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Child Custody Laws PA- Happy Update #41!!

8K views 51 replies 20 participants last post by  aussie1113 
#1 ·
I know a lot of people said in another thread that overnight visits aren't usually granted for newborns?

I've been trying to find the laws for PA in regards to this. My lawyer consult skirted the question when I asked about this, but led me to beleive it may be possible for STBX to get overnights before one year of age with the LO I'm currently carrying.

I'm freaking out this morning, because I've been reading articles and such on separation anxiety and other pyscological damage early overnights can cause on young children.

I had printed the one off and gave it to STBX. He reacted much as I thought he would.


Telling me how F*ed up I am and what a load of BS, and how out of my mind and selfish I am to think he won't be getting overnights with his baby. I told him it was in the best interest of the baby, and I was in no way trying to keep him from his baby. DD has overnights with him now, but I'm just asking that overnights do not start until at least one year of age.

He went on again about how selfish I am and that any judge will just tell me, "you better get to pumping".


It's not even the pumping part/supply worry that has me... I'm scared of the possible pyscological damage of seperating a newborn from their Mama and what kind of security and attachment issues that is going to cause!!

Not to mention how I went through PPD/separation anxiety with DD when I had to go back to work... I am never going to make it through a whole day/night away from a newborn.


I'm seriously freaking out right now.

STBX told me I should have thought of this before I left him and it proves how selfish I am and how I always want my way. Basically I made my bed and now I have to sleep in it...
 
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#2 ·


That last part only proves that it was impertitive you leave him. What a load of BS.

Try not to freak out. Doing so is giving him power back. He has barely a leg to stand on, and the more you are stressing about this, the more fuel it gives him to make your life HELL, which is what he strives to do.

Honestly, I cant see any judge allowing a NEWBORN to be away from its mother overnight. Infant could be a different story, but not a newborn.

Next time this comes up, remind your stbx of how often he helped with overnights when your DD was that small. um, NEVER?!?!?! And now he expects to do it without any help? Thats kinda laughable. Hes blowing smoke, try not to buy into it. abusers like him rarely follow through.
 
#3 ·
from this LLL page (http://www.llli.org/llleaderweb/LV/LVJunJul05p51.html):
"There are only three states that address breastfeeding and custody/visitation in their statutes: Maine, Michigan, and Utah. . . . The lack of a statute does not mean that a judge cannot consider breastfeeding issues in determining visitation or custody. Courts will consider the child's best interests in dealing with family law issues."

there is also some visitation info on this page, under breastfeeding & family law.
http://www.llli.org/Law/LawUS.html?m=0,1,0

STOP TALKING TO HIM. his opinion does not matter. what matters is your ability to make your case before the judge. when it comes down to it, he probably won't want to take your infant overnight anyway because it's too hard. i have some very strong supporting evidence here - he's already been flaking out on some of his parenting time with your dd, and he has dumped dsd off onto you since DAY 1 of your relationship. he does not give a crap about time with his baby. he just wants to continue messing with you. don't give him the opportunity.

much love, mama.
 
#4 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by doubledutch View Post

STOP TALKING TO HIM. his opinion does not matter. what matters is your ability to make your case before the judge. when it comes down to it, he probably won't want to take your infant overnight anyway because it's too hard. i have some very strong supporting evidence here - he's already been flaking out on some of his parenting time with your dd, and he has dumped dsd off onto you since DAY 1 of your relationship. he does not give a crap about time with his baby. he just wants to continue messing with you. don't give him the opportunity.

much love, mama.
Listen to this smart lady.
And I want to reiterate -- every time you talk to him, you give him another chance to mess with your head. This might be a good time to stipulate that all discussions will take place via email.
Grrr, I'd love to give that man a piece of my mind.
 
#5 ·
Ok, JSMa - take a deep breath. Calm down. Relax.

You're not going to like what I'm about to say, but bear with me.

I think you should ask that there be no overnights until your baby is 1yo. However, I think you should be prepared for the judge to disagree with you. It will NOT be the end of the world. Your baby will be OK. It's not ideal, but its not the end of the world either.

Asking for no more than one night away from you per week is completely reasonable for a baby under 1yo, and I think a judge would be perfectly willing to accommodate you on that.

AND - when you ask your lawyer a question, ask for specifics. Like - has he ever had a judge order overnights with an infant? What about a newborn? How long will a judge think its reasonable for your ex to have no overnights? How long should you expect your infants visits to be with ex? How often? Can you make sure that she goes on overnights WITH her sister (or his sister) so that there is a comfort in having a sibling with her? (I think that would be beneficial - experts may or may not disagree with me I'm NOT an expert on this stuff!!)

Your baby is NOT HERE YET!!!!! It's June. Your baby is due in NOVEMBER (if I remember correctly) - still 6 months away! Take another deep breath. Have all conversations go between your lawyers - that helps keep some of the emotion out of it. It also means that you don't have to try and talk sense into your ex - which is a HUGE relief!!! Trust me on that one! Let his attorney listen to how little he cares about anything but himself - anyone really so long as its not you. Have your lawyer send some of those articles (when the time is right) to your ex's lawyer. Make it clear they will be used as evidence in a custody trial. Make it obvious that you are NOT trying to keep baby away from your ex - just trying to go with baby's best interest.

Deep breaths honey. Baby is still baking, and not going anywhere yet. Cross that bridge when you get to it. Your ex might not even want overnights (remember how hard it is to have an infant overnight??). You might want a repreive one night out of every 2 weeks (remember how hard it is to have an infant overnight??) I can't imagine it as a single mama - keep your mind and heart open to the possibilities. Infants are resilient for a reason.
 
#7 ·
I too think you need to stop having any discussions with him, or expecting him to agree with you on anything. He won't. He'll be difficult about anything simply because he knows it bothers you. (My ex shares this charming quality.)

Regarding his heart-warming statement, "any judge will just tell me, 'you better get to pumping'. " ...even if that's true (and it may not be!), don't take your ex's word for it... let a judge tell you that. Since your ex is not a judge, he doesn't get to decide. He'll only bully you when you try to discuss anything with him, so keep doing what you think is right and you have nothing to lose. Don't give in to something you don't feel is right, unless you legally have to, and as far as I know you haven't even been to court yet, so your ex doesn't have a leg to stand on. Don't give him one!
 
#8 ·
He doesn't have access to email.


And everything I have read so far... it really matters not that I am breastfeeding... that's what pumps were made for.


I'm trying to focus on the psychological affects it has on a baby being bounced from place to place and setting up insecurities.

I haven't found anything so far that is easing my mind. Seems PA is an equal opportunity state, regardless of age. They used to follow the Tender Years Doctrine, but not anymore.

How can they honestly think overnights for a baby is not detrimental to a baby??!! I offered for him to see the baby everyday... which I know he won't do... because then when will he sleep? (his words, not mine). And it will interfere with his plan of watching DSD in the afternoons to avoid paying her extended care costs.
 
#9 ·
This is the same guy who expected you to COMPLETELY mother his young daughter, complained when your parents got excited about their first grandbaby (since his child with his ex should have 100% fulfilled this urge, even while they totally embraced her as a grandchild, just had the nerve to be happy about their own daughter having a baby), and then to top it off always disrespected your role in DSD's life by insisting the only thing she could call you was your first name. What a jerk!

This guy now wants you to believe he can take care of his older daughter and two babies? One of whom will be an infant? Please. What is he going to do -- enlist his next female partner to mother his kids while he tells her she doesn't count as a real caregiver either?

Ignore him. He's playing mind games with you again. Talk with your lawyer for advice, but at this stage, I would not be negotiating overnights with him -- he is just looking to see how much he can still control you. There will be time to sort out visitation after the baby is born. Just try to ignore this guy and focus on your pregnancy.
 
#10 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by JSMa View Post
He doesn't have access to email.


And everything I have read so far... it really matters not that I am breastfeeding... that's what pumps were made for.


I'm trying to focus on the psychological affects it has on a baby being bounced from place to place and setting up insecurities.

I haven't found anything so far that is easing my mind. Seems PA is an equal opportunity state, regardless of age. They used to follow the Tender Years Doctrine, but not anymore.

How can they honestly think overnights for a baby is not detrimental to a baby??!! I offered for him to see the baby everyday... which I know he won't do... because then when will he sleep? (his words, not mine). And it will interfere with his plan of watching DSD in the afternoons to avoid paying her extended care costs.
JSMa - DEEP BREATHS. Baby is in your womb. Safe and sound. You don't need to worry about her yet!! (I keep calling it a girl b/c you already have one girl - correct me if you know otherwise please!!)

Ask your lawyers the questions I put in my previous post. Use him flaking out on visits with your ODD as a reason. DON'T WORRY YET!! You may be able to negotiate most of this away anyway - b/c there isn't likely to be a custody trial before baby is born, and since YOU are giving birth to the baby, you'll have "factual custody" and have the upper hand.

He doesn't have access to email?? Huh? Ok, well then he can call your lawyer, and if its important you're lawyer can call you about it. You can tell your lawyer to tell your ex that when the baby is old enough he can have overnight visitation (thats a good vague, nondescript answer) and he doesn't even have to call you about it. Then, your lawyer can keep a record of how often your ex calls about it.

Stop worrying. Everything will be fine.

And, STOP focusing on the psychological damage it can do. Just STOP. Focus on that when you go to TRIAL - which could be when baby is over a year. Custody trials do NOT happen fast. They come up VERY slowly. You ARE NOT going to trial yet.
 
#13 ·
But what do I do in the meantime... I mean if there is no custody order in place and he wants to take the baby? My lawyer didn't have a good answer for that either. Said that the courts expect parents to negotiate it on their own until the court hearing for custody.

So what happens when he is there to pick up DD and starts ranting and raving that he wants to take new baby too for overnight? If I deny him, will I be made to look like I'm not granting him access to his child?

I had only wanted DD going overnight one night at a time... especially now that he is moving in with his abusive Mom and Stepdad!! Ugh! But as the law would likely grant full EOW visits for her... I didn't fight about it and have accepted there is nothing I can do but let her go for two nights... hope and pray to God that nothing happens to her there, and document away when it does, and pray it's not anything too traumatic.


This whole thing sucks. I like not having to deal with the craziness everyday... but I do feel selfish and like I'm left with no choice but to throw my kids to the wolves.
That whole house is toxic.
 
#14 ·
First, don't worry about overnights with the newborn until he or she is actually BORN. If you don't give your Ex/STBX the reaction he wants (ie make you scared and make you feel guilty) about the overnight issue, he'll most likely find something else to try to torture you with by the time the baby's born.

If he does start ranting and raving for any reason at pick-up or drop-off and won't leave alone when you ask him to*, then call 911 because you fear for your (and your child(ren)'s) safety due to his behavior.

* by asking him to leave alone, I mean something like "You need to leave until you can calm down. When you're able to behave calmly, you're welcome to come back and pick up DD."
That is NOT denying him access, simply asking him to go away to calm down so that he can return to pick up DD and behave appropriately when he does. (Of course, after you actually are divorced with a binding custody agreement, that might need to be adjusted... but as long as there is no court order, you should be fine asking him to calm down and then come back for pick-up.)
 
#15 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by JSMa View Post
But what do I do in the meantime... I mean if there is no custody order in place and he wants to take the baby? My lawyer didn't have a good answer for that either. Said that the courts expect parents to negotiate it on their own until the court hearing for custody.

So what happens when he is there to pick up DD and starts ranting and raving that he wants to take new baby too for overnight? If I deny him, will I be made to look like I'm not granting him access to his child?

I had only wanted DD going overnight one night at a time... especially now that he is moving in with his abusive Mom and Stepdad!! Ugh! But as the law would likely grant full EOW visits for her... I didn't fight about it and have accepted there is nothing I can do but let her go for two nights... hope and pray to God that nothing happens to her there, and document away when it does, and pray it's not anything too traumatic.


This whole thing sucks. I like not having to deal with the craziness everyday... but I do feel selfish and like I'm left with no choice but to throw my kids to the wolves.
That whole house is toxic.

You have to breathe. This will work out, okay?
You have six months to figure this out, so don't worry about it too much right now. But if, after the baby is born, he want to take her overnight, you tell him no. You tell him that it's not in the baby's best interests, that she's nursing and you won't allow it. You tell him that after the court has designated visitation, then he can see about overnights.
You will feel so so so so so much better if you can very deliberately take a step back from all this craziness and toxicity. Get zen. I know it all feels overwhelming and awful, but right now you're 100 percent playing into his hands. This is what he wants. He wants to create crazy toxic drama for you. You're still dancing the exact same dance, even though you're technically separated.
You will have no peace in your life until you learn how to emotionally disengage from this man. Until you learn how to not let him push your buttons. Until you stop being scared of him.
So please, mama, please. Deep breath. Don't panic. Be at peace with your world. Talk to that little baby growing in your belly and tell him/her that everything will be okay and mama will take care of everything.
 
#16 ·
maybe a good thing to focus on for now, would be that emotional disengagement mamajen is talking about. learning not to react to him, rebuilding self-confidence, and determining what you want life to be so that you know what you are working toward instead of letting him define everything that you are working against.
 
#17 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by JSMa View Post
But what do I do in the meantime...
You mean right now?? NOTHING! You're baby isn't here - he's not trying to take her for overnights tonight right? I mean, that's impossible! So, right now you focus on growing her big and strong.

And, after she's born, he can negotiate visitation through your lawyer. And you can say things like, "She nurses every 1.5hours all night long, has never slept more than 2 hours at a time, even napping, so it's really hard to be up with her all night long, I'm hardly getting any sleep at all, and it would be great if you could take her one night EOW so that I can get some good sleep....but be warned that she'll have you up ALLLLLLLLLLLL night long!"

And watch his face turn ashen at the thought of not being able to sleep, and then running the other way.

ETA - babies are resilient. repeat this to yourself as much as possible. Babies are RESILIENT. Your baby will be fine. Your baby will have a big sister and a mama who love her very very much - she will be FINE (I'm sorry I keep referring to the baby as a girl, I just hate using the term "it" for a person, yk?). Nothing in life is ideal, but we're all ok right? Baby will be OK.

ETA x2 - also, just don't talk to him about it. DOn't give him articles, don't mention it. Talk about your DD. Talk about how her weekend was, tell him when she ate last and last napped. Tell him she was really funny doing something cute earlier. ONLY talk to him about the issue at hand when you see him - aka your DD. Anything else, he can go through you're lawyer. That is the beauty of having a lawyer. USE THEM. I know its expensive, but your emotional health is WORTH IT.
 
#18 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by thyra View Post
You mean right now?? NOTHING! You're baby isn't here - he's not trying to take her for overnights tonight right? I mean, that's impossible! So, right now you focus on growing her big and strong.

And, after she's born, he can negotiate visitation through your lawyer. And you can say things like, "She nurses every 1.5hours all night long, has never slept more than 2 hours at a time, even napping, so it's really hard to be up with her all night long, I'm hardly getting any sleep at all, and it would be great if you could take her one night EOW so that I can get some good sleep....but be warned that she'll have you up ALLLLLLLLLLLL night long!"

And watch his face turn ashen at the thought of not being able to sleep, and then running the other way.


This EXACTLY.
 
#19 ·
This guy is so moody and all over the place that honestly, if you don't engage in the issue, in six months who knows... he may have forgotten or moved on to new prey. (Again, my ex, who attempts at control the way yours does, makes a huge stink over things if I say they bother me... but I've learned over time that if I don't discuss it, believe it or not he tends to forget his stance, and luckily you have several months.)

Are you going to file for divorce? Because that helps to set boundaries. It means that yes, he can come get your first child for visits. But there won't be anything (unless he goes back to court) that says he can take the second child for visits, and it will be at your discretion until he does go to court. So I think it would be to your advantage to file for divorce ASAP and get those boundaries down, before the new baby is born. You want to really establish those boundaries, so that he can't just show up and demand the new baby at his whim. He needs to learn that things issues aren't just between the two of you anymore, because when it's just you, he tries to bully you.
 
#20 ·
I think you are getting lots of great advice but think you should also try to talk to your local la leche league leader. I know our leader has experience helping momma's who had tiny nursing babies and ex's who wanted overnights. Also if you get lots of article save them and also see if you can get in contact with any the authors of the articles you wouldn't be able to admit the articles in regular courts but in family court their judges can relax evidence rules. Also I don't know if you are getting a guardian ad litem for your kids but if you are this is the kind of information you can give to a guardian ad litem.

Good Luck. You are amazing.
 
#21 ·
Okayyy... as a mom AND a legal secretary... I have to say you need a new lawyer. Seriously. And now.

No one else hs mentioned it above yet but your lawyer is skirting questions, not giving clear answers and leaving his client anxious and unanswered concerns.

Fire him, get a new lawyer and better answers. Now!
 
#24 ·
Great news about the new lawyer! I agree with the PP - do not engage, do not try to educate him, do not try to discuss it. That may work if he was a reasonable, caring person, but since he is the way he is all it will do is suck you into a nasty cycle again. Remind yourself that even if your older dd has EOW with his toxic family, she has a safe place to come home to, away from all of that. Your younger child will have safety and security in your home, and you made all of that possible by taking that leap and leaving him. It's not the best situation to have overnights for infants, but it will not scar her, she will be OK even if it does happen! Let us know how the lawyer consult goes.
 
#25 ·
I am so anxious for tomorrow! My parents are actually willing to help me with a retainer fee now to get a lawyer to nail down custody because STBX has been such a UAV the past couple weeks, that my parents are finally worried enough and feel the law needs to step in and help or he will be trying to control our lives forever until there is a clear cut custody order in place.

In regards to newborn overnights... what is really weird is in most threads I see here for custody schedules most people say that states usually have some normal guidelines that they follow for visitation schedule.

I called the custody office last week when I was panicking and they said PA has no set guidelines that each case is treated on a case by case basis and there is no normal. That I'd have to wait for a judge to decide.

That is really freaking scary!!!
How can there be no normal? What if I get a judge who has no clue about UAV abuser Dad's who only use their children as trophies and baragaining tools and ways to threaten their Mothers.

I only have four main questions for the lawyer tomorrow, and I hope I'm not missing anything really big. There is just so much to remember and my poor brain is having trouble keeping it all straight.

They are:
~ Have you ever had a judge order overnights with a newborn?

~ How long will a judge think it reasonable to have no overnights?

~ Does PA still go by a progressive vistation schedule if overnights aren't ordered right away? What is the general timeline for this to happen?

~ Can I get restricted access to paternal grandparents - as in, NEVER alone with STBX's Mom and Stepdad?

Can anyone think of anything else really important that should be covered in an initial consult? I only have a half hour. Thank you!
 
#26 ·
Ok, again, don't panic about overnights for the baking one right now. She isn't even here yet - there are no overnights to worry about!!

I would focus more on how that particular lawyer can help you to have a constructive relationship with your ex.

As in, initially, all my contact with my ex was through my lawyer - b/c I really needed to get my head on straight and not be under his spell anymore.

I would be asking:

Based on what happened, do I have grounds for some sort of restraining order that would require my ex to refrain from threatening me, intimidating me, etc but not restrict peaceful contact regarding the children?

Can you help me get an official (temporary) custody order through the court system until there is a final order? How does that work? [This is really important - most likely it would only cover your dd right now, and then the new babe would be added to it after she is born - might fend off some visitation from the start, unless you want to include some short daddy visits (1-2 hour chunks) from birth to next court date] Having a temp ORDER instead of a temp agreed schedule gives you the added security of, if he doesn't follow the schedule (ie, I can't come b/c I need to sleep) he's technically in contempt of court and can be jailed for it. The won't jail him for not showing up, but they could jail him for not returning either baby at the right time. And, it just looks bad if he isn't following the visitation schedule that HE wanted.

Those are the types of questions I would be asking. Tell him what you want as far as visitation for your babies, but you won't need to worry about the baking one right now since she isn't here! Make this meeting about the right now - thats what will be most helpful.

If you really want to ask about the new baby, ask at the end of the meeting about infant/newborn visitation schedules. Remember, this guy is being hired to do what you want - he will argue on your behalf, and do his best to get what you want, but he has no more of an idea what a judge is actually going to decide than you do. Judges decide for themselves, they have minds of their own, and we do what we can but we can't do it all.

Last edit I promise!! Regarding the paternal grandparents - do they see your dd alone right now? If they do, you'll have a very hard time getting that access limited further. You can try, but it will be very difficult most likely.
 
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