point is, when he wears a dipe, I don't *depend* on it. I take off a dry dipe, take him potty, put the dry dipe back on.
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#12 of 75 Old 02-21-2003, 11:31 PM
 
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hey, maybe some mom should invent a diaper that has a sensor in it that beeps when the baby pees
They do have that, LOL! Not a certain *Diaper* but it's a separate thingy that you put into the diaper (under a doubler) and it plays a song when it gets wet! I can't remember the name of them. Anyone know?
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#13 of 75 Old 02-22-2003, 12:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ahleemah

Ahleemah (hey, maybe some mom should invent a diaper that has a sensor in it that beeps when the baby pees!)
I saw this in the leaps and bounds catalog. The illustration practically made me pee in my pants. Here's a link to the online store... you must see this bizarre thing:

http://www.onestepahead.com/jump.jsp...iProductID=411

Maybe it's not bizarre, but that was my knee jerk reaction!

Pamela
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#14 of 75 Old 02-22-2003, 12:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ahleemah

And I had no idea how often babies really DO pee until I started EC with my son... other than keeping a finger down their pants, it's pretty hard to tell the instant they're wet.
Boy do they! My DD still goes at least 18-20 times a day! I admit I miss a lot, so I do rely on diaper backup, but since I hold DD 90% of the time, I'm pretty quickly aware of if/when she wets, so she doesn't sit in it for any length of time. I've never been one to change by the clock (e.g. every 2-3 hrs or whatever) since I know DD wets many times in a 2 hr period, and she wouldn't put up with sitting in a wet/dirty diaper for that long (nor should she!!)

Disposable using friends from work thought it was a clear sign that I wouldn't stick with CDing because of how often DD goes, but here I am 4 months later (and no, I haven't told them about ECing--they were freaked out enough by the CDs!) The short time I had DD in disposies right after she was born, I hated because (among other reasons) I couldn't tell when she was wet (though DD often could still feel it!), and I didn't want her sitting in it if there was any urine at all.

I don't have a problem with absorbancy to protect clothing or furniture, but I definitely think diapers should be changed as quickly as possible when wet or soiled, not 2 hrs later/when convenient. Overnight is still my exception, but DD wakes and I change her once or twice a night (she doesn't sleep more than 1-3 hrs at a time yet) because so far she hasn't wanted to go to the potty at night.

I've veered pretty far afield of the topic here, but I guess my real point is that yes, even using diapers you can certainly stay in tune with your child and her or his needs. I'm not big on labels, so I don't think of myself as "AP", though I share most of the tenets. Like Heather I try to parent intuitively based on the basic biological expectations and needs of my DD; both CDs in the way I use them and EC fit well within that framework.
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#15 of 75 Old 02-22-2003, 02:18 AM
 
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My first reaction to that "device" was pity. People that use that kind of thing to get their kids to quit wetting the bed have SHAME and GUILT all tangled up with bodily functions and that just makes me so sad. The very fact that it has a Volume settings in loud and soft...grr. Seriously, imagine the complexes that HAVE to accompany having a buzzer attached to your crotch which goes off when you pee in your bed (something you're embarrassed about anyway), which wakes up the sibling who shares your room, who discusses it with Mom and Dad at the breakfast table, etc., etc., etc. Maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe not.
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#16 of 75 Old 02-22-2003, 03:07 AM
 
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This is really interesting. Like many others, I had never heard of ec'ing until coming here. It is pretty intriguing. I am enjoying reading the discussion about it. I feel like I am pretty intuitive and sensitive to my ds's needs, but not nearly as much as many of you. I am still learning. One thing I will say is that while you make good points about changing a wet or soiled dipe right away, reading cues to keep baby comfortable, and so on, I don't get any sign that my ds is uncomfortable in a wet or soiled dipe. I am not saying I intentionally leave it for extended periods, but I do leave it for a more convenient time. He is pretty strong willed and lets me know when he does not like someting, but a wet or soiled dipe has never seemed to be a problem. Again, I am not saying it is reason to leave it for extended periods, I guess I just don't fee too bad about changing when it is more convenient. A lot to think about. Thanks for getting this discussion going.
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#17 of 75 Old 02-22-2003, 03:49 AM
 
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Originally posted by bubbles
I don't get any sign that my ds is uncomfortable in a wet or soiled dipe.
Hi Bubbles Hee hee, I had a college friend with that nickname.

Two things to your comment. First is that personality does come into play! My ds is *very* laid back. When he cries about anything, he doesn't do it with nearly the force that my dd did as a baby. Either things don't bother him as much, or he's just more gentle in expressing it. We've had 2 poopy dipes in the past 3 months and they didn't bother him at all! Tho he does cry or fuss when he wets himself, go figure!

The other thing is that even if it did bother them in the beginning, after awhile they become used to it. That's why you often hear of an ideal window of opportunity for starting EC being from 0 to 4 months (tho many are successful with older babies - we started at 6 months). However, the reason it's harder with older babies is because they are diaper trained if you wait too long and now you have to un-train them. Starting with a new baby is starting fresh They haven't been trained to go on themselves so there's nothing to undo.

My dd is a good example of that. She hated diaper changes (she STILL a very active kid and she didn't want to sit still). She would have a full diaper of poop and didn't care. She wouldn't even take it off, she'd just keep running around the house with poop plastered on her til I noticed and had to wrestle her to change it. She was used to a diaper and used to pooping in it so it didn't bother her anymore.

Also, in the first few months a baby will fuss or cry or whatever when it has to go or eat, or is tired, or wants hugs (etc). If the mom responds to the signals, the baby will learn that *this* particular signal causes *this* particular reaction and will repeat it. If the signal is not responded to, after awhile the baby will stop signaling. So if you are ECing, the baby will keep up signaling it's elimination. If you are using diapers, the baby will eventually stop signalling elimination because it can just go in the diaper.

I hope that's clear and I'm not just rambling again, lol!
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#18 of 75 Old 02-22-2003, 10:06 PM
 
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Back to the original subject - EC and AP

Here`s what I wrote about this on my homepage:
http://www.s-line.de/homepages/bradf...amilieECAP.htm

Attachment Parenting and Elimination Communication

Parents practising Attachment Parenting (AP) might at first be rather sceptical, if EC is really what they should do. After all, they favour child-led weaning. They are prepared to sleep together until the child is ready to move to his own bed on his own account. Wouldn´t it be against those principles to have a baby out of diapers, before he can decide for himself he doesn´t need them anymore?
Perhaps a bit of the confusion is caused by also calling it "Infant Potty Training" - sounds a bit like a rigorous training routine applied to infants - which is definitly not what Laurie Boucke had in mind when she coined the term. That´s why I like to name it "Elimination Communication" or "Natural Infant Hygiene" - both expressions already make it sound more compatible to AP, don´t they? :-)
In my opinion "toileting" your infant is not at all contradictory to what AP is all about

AP is about reading and responding to your baby´s cues - so is EC.
My baby not only tells me when he is hungry, or sleepy, or wants to be picked up, but is also trying to communicate his elimination needs. I found it to be of great help to know another reason a baby who had just been fed, was neither tired nor wet or soiled, might have to cry. Maybe he´s just telling you, that he has to go and doesn´t want to in his clothing? And it´s so easy to help - if you consider the possibility, which we usually don´t in the western world. :-(

AP is about attachement, about forming a close bond with your baby - so is EC.
Working together in caring for your baby´s hygienic needs is another area to form a strong bond of communication and trust with your baby.

AP is about caring for the baby the "natural" way - breast instead of bottles, family bed instead of cribs, wearing the baby instead of putting it down in a playpen - and so is EC.
Nothing is more "natural" than responding to your baby´s elimination needs by holding it at an appropriate place to eliminate. This is what mothers have done with their babies for thousands of years. Even organic cloth diapers are "unnatural" in comparison.

AP is about being there for your baby NOW - so is EC.
EC helps you to live in the moment. You try to deal with your baby´s elimination, when the need occurs, instead of changing and cleaning him afterwards.

AP is NOT about raising kids the way that´s most convenient for you at all times - neither is EC.
So if you might say EC looked like a huge waste of time to you, I´d reply that time spent caring for my son´s needs is never ever wasted. Wearing him is not a waste of time. Brestfeeding him is not a waste of time. Being there while he goes to sleep in the evening is not a waste of time. And helping him to eliminate in a proper place and not soiling himself is no waste of time, either.
Anyway, as with other AP practises, what looks like an uneccesarily huge investment of time and energy at the beginning, pays off later and usually makes life actually much easier for both of you. When breastfeeding is well established, it´s a breeze compared to preparing bottles. A baby who got his fill of closeness and attachment, turns into an independent and contend toddler. And a baby who had had the possibility to communicate his elimination needs, gets better and better at expressing those needs, as well as getting more and more control of them. So today - my son is 17 months old - I´m definitly spending LESS time on those issues than I would if I was diapering him. There are the occasional wet pants to throw into the washer (about 5 a week at the moment) but no diapers to wash or to change. Apart from that, I have to pull his pants down and up again when he has to pee (he´s practising, so I suppose he´ll soon do it himself) and clean him after his daily bowel movement - not that there is much to clean, as he didn´t sit on it in a diaper.

I don´t think EC means "weaning" babies off diapers before they are ready. Diapers as a toilet are just not the same category as breastfeeding or the family bed. I´d rather compare them to pacifiers - a substitute for the "real" thing. A pacifier replaces the mother - her breast - and a diaper also replaces the mother - her attention for the baby´s elimination needs. Of course you should "wean" a child slowly and carefully of those things - but isn´t it even better not to introduce them in the first place? Or only to use them as "backup" when really necessary?
As "readyness" is concerned, it depends on your definition of readyness. Of course an infant cannot say "I´ve got to pee", go to the potty, pull his pants down, sit down and do his business. But you wouldn´t say a baby is not ready to eat, before he can say "I´d like some cereal", open the cupboard, prepare the cereal, take it to the table and sit down to eat it with a spoon! So in my opinion a baby is "ready" for EC from birth - he has some awareness of his elimination, and he can communicate those needs. That´s all that´s needed. And he´ll "graduate" to complete toilet independence when he´s ready for THAT.
In my opinion many conventionally diapered children reach toilet independence long after they would have been "ready" without diapers. They suffer from what I call "toilet-confusion" (like nipple-confusion, which makes babies refuse the breast) They became unaware of their elimination needs, so they have many "accidents". They forgot how to "let go" at an appropriate moment - so they sit on the potty with no results. They request a diaper for pooing, because to poo at any other place scares them - the diaper has been the place to do it for years.
Of course there are also many children who are not confused by full-time-diapering and who self-train easily before their 3rd birthday - as there are children going back and forth between breast and bottle without difficulties.
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#19 of 75 Old 02-22-2003, 11:02 PM
 
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A pacifier replaces the mother - her breast - and a diaper also replaces the mother - her attention for the baby´s elimination needs.
Hmmm, I'm not sure I like that comparison. I mean, babies urinate in the amniotic fluid the whole time they are in there. And after my son was born, he seemed to pee very much on auto pilot. I have no doubt that EC can work and may even help foster an extra 'connection' between mother and child, but to say that diapers are a mother substitute, I think that's taking it a little far, and is a tad bit offensive. JMO.
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#20 of 75 Old 02-22-2003, 11:15 PM
 
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I gotta agree. That is definitely not a parallel comparison.
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#21 of 75 Old 02-22-2003, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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well....

both were invented to fill a need....
both are unnecessary to the majority of mothers throughout time
both can be used by loving, caring parents
both can be abused

I was quite defensive about diapering at first, until I grew to understand how natural EC is. It would be like if we as adults had used diapers our whole lives, and then someone came along and said "hey, you know, these aren't really necessary, people didn't use these from the dawn of time, y'know..". I'm sure there would be many adult-diaperers that would have all sorts of good arguments on why to use them, but the fact is, they *aren't* necessary. Are they convenient? Yes. Do they fit in our society now? Yes. Are they what nature intended when she designed babies? I don't think so... at least not born out by mother's experiences throughout the world over many millennia...

Don't be offended, freddy is not meaning offense.... but this is a MAJOR paradigm shift.... it's bound to be at least uncomfortable.

Blessings!

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#22 of 75 Old 02-22-2003, 11:34 PM
 
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Oh I'm not defensive. I think EC is a great thing, if you want to do it and the baby is responsive.

Just the pacifier/EC thing. The pacifier physically replaces the mother. The diaper does not physically replace the mother.
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#23 of 75 Old 02-23-2003, 01:14 AM
 
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I'm definitely going to read about this. I'm COMPLETELY ignorant at this point. A couple questions I have, though, are...

What about in the car seat? Do you diaper them then? If not, how often do they pee in it? And what about shopping and going to friend's houses? I guess I can totally see myself doing it at home, but out and about it seems so hard to believe that it could really work out. I mean, can your newborn actually signal to you that he/she must go and then wait while you find a suitable place?

Just trying to become informed here, and I'll try to not ask too many more questions until after I read the books - I DO have an open mind! I mean, I'd LOVE to use less diapers next time.

Thanks!
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#24 of 75 Old 02-23-2003, 03:20 AM
 
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Ahleemah said it better than I could But I think the point is that with EC, the mom has to be physically there with the child. Which is why EC works so well with AP practices. A mom who puts the baby in a playpen and leaves her there alone for hours a day could not EC. It works best with moms who carry their infants or wear them. Of course I'm not saying that moms who use diapers don't carry and wear them, but that to EC, you pretty much *have* to carry or wear the kid! (urgh, I'm finding myself really ultra sensitive about NOT offending anyone, so please don't think I'm saying only EC moms are AP cuz I'm obviously not meaning that, ok?)

Jody, most of us use diapers as backup! I put ds in dipes when we go out. Most of the time we come home still with a dry dipe on I just take him to public restrooms when we're out. I take off his dipe, offer him to go, put the dipe back on. We actually do better when out and about then at home! I've had to clean out the carseat more than a few times cuz of my dd (conventional training) and believe me, it's NOT something I want to do more than necessary (those things are a PAIN to get apart!).
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#25 of 75 Old 02-23-2003, 03:22 AM
 
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Ooooh, and TWICE I had to clean cat pee out of a carseat. Now THAT was an experience
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#26 of 75 Old 02-23-2003, 03:36 AM
 
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All of the EC'ing moms have made really good points.
I wanted to add that since we've been EC'ing, ds has gotten to where he can hold his pee very well. A couple of days ago, I was slinging him during a nap and he quietly woke up. He was diapered, so I waited a few minutes before pottying him (he always has to pee upon waking, but I thought he might fall back asleep). He waited ten minutes without a problem before I helped him pee. He's also started holding it at night; last night, he held it for a stretch of five hours. As I understand it, as babies become more aware of their bodies, they are often able to do this.
The pacifier/diaper analogy makes a lot of sense, IMO. Both are created for the convienence of the parent and as a substitute for her attentiveness. I think Ahleemah explained it well.
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#27 of 75 Old 02-23-2003, 04:34 AM
 
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Quote:
The pacifier/diaper analogy makes a lot of sense, IMO. Both are created for the convienence of the parent and as a substitute for her attentiveness
: I consider our diapers a wonderful, beautiful soft place for my babies bum to be snuggled, between frequent diaper changes, not a substistue for my attentiveness.
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#28 of 75 Old 02-23-2003, 10:51 AM
 
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Sorry - I certainly didn't want to offend anyone with the pacifier/diaper comparison. I'll try to explain myself a bit more:

My AP-EC text originally was my answer in a discussion on some parenting-board. Someone had stated, that EC to her was forcing children to do without diapers prematurely and she compared it to weaning a child from the breast before he's ready. I that context I said, that in my opinion "weaning" from diapers cannot be compared to weaning from the breast, as the breast is what babys by nature are intended to get. Babys are designed to drink at their mother's breast for several years, while eating more and more other food at the same time. Babies are not designed to wear diapers until they choose to use an other place as their toilet. Which doesn't make diapers a *bad* thing by definition. With my comparison I just wanted to make clear, that doing without diapers (from the beginning or from a comparativly early point) is *not* unnatural and does not mean depriving the child from something he still needs.

On the other hand, if a child is used to using diapers - same as if he is used to a pacifier - it is definitely a good idea to wait until he shows he is ready to do without them.

I am using diapers for backup, too. I even invented a diaper, the BackUp, especially for this purpose - I talked about them on this board. As we are having carpets instead of a "natural" dirt floor and mom and baby wearing clothes instead of living in a hot climate, they *are* very helpful!
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#29 of 75 Old 02-23-2003, 12:00 PM
 
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OK Freddy, that comparison I agree with
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#30 of 75 Old 02-23-2003, 01:16 PM
 
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Mamazee, the use of cloth diapers coincided with the Industrial Revolution. Based upon this, it could be easily argued that they were created as a substitute for a mother's attentivness (as that was the era when things really began to speed up, men left the home to work elsewhere, and women started extending into other spheres). Perhaps that is not what they are still...because mothers have become so dependent upon diapers that they cannot see an alternative. But perhaps once a mother has learned about EC (certainly once she's tried it), and knows that diapers are not necessary, they again become a substitute.
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