Cloth & EC - happy together - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 44 Old 02-22-2003, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was going to respond on the other thread but thought I'd put up a new one instead.

I'm sorry to see some moms are not happy about the EC threads. I guess I can only speak for myself when I say that I hope none of my long, overly enthusiastic posts have insulted any cloth moms. That was not my intention at all (and I'm 100% positive the other ECers would say the same!).

We're just so excited about EC. It's so fun, it's neat, it's something we want to share with the world and get other moms to convert! I know a lot of CD moms feel the exact same way about cloth! And sometimes it's hard to talk about the benefits of cloth without saying something about the downside of disposables. Just do a search on disposables or sposies and you'll see lots of comments about odors, cancer, sterility, the environment, etc. And yet no one is trying to attack disposable using moms. They're just enthusiastic moms trying to promote cloth.

It's the same way with EC. We don't want to offend anyone, we just want everyone to know how wonderful we think EC is!

And do keep in mind most EC moms are also CD moms I think I've met a handful who use sposies, but most of the rest either use (or at one time used) cloth backup. Just ask me about my stunning Liz Cloth dipes I got this week

I am very thankful there is an EC community here and I hope that never changes. It's because of MDC that I am ECing with my son. It's because of CD moms on Momsonline that I switched from sposies to cloth with my dd in the first place!

Keep sharing your passion, whatever that may be. Just remember, we can't enjoy our differences if we hide them!
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#2 of 44 Old 02-22-2003, 07:52 PM
 
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We've had EC threads forever, no issues. EC is great, more people should know about it. I don't really have the knack for it, but sis is doing great with it this week...and she didn't even know what EC was!

We've just had a few anti-diapering more than pro-EC in tone to a few things. I meant, for the most part, here in diapering (at least with the hyenas), you're preaching to the choir. Even if we don't EC, we know about it, and we think it's cool. I think the EC threads are fantastic. We just have a few newer posters about it...and like the recently converted, they can be a little heavy-handed. But I appreciate the patience when we have visiting diapering moms who ask "what's EC", "why would you do that" like every other day...
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#3 of 44 Old 02-22-2003, 07:59 PM
 
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I'm new to EC . . . 2 weeks new. I'm very excited simply because it is amazing to me that it actually works. If I have come across 'heavy-handed,' it certainly has never been my intent.

I express my joys in cheerleader fashion . . . from fuzbabies to my Punkin-Butt Wooly Wonder from Pamela . . . to my baby's bum!

I do think the two are not separate entities in and of themselves. Okay, this week I have been singing songs in my head and the title of this thread has me singing . . .

. . . so happy together!
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#4 of 44 Old 02-22-2003, 08:40 PM
 
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hmmm, i think that i might have been one of the offending posters...
there was one post i replyed to and i wasn't in a very tactful mood that day. Sorry about that, but it really does gross me out to let a baby knowingly sit in their own waste and i am entitled to my opinion.
like i said sorry bout that and great point Shannon
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#5 of 44 Old 02-22-2003, 11:19 PM
 
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but it really does gross me out to let a baby knowingly sit in their own waste and i am entitled to my opinion.
You certainly are entitled to your opinion. I just hope you don't express it at the expence of others. I have not read any threads that have offended me...(but I don't really read the EC threads) What I love about this board is that the enthusiasim leads people to educate themselves about what is best for their kiddo. However, if we alienate them by being, condecending or outright rude...we may turn them off rather than letting them "catch the fire".

I know I have said some negative things about sposies...I will remember to watch how I word those things from now on, that way...if a sposie using Mom is reading, I am sure not to alienate her, but instead, to get her interested and hopfully pass on the cloth bug to her!
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#6 of 44 Old 02-22-2003, 11:33 PM
 
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Oh- I thought the Cd'ers and the EC'ers were getting along pretty harmoniously here, but point taken
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#7 of 44 Old 02-22-2003, 11:35 PM
 
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yeah, well, we were : Hopefully everyone will be back to normal soon.
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#8 of 44 Old 02-22-2003, 11:45 PM
 
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When we EC'd it made me disgusted too, about babies sitting in their own waste. But as I have learned over and over, the minute I judge, I am taught a lesson. My baby stopped EC at 12 mos. and now she's back in diapers full time at 26 mos. I used to think parents were lazy for not potty training their children earlier than most train these days. I was disgusted with the thought of a 3 or 4 year old in diapers. Until my little stong willed toddler taught me yet another lesson on this topic. At least she's in cloth, not sposies.

But no, I was not offended in the least. It just seems so obvious to an ECer that ECing is the least messy thing to do, but it also takes a LOT of time. My dd would pee like 2x an hour so I had to drop things all day long to take her. Still better than wiping poop off her bum but it does take a certain amount of dedication that many here don't have time or energy for.

Sorry I'm rambling, I'll quit now. ;-)

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#9 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 12:16 AM
 
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Originally posted by USAmma
My dd would pee like 2x an hour so I had to drop things all day long to take her. Darshani
Okay, I got curious about this and sort of kept track today with how many times we 'pee' or 'poop' Kenny. Well, he gets to smackin' on me about every 2 hours. He pees 2x within 30 minutes after he eats. He poops about 3x a day, but sometimes when he farted, I ran him to his potty and he wasn't ready yet. So, I'll venture to say that we hold him on his potty a MINIMUM of once an hour, but probably closer to every 30 minutes on average.

THANK GOODNESS I didn't add that up before we started or I might have been discouraged! :LOL Then again, maybe not.

Thank you for this thread though - I do believe that the two coincide on many levels.
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#10 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 02:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I am NOT judging anyone, but babies sitting in their own waste has *always* disgusted me. Not cuz I'm an ECer, but I think that's why I took to it. When I had dd in sposies I would change them as soon as I knew she peed, lol! Yes, I know a huge waste of money to throw away a faintly piddled sposie, but it grossed me out. When she got to be a toddler and fought changes I let her stay in wet dipes rather than deal with the stress and I thought it was gross (I would wrestle her over poops tho!).

I am fully expecting ds to be back in dipes someday. I know a lot of EC kids in the West (where it's not common) go on strikes. Also, we started pretty late in EC terms, so I'm not sure how much it's really working. But if he goes back in dipes, I will do my best to change him ASAP. So I'm not judging myself either, lol!

I am not phobic about pee and poop or anything. I've been peed on by my kids (the ECed one and the non ) and I've been pooped on too. I've been vomited on and spit up on. It doesn't bother me and I just wash it off (honestly, I don't even bother washing off baby pee!). But for whatever reason, the idea of sitting in it *does*. So that's just me.

I guess that's also why EC hasn't added any time to our day. I was always changing him anyway, lol!
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#11 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 02:11 AM
 
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Whoops, I think I was one of the offending posters too. I said something a while back on a thread about CD 'hyenas' driving WAHM sales...sorry, guys, you know I love y'all

I do agree with BowenTherapist and Shannon, though. I would never let my baby sit in excrement, but I try not to judge those that do. It does bother me that it would be considered abuse to let an elderly person at a nursing home sit for hours in pee and poop, but we do it to babies all the time...but that's a discussion for another thread.

I think that moms that CD are certainly making a much better decision than DD-using moms. I usually use CDs as a back up. I do think it is important to change diapers often, but I don't think that using diapers is bad in of itself.
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#12 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 02:35 AM
 
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.. and took the words out of my mouth.

THANK YOU! My fingers thank you....

but I'm sorry, I can't change my opinion: I think EC is what we are naturally meant to do. <---- MY opinion, thankyouverymuch

I find that even stating that as my opinion can be viewed by others as judgmental... what can I do?

BUT just like I think childbirth without drugs and breastfeeding and babywearing are all natural things that we were meant to do, I know lots of moms can't do those things either. <shrug> No worries... chacun son gout, as the French say... to each his own.

And, I think it's important for moms to have an opportunity to re-examine their practice of how long they go between changes.... the number one thing new EC moms will say is "wow, I can't believe they were actually peeing so much... I had no idea! I'm changing WAY more diapers now...." That speaks volumes to me.

Blessings!

Ahleemah - so tired of including all the disclaimers.. can't we just assume that people are not being mean but just having their own opinions!!!
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#13 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 11:40 AM
 
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So if it's just us, and EC'er with their own opinions, how come things have been pretty contented until recently? What has changed? I mean, we've had ongoing EC threads in the diapering forum for a looooooong time, though it's fewer longer threads so they do sometimes get buried, Given the difficulty searching for EC (too short, have to use Elimination Communication which isn't spelled out in all threads...) some threads get missed, Perhaps we can request they be made sticky so they don't get buried. EC'ers should be here, without a doubt.
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#14 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 12:01 PM
 
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I think the main difference is that there are a lot more EC'ers here now than there were a month or two ago. At first, it seemed like there were only five or six of us...but our numbers have really grown!
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#15 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 12:02 PM
 
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EC'ers should be here, without a doubt.
I agree!!
I think it's such a neat concept, and was glad I did it with dd while it lasted. It really made me in tune with her, and I read lots of books to her on her potty so there was bonding time, and okay, I never lost the thrill of an infant using the potty. lol!

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#16 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 12:08 PM
 
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Originally posted by Clarity
So if it's just us, and EC'er with their own opinions, how come things have been pretty contented until recently? What has changed? I mean, we've had ongoing EC threads in the diapering forum for a looooooong time, though it's fewer longer threads so they do sometimes get buried, Given the difficulty searching for EC (too short, have to use Elimination Communication which isn't spelled out in all threads...) some threads get missed, Perhaps we can request they be made sticky so they don't get buried. EC'ers should be here, without a doubt.

For me what seems to have changed is that there are now more and more posts in the EC discussions where an unfair assumption is being made about diapering moms that we are awful and 'let our children sit in waste', etc. THAT is the change for me. I found posts about EC very interesting and informative up until that point.

Yes, I do need a super absorbant cloth diaper because my dd pees a river everytime she goes - one pee and she needs changing (and I change her LOTS!). Yes, my 3.5 yo still wears cloth diapers and is not toilet trained and likely won't be soon. WHY? She's a special needs child. But up until recent assumptions about diapering mamas, I never felt the need to put the 'disclaimer' that my child has high-functioning Autism in my posts to perhaps prevent being labeled a terrible mama who 'lets her child sit in waste'.

I DO think discussions about EC have their place and like I said, I found they VERY interesting! But, if they are going to critique other methods, or make assumptions about diapering mamas without facts, it is just turning me off the idea of EC or reading anymore about it. I could just not read the EC discussions, but then I would lose the chance to learn more about it and the possibility of trying it with this next baby. A tough spot to be in...

I'm not criticizing anyine with this post. PLEASE don't think so! I'm just sharing my POV as a CD addict who was avidly reading the EC threads to learn more and then got stung by what felt like a shift in tone from informational and chit chatty to assuming and critical. (I will admit that preggo hormones are likely not helping me!)

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#17 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 12:25 PM
 
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For me what seems to have changed is that there are now more and more posts in the EC discussions where an unfair assumption is being made about diapering moms that we 'let our children sit in waste'....But, if they are going to critique other methods, or make assumptions about diapering mamas without facts, it is just turning me off the idea of EC or reading anymore about it.
Actually, I think there was only one post about this at first. It was about how long you let a baby sit in a wet diaper before changing. Some EC moms said something to the effect of thinking it was awful to let babies sit in pee/poop, and then some CD'ing moms got defensive. At that point, the discussion moved to other threads.

Mamas here criticize other parenting methods all the time. Some people rant about moms that let their babies watch tv, formula feed, or use strollers. There have been many discussions here about why disposible diapers are bad. If that kind of discussion is fine, so is a discussion among EC'ers criticizing conventional cloth diaper use. I'm sorry that people are getting upset because their parenting methods are the ones being criticized for a change, but you shouldn't criticize others if you can't handle being criticized yourself. As always, JMO.
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#18 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 01:02 PM
 
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I feel like I need to clarify myself.

Quote:
Actually, I think there was only one post about this at first.
Exactly. At first. The assumptions and critiques have begun to grow in number. That's all I was pointing out - I wasn't trying to point fingers or anything. I was simply answering some of the questions in this thread that specifically asked what we felt changed about EC threads, and that was a change I felt I saw. I replied with how reading those threads made ME feel as someone who loves CDing (as it is what works best for my family right now), but who HAD also wanted to learn more about EC to possibly try it with my next child. I truly wasn't trying to blast anyone for their opinions, I was just adding my own.

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Mamas here criticize other parenting methods all the time... I'm sorry that people are getting upset because their parenting methods are the ones being criticized for a change, but you shouldn't criticize others if you can't handle being criticized yourself.
I haven't criticized others' parenting choices here at MDC, so I'm going to guess you meant the "you" in a group sense. I completely agree that ECers are absolutely entitled to their opinion! Really, I do. Like I said, I HAD been reading the EC threads with great interest. But, opinions based on facts versus opinions built on assumptions are two very different things. I simply dislike being lumped into a group of what is now being now labeled 'inattentive moms' in another EC thread based on one tidbit of info.: that someone puts a cloth diaper on their child's bum. As a special needs mom, I'm constantly exhausted because of just how attentive I have to be! :LOL Miss Sammy keeps me on my toes, that is for sure!!

I just feel it is unfair to be asked to just 'suck it up', so to speak, and not say it bothers some of us, simply because other people may or may not have been critical of others' choices in the past. We, too, are entitled to our humble opinions and wanted to say, "Hey, we don't like it!" No more, no less.

I'm personally not harboring hard feelings or anything, I was just sharing how *I* felt in response to a question.


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#19 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 01:30 PM
 
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I don't make judgements or criticisms about other parenting methods either. I used to before I had a baby though! No, as long as the baby is lovingly attended to I'm happy. Some people relish it though, it makes them feel better about themselves to establish a heirachy about who best loves/ cares for their child. That's ok, it's just needs to be put in perspective when you come across it. Diapering/ ec'ing is only one aspect of parenthood.

Having said that I find that most EC posts/ threads aren't offensive at all, though I do skip many of them, (as well as many diapering threads, I mean who can possibly keep up!) I think the whole EC concept is very cool if you have the committment to it and the time and that is the way you want to spend it. I think a nice cloth diaper changed whenever they are wet is a good alternative too. I would be very surprised if many mothers here let their child "sit around in their own waste" for long. I don't think only Ec'ers would object to that.

I like the different opinions because it does give me a chance to think about the way I do things, the way society does things and makes my world bigger. So, thanks, yet don't be so quick to judge.

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#20 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 02:00 PM
 
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Okay, I have to ask. Who has said anything about letting her kid sit in excrement? I don't think anyone on here does this or has said anything positive about it: I think all this talk about letting babies sit in "waste" and "excrement" is what is offensive to some cd'ers. When we talk about absorbancy, it's for PEE not poop. As in, I want my baby to be able to take a nap or a car ride without the clothes, bedsheets, carseat getting wet. No big ulterior motives of wanting to go for the longest time possible without changing my kids: .
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#21 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 02:42 PM
 
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momsgotmilk~
This was kinda my thought here, too. And I agree with Jessica, as well. Maybe this isn't a "CLOTH" diapering board technically, but that's what I thought of it as, primarily. I don't mine at all seeing EC threads. I usually don't read many of them, though. I wouldn't go onto a board full of disposable diaperers and criticize them for their wastefullness, though. You catch more Bees with honey.
I think of sitting in a wet diaper differently for different situations, too. I think newborn infant urine is very different in composition than toddler urine or adult urine. My newborn pees so frequently and such tiny amounts so often, that the very absorbant diapers I use will feel questionably damp sometimes every 30 min. or less. I choose to wait until it is actually wet (usually after the second pee) and don't like to let it sit there long enough that it gets cold. But with a toddler with stronger urine (who, by the way holds his/her pee usually and lets it all out at once in larger amounts, soaking a diaper) I would change pretty much immediately (as soon as I was aware, and I try to stay aware), as I would an adult. I also won't get up in the night to do changes. I personally don't see harm to my child by allowing them to sit in a wet diaper till morning. I don't see different sleep behavior or crying or rash, so how are they being harmed?
It's one thing to say "I change a diaper at the least sign of dampness." That person could even offer some solid medical/health reasons why that is important to do, if they want others to do the same. But when there is no harm to the child, to call parents who don't do that inattentive or anything else judgemental is wrong. And right, momsgotmilk, WHO in the WORLD, cloth or disposable, would intentionally let their child sit in their poop?? Any mom who has done that learns their lesson pretty fast when they see that flaming rash.
I think it's so cool to see so many ECers here, btw, let me emphasize. I have tons of respect for your dedication and for helping others learn about it!
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#22 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 03:45 PM
 
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*And right, momsgotmilk, WHO in the WORLD, cloth or disposable, would intentionally let their child sit in their poop?? Any mom who has done that learns their lesson pretty fast when they see that flaming rash.*

I don't have much time for a reply right now, but did want to address this.

Actually, I know many, many parents that leave their children in poopy diapers, sometimes for HOURS. Most of these are parents that consider themselves AP, and primarily use cloth dipes. In fact, most of the non-EC parents I know have left their toddlers in poopy diapers around me at one point or another... For some, it is simply not noticing, but for most, they notice and don't want to deal with the hassle of a squirmy poop covered kid. One family used to leave their 2 year old in poopy diapers for entire 3-4 hour visits at our house (I offered to change the poor kid a few times, and they actually took me up on it! Ugh-- my own toddler poop is stinky enough to me...)-- and even dropped him off with us to watch on two different occasions with poopy dipes. Not only sad for the child, but inconsiderate of others, as well.

So, though parents here at MDC probably don't do this, & may not even be able to imagine it, it does happen, and frequently. And I have heard and read about many parents discussing how long they can leave a child in a dipe, cloth or disp. At a recent parenting meeting in my town, a few mothers were talking about how great their disps. were, because they only needed to use 4 a day! With NEWBORNS. Ack, ack....

Anyway...

Beatrice-- married to Matt, mama to Max (almost 8 yo, cloth diped until 2 1/2), William (almost 6 yo, cloth diped until 2 1/2), Dora (almost 4 yo, cloth diped/partly EC'd, grad at 22 months), and Albion (1 on Tuesday!, EC'd from birth, mostly diaperless). Kids all nurse, unschooled, no vax, intact, UC, EC, yadda yadda...
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#23 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 03:53 PM
 
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EWE, Beatrice!! Thanks for enlightening me. I think? lol
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#24 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The reason it first came up is because there often are posts about how a mom doesn't like having to change so often and needs more absorbancy so she can go X amount of time before changing. I think it was after one of those threads that this issue started being talked about. I've noticed though that it's mostly moms who are just switching from sposies and used to going a long time w/o changing. Then they get to cloth and think they have "bad" diapers cuz they have to change "too often" lol! I have met people who switched back to sposies for that reason. (I think the post about excrement meant pee and poop both but I usually think of poo also)

I've been confused for awhile here, wondering why some people are getting upset and I think I figured it out.

Is it the difference between saying "*I* don't want my kid sitting in his pee" and saying "Those diapering moms who let their kids sit in pee . . . " ?

Maybe there was a post or two that said that, or had that tone and that is the problem?

In my years as a bf lactivist I have learned I have to be very careful about how I talk about bf. It's one thing to extoll the virtues of bf, the benefits in general and to my kids in particular, the benefits to my health, etc etc etc.

It's quite another to say "those formula feeding moms". Saying it that way puts people on the defensive right off the bat and I totally understand why! (and I could substitute bf with homeschooling, co-sleeping or even CD!)

And yes, there are some people who are going to get upset just because I talk about how great bf is. I can't control that. But I can make sure I am polite and respectful so that if and when someone gets upset, I know that is their reaction that they need to deal with and not me.

So I'm assuming that a post (or the tone of a post?) said something like "those CD moms". I didn't personally see anything like that but I'm going to assume that's what happened.

I will apologize if any of my posts had that tone. Being a cloth diapering mom myself who, just three months ago, thought EC was a whacked out idea, I think I have been respectful in talking up EC without putting down full time diapering moms.

And Jessica (Tendertushies), don't cut off your nose to spite your face If you really are interested in EC for the next baby, don't let any hard feelings stop you! I have met (online) some really OBNOXIOUS, rude and judgmental breastfeeding mamas. That doesn't stop me from bf my kids and promoting bf whenever I can! EC moms are PEOPLE, and sometimes people rub each other the wrong way, that's all!

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#25 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, lol! I just wanted to clarify that my comment about rude bf moms is in NO WAY saying that any of the EC moms have been rude, lol! It was just an example
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#26 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 04:21 PM
 
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Is it the difference between saying "*I* don't want my kid sitting in his pee" and saying "Those diapering moms who let their kids sit in pee . . . " ?
Very well put. I think that sums it all up.
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#27 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 04:30 PM
 
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Is it the difference between saying "*I* don't want my kid sitting in his pee" and saying "Those diapering moms who let their kids sit in pee . . . " ?
Yes, that's it! You said it much more succinctly than I did! (in re-reading my own posts I could just hear the Charlie Brown teacher voice "wah wah wah wah wah..." LOL) It's the generalizations and putting ALL CD moms into the same category that was bothering me. If the posts were phrased as what one wants for herself and for her own child, I would have continued to read the EC threads with gleeful interest and never have felt a tone change. Thanks for wording that so much more clearly than I did!



(Edited for spelling and typos.)

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#28 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 04:36 PM
 
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I agree too - that's exactly it.
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#29 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by tendertushies
(in re-reading my own posts I could just hear the Charlie Brown teacher voice "wah wah wah wah wah..." LOL)
T Totally OT! This morning dh picked up dd upside down and scared her. He put her down immediately (he thought he was playing). She's telling me and says "dada picked me upside down and I was scared and he put me down and blah blah blah and that's the problem". OMG, I felt SO bad but dh and I just started laughing! Blah blah blah???
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#30 of 44 Old 02-23-2003, 06:33 PM
 
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Actually, most of the talk about babies sitting in excrement has been from the CD'ers who are assuming (I have NO Idea where all these alleged mean posts from EC'ers are... and I read all the threads) we hate them!

The terms I am seeing "ALL these threads" "accusing us CD'ers" "lumping us all together" are simply not reflecting the reality of the posts that I personally have seen.

I think it's time to take a deep breath and look at our own belly buttons for a second.... I truly believe that this is about a few people getting defensive and then other moms assuming that what the defensive people are claiming EC'ers are saying is gospel.

It's all in the threads people.... and I have never met an EC'er who feels superior to a CD'er... because we're ALL pretty much CD'ing!!!! Sheeshh...... come on over to our yahoogroup, you won't see diaper bashing there!

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