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Please help-post 15-he's at it again.-update 80, 96

9K views 118 replies 46 participants last post by  MG01 
#1 ·
Ex has just informed me that he's going to be keeping ds until 7pm tonight. Our court order has him keeping ds until 3pm, at which time we meet and exchange ds. I told him that bedtime was unacceptable because we meet 2 hours (half-way) away from my house and tomorrow is a work/daycare day. Plus I haven't seen ds (or nursed him! Ouch!) in two days and I'd like to have some of my own time before bed. He said that He'll be there at 7 no matter what, and that's his right as ds' parent.

I called the police to get their input and they said this is a civil issue and all I can do is file papers to the court because he will be in contempt of orders.

Is there anything I can do? It's 17 degrees outside and will just get colder as night falls. I'm extremely upset that he's doing this. Part of me is inclined to just not show up. Then he'll have to either a) drive ds to my house and save me the gas or b) keep ds and violate the order even further (which he wouldn't do because he has to work and has no childcare tomorrow.)

Suggestions?
 
#28 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by slylives View Post
I am so sorry that you are going through this, it sounds absolutely dreadful and I hope you can at least enjoy a nice, relaxing Christmas evening. Make that a large glass of wine!

But I wanted to comment on what the police officer said to you: ABSOLUTE RUBBISH. For full disclosure, I am not a lawyer but a law student, and I've just finished a Family Law class with a practitioner who specialises in divorce and child custody. Just a few things I wanted to pass on:

1. It is, technically, possible to be found in civil contempt of a custody order. But in reality, it is extremely rare and would certainly require more than a refusal to hand a child over for a visit that breaches a standing agreement for one day. (In fact your ex is much more likely to be found in contempt than you.)

2. To be found in criminal contempt is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. Criminal contempt is a much higher standard than merely civil contempt. You would have to be breaching parenting time or support obligations on a systematic basis for the court to even consider this. (And they almost never do. The jails are overflowing - do you really think they are going to waste cell space on a mother who resisting handing over her child for an unagreed-to visit?) I'm actually quite angry about what the polcieman said - he's an idiot. The idea that custody could be reversed, or you could go to jail for this - an absolute nonsense. I can't even articulate how ridiculous that notion is (maybe I rethink the law as a career :)).

3. To change a custody order, the courts look to whether or not there have been significant changes in the child's circumstances (re-marriage of the custodial parent, parent seeks to relocate, etc) and if so, whether a change of custody would be in the "best interest of the child." The events that you have described wouldn't even come close. I doubt you'd find a lawyer who would not laugh your husband out of the building if he suggested that custody should be changed because of a dispute about Christmas visits.

4. The most important one!! Please find yourself a decent lawyer, who can put your mind at rest that you are behaving perfectly reasonably. If you are struggling financially, go to Legal Aid, or get some recommendations and ask them if they do pro bono (free) work. Most lawyers are obligated to spend a certain number of hours per year on pro bono cases, you might be the one case they are looking for!

5. Repeat - that police officer is a jackass. And repeat. And repeat. He knows nothing about the law. Nothing.

Merry Christmas. I hope things work out for you. And please get a lawyer.
I just wanted to comment on what a thoughtful and generous post.
 
#30 ·
Forward the email to your attorney right now. Call and leave a message at your attorney's office requesting that your attorney call you ASAP. (Many businesses are open tomorrow and/or Friday, because Christmas fell on a Wednesday.)

I would also forward the email to the GAL, with a short note about how you allowed DS to go, because you did not want to be in contempt, but that this is in violation of your custody agreement, as was the previous incident. (Be very neutral and calm, or let your attorney forward the email to the GAL.)

You also need to get some direction from either your attorney or the GAL about how to handle situations such as these, since it has now happened twice in two weeks, and since he is getting away with it, he'll probably continue to do it.
 
#31 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by slylives View Post
I am so sorry that you are going through this, it sounds absolutely dreadful and I hope you can at least enjoy a nice, relaxing Christmas evening. Make that a large glass of wine!

But I wanted to comment on what the police officer said to you: ABSOLUTE RUBBISH. For full disclosure, I am not a lawyer but a law student, and I've just finished a Family Law class with a practitioner who specialises in divorce and child custody. Just a few things I wanted to pass on:

1. It is, technically, possible to be found in civil contempt of a custody order. But in reality, it is extremely rare and would certainly require more than a refusal to hand a child over for a visit that breaches a standing agreement for one day. (In fact your ex is much more likely to be found in contempt than you.)

2. To be found in criminal contempt is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. Criminal contempt is a much higher standard than merely civil contempt. You would have to be breaching parenting time or support obligations on a systematic basis for the court to even consider this. (And they almost never do. The jails are overflowing - do you really think they are going to waste cell space on a mother who resisting handing over her child for an unagreed-to visit?) I'm actually quite angry about what the polcieman said - he's an idiot. The idea that custody could be reversed, or you could go to jail for this - an absolute nonsense. I can't even articulate how ridiculous that notion is (maybe I rethink the law as a career :)).

3. To change a custody order, the courts look to whether or not there have been significant changes in the child's circumstances (re-marriage of the custodial parent, parent seeks to relocate, etc) and if so, whether a change of custody would be in the "best interest of the child." The events that you have described wouldn't even come close. I doubt you'd find a lawyer who would not laugh your husband out of the building if he suggested that custody should be changed because of a dispute about Christmas visits.

4. The most important one!! Please find yourself a decent lawyer, who can put your mind at rest that you are behaving perfectly reasonably. If you are struggling financially, go to Legal Aid, or get some recommendations and ask them if they do pro bono (free) work. Most lawyers are obligated to spend a certain number of hours per year on pro bono cases, you might be the one case they are looking for!

5. Repeat - that police officer is a jackass. And repeat. And repeat. He knows nothing about the law. Nothing.

Merry Christmas. I hope things work out for you. And please get a lawyer.

I forgot to say thank you for taking the time to write that!
 
#33 ·
You did the right thing. It's not a good idea to take custody risks on the advice of a law student who's someplace else and has no practical experience.

What I see here and in the descriptions of custody problems on this board is that courts and other officials won't generally act unless someone has actually done something wrong, and even then it's got to be something fairly serious. Disobeying a custody order is serious (and my guess is your old lawyer has learned through hard experience that if she doesn't make the threat, she has trouble keeping clients in line and helping them win their cases).

I'm sorry this was terrible. It's one Christmas, though, and there will be many more. You did the right thing for the long term.

Please make sure to send emails and document phone calls insisting on the child's return at the appropriate time. You want to make sure he can't make it look like you've acquiesced. And I agree that once the holidays are over, you need to seek, from the GAL, some way of handling this. And you need to document the request.

Please take some time for yourself today....
 
#34 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers View Post
You did the right thing. It's not a good idea to take custody risks on the advice of a law student who's someplace else and has no practical experience.

What I see here and in the descriptions of custody problems on this board is that courts and other officials won't generally act unless someone has actually done something wrong, and even then it's got to be something fairly serious. Disobeying a custody order is serious (and my guess is your old lawyer has learned through hard experience that if she doesn't make the threat, she has trouble keeping clients in line and helping them win their cases).

I'm sorry this was terrible. It's one Christmas, though, and there will be many more. You did the right thing for the long term.

Please make sure to send emails and document phone calls insisting on the child's return at the appropriate time. You want to make sure he can't make it look like you've acquiesced. And I agree that once the holidays are over, you need to seek, from the GAL, some way of handling this. And you need to document the request.

Please take some time for yourself today....

Thanks... I'm just so irritated that they won't do anything until after the damage is done. Ds has such a hard time with one overnight s I know that if he keeps him for three days it will be hell when I get him back. I've left voice mails for the GAL (who doesn't really like me and thinks I'm too attached) and I tried to sound calm and concerned rather than seriously upset (which is how I actually feel).

I'm going to take myself to a movie tonight and then drink some really good wine that a friend gave me for christmas. I may as well enjoy the free time tonight and worry about this tomorrow.
 
#35 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers View Post
Please make sure to send emails and document phone calls insisting on the child's return at the appropriate time. You want to make sure he can't make it look like you've acquiesced. And I agree that once the holidays are over, you need to seek, from the GAL, some way of handling this. And you need to document the request.
This needed to be repeated.

Send a neutrally-worded email back to your XH that says something to the effect of, "Our court-ordered custody agreement states that DS is to be returned to my care by XYZ date and time. I expect that he will be returned to me by then."

And then sit down tomorrow after you've calmed down a little bit, and put into letter form - to both your attorney and to the GAL - that this is the email you received (and quote it, with the date and time), and that it is your understanding that the custody agreement states that your child is supposed to be returned to your care as of XYZ date and time. I would also put in there the basic details - date, time, method of communication, etc. - of what happened the last time he pulled this. And then say, "Please advise as to what is expected of me, should XH violate the custody agreement again."

It DOES need to be in writing. Create a paper trail.

It doesn't matter if the GAL thinks you're "too attached". A court order is a court order.
 
#36 ·
ginger_rodgers and AlwaysByMySide have you given you excellent advice. In the eyes of the court, two wrongs do not make a right, and you will lose any credibility if you go down the road of violating the order. It's a tough lesson to learn, but the courts will do nothing to help until and unless a violation occurs. It sucks, but if you mind your p's and q's while your ex doesn't you will eventually gain leverage.
 
#37 ·
i was in the same boat and please please dont let your anger make decisions. it's hard to see your child suffer, i too had to deal with dd's behavioral issues everytime she back from her dad. it's tough but hang in there and hopefully there will be a resolution soon...
hang in there...
 
#38 ·
Mods -- yep, this is mama41; please contact me if there are UA/username problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlwaysByMySide View Post

Send a neutrally-worded email back to your XH that says something to the effect of, "Our court-ordered custody agreement states that DS is to be returned to my care by XYZ date and time. I expect that he will be returned to me by then."

And then sit down tomorrow after you've calmed down a little bit, and put into letter form - to both your attorney and to the GAL - that this is the email you received (and quote it, with the date and time), and that it is your understanding that the custody agreement states that your child is supposed to be returned to your care as of XYZ date and time. I would also put in there the basic details - date, time, method of communication, etc. - of what happened the last time he pulled this. And then say, "Please advise as to what is expected of me, should XH violate the custody agreement again."
Yes, I think this was good.

Quote:
It doesn't matter if the GAL thinks you're "too attached". A court order is a court order.
It is, but I also think that what the GAL believes matters. What that means is that you have to agree with the GAL and see the error of your ways, and reform. So don't run to her with more of his threats unless your ex has already made good on the threat, and unless the child's in mortal danger, keep it light and neutral.
 
#39 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers View Post
It is, but I also think that what the GAL believes matters. What that means is that you have to agree with the GAL and see the error of your ways, and reform. So don't run to her with more of his threats unless your ex has already made good on the threat, and unless the child's in mortal danger, keep it light and neutral.
Oh, I think what I said didn't come out the way I meant it. I DO think what the GAL thinks matters, in the grand scheme of things. (Been there, done that.)

That said, it's a lot easier to fight on black and white issues. And with this particular black and white issue, that should go before the court the next go-round, is that the court order says what it says. Period. And the XH willfully violated it. Thought about beforehand this time, even. (And was dumb enough to put it in writing.) So, on the issue of violating the court order, the GAL really shouldn't be standing up in court and saying, "Oh, it was okay for the XH to violate the court order, because the mom is too attached." That's nice that the GAL thinks that, but that's not this particular issue. It's not what the court order says. A court order is called an "order", not a "suggestion".


I hope that makes sense!
 
#40 ·
Ex just called from his house (couple of hours away). Like I said before, the court order stated that ds was to be returned tonight at 6, which is clearly not going to happen. Ex called because ds said, "Call mama phone" over and over. Ds got on the phone with me and kept saying "mama? Come." It was really sad. He didn't seem necessarily upset, just really missing me.

The police said to call them if ex doesn't return ds and the police will file a formal complaint. I am really feeling like ex is probably going to return ds tomorrow, even though he said Sunday. He said it was obvious that ds misses me even though he's behaving ok. I think that ex just wants to prove that he can keep ds if he wants to, but I don't think he'll keep him through sunday if ds is clearly wanting me. I'm afraid that filing the complaint is going to make things much, much messier, but if I don't file a complaint, then I don't have a leg to stand on when I later complain about this.

Suggestions? If I do call the police, it should probably be soon. WWYD?
 
#41 ·
I'm surprised the police aren't helping you. We had the opposite experience. One day dss's mom (noncustodial) said she wasn't going to send dss to school the next day. Dh told her that he wasn't going to drop dss off if she wasn't going to take him to school the next day. 30 min later the police where at the door with her to "discuss" the issue. The word "kidnapping" was thrown around. I don't understand why the wont do anything. The order says the child is suppose to arrive at X time, they aren't there. You don't know where your child is, except that he is with his noncustodial parent. When does it become kidnapping?
 
#42 ·
Having BTDT with an ex making a power move - you need to contact the police, if only to let your ex know you won't be bullied and to set precedence - you mean business. I hate when exes (male or female) throw their weight around.
 
#43 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by nursemummy View Post
Having BTDT with an ex making a power move - you need to contact the police, if only to let your ex know you won't be bullied and to set precedence - you mean business. I hate when exes (male or female) throw their weight around.
I'm getting my paperwork together now and I think my only choice is calling the cops to at least get this documented. Otherwise I'm afraid the judge is going to say that I didn't care enough to report it.
 
#44 ·
I would go ahead and call the police. At the very least, to make a formal report. If your XH is hours away, it may actually be out of your police department's jurisdiction. Is it in the same county? You may want to call the Sheriff's office instead.

Did you get in touch with your attorney yet?
 
#45 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlwaysByMySide View Post
I would go ahead and call the police. At the very least, to make a formal report. If your XH is hours away, it may actually be out of your police department's jurisdiction. Is it in the same county? You may want to call the Sheriff's office instead.

Did you get in touch with your attorney yet?
He actually lives out of state, so the police won't actually *do* anything, but they will document the fact that court orders were violated. I literally have my jacket on now and just got off the phone with an officer who is going to meet me at the station to get all the information. I think it's good he's out of state--that way I can use the report if I want to, but it's not like X will necessarily know I filed a report unless I tell him. If he returns ds tomorrow morning like I *think* he will, then I won't ever tell him I filed a formal grievance. If he doesn't return ds until Sunday, then I will go to court Monday with my papers.

My attorneys never called me today, nor did the GAL. I suppose everyone is off for the day, although you'd think the GAL would have checked her cell phone.
 
#47 ·
I think he needs to know that you're filing a report. He's bullying you and he's not going to stop unless you make him stop. I hope you get your son back soon.


Lisa
 
#49 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers View Post
Mods -- yep, this is mama41; please contact me if there are UA/username problems.

Does this mean you are back? I have really missed your honestly and though we did not always agree your advice is sound.
 
#50 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flor View Post
I'm surprised the police aren't helping you. We had the opposite experience. One day dss's mom (noncustodial) said she wasn't going to send dss to school the next day. Dh told her that he wasn't going to drop dss off if she wasn't going to take him to school the next day. 30 min later the police where at the door with her to "discuss" the issue. The word "kidnapping" was thrown around. I don't understand why the wont do anything. The order says the child is suppose to arrive at X time, they aren't there. You don't know where your child is, except that he is with his noncustodial parent. When does it become kidnapping?
I have to say I am also surprised! I had a judge in CA tell me that "first and foremost I am responsible for my dd and IF there is a situation where I do not feel the situation is in the best interest of my dd then I can always say NO!" There may be items later to resolve either thru mediation or court but since I have a track record of being reasonable and accommodating to dd's dad and putting dd's needs first I am confident that would be apparent.

Just an idea to meditate on but ---- I think your ex should pick up ds from your house and you pick up from his house to avoid all of this.
 
#51 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveOhm View Post
I have to say I am also surprised! I had a judge in CA tell me that "first and foremost I am responsible for my dd and IF there is a situation where I do not feel the situation is in the best interest of my dd then I can always say NO!" There may be items later to resolve either thru mediation or court but since I have a track record of being reasonable and accommodating to dd's dad and putting dd's needs first I am confident that would be apparent.

Just an idea to meditate on but ---- I think your ex should pick up ds from your house and you pick up from his house to avoid all of this.
I don't think that me picking him up would avoid anything. He's not going to give him back. I can show up at his house and it's not like I can physically pull ds away. I just talked to him and he said that he is going to keep ds through tomorrow. I was fairly confident that he'd let him come home today, but I guess I was fooling myself.

I woke up feeling so... empty. Ds has never been gone this long before. I didn't get to sleep until five and it's now 9... I'm sure exhaustion is contributing to my emotional state. I really miss ds and I'm just so mad that no one thinks this is important enough to stop. Who is supposed to protect my son? The GAL certainly isn't doing anything. The police won't help. At what point will someone realize that maybe ds is a bit young to be with someone for this long whom he doesn't know all that well? I'm just so... heartbroken.
 
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