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#31 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 06:41 PM
 
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Tendertushies, you said:

"It's the generalizations and putting ALL CD moms into the same category that was bothering me."

Can you please show me one example of where any EC'er generalized and put all CD moms into the same category? I'm really interested, because this seems to be bandied about a lot and I want to go right to the source and see what was said, instead of REPEATEDLY seeing phrases like this.

Much appreciated,

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#32 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 07:07 PM
 
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I would, but now I feel like you are making this a debate with me personally, and that is NOT what I intended, nor something I wish to partake in.

Others felt the same as I did. If they would like to give you the specific examples you seek (I may be pregnant but I didn't imagine them, nor did they ), I would be happy if they would do so.

For myself, this issue was already put to rest in the few posts above yours and I feel fine with things now that it was clarified by ShannonCC, who worded what I was trying to say much better than my preggo brain allowed. And I have again tiptoed back into the EC threads to lurk and learn.

Thanks for understanding I simply wanted to share my feelings, and answer a question. I feel like I have already been understood, and that I understand the other POV thanks to ShannonCC so I don't want to delve deeper into the misunderstanding that occurred on both sides right now.


(edited for wording and typos -- Yes, I'm anal about that. :LOL I was an English major after all, and I need to use it somewhere! )

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#33 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 07:15 PM
 
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I don't want to debate either. And I don't want to discuss whether I, or anyone else here, "deserves" to be offended.
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#34 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 07:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShannonCC
T Totally OT! This morning dh picked up dd upside down and scared her. He put her down immediately (he thought he was playing). She's telling me and says "dada picked me upside down and I was scared and he put me down and blah blah blah and that's the problem". OMG, I felt SO bad but dh and I just started laughing! Blah blah blah???

To continue the T -- that is sooooo cute!!! I would have been like you -- trying hard to hold back the giggles at her cuteness! (in fact I've done that on a few occasions -- I'll have to think of a cute dd story to share, too )

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#35 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 07:36 PM
 
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I just re-read my post.... I don't see debate in there.

I responded to you because I was reading THIS thread, I could just as easily have picked someone else.

From what you wrote, it sounds as if you've seen specific examples of this. Because this is the major thing that has been levelled at the EC'ers on this board, I for one would like to get to the bottom of it

Mamazee, did someone question "whether I, or anyone else here, "deserves" to be offended."????

I'm totally confused.. I see people responding to things they say others are saying to them..... but I don't see these original comments!

It seems that EC'ers are not the only ones generalizing?

Blessings!

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#36 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 07:50 PM
 
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Aleemah, to answer your question, some of them were retracted, or reworded, which helped...but the original posts were left as-is.

You said "I believe that diaper-training is NOT AP because you are not responding to the child's inherent need to eliminate and not soil themselves."

Now, you did soften it later by saying "I don't think any EC'ing mom I know would EVER say that EC is *necessary* for being AP or being intuitive with your child.."

Those were both from the same thread, so by the time some people read your later post they were already going. To me, any discussion or what is, or is not, AP seems somewhat irrelevant. But to be told they're not AP because they don't EC is as hurtful as saying if you can't BF you can't AP.

"this is a MAJOR paradigm shift.... it's bound to be at least uncomfortable."

To me, this seems to say, that our discomfort is your goal. Which is troubling, since it communicated that you are *trying* to offend. That must not be the case...but it's how that statement comes across to me. Which adds a new lens to other statements you make, which I would chalk up to opinion and ignore, but then suddenly seem maybe to be intended to be hurtful.

(edited to add: a lot of the "absorbancy" issue were statements from other CDing folks...not EC folks. I mentioned ECers in one post of mine because ECers are obviously more familiar with differences in elimination pattern. I have just realized that may have caused confusion...I'll edit that.)

"Diapers as a toilet are just not the same category as breastfeeding or the family bed. I´d rather compare them to pacifiers - a substitute for the "real" thing. A pacifier replaces the mother - her breast - and a diaper also replaces the mother - her attention for the baby´s elimination needs."

This quote from Freddy was also clarified very well a few posts later, but again, after people read it and strongly disagreed with the comparison...some of which was caused because this was written as a part of an argument from another board...probably could have used some refinement before reposting.

Shannon's suggestion of I statements is very helpful, I think that would solve 90% of it.

At the same time, I expect women here to be open enough to educating themselves about EC that they don't think it's some Ezzo thing, or forced potty training a la 1950, and not to treat EC'ers as if they are engaging in some sort of cruel behavior. And we should *all* request Mothering publish some EC articles!
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#37 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think we are getting into an "us vs. them" thing and that is SO not the case. There *might* be a few CDers and a few ECers who have problems with the "other side", but that in no way should extend to all the rest of the moms here. EC is not an organization with a party line no more than CD is. One CDer does not speak for all CDers and neither does one ECer. If someone has a problem with what an ECer said, then that problem should be with *that person* or *that post* not with EC in general, yk? And vice versa for the CDers.

I know that some moms think that "the ECers" are lumping all CD moms together and as I see it that is not the case in the least, but neither should ECers be lumped together. The us vs. them stuff never helps and only hurts.

Maybe we should stop thinking of us as ECers and CDers and start referring to ourselves as moms who happen to EC or CD, yk?

T Jessica, please do share a story! We need some lightening up for ALL of us moms here I totally muffed it up this morning, we DID start laughing uncontrolably. Poor kid was trying to talk to me and I'm laughing (oh but it was so hard!). I did tell dh to go and apologize to her for picking her up and scaring her so all was right after that
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#38 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 08:00 PM
 
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OK, let me state this more clearly then. Please leave me out of this. As I said, I already feel this was resolved *for me*.
To me personally, trying to pull me into something after I said I am past it and feel better, even good about it, IS creating a debate with me (again that is what makes ME feel confronted, someone else may feel entirely different). And I just do not feel like debating. Thanks again for understanding that.

(I'm trying to keep this to *I* and *me* statements because I think Shannon hit the nail on the head when she suggested that they would help! )

HUGS!

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#39 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 08:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShannonCC
I think we are getting into an "us vs. them" thing and that is SO not the case. There *might* be a few CDers and a few ECers who have problems with the "other side", but that in no way should extend to all the rest of the moms here. EC is not an organization with a party line no more than CD is. One CDer does not speak for all CDers and neither does one ECer. If someone has a problem with what an ECer said, then that problem should be with *that person* or *that post* not with EC in general, yk? And vice versa for the CDers.
Darn it I type too slow in this laying down yet propped up position in front of the computer! :LOL

Anyway, I had to say ITA with this idea and with the idea of using *I* statements whenever possible. I see how I, in my explanation of how I felt, was general as well, and I'm sorry about that! I'm going to try and be more specific and use *I* and *me* statements if I have issues from now on.

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#40 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 08:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Actually, I know many, many parents that leave their children in poopy diapers, sometimes for HOURS
I'm happy to say I don' t know anyone like that, AP or not, cloth or not. Everyone I've ever hung out with that has a baby/toddler will change their child immediately upon noticing a poop. And many will check for it often just to make sure they don't let the child sit for very long in it.

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#41 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, I took so long to write my post, it looks like my statements are referring to Ahleemah and Clarity! Sorry! They were meant for everyone, not in response to one person.

Jessica you are on bedrest? Ouch! Thank goodness for computers huh? LOL!
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#42 of 44 Old 02-24-2003, 12:05 AM
 
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I've gone back and read through my posts to make sure there wasn't anything in them that was judgemental. I don't think there is; I try very hard to be careful of my wording so as not to be rude in any way!

That having been said, I hope we can all move on from this; I don't think it's very productive or positive when any of us starts feeling like we have to verbally walk on eggshells so no one will take offense to what we say/write.
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#43 of 44 Old 02-24-2003, 01:44 AM
 
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Clarity, I addressed my original EC/AP comments in another thread, so let me summarize:

YES, in response to a post where it was wondered how EC could possibly be AP, I took the "other side" (my words) and challenged how diapering could be AP. Shocking? Yes! And yes again, I do feel that a paradigm shift is in order here.... I realize NOW that saying something so radical offended several people here. I am sorry for that.... at the same time, it was radical statements which challenged the very nature of what we do when we diaper our children, that clicked the light-bulb on for many people about EC.

I have a special talent for running off at the mouth... sometimes I can couch it all in PC language and make nice, but sometimes my passion overtakes me.

If saying that I truly deeply believe that EC will one day be entrenched in the AP pantheon of co-sleeping, babywearing, breastfeeding and that diapering, by it's nature (ie: it is not what babies are biologically conditioned to expect.. something I think AP is all about) is not in *my* defintion of AP disqualifies me from posting on this board, I'm okay with that.

I love it when I see someone with a passionate fiery strongly held opinion about cloth diapering, for example.. it doesn't offend me. But you're right, I should take into account that not everyone has my thick skin.

Ahleemah - who thinks EC is the essence of AP.... ACK! I SAID IT AGAIN!!!! but didn't write the rulebook of AP, so what do I know.

Now, you all go back to your regularly scheduled program....

(MMM! I just thought of the comparison I was thinking of.... all you other nice EC'ers are the LLL of EC, whereas I am the Militant Breastfeeding Cult bitch EC'er... )

(one more P.S. the dicussion in my playgroup recently was how to use doublers so you could avoid changing your child while out and about or in the carseat. I'm soooo pleased that no mom on this board would ever ever do that!)
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#44 of 44 Old 02-24-2003, 10:07 AM
 
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This thread has been closed. Although we invite discussion regarding different choices in natural parenting, we are first and foremost concerned about supporting each other in our participation on these boards. To do that the conversation must remain respectful and not lend itself to judging, insinuating, drawing arguments away from their initial threads into a new one and/or not maintaining a comfortable atmosphere for other members.

Please refer to the Mothering Discussion Guidelines with questions on what manner is or is not appropriate to post.

There are several EC threads going at present, please feel free to post to any of them or to begin new EC threads that would be encouraging, informative and enlightening.

Thank you - for any questons feel free to PM me or email me at Heather@mothering.com
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