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#61 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 07:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Emilie2 View Post

http://unplannedpregnancy.blogspot.com/2011/09/im-pregnantis-adoption-for-me.html

 

 

This is an adoption expert who specializes in getting birth mothers to give up their babies- these are her tactics. Maybe this is something you feel is better then my pamphlet. It makes me sick.


I don't think tactics should be used to convince women to give up their babies.  I have made that clear.  However, I don't think there is anything wrong with parents considering just how hard it is to raise a baby - its hard work!  Mothers should be prepared for that, they shouldn't just be told its all unicorns farting butterflies either.  You're a mom - its HARD.  It's worth it, absolutely 100% worth it - but that doesn't get rid of the fact that its hard hard work.  When discussing parenting both sides - the joy and the hardships - should be given weight.

 



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http://www.nancyeffay.com/

 

Just food for thought- tell me what you think of this site? I am just curious....


Creepy.  Just down right creepy (I hope its a joke site - its really bad).  I only read one entry (the one with the red headed boy in it and I didn't get all the way through it), but its creepy.  Children should know about adoption, they should know they were adopted, and as much of their story as is known to the parents (this is different with each situation - in some cases there is more information available, and in some there is less - but all known info should be shared).  I don't think that adoption records should be sealed, but I think there should only be members of the triad able to access them (or maybe only the child/birth mother - dont' know exactly how I feel about that).  Birth mothers should also have the right to privacy if thats what they want, but thats tricky to balance against a childs need and right to know - there is no perfect solution.

 

ETA - I read the "about" section, and now I know why I don't like her.  Nothing I can post, sadly, but umm...yeah.

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#62 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 07:47 AM
 
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i do think it's a spoof.


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#63 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 07:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Emilie2 View Post

i do think it's a spoof.



I hope it is, although there probably are people who feel that way about adoption (and they probably shouldn't be allowed to adopt).

 

ETA - the websites you posted make me wonder - are you seeing what I'm saying, which is, adoption CAN be a good thing, and just freaking out because you think its bad?  I know you said you don't think it should NEVER happen, but you haven't posted when you think its appropriate, and just keep shoving down my throat thats its bad for me to think its a good thing - even though I keep saying over and over again that I think it should be transparent, ethical, and as out in the open as possible (ie, maybe not a conversation you have with every single person you ever come across, but not kept secret).

 

Did you really think I would LIKE the last 2 sites you posted based on what I have said?

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#64 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 08:10 AM
 
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exactly.


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#65 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 08:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Emilie2 View Post

exactly.



I think we posted at the same time - I posted an ETA when you posted this.

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#66 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 08:28 AM
 
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I am a birth mom to a few children and I don't agree at all with the "adoption is bad" mindset.  I don't appreciate when people speak and make it sound like they are representing all birth parents either.  There is a lot of corruption and bs that needs to be fixed within the adoption system...sure.  There is also a lot of bs and bad things that happen within "natural" families too.  Nothing is perfect.  Especially when it comes to something as huge and complicated as having families and raising children.

 

I just wanted to throw out there that I am a happy birth mom.  So far my kids are happy adoptees.  If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask or pm me. :)


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#67 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 01:07 PM
 
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Are you part of a closed or open adoption?


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#68 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 01:10 PM
 
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I know you... I remember you do you remember me?  I know your adoptive mom too- she is great. Yes- I agree- You are in a great situation.... I know your story and I follow your adoptive moms AJA's blog.


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#69 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 01:12 PM
 
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I don't think people are aware of what goes on all the time behind the scenes.  To the naked eye- my life looked great. You look a little deeper and find the adoption issues run deep in my family.


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#70 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 01:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Emilie2 View Post

I don't think people are aware of what goes on all the time behind the scenes.  To the naked eye- my life looked great. You look a little deeper and find the adoption issues run deep in my family.



Minus the word adoption in this sentence, this is true for so so so many families. In all different circumstances.

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#71 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 01:17 PM
 
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I am so sick of hearing that really. I know my story I know why my family is the way it was and why my place in it was and is how it is....  I am done with discussing this.... unlike you I have long lasting effects from my adoption and it is difficult for me to talk about.


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#72 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 01:19 PM
 
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I don't get why you don't believe me that I have issues stemming from adoption that would cause me to not want other children to go thru what I did.  I don't get why you care so much about how I feel about it....


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#73 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 02:37 PM
 
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Yes I remember you.  You and your behavior on threads like this is what got me and other birth moms kicked out of the adoption forum (I don't mean you specifically, but the group of anti-adoption posters that were so active on MDC back then).  I have children placed in more than one adoptive family, and it has not all been fairy tales and roses.  It can be hard.  LIFE is hard.  But it does not mean I agree with you that all adoptions are bad and that all birth moms and adoptees end up traumatized.  I'm sorry that you had a bad experience.  And I am glad that you feel comfortable talking about it now.  But your experience does not speak for everyone.  And that seems to be what you are implying whether you are meaning to or not.

 

And one adoption is extremely open, the other...not as much.  I have more adoption experience than just those two situations, but I can't speak about most of it online for privacy reasons.


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#74 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 02:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Emilie2 View Post

I am so sick of hearing that really. I know my story I know why my family is the way it was and why my place in it was and is how it is....  I am done with discussing this.... unlike you I have long lasting effects from my adoption and it is difficult for me to talk about.

 

<copied from next post>

 

I don't get why you don't believe me that I have issues stemming from adoption that would cause me to not want other children to go thru what I did.  I don't get why you care so much about how I feel about it....



Yes, I do believe you that adoption has caused you pain, and your family pain.  I do believe you - I just don't think that growing up and having problems related to something that happened in life is unique. All families have some sort of issue, and all people experience some kind of pain growing up, and there are people from ALL different situations in life that grow up traumatized by their experiences. Some kids have serious issues from growing up in traumatic foster homes, some grow up in orphanages and never have an adult person in their life that loves them, some kids are abused by their natural parents, some kids have parents who die when they are young, some kids have serious medical problems that prevent them from living a normal life, some kids have.......blah blah blah blah.....some kids say they are all screwed up b/c they were an only child, some kids are screwed up b/c they had 10 siblings and were ignored, etc, etc, etc.

 

Growing up with issues is not unique. Some things may have been issues if you weren't adopted.  Some may not have been. You may have had OTHER issues if you hadn't been. You will never know what our life would have been like if you hadn't been adopted b/c you can't go back in time and change it.  I'm sorry that it has caused you pain - that does not mean that ALL adopted children will experience it in the same way.  I understand that you do not want other people to experience the same problems that you have - that is a very normal thing to feel - however children grow up in imperfect situations. Unfortunately, thats a fact of life. Your OWN children are growing up in an imperfect situation b/c they are not living with both of their natural parents - you divroced.  Not perfect.  MY son is growing up with a single mom - guess he shouldn't be here b/c its imperfect right?  There is no way to protect children from lifes imperfections - we can ONLY teach them and give them the tools with which to deal with it and grow from it and become stronger.  Thats it.  It sucks.  It's not perfect.  It's called LIFE.

 

ETA - I guess my only point is that I would MUCH prefer a child go through pain because they HAVE a family that loves them, than go through that same amount of pain or more because they DO NOT have a family that loves them.  Which is what DOES happen when children grow up in orphanages without adults who care about them, or in crappy foster homes (which do exist, even though the foster parents on MDC are probably much better than average)

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#75 of 107 Old 11-17-2011, 03:06 PM
 
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Minus the word adoption in this sentence, this is true for so so so many families. In all different circumstances.



Exactly . . .


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#76 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 08:48 AM
 
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It is a hard concept to understand in our culture I get that. If it was not for lots of personal work and reading and discussing with a lot of people I would not have been able to pin point my adoption as a traumatic experience. Do I think kids should grow up in orphanages- NO!  I never said that. I think if kids are adopted there are things that can be done to minimize the trauma- for one by acknowledging it if it surfaces.

 


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#77 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 10:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Emilie2 View Post

It is a hard concept to understand in our culture I get that.

 


No, it isn't a hard concept to understand that children can be traumatized by any number of things that happen to them, or that are parts of their childhood.  Thats a very easy concept, and is one that is understood by many.  What I'm NOT understanding is how you can just repeat yourself over and over again, and not answer a single one of my questions - you said you would, and then hoped I would forget or something.  What I also don't understand is that you cannot seem to admit that there are MANY things that traumatize children - not just adoption.

 

Quote:
If it was not for lots of personal work and reading and discussing with a lot of people I would not have been able to pin point my adoption as a traumatic experience. Do I think kids should grow up in orphanages- NO!  I never said that.

 

So if they shouldn't grow up in orphanages, and shouldn't be adopted, but don't have parents, what should happen to them?

 

 

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I think if kids are adopted there are things that can be done to minimize the trauma- for one by acknowledging it if it surfaces.

 

I agree with this - but this is a FAR cry from being anti-adoption, which is what you seem to imply repeatedly on this thread and others.

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#78 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 12:16 PM
 
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What are your questions? If you are asking me for the solution I don't have it. I think the $40,000 that people put into adoption to buy a baby could be used to help struggling families stay in tact rather then adopt the child out.


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#79 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 12:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Emilie2 View Post

What are your questions? If you are asking me for the solution I don't have it. I think the $40,000 that people put into adoption to buy a baby could be used to help struggling families stay in tact rather then adopt the child out.



Why don't you go look at the thread?  I really don't feel like going to dig them up - again.

 

People adopt so that they can raise children. They don't adopt so that they can drop $40,000 on someone they don't know who may not successfully parent anyway.  And its not "buying a baby" (at least not when its done ethically - which is the only type of adoption I support). Most babies who are adopted don't have parents for one reason or another. Once a baby has been given up, they aren't getting taken back by their bio-families, particularly in the case of abandonment since the parents can't be found anyway. Babies aren't often taken from just struggling families. I don't really care to discuss the type of convincing a mother to give her baby up that you were bringing up earlier, b/c I don't support that - so going around in circles about how neither of us supports it doesn't do any good.

 

I would like to see more in the way of support for struggling families, but I don't think being anti-adoption would help that cause in any way. It may lessen the already very small number of infants available to adopt in the US to some degree, but it won't get rid of the need for foster families and adoptive families.

 

I will say that I don't support the more common practices of hopeful adoptive parents paying money to birth mothers, or in any way covering her medical expenses or housing expenses. That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I think it would work much better if money that would be used towards those expenses was paid to the agency, and agencies used it to help struggling birth mom's - that way there are no personal feelings of indebtedness to the adoptive parents on the part of the birth mother (which is something your pamphlet thingy pointed out as a problem). I think there are ways to make adoption better, but I don't think being anti-adoption is the way to get there.

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#80 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 12:38 PM
 
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nm


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#81 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 01:01 PM
 
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I have been reading this thread the past few pages and while I have many opinions about adoption, mostly in line with emilie2, I have held off joining in. But the comments about "buying babies" and financial burden spurred me to jump in. As long as there is any money to be made by anyone facilitating adoptions, there will be corruption and "baby selling". It may not look like it, on the surface; it may look like people just getting paid for the job they are doing (the noble job of finding wonderful, loving families for all the babies whose mothers recognize their own incompetence and unselfishly place the child with a deserving but infertile couple). But we know that while there are good people working hard with little pay for good causes, most are driven by the bottom line. Adoption is an industry. Many people in it profit from the suffering of mothers who don't feel they have other options, in the US and other countries. It is completely wrong and unethical to adopt a child from anywhere and not be actively working for the betterment of mothers and children in the chosen area.  Yes, there are children who truly, desperately, need homes, but they are the minority.


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#82 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 01:07 PM
 
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Thank you.


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#83 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 01:08 PM
 
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I have been thru the thread- you are not asking questions you are trying to get me to agree with you- and I won't.


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#84 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 05:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Emilie2 View Post

I have been thru the thread- you are not asking questions you are trying to get me to agree with you- and I won't.


What am I trying to get you to agree with?  That children who live in orphanages (and there are MANY MANY THOUSANDS of children doing just that TODAY - their wonderful mommies and daddies aren't coming back for them) shouldn't live there with absolutely ZERO hope of having anyone love them ever?  Yeah, maybe

 



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Originally Posted by jess in hawaii View Post

I have been reading this thread the past few pages and while I have many opinions about adoption, mostly in line with emilie2, I have held off joining in. But the comments about "buying babies" and financial burden spurred me to jump in. As long as there is any money to be made by anyone facilitating adoptions, there will be corruption and "baby selling". It may not look like it, on the surface; it may look like people just getting paid for the job they are doing (the noble job of finding wonderful, loving families for all the babies whose mothers recognize their own incompetence and unselfishly place the child with a deserving but infertile couple). But we know that while there are good people working hard with little pay for good causes, most are driven by the bottom line. Adoption is an industry. Many people in it profit from the suffering of mothers who don't feel they have other options, in the US and other countries. It is completely wrong and unethical to adopt a child from anywhere and not be actively working for the betterment of mothers and children in the chosen area.  Yes, there are children who truly, desperately, need homes, but they are the minority.

 

The bolded is NOT the only situation in which children are placed for adoption.  Seriously - if thats what you think, then you are very sorely mistaken. Thats not even CLOSE to why the majority of children are in foster care of orphanages all over the world right now.  And, it also shows that you didn't read the thread.  I DO NOT THINK THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE FORCED, OR CONVINCED, OR COERCED, OR PAID TO GIVE UP THEIR CHILDREN.

 

STOP MAKING ME OUT TO BE SOME BABY BUYING BITCH.  I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF UNETHICAL ADOPTION PRACTICES.  SO STOP ACTING LIKE I AM.
 

 

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#85 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 06:41 PM
 
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Did you read my whole comment, including the last line?? Sometimes adoption is appropriate. Alot of times it's not. In any case where a child is "placed" for adoption, there is a likelyhood of coercion to one degree or another. Most mothers do not want to "place" their children, they just don't feel they have options. Children in other countries are "placed" because there is a breakdown in the social system which leaves the mother unsupported and desperate. These children don't need to be adopted, they need social change in their countries of birth so that they can stay with their families. But as long as there is money to be made, there will be corruption. Furthermore, I have known several families with children adopted abroad, and yet not a single one of them was in any way active in working for change to the policies which create so many abandoned children. Frankly, it's disgusting. The same can be said for domestic adoptions too. If there was active social change to accept and support mothers in less than ideal circumstances, there would be no adoption industry. Are there times when children are truly without fit parents? Sure, but those, as I said before, are the very small minority, In other words, if you really want a child, take one of the kids in foster care who come from situations of abuse, have disabilities and are otherwise disadvantaged.THEY need loving homes. But hands off the ones who's mothers are just scared.

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#86 of 107 Old 11-18-2011, 08:36 PM
 
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Sometimes adoption is appropriate. When is it appropriate?

 

Furthermore, I have known several families with children adopted abroad, and yet not a single one of them was in any way active in working for change to the policies which create so many abandoned children. So, if I adopt a child from China, how would you suggest I work for change to policies in that country? I am aware of orphanges filled to the brim there, especially with SN children. Our dd2 has bilateral club foot so we are open to that, and there are so many abandoned with even slight issues over there. Tons of big issues too, cleft palate, anemia, heart problems etc.

 

Frankly, it's disgusting. The same can be said for domestic adoptions too. If there was active social change to accept and support mothers in less than ideal circumstances, there would be no adoption industry. If there truly were no adoption industry, what do you think would happen to the abortion rate in the US? If women (and girls) don't feel they can give their babies up to a good home, would they carry them? (Actually I have known several teens with unexpected pregnancies in the last few years as my daughter finished high school, and all three of them have happily kept their babes with support from their families. One is even in college. There doesn't seem to be that stigma of the unwed mother even for young gals.)

Emilie2 you could try to answer these too if you are still reading.

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#87 of 107 Old 11-19-2011, 08:17 AM
 
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When is it appropriate-

When the parents are deceased and there is NO family member able to take the child

When the parents are severely mentally ill( schizoprhenic)

When the parents are heavily on drugs and been thru treatment to no avail and even then I think legal guardianship is the answer.

 

Fighting for social change- well step one is not partaking in the corruption- not profiting or benefiting off others losses.

 

There are many adoptees who are pro abortion- I am not one of them.... tho I do understand where they are coming from and it does not matter to me if the abortion rate goes up in all honesty tho I do think education is important there to that the women having the abortions have an idea the impact it will have on their life.

 

Adoption is not the answer to fertility problems.

 


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#88 of 107 Old 11-19-2011, 08:25 AM
 
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Exactly, emilie2! (except I do have strong feelings about abortion)

 


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#89 of 107 Old 11-19-2011, 09:26 AM
 
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Quote:

Adoption is not the answer to fertility problems.

 



I don't understand this.  So, only people who can give birth should be allowed to adopt?  Am I somehow going to be a better parent because I don't have fertility issues?

 

There are MANY, many, many parents who have never given their children up for adoption, and these children suffer from abuse and neglect.  There should be more children up for adoption-- not less.  Of course, when it's done unethically or for self-serving reasons of the family (family is embarrassed), then it goes without saying that it's wrong, but I can't imagine anyone on MDC being OK with adoption under those circumstances, so it's redundant to bring up.


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Mizelenius is offline  
#90 of 107 Old 11-19-2011, 10:04 AM
 
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When people want a baby- and they are infertile and they try and try to have a baby of their own- and they can't. The next option is adoption- which is a for many couples their last resort, least desirable option.  Try to be that child.  Those are some big shoes to fill.  Adoption does not heal infertility it just causes more problems.

In my case my adoptive parents tried for 8 years to have a baby.... after 3 months of having me they got pregnant and got to have their own child.Their real child and I was not their real child. That was a fun place to be.  EDUCATION is important.


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