Curious-- Is my Dr. wrong? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 41 Old 01-10-2008, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Mxxx
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#2 of 41 Old 01-10-2008, 09:28 PM
 
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Hah. That is what I refer to as an "old doctor's tale". I wish I had no idea how much of what doctors say is not and never was based on research, this included. It would be so much more comforting. Old doctor's tales are all the more painful when it comes to kids, because the men making them up had neither research NOR experience to go by.

At four months, my daughter never pooped unless she was over a sink. After waking from a nap she will dutifully wait until we get to the sink and then let go immediately. Once, I nursed her before we got in the car, drove half an hour into town, went into Target for ~20 minutes, got out to the car and when we went to change her, she was dry. Somewhat in shock, we held her out the door to go (we don't normally EC while out and don't have a setup for doing so, but it was raining so we thought what the hey) and she peed a quart immediately. Pretty long odds for a coincidence, wouldn't you say?
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#3 of 41 Old 01-10-2008, 11:56 PM
 
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It's such BS!

DS was barely had any poops in diapers by 3 months and by 12 months was clearly holding pee too. There is NO question in my mind that he was holding it from a very young age, far before 18 months.

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#4 of 41 Old 01-11-2008, 02:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Squrrl View Post
wish I had no idea how much of what doctors say is not and never was based on research, this included. It would be so much more comforting.
Yes, yes, yes. EC totally changed how I view pediatricians now. I mean, the AAP confidently writes that babies don't have control before 18 months. Which is just plain wrong. And it's not like it's hard to see that it's wrong--all you have to do is look at other countries (like China) where EC is the norm, and most kids are using the potty by 18 months (at least part of the time). And yet the AAP still writes that it's not possible. Huh??? It's made me question what ELSE they're telling me that's just plain wrong...

If you don't help your kids learn control, maybe they won't develop any before 18 months, but my dd was seriously holding her pee a few weeks after we started doing this (at just over 3 months). Nowadays at 14 months old, she often goes all night without peeing (and then pees a river on the potty when she wakes up in the morning), regularly waits hours between peeing and then releases it on the potty (or the floor or in a diaper if I am not paying enough attention), and is totally aware of and in control of her elimination (now whether she CARES where that elimination GOES is another question all together )

ETA: Not saying at all that your doc doesn't know what she's talking about when it comes to everything else...I'm sure she was taught this as part of her training! I'm just surprised how off base this one thing is, and it makes me question other pieces of the regular doctor training, you know?

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#5 of 41 Old 01-11-2008, 02:17 AM
 
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My youngest (with no prior EC or PT) decided one day at about age of 14 months that she wanted to use the toilet. We had been keeping the bathroom door closed to keep her safe, and she just started slapping the door. My older daughter (4 at the time) told me that L wanted to go potty. I remember arguing with J that no way, L was too little to even understand.

Boy was I wrong! I finally (in an effort to prove myself right) opened the door & placed L on the toilet, she did indeed want to go. From that point on, there were very few accidents, usually because I wasn't fast enough.

As in everything else, all kids are different. Dr's always seem to want to make us believe children are clones.
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#6 of 41 Old 01-11-2008, 04:53 AM
 
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uhh, dr's wrong there. my dd PT'd herSELF at 19 months, with only a handful of accidents and no lookign back. she's a very strong-willed kid

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#7 of 41 Old 01-11-2008, 02:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Carlyle View Post
Yes, yes, yes. EC totally changed how I view pediatricians now. I mean, the AAP confidently writes that babies don't have control before 18 months. Which is just plain wrong. And it's not like it's hard to see that it's wrong--all you have to do is look at other countries (like China) where EC is the norm, and most kids are using the potty by 18 months (at least part of the time). And yet the AAP still writes that it's not possible. Huh??? It's made me question what ELSE they're telling me that's just plain wrong...
I came to write this. And since it is already written, I will just quote it.

Mama of two... DS born at 35w5d (11/06) and DD : born full term 38w3d (5/09) on what would have been my dad's 64th birthday. Always missing my dad who died of oral cancer 3/11/09.
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#8 of 41 Old 01-11-2008, 08:40 PM
 
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dd potty"trained" at 19 months. all i did was take off the diapers and clean a couple of accidents, we'd been half ec-ing since 9 mo.
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#9 of 41 Old 01-13-2008, 07:32 AM
 
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I don't know why doctors just keep on ignoring obvious facts.
my 3 month old ds definitely keeps his pee when being worn or carried in arms, we didn't have any accidents there for many weeks and he is still so small. My mother always tells me that me and my sister were fully toilet trained by 12 month and I think that was the norm in East Germany. So I really wonder, are doctors just unable to educate themselves or are they so well paid by the diaper industry and who knows what else?
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#10 of 41 Old 01-13-2008, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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[QUOTE=Carlyle;10249584]Yes, yes, yes. EC totally changed how I view XXX
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#11 of 41 Old 01-13-2008, 07:38 PM
 
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after having ec'ed dd (and she fully potty learned almost independently at 22 months), i am a firm believer that babies have the control and awareness of their elimination far earlier than doctors and diaper manufacturers say they do.

it is very variable and i think it has to do with myelination of neurons, which the time frame for is different for each child. also i think that some time around 12-18 months is when toddlers begin to have the combination of cognitive awareness, muscle control, the concept of the toilet and what it is for, and verbal/communication skills that emerge and come together to make greater independence in pottying possible. and i also believe that ec'ing starting from an early age sets the stage for that to happen naturally (most of the time.) we're not 'training' our kids to soil themselves in a diaper, so they don't need to be 'untrained' of that habit down the line.
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#12 of 41 Old 01-13-2008, 09:06 PM
 
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The doc is just plain wrong. People across the globe potty train before 2 yrs or even 18 mos. Some cultures dont even use diapers.
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#13 of 41 Old 01-13-2008, 09:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Carlyle View Post
ETA: Not saying at all that your doc doesn't know what she's talking about when it comes to everything else...I'm sure she was taught this as part of her training! I'm just surprised how off base this one thing is, and it makes me question other pieces of the regular doctor training, you know?
IA. The doc was probably taught this in school, and American Pediatrics endorses that idea.

BTW, the stories here are inspirational! I plan to Ec.
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#14 of 41 Old 01-14-2008, 12:29 AM
 
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Vivian does great at home and when we are out. She only pees in potties and sinks and stays dry the whole time. She waits until I get her a sink or whatnot and then promptly goes and giggles about it. She likes to pee in sinks because she watch herself pee. She thinks it's hilarious!
As for Docs, well , mine saw her poop in her potty in the office at a visit and everyone knows there she is pottying and are all intrigued. He is fine with it and thinks it's cool. If only I could get him off my back about the co-sleeping....
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#15 of 41 Old 01-14-2008, 01:04 AM
 
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As soon as they are born, babies are aware of their elimination. The first weeks of his life, my son would go as soon as his diaper was removed. I didn't know about EC/IPT until the first couple months had passed. When I told my midwife that he was going when we took the diaper OFF, she said to look into EC. A whole new world opened up!

Forget the disposable vs. cloth debate! I could have EC'd him since he was born!

The books and research I've come across suggest that newborns are fully capable of releasing those sphincters for elimination AND being aware of the need to go. The idea that babies don't/can't feel or control their elimination comes from the same source of medlore* BS as the claim that a newborn doesn't feel any pain during circumcision.

(*unresearched, unsupported opinions taken as fact by the medical world at large)

Before EC, my baby was a LOT more fussy. He also had diaper rash. As soon as we started holding over that sink and cueing, he knew what to do. AND he was HAPPY! It was amazing how happy is was (and still is) every time we help him go toilet. He's 5 months, and we can keep his training pants dry indefinitely. (He's HUGE so, he fits into the 18 mo. training pants . . . smallest size of underwear available. )
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#16 of 41 Old 01-16-2008, 12:13 PM
 
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My 10 month old can hold her pee for HOURS when we are *out and about*, but she goes frequently (every hour or so) when we are at home. I'd laugh in the face of anyone who told me her muscles weren't developed yet.

This is kind of an aside, since it doesn't seem to apply to your situation, but I don't understand why people listen to doctors about advice other than MEDICAL advice. One of the women I work with was telling me what her doctor told her to do about her DD's tantrums. How is a doctor, trained in MEDICAL matters, qualified to give advice on behavioral matters? I don't understand how potty training and sleeping arrangements are MEDICAL matters.:
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#17 of 41 Old 01-16-2008, 12:43 PM
 
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This is kind of an aside, since it doesn't seem to apply to your situation, but I don't understand why people listen to doctors about advice other than MEDICAL advice. One of the women I work with was telling me what her doctor told her to do about her DD's tantrums. How is a doctor, trained in MEDICAL matters, qualified to give advice on behavioral matters? I don't understand how potty training and sleeping arrangements are MEDICAL matters.:
This is my opinion as well. My friends who have children are always appalled that I've never mentioned that we do EC to DS's doctor. I really don't feel that it's relevant in any way to his medical care, so I don't mention it. Nor do I mention co-sleeping or anything like that. To me, these are parenting decisions, and if they become relevant (for example, they want a urine sample or something from DS) then I'll mention them, not before. But, I guess if I had a doctor who wasn't mainstream, I would talk freely.

Mama of two... DS born at 35w5d (11/06) and DD : born full term 38w3d (5/09) on what would have been my dad's 64th birthday. Always missing my dad who died of oral cancer 3/11/09.
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#18 of 41 Old 01-16-2008, 02:16 PM
 
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I was talking EC to an MD friend this week. She commented that with #2 she "just didn't have the energy" but that after having 2 kids she didn't understand the "party line" that kids can't do this until 2... She agrees it is possible, but was taught otherwise and prior to having experience as a parent had no evidence to the contrary..
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#19 of 41 Old 01-17-2008, 01:29 AM
 
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Its a funny America myth, but its sure a strong one. I feel like we should all band together and get the truth put up on snoopes or something.

I think the best evidence ever is when your EC'd child starts to pee, you notice and say, "Hey wait" so they stop mid-stream and wait until you get them over their bowl/potty and then they start up again. Are you telling me that was a coincidence? That my 8mo Ds didn't just stop his urine stream and start up again on cue? Oh, okay, just so we're both clear about what happened there.
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#20 of 41 Old 01-19-2008, 10:36 PM
 
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Ha I agree- silly! My 14 mo old is nearly a grad and my first was only PT EC and was fully 100% PL's at 18 mo for day.
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#21 of 41 Old 01-20-2008, 07:56 AM
 
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The doc is wrong. DS1 reliably signalled from the start, and was able to "hold it" to get to a potty place from just a few months old. By 4ish mo he refused to poop in a dipe, and would hold it all day at daycare. We ditched dipes at 7mo partly because he signalled so clearly, but also because he peed so rarely out of the house. He'd hold it till we got home, even for hours, well before his first birthday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valian
I think the best evidence ever is when your EC'd child starts to pee, you notice and say, "Hey wait" so they stop mid-stream and wait until you get them over their bowl/potty and then they start up again. Are you telling me that was a coincidence? That my 8mo Ds didn't just stop his urine stream and start up again on cue? Oh, okay, just so we're both clear about what happened there.
Too true. My 4mo did this yesterday with a poo. He was having nakey time and I caught him right as he was pooping and said hold up let's get to the potty. He stopped, then finished when we were settled in over the toilet. No way that was a coincidence.

Mama to two crazy boys (8/05 & 9/07) and happy wife to one wonderful hubby.
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#22 of 41 Old 01-20-2008, 09:23 AM
 
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Actually, the doc is just forgetful (or more likely, his education is)
before the invention of disposable diapers, most babies, even in the west, were potty trained by 18mo.
Welcome to the advent of sposies, where babies can be pooping and peeing all day in a single diaper, and never feel any sensation of wetness. So they disassociate, and that's how we ended up with a whole generation of babes who dont toilet learn until at least 3yo, and a generation of peds who believe that a child is physically incabable of any elimination control before 18mo.

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#23 of 41 Old 01-20-2008, 10:29 AM
 
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yep, the dr is wrong. however, in the mainstream, 2 is fairly young to be fully potty trained. i have seen kids in diapers up to 5. it is possible your dr has only seen 'older' children potty trained, and no surprise with his/her advice!
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#24 of 41 Old 01-21-2008, 03:00 AM
 
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As soon as they are born, babies are aware of their elimination. The first weeks of his life, my son would go as soon as his diaper was removed.
My daughter did this too. I planned to wait until she was about 3 months old to start EC. When she was around 2 months old, I noticed that she had stopped peeing on the changing table. I realized that she was already learning that she was supposed to pee in her diaper--so we started right away. She went in the potty the very first time I cued her, and then the next time in a row. That's when I *really* started to believe EC worked!
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#25 of 41 Old 01-25-2008, 12:18 PM
 
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Holding my newborn over the potty for the first time and watching him go pee/poo was proof enough to me that all that "Baby's don't have control" thing was all bologna.

Leslie, mom to John :, 02/25/06
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#26 of 41 Old 01-25-2008, 10:06 PM
 
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They're sphincters. Sphincters AUTOMATICALLY "hold". If babies "couldn't hold it", they would be leaking pee and poo continuously. EC is about conscious and deliberate release of those muscles, which is what diapered babies get trained out of.

Of course little bitty babies can't "hold it" for very long once they need to pee or poop - their bladders and colons just aren't that big, and they have so much input and output because they're growing so much! - but they can do so some, and that length of time just gradually increases as they grow. But another beautiful thing about EC is often babies who don't NEED to go will still pee a little when given the opportunity; they may not have a full bladder, but they can still empty it.

I really don't understand how doctors can not get this. The concept of sphincters is basic to physiology. But I guess they get beat over the head with the idea that "babies can't" so much they don't actually, y'know, think.
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#27 of 41 Old 01-26-2008, 03:15 AM
 
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Babycenter has an article about EC (go them!) in which they interview a pediatrician who is against it. But as I remember, at least part of that doctor's concern was that parents who start what he understood as "potty training" early on might set themselves up with unrealistic expectations which can cause stress for the parents and consequential stress on the child. And from my own experience, this makes sense.

No, it's simply not true that babies can't control their elimination muscles. But it is true that we can overestimate their willingness to do so, and start unintentionally sending them messages that we are disappointed or disgusted or otherwise upset when they don't go on command or go when you don't expect them to. It's natural to feel this way as the parent when you are trying so very hard to "meet your child's needs" and they are not helping you do that. But it is important to remember that while baby *can* control his sphincters, he is also working on focusing on nearby objects and moving his hands in a controled fashion.

This in my opinion constitutes a sort of "hidden danger" in EC'ing in our culture. Those cultures who have done it for centuries are not hung up on misses, are not getting caught up in trying to pin their parenting success on their ability to "communicate" potty time to their kiddo. They are more relaxed, and yes, they have lots of misses!

Oh dear; this has turned into a thread-jacking! It should be it's own thread.

Sorry!

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#28 of 41 Old 01-28-2008, 12:34 AM
 
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My son seems to have a less developed sphincter and DOES leak poop all the time (not so badly anymore but we keep him in diapers so he doesn't leave little streaks everywhere). Regardless of this, he can still stay dry all night long and he's only 5 months old...and he's been doing for a while now. So it's easy enough to get pretty good at EC/PL even if you don't have the best of control.

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#29 of 41 Old 01-30-2008, 04:22 AM
 
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Alethia--I liked your hijack...very interesting perspective!!! Makes a lot of sense...

Mama to Nell (11/15/06) and Maggie (10/9/10) . AFTER 2.5 YEARS, I AM AN AUNTIE!!! joy.gifHOORAY TEAR78 and welcome Anika and Brand New Baby Boy!!!!  Circumcision: the more you know, the worse it is; please leave the decision up to your son!

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#30 of 41 Old 01-30-2008, 07:38 PM
 
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Might as well continue the hijack. I also thought Aletheia's post was very insightful. So much so I thought very hard about making a new thread with that as the topic. It's for this very reason that I don't think EC isn't for everyone. If you're not the kind of person who can do it gently and handle misses well, it can go downhill very fast and not be a positive experience.

Mama of two... DS born at 35w5d (11/06) and DD : born full term 38w3d (5/09) on what would have been my dad's 64th birthday. Always missing my dad who died of oral cancer 3/11/09.
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