What would be "fair" to offer for visitation... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Back story...

Dated a guy for two months. He becamse verbally, emotionally and then a little physically abusive so I dumped him. He made threats- he wanted full custody at birth, whatever. It was all about an "heir to the throne" to get his inheritance from his Mother. I cut him off, no contact for 3 months. I don't really want him in my life, but I'm aware that legally, he could get a good amount of visitation if he goes there. He asked to come over to get his stuff- clothes, and his heart medicine, before it expires. I let him. (He's been in therapy and I have no problem with calling the police station across the street if he causes any trouble.) He seemed... not so much of a jerk? Don't get me wrong- I haven't forgotten what happened before, and I don't trust him as far as I can throw him, but I'm trying to think of the baby's best interest, which would be to not have drama between the two of us. Anyways, his Mother wants NOTHING to do with the baby, will disinherit him if he has any contact with me or the baby. (I've confirmed this from other sources.) He came over anyways, gave me his credit card and told me to order up to $420 worth of stuff online for the baby, brought groceries. He says he wants to be a Dad, he wants to work on his anger management issues. I'm not sure how to approach this situation. I want nothing to do with him. I don't trust him, because of before. IF he can be a loving Dad, it wouldn't be fair to keep the baby from him, but at the same time, HE was abused as a child and the cycle may continue, no matter how much help he tries to get himself. He no longer wants custody. He no longer wants to go to court for visitation. He's aware that he may have to pay for child support. He's agreeing to not being named on the birth certificate or having the baby have his last name. He was... I don't know how to explain it... super polite. At one point while he was here, he saw me rub my belly and asked if the baby was kicking. I said yes, and he asked if he could please feel, too. (What?! ASKING before doing so? Being polite and respectful? Never seen that before.) My Mom had a good point- if I can't legally prevent him from being around the baby, then perhaps I can teach him how to parent, so if it comes up, at least the baby will have a fighting chance. Anyways, how should I approach this, giving him the benefit of the doubt, without trusting him or putting myself in a bad situation?

My goal was/is to not have his name on the birth certificate and not have any court ordered visitation. If he can keep up this decency, he's willing to do things my way. I would prefer to have him visit my house to see the baby, as opposed to him taking the baby anywhere. (Also, if I need to document anything, I'll be there to see it.) If things continue the way they are now, would it be fair to offer to invite him over, say one night a week and maybe one afternoon every weekend? Providing he continues to behave.

Disclaimer: Those of you who know my story will tell me to have nothing to do with him. I agree- I wish I could do that. But that's not an option, so I'm trying to find the next best option. In all reality- if this goes to court, he will get visitation, probably starting at a couple months old, at his house, if he chooses. I want to avoid that at all costs. If I play my cards right, I will get mostly what I want, including full custody and his name not on the birth certificate.

I pray for the day Family Court recognizes that CHILDREN have rights, parents only have PRIVILEGES.  Only then, will I know my child is safe.
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#2 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 10:12 AM
 
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Mama, this is the same guy who wanted to watch you breastfeed because it turned him on. :Puke

RUN! as hard as it is, please stop taking money from him. Get away and stay away.

ETA, is his mother will dis-inherit him if he has anything to do with the baby, then what makes you think he WILL? I dont understand.......

I cant remember, do you know the sex of the baby?
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#3 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I know the sex of the baby- a boy- but I've gone through great pains to make sure HE doesn't yet know.

It's a gamble- I run, he may end up with unsupervised overnights and weekends with the baby, if he wants to be in the baby's life. I let him think I'm willing to work with him, we might be able to come up with a compromise I can live with, even if I don't really like. Sometimes you've got to actually be in the particular situation to fully understand the possible repercussions of what either of your actions would do. It's in my baby's best interest to not be alone with the father or any of the father's family.

I pray for the day Family Court recognizes that CHILDREN have rights, parents only have PRIVILEGES.  Only then, will I know my child is safe.
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#4 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 10:24 AM
 
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I know the sex of the baby- a boy- but I've gone through great pains to make sure HE doesn't yet know.

It's a gamble- I run, he may end up with unsupervised overnights and weekends with the baby, if he wants to be in the baby's life. I let him think I'm willing to work with him, we might be able to come up with a compromise I can live with, even if I don't really like. Sometimes you've got to actually be in the particular situation to fully understand the possible repercussions of what either of your actions would do. It's in my baby's best interest to not be alone with the father or any of the father's family.
Mama, you asked for opinions/advice, other wise you wouldnt be posting here. So that is my vote. I am willing to bet this (UAV) wont want to be an actual father. Thats what I pray for you anyway. That he will find something else to obsess over (or unfortunatly, someone else) and leave you and your kids alone. Because this cycle with him will NEVER EVER STOP. it will only get worse, and hes going to hurt you and your kids. Gaurenteed.
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#5 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 10:38 AM
 
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I'm confused: you say he's interested in the baby in order to get his mother's inheritance, but also that his mother will disinherit him if he has anything to do with the child. Which one? How much money are we talking here? And when does he get it? And, really, what type of old world craziness is this?
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#6 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm confused: you say he's interested in the baby in order to get his mother's inheritance, but also that his mother will disinherit him if he has anything to do with the child. Which one? How much money are we talking here? And when does he get it? And, really, what type of old world craziness is this?
Originally, his Mother would only give him his inheritance if he acknowledged and proved the baby was his. Now, his Mother doesn't care, doesn't want any grandchild of hers born from a "whore", 'cause the baby will be flawed, as well, so if he doesn't walk away, he won't get his inheritance. How much money? Not sure. She owns a house in NY, a house in Canada, and some property by the ocean in Greece. They're from Greece (I have nothing against Greek people), she imigrated when the baby's father was a baby, so I think that's where she gets that from. She wants him to walk away and "marry a nice Greek girl". I am the devil and the baby will be just like me, so she wants us out of their lives. We are not welcome in her or her family's lives or in her home. I guess he'll get the money when she dies? From her Will? The Mother gets what she wants, when she wants it. This could be the best thing that ever happened to me and the baby- I'm surprised he defied his Mother at all by coming to pick up his stuff at my house.

I pray for the day Family Court recognizes that CHILDREN have rights, parents only have PRIVILEGES.  Only then, will I know my child is safe.
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#7 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 11:43 AM
 
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If he's not named on the birth certificate, he will have to go to great lengths to prove the baby is his, right? And he might not even, given his history? He won't be able to just waltz away with the baby.

But DON'T take anything from him, that'd look bad when it comes time to argue paternity (if it comes to that). Just don't take anything from him, if he needs something from your house leave it in a bag on your front doorknob, don't talk to him on the phone, take emails instead of phone calls. Just don't interact with him. Really. You don't have to teach him how to parent. He can't just up and get visitation or custody without a fight. And maybe he'll lose interest before he goes through all the effort of a legal battle. If it comes to the worst case, say that he was stressing you out and you didn't want to be stressed when pregnant. That's not "mean" - you have a history of him stressing you out. Just. Ignore. Him. Really. Don't take anything from him. Don't concede that he's going to have rights as a parent. He may never have any rights at all. Just don't engage him. You two aren't married. He doesn't have "automatic" rights.
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#8 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 11:54 AM
 
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Wow, from reading your post, it seems that the cards have turned in your favour mama. Since MIL is now convinced that you're a whore and that your child isn't worth of the inheritance, she's also going to be pushing her son to get the heck away from you. She will also not permit him to bring the baby to her home, where he currently lives, right?

I say, USE THAT.

By spending time with him, by accepting things from him, you are setting a precedent which demonstrates that you do not consider him to be a threat to you and your child.

You don't intend on putting his name on the birth certificate, you know that he'll have to jump through a bunch of legal hoops to prove paternity and THEN to get court ordered visitation, and now you also know that his source of income--his mother--no longer supports his desire to be a father to the child. That buys you time. USE IT.

Continue on with No Contact, document the heck out of whatever communication you do get from him, file police reports whenever he does something illegal and/or abusive, and begin setting a precedent.

It doesn't matter that he's being nice and polite. At the core, he's an abuser and will eventually go back to his abusive ways.
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#9 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 11:57 AM
 
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And to plainly answer your thread title, Fair is not even a factor when dealing with men like this. Fair should be OFF the table, since he doesnt operate on "fair" mode anyway......
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#10 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 01:32 PM
 
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The less he is around, the less precedent there is that he has anything to do with the baby's care and the longer it would take for him to establish any sort of visitation. I get why you want to to supervise the visitation if it happens - I'd want to as well - but as I think I said in another post, if he's around and he wants the baby alone, that's what he'll go after anyway. That type of guy will do what he wants to do, and if he is indeed in the picture he'll get sick of seeing the baby where you are, especially if he has no control over you. Plus, with his mother changing her mind all the time, how do you know she won't change her mind again if she at some point sees a photo of the baby? I'd run like the wind.

It sounds that given the pressure from his mother and lack of conscience as a human being, he is very likely to drift away. So do not do anything to draw him back in, however well-meant your intentions are. And - whether he asks or not, I would not let him touch me with a ten-foot pole. The guy is nasty.
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#11 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 01:35 PM
 
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Well you already know what we are all going to say so what exactly are you looking for? None of us, knowing the back story will change our view point. That man is scary. He realized that by acting the way he was only got him ignored so he is being nice to suck you back in. Then he will be right back to his creepy and abusive ways.

As a woman who was in your position I advise, still, to avoid all contact with this man and have your ex, your current husband, be on the birthcertificate. It will save you loads and loads of drama and negativity in your and the unborn's life. I too was worried about my ex going for custody of our baby. So I played nice with him just to keep him from taking me to court and having all visitation with me present. It sucks. He plays emotional mind trip games with me non stop. If he has money for me he makes me chase for it. For weeks. I need the money badly but his games are so not worth it. He will touch me and suck me in with his lovely and sweet words only to turn around and be mean and play games. Not worth it. So what, the baby sees him every now and again and can't retain in her memory who he really is and I get a few hundred bucks here and there. So what, my mental health and my baby are more important. He has never taken the steps to get on the birth certificate or to file paternity. Which is what I wanted so i appeased him by doing whatever visits he wanted. It doesn't work, the men don't change. I have now totally cut him out of my life and he doesn't even ask about the baby. He doesn't see her anymore and I don't have to deal with any more games or drama. Although i seriously need the money I would rather have peace then his games. I am not going to file child support because he will go and file for custody. Having his drama and games isn't worth it.

But, if you want to believe he is being sincere just to avoid him getting custody, go for it. You will see that he hasn't changed. You will probably find out too late. You get the same advice because there is nothing you can say that will change who that man is. If you are afraid of him filing he truly can do it no matter what. If you have your husband be on the birth certificate it can take months in court before the ex ever gains any custody. Good luck.
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#12 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 07:18 PM
 
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mama, there is no fair visitation with an abuser. he has already abused the baby in utero by stressing you out and playing these games. take the advice of these mamas who have btdt. my xh didn't show any abusive tendencies, just crasshole tendencies, until after the first baby, and then whammo i was miserable and stuck. especially don't leave a paper trail like purchases with a credit card! you have a chance to spare your child what our children have suffered- and likely he will emotionally abuse the child should he gain that much access. use. your. out.
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#13 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 11:12 PM
 
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With abusers, there is a "honeymoon" which cycles between abuse. Sounds like your no-contact has resulted in him "being polite" to throw you off, and get back into your good graces. Before he abuses you again. Watch. the. cycle. repeat.
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#14 of 30 Old 10-05-2010, 01:16 AM
 
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Is there anything stopping you from moving out-of-state now before the baby is born? If he is that abusive to YOU, then you use that in your favor. "I was concerned for our safety due to past abuse." No one will hold that against you, especially if you get a restraining order against him now.

momof4Ps has it right; abusers cycle. He will say anything and do anything to make you think what he wants you to think; BT, DT, GTT-S. If you are insistent on having him in the child's life, the best thing to do is go to court and make it legal. If you don't want him in the child's life, then move and don't provide a forwarding address. Cut off all contact with him.

I do not say that lightly; I have worked for five years to ensure my son has a good relationship with his father only to have it blow up in my face. My son's father stopped speaking to him altogether after giving me this great song-and-dance about how it's all about the children and we should work together to co-parent. That lasted as long as it took for him to hook up with his current girlfriend. He has time to spend with her but hasn't talked to our son since FEBRUARY.

If I had it to do over, I think I might have not told him at all. He's an emotional abuser and very manipulative but I thought a good relationship between our son and he would be for the best. It isn't and I get to deal with the fallout.

Oh, also don't believe him if he says he will try to get custody. As I understand it, that is a very common script; my son's father has threatened me with it several times until I finally pushed back and told him not to do that ever again (nicely, politely; it's more effective but FINAL.)

P.S. I also was MOST concerned about being fair. Screw that. You need to take care of you and your child; if he wants to be a father, you won't be able to stop him. If he doesn't, you won't be able to make him.
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#15 of 30 Old 10-05-2010, 11:36 AM
 
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I think a common mistake women make in these situations is to assume that, because she is feeling selfless and all about the well-being of the child, that everyone is coming from that place. They're not. As you have described the father of your child, he doesn't sound like a stellar human being who should be accommodated. On the plus side, he sounds self-centred, and may just lose interest all on his own. I second everyone else's advice to just let him do that. Gifts will obligate you to him, at least in his mind, so if I were you, I would graciously decline them. The operative word is "graciously." No need to get him riled. As for that crazy mother-inheritance stuff, if it's true (I'm assuming you have heard about the situation through him, not directly from her, so who knows how he's filtering it), maybe the potential loss of cash will work in your favour.
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#16 of 30 Old 10-06-2010, 11:44 AM
 
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Girlfriend!

You are spending exponentially too much time on counterproductive mental gymnastics. You are a mark and he can smell it.
From now on, spend all of your time cultivating yourself to overcome all that baggage, garbage, toxic self-inferiority that's keeping you in this psychological game.

His mama is nobody to you. He is a functional drain on you. For him to even be willing to try to 'whirlpool' you into some drama with his mama indicates that he is useless AT BEST! It's TMI in the truest sense of the word, and its intentions are devious and/or fully indicative of a big, fat LOSER.

FWIW, I've tried to take on this guy's psychological twin. His prime directive was to rain into the cracks in my mind and freeze up, leaving my self-worth in a crumble. Worst mistake of my recent life...and mine had WAY more potential than this guy you describe.

Take care. Clean your closet. Get out of town. That precious baby don't need him!
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#17 of 30 Old 10-06-2010, 12:04 PM
 
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I think you're stronger than you realize. I think that he's got you believing in the power he's pretending to have. He has no rights--privileges really--unless you let him have them and you CAN keep them from him.
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#18 of 30 Old 10-06-2010, 12:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by momof4peppers View Post
With abusers, there is a "honeymoon" which cycles between abuse. Sounds like your no-contact has resulted in him "being polite" to throw you off, and get back into your good graces. Before he abuses you again. Watch. the. cycle. repeat.
I agree with this. BUT People can also change and break the cycle of abuse. They have to want it. They have to actively try for it. If he is going to counselling, standing up to his abuser (or walking away) he is trying to change. IT takes more than a few months to prove that to you. It will be a life long struggle for him. With him being Greek male, this might mean loosing everything family, money, et. which important for his well being. The struggle to break the abusive cycle is hard, I have done it but not with out a struggle and moments I wish I could do over. My dad broke the cycle with his second family, because he wanted to. He got help and guidance. His second family cannot imagine him being the way he was with us. For my dad, it helped his second wife was/is a better woman that my mom. My mom is abusive mentally and physically - just like her mother .

I do not know your full story. But, I am not going to say no visitation, I don't know enough details. Some people need to do this not just for their own safety but the child, so I won't rule it out. Even though your ex is an ass and you want to put a wall between the two of you your child has a right to know his father and to figure it out himself. This is hard for us moms (custodial parent) to watch. You are not responsible for their relationship. Find out what you are required to by law about the birth certificate. Not putting him on or denying that you knew who the dad is could haunt you later. Again a lawyer would be more aware of your state laws.

You do not have to allow him back into your heart or bedroom. You can be very aware of his behavior and "move on". While the child has to develop or not develop a relationship with dad. I am not saying make it easy for him, he is the one that needs to put his name on the punitive fathers list. He is the one that needs to go to court and do things legally. But protect yourself, learn your rights and responsibility. Be flexible enough in legal standings not to screw yourself and your child.

If your ex is Greek get your child's pass port as soon as possible or blocked.

Also, never EVER EVER use his credit card to pay anything. All it takes is for him to report it stolen and you are screwed. Cash or certified checks only, and log it. Log your interactions. 10/08/10 - X called at 420pm and called me a bitch. The conversation was.

Remember and learn about the cycle of abuse. Figure out why you choice this guy, so you can find a better man. YOU deserve that, your kids do also. Fix yourself.

It isn't a matter of being "fair" but a matter of being legally and morally responsible. It is not about yours or his rights, but the child's rights to know who his parents are.

I would encourage you to be legally proactive to protect yourself. Understand the cycle of abuse and honeymoon phase, which I think he is in.
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#19 of 30 Old 10-06-2010, 02:00 PM
 
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It isn't a matter of being "fair" but a matter of being legally and morally responsible. It is not about yours or his rights, but the child's rights to know who his parents are.
I am speaking from life-experience and not 'court' experience, but I don't think a child has a "right" to know who parents are....Could you clarify this as to whether you mean the 'moral' or 'legal' end of things?

Anthropologically speaking, paternity is not a universal importance.
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#20 of 30 Old 10-06-2010, 02:11 PM
 
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Another thing to think about...are you SURE he doesn't know the sex of the baby? I can see him doing this because its a boy...if a girl he probably wouldn't care.

My aunt fell in love with and lived with a Greek guy for years...when his parents back in Greece found out - they called him home told him to marry the gal was picked out or lose everything. He chose his family over my aunt. She has been alone ever since - and we are talking 20 years here) Anyway the point is, ultimately it sounds like your instinct is telling you to steer clear, keep him away but your feeling guilty because society says "yoru baby should have his dad in his life if possible" and "maybe he will change".

Dont' second guess yourself. Follow your instincts. Trust yourself.
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#21 of 30 Old 10-06-2010, 02:32 PM
 
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This "man" has been controlling, abusive and threatened to file for custody when he found out she was pregnant. That is not someone who wants what's in the best interest of his child. That is not someone who is reasonable or someone that can be co-parented with. If the OP has a way out of dealing with him, I say she should take it. A child may have a "right" to know his/her father, but when the mother knows from experience, and from his current behavior and threats, that he will not act in the best interest of the child, and is more interested in control than in his/her well-being, then she has a "right" and responsibility to make decisions on the child's behalf.

And if that means keeping the child from the clutches of an abusive man who only wants the kid around depending on the financial whims of his mother - and this same man is abusive and perverted toward his child's mother - then I don't think the child, especially as a helpless baby who probably would not be properly taken care of under this guy's supervision, should be sacrificed on the altar of high-mindedness and second chances.
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#22 of 30 Old 10-06-2010, 02:36 PM
 
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Thank you miss lotus, and let us not forget the time he berated her and just shy of physically abused her in the WAITING ROOM OF THE OBS OFFICE! Yea, that one was a real gem. .

This guy is scum. He will not change, nor does he want to. RUN!
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#23 of 30 Old 10-06-2010, 04:55 PM
 
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Another thing to think about...are you SURE he doesn't know the sex of the baby? I can see him doing this because its a boy...if a girl he probably wouldn't care.
This. It's in your signature. Enough digging on the internet and he would know.
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#24 of 30 Old 10-06-2010, 05:46 PM
 
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This. It's in your signature. Enough digging on the internet and he would know.
Yikes! I would cut out the specifics there, that's for sure!
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#25 of 30 Old 10-07-2010, 02:54 AM
 
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I want to tell you something that no one else has told you.

I divorced 6 years ago from your scum twin. He never wanted to touch me like the father of your baby. Thankfully.

I have three sweet kids who have nearly been wrecked by his behavior. One who no longer has a father, and two who are now having visitation with him. Just read my posts to see what they have been dealing with for 6 years!

One child no longer wants to visit with her father. She has had enough. I can't tell you enough what abuse he has heaped on her, and no one, no official, doctor or any other "mandated reporter" has been able to help her.

I wish I never got back together with him after I left the first time. I wish so many things, but now we have a permanent parenting plan that is worth absolutely nothing because parenting plans CAN NOT protect children. They protect abusers.

Take your unborn baby and run away. Leave no trail. Don't, please sweetie, don't take the money...a credit card is a a paper trail. A legal paper trail. Shred the credit card, then return anything at all that you have bought for the baby. Send the shredded credit card back to his mother, with out a return address. Drop it in the mail on your way out of town...he will never know where you are..and you can live happily ever after, with a sweet baby who never will be abused. If you don't run, then you are seriously messed up and need to find a home for this baby, with someone who can protect this unborn child. I don't mean to offend you, and you have some hard choices, but he is pure poison, pure poison, and he will poison your baby and you, and like a spider makes a web, he will have you all caught up in it.

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#26 of 30 Old 10-07-2010, 10:10 AM
 
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Seriously!!! Think of all the yucky things he has said and done. Now think about him doing those things to your baby for the next 18 years. You think he is controlling and creepy now? He will be able to play these games with you and the baby for much, much longer if you have anything to do with him.
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#27 of 30 Old 10-07-2010, 12:30 PM
 
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I think you should give him nothing. Don't put his name on the birth certificate, make him fight for any visitation.
Father's rights go out the window when the guy is actively abusive. You and your baby will be better off if he is out of your life. You know about the cycle of abuse, right? After the honeymoon phase, the abuse virtually always starts up again worse than ever. You are still engaged with him in the "dance" of abuse, and you're still letting him have control over you. Break that.
Also, please please please read up on the dynamics of abuse. I suggest "Why Does He Do That: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men."

Jen, journalist, policy wonk, and formerly a proud single mama to my sweet little man Cyrus, born at home Dec. 2007 . Now married to my Incredibly Nice Guy and new mama to baby Arthur.
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#28 of 30 Old 10-07-2010, 03:21 PM
 
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mama listen to what others are saying. everyone around you.

and listen.

pay attention.

and go deep within yourself to find out what is important to you.

ask others who know him IRL.

see how much perspective you have.

and then run.

its not just abuse.

from all you have written before... there is so much more here.

let him fight for it. dont make it easy and hand him things on a platter because later on you might HAVE to.

you dont know. life changes. as you walk down the road so many paths appear.

if he comes pursuing get the best lawyer money can buy. you CAN get out of it with a good lawyer. if you dont have money one day something will happen and you will have the means to figure out what to do.

but run mama. please run. i know its scary as hell.

i know, i really, really know what it feels like to be able unable to believe.

but there is too much there mama. your case has toooooo many red flags.

the only person you and your child has is just you. and no one else.

not the law. not the support that is out there. in cases like yours where it si tougher than simple issues people back off.

so you take the defensive stand.

in a way i am glad his mom is so against this.

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#29 of 30 Old 10-07-2010, 03:39 PM
 
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I ran away from a similar man. My daughter was three at the time. I left the door cracked open, but did not make it easy for him. I gave up support and was BROKE and struggling, and I hated that.

However, she has only known love and acceptance since we left. She has never known- at least not to remember- what it is like to live in fear in her own home.

With the distance and with time, his use for her as a pawn to control me faded. He finally agreed to surrender any and all rights.

Is it what you are 'supposed to do' when kids have a 'right to their father' ? No. But when he is not stable or is abusive it is a whole different ball game. You do what you have to do to protect the child, and usually that means creating physical distance.
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#30 of 30 Old 10-07-2010, 07:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post
For my dad, it helped his second wife was/is a better woman that my mom. My mom is abusive mentally and physically - just like her mother .
So the co-parents of abusers end up as abusers? Not exactly an argument for allowing any kind of contact with the abuser. You know he'd use any contact as a wedge to bully his way into the child's life more fully. I've heard of lawyers being able to get the father full custody by doing utterly despicable things like getting a doctor to say that having dirty dishes in the sink meant the mom had PPD and was psychological risk.
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