Monogamous committed lesbians parenting a child (or TTC) Buddy Group - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 10:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Amazlilith
I don't even understand why Poly folks are on the queer board to begin with...As for Bisexuals, they definately belong here, but if they are married they really don't have any idea where we are coming from as Lesbians.
WTH?

Some poly folks are queer. Period. I have a male partner and a female partner. I also have a few other LD girlfriends. We're TTCing. If that doesn't pass the queer radar test well, I honestly don't give a : because this whole heteronormativity vibe with the monogamy is the only way to be a truly opressed queer bs is beyond old. It also reeks of a European-American, Christian framework that is not all that inclusive of cultures where polyamory was widely practiced and looked upon as a community building, as it was in my community before the f'ing European invasion and subsequent framework taking over.

I have stayed out of this thread because I am not a lesbian and I completely respect the right to self-determination of space, but this thread has done more bashing the people in its own community than talking about being or living as the intended audience.
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#92 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 11:03 AM
 
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Oh come on people, don't you think this is getting a little bit ridiculous? We aren't coming onto any poly threads and bashing you. If you disagree with someone's statement can't you try to have a normal discussion in the hopes of getting that person to at least understand your point of view? I don't, by the way, see anyone saying that "monogamy is the only way to be a truly oppressed queer." I think that things are being read into this that aren't really there.

And as far as the inclusive bit... yes! It was an inclusive thread! That's allowed! Furthermore, MOST of the things mentioned regarding bi or poly people were during a debate that got started here, not just for kicks and giggles. We as a group are trying to figure out how to find our own niche. If that involves some talk and debate, fine... but I don't see the need to gang up on us for it.

Me: married to my :fireman Mama to my littles: Toby 8/04 and Elina 10/08
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#93 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 11:21 AM
 
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but ganging up with some truly hateful language on folks who don't fit into the narrow definition of the thread title is perfectly cool apparently.

i have the whole of mdc to be bashed for being a queer parent. i sure as hell don't expect to come to the queer forum and get more of the same from "allies".
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#94 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 11:37 AM
 
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But that is just how the OP felt! Looks like we have more in common than one might think...

Me: married to my :fireman Mama to my littles: Toby 8/04 and Elina 10/08
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#95 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 11:38 AM
 
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Also thought I'd mention that I dont think anyone was trying to be hateful, just get thoughts sorted out in their own minds.

Me: married to my :fireman Mama to my littles: Toby 8/04 and Elina 10/08
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#96 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 11:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Me
I checked that board out, Greer. Hmmnn..there are so few posts and, it appears, so few members. Is it a new board? Oh -- I also remember that it is a San Diego based board. I wonder if I'm missing something -- maybe was looking in the wrong place for the good discussions?
CuriousMe,

I figured since it is new and less traveled at the moment, that people who start going there can try to help shape it into a board what they're looking for. The fact that it's newer presents an opportunity

It seems really family and parenting oriented, so I think it's a place where the people here who want to talk more specifically about parenting issues can go and help set the tone there.

I was hoping to curb the hostility in here and provide an alternative.

Greer
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#97 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 11:48 AM
 
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#98 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 06:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cmb123
out IRL because any lesbian mama I know is partnered. For whatever reason, partnered lesbians don't associate with the single lesbians. It sucks. All of the "love makes a family" shit...all partnered lesbians. I don't exsist. Straight coupled women are more inclusive than the lesbians. What's up with that?
CMB, if you lived near us, we'd associate with you. We have friends of many kinds -- partnered and single, straight, bi and gay. What I find in our lesbian community is a reluctance of most women to reach out, take a chance and pursue active friendships. My partner and I, both intelligent, fun, warm, and happy people, have opened our home up on several occasions (for BBQs, volleyball and board games) to strangers -- women from our local e-mail lists and from PlanetOut. We always get a good turnout of nice, apparently like-minded women (in some regards and not so like-minded in others) and everybody always has a good time with us and the rest of the group--least that's what they say over and over while they are there. And then what? Nothing. A couple of e-mails saying "Thanks -- that was great!" Maybe a phone call. Beyond that, nothing. It's weird and my partner and I talk about it all the time. What is up with people? Anyway, kinda got off on a tangent and my main point was to say that not all of us stick to hanging out with only couples.
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#99 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 06:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lotusdebi
Kincaid,
This says to me that only "normal"- looking Queer people should be included at Pride festivities. That is discrimination against a number of Queer individuals. Why don't all Queer people have the right to attend Pride? Why shouldn't they also stand up and fight for their rights? Or is the movement suddenly only about lesbians with kids?

This is showing that Queer people in opposite-sex relationships shouldn't have any kind of opinion of what Pride should be about. It also ignores the fact that many Queer people in same-sex relationships are in agreement that assimilation is not necessary. So, an attack on bi w/ guys, and completely ignoring the lesbians who don't accept a specific view of how to dress for Pride festivities, or which Queer folks shouldn't attend because they might hurt the equal rights movement.

All three of these insinuate that bisexuals who are in opposite-sex relationships aren't really Queer by putting queer in quotes.
That is tremendously offensive, and illustrates the point that you do have a "queerer than you" attitude.
I am now officially DISGUSTED with this thread!!! It is utterly RIDICULOUS how Kincaid's original thought process has been so insanely DISTORTED. I hope you all are proud of yourselves!!!!

ThisMama, I have to say, it was not so coincidental to me to see you admitted that you got carried away and that you weren't even sure what the argument was about anymore (I am not purporting to quote you--just paraphrasing from memory) only AFTER Kincaid left the forum.

Was it worth it? To all who could not bring themselves to step into the other person's shoes for a minute and to look at things from more than one angle and to have a little empathy and understanding -- WAS IT WORTH IT?

Shaking my head in disbelief and disgust.

Kincaid, your opinion is valued by many here and I hope you stick around in some way on MDC. Or the board that Greer posted. Or, if you know of another active board, please PM me and I'll join ya. I'm sorry you had to go through that MADNESS.
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#100 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 07:01 PM
 
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FWIW, I'm a pregnant lesbian who is permanently partnered, and I've never posted here because of the dearth of actual lesbians on the Queer Parenting board. I spend my entire life surrounded by bisexual women in heterosexual marriages who say that they know what it's like because they had a girlfriend in college or kissed a girl in high school. When I come to a board specifically about queer mothering, I expect real, live lesbians, for Maude's sake, yet my whole experience with QP has been that it's mostly poly and heterosexually partnered bi women.

Fertility Friend, that bastion of conservatism, has a much more substantial lesbian population. At FF, there are discussions regularly about real lesbian parenting issues like the legal hoops we have to jump through in order to have any hold on our rights as a family, or the added tax burden if we're lucky enough to get health insurance for our partner and the kids that might be legally hers, or the fight to keep your kids when your male ex wants to take them away from you because you're a lesbian.

I'm sympathetic to the concerns of poly and heterosexually partnered bi women, but when those discussions outnumber the discussions about lesbian concerns, I know I'm not in the right place.
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#101 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 07:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NameThatMama
FWIW, I'm a pregnant lesbian who is permanently partnered, and I've never posted here because of the dearth of actual lesbians on the Queer Parenting board. [Etc., etc.] .
Hear hear!!!

I'll check FF out -- thanks!
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#102 of 118 Old 06-16-2005, 08:01 PM
 
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#103 of 118 Old 06-17-2005, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Lotusdebi,
Kincaid didn't "leave". My son had occupational therapy yesterday for god's sake. Poor little thing is really having a hard time.

I use the word "queer" in quotation marks almost all the time (before someone finds a a place I did not quote mark on it, please realize I also don't consistently use capital letters or punctuation or correct spelling when I mean to, either). I place queer in quotes because of the some of the theories described in this link Dictionary explanation of history and meaning of word queer.
Not all gay folks embrace the word queer. I don't like it at all because of its perjorative history, and the fact that it is in consistent use in my backward state with it's original perjorative meaning. I hate it the word.
There are feminists who use the word "bitch" and those who find it grossly offensive. Same with the N word... same with the P word. You all know what words I mean. Not everone agrees with the cultural re-appropriation concept. There is no one right or wrong answer on that, I don't think.

I also do not identify as queer in the sense of what it encompasses as a group. I identify as Lesbi-Gay. I identify with others who are in same-sex relationships. While I LOVE and RESPECT my trans friends (of which I have many), I do not think we are lumped into a common group. Trans folks have totally different life issues, experiences, etc than a lesbian or gay man. I also see poly as being distinct.
Of course we are under one umbrella as far as being considered deviants by society at large. Just like all people "of color" are lumped together by our society... either you are "white" or you are "of color." Just like you are "straight" or "queer".
But polarizing society into white versus non-white is missing out on so much. Just THINK of what white folks did/are doing to indigenous people of this nation. To be a native american is a whole different enchalada than to be an American born Japanese. Again, both non-white but such different issues.

Not all disenfranchised groups can roll up into one big group ALL the time. That is not an insult to other groups. It just reflects the culture of specific sub-groups. Lesbians ARE different than gay men - major different culture even though the commonality is same-sex love and sexual attraction. Poly people are different than coupled gay lesbians. Bi folks have different issues than gay or straight folk (like people of mixed race, they often get the worst of both worlds and combined discrimination). To acknowledge these commonalities is not to de-value the others. There is comfort and strength in aligning yourself with others in like circumstances, especially when you are a minority.

This boils down to me, as a lesbian (who KNOWS she has more priveldge in society than a trans person, for example) just wanting to identify with other lesbians to talk about raising my kid. How I deal with the issue of "positive male influence" for my son will be different than a single by choice straight mom. Different than a bi mom. Different than a widowed mom.
My complain with the "queer" forum is the prevalence of people to be dismissive or smarmy about the differences among us. When a lesbian mom posts a thread asking about what kids call them, there is so much sub-context behind that. When people who have a mom and a dad reply with a dismissive response, that is sad. My opinion (again, opinion) of the "queer" board is that lesbians have experienced dismissive answers and they don't come back. And we see that several people I have never seen before on here have cropped up and said, yep, that is why I never posted here, I asked a question and got a dismissive response. This was the issue that I was speaking to. I am frustrated that this has been drug into a "you think you are more queer than me" argument. When that was not at all the crux of what I was getting at.

Finally, my comments about the pride thread were taken out of context. You left out the fact that I said "this is what someone posted, and I am paraphrasing her comments." I only brought that up because I did so to comment on the fact that her different opinion was jumped all over and shut down. Rather than attack that individual poster, I think it would have been worthy to consider the theory of what she was talking about. You know, she was not pulling that out of her a$$..... she is not a lone bigot with a problem with queer people... her brief comments were in fact a commonly held thought of some LGBT theorists. Rather than shut someone down by saying they are involved in a more queer than you contest... it would serve us all good to really think about these issues. If indeed we want us all as a group to have a chance at equality.

I can only think there were many ways my friends of color reacted differently to racism. I know from their debates that there was anger over different ways of "assimilating" or fighting for rights. Hey, this is pretty standard in marginalized classes. Because two people of color feel differently about the politics of assimilating into white protestant society... that does not mean one thinks they are more black than the other.

I just want to end with this. We are different. People "of color" are incredibly different (a black woman and an Amer-Asian man? totally different positions in society). I think honoring diversity means acknowledging and respecting differences. And that means it's okay if lesbians feel they have different circumstances than bi women or poly folks.
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#104 of 118 Old 06-17-2005, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Two more things, real quick this time.

FF is awesome! VERY cool with being gay. Lesbians there mainly seem to be AP too, at least by their blinkies. They have 100 lesbians to 1 on MDC.

But I do think MDC is a good place for lesbians. As a LESBIAN, I have not experienced even a hint of phobia from the straight moms all over MDC. I understand and appreciate that the experience of bi or poly moms is different though (which goes back to how we DO indeed have different experiences, even though we are all "queer"). I would not tell a bi or poly mom to get their panties out of a twist for saying they felt repressed on MDC. The same respect should flow both ways. There are differences, and those are ok.
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#105 of 118 Old 06-17-2005, 03:45 PM
 
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#106 of 118 Old 06-17-2005, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Lotusdebi,
If I go browse poly threads, I am sure I would encounter people commenting that the problem with "closed" marriages is jealousy and repression of people's true desires and it's a set up for failure. I would find the random comment that committed people are closed off and repressed. Boring. Unrealistic. Doomed for divorce.

I could get mad and post over there and say how dare you call me boring? Repressed? Closed off? We could debate in the poly threads just like we are debating in the lesbian "committed" threads. If we are doing two different things - committment versus polyamoury - then of course we will say things that the other will disagree with.

You caution me that you are worried about our "exclusive thread" containing possibly "disparaging remarks." I understand what you mean, I really do (I would never want to be inflammatory about somone or their choices, because I deal with the same crap every day). But do you want to us to monitor each other's threads for potentially "disparaging" remarks? Want me to pop over on some of the poly threads right now and check for potentially "disparaging" remarks about committed folks? Dollars to doughnuts I could find something to get my committed panties in a twist about. That is not good though.

So maybe we need ground rules so we can co-exist with some differing on this board but but be equally respected. I know the poly folk have gotten flack on MDC from people that are fine with lesbianism, and that sucks! I would not want hetero people to go in poly buddy threads and "debate". I guess lesbians want the same thing. That is what the lesbians in this thread who are upset are wanting
I think this thread would really come around and be saved if we could start talking about how we pull off co-existing with different opinions and lifestyle choices.
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#107 of 118 Old 06-17-2005, 05:00 PM
 
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#108 of 118 Old 06-17-2005, 05:35 PM
 
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Wow, I'm pretty new here still to MDC, but I wanted to share my own feelings after reading though this whole thread.

What I took from what you posted, Kincaid, was that you have tried to find support as a partnered, committed lesbian parent and at times have felt other posters have responded in crappy ways. That sucks.

The difficult thing with reading things on a message board, is we can't always know people's intentions or really understand what people are trying to say. Plus we bring our own "stuff" as well as our own communication styles.

I felt thismama was just "calling you out" so to speak, to clarify what she saw as some possible assumptions/judgements/whatever. Personally, I think this is important for us to do with each other. Unfortunately some people find it argumentative but I think that depends on communication styles.

Since I can't really speak for others, I would like to share my OWN feelings and reactions to this thread and comments I have read. Here's my life - I'm partnered to an amazing woman. We're married (not legally unfortunately) and committed to each other completely. However, we are consensually "nonmonogamous" which I guess you could say means I'm poly b/c for us it's not a swinging kind of thing. I am both lesbian and poly, and I feel like so many comments on this thread have seperated those two things.

Our lives are all complex. When my wife and I have a baby in the (hopefully) near future, I doubt our life will look much different from monogomous lesbians, aside from an occasional date with someone...and I doubt we'll have much time for that. :LOL Some people who identify as poly have multiple *partners*, but that is not our life. The vibe I personally have felt on this thread from many posters is "great for *those* (i.e. poly or bi) people...just get them on another message board away from us!" Not all of us "jump all over" posts by lesbians, and some of us are living as partnered lesbians! So to state a group or thread should be for *monogomous* lesbians b/c the issues are *always* different, I feel excluded unneccesarily. To be honest, I think a lot of posters here don't really even know what polyamory is and maybe just think it's having random sex with other people. Please educate yourself.

As thismama pointed out, not all of us want to assimilate. yes, I want legal marriage and health insurance and all of that, but I also celebrate queerness and our "differentness". Yes, including all the beautiful half-naked people at pride! Btw, our pride in Minneapolis is great! We have the largest GLBT parenting organization *in the world* here, and they are a huge contingent in the pride parade each year. Booze and partying as well as kids events as well as religious organizations coexist in a harmony of sorts :LOL .

I would just like to remind us all (including myself!) to PLEASE always remember to check our assumptions. I know a committed, monogomous, "lesbian" parenting couple who has been together for years, but one of the moms is actually bisexual. Labels are tricky things, and I firmly believe people have a right to label themselves however they want - and those labels obviously don't tell you what their lives look like b/c obviously there is a lot of diversity even within the "monogomous-partnered-lesbian-couple-whoareparenting" category and our issues are not all the same.

Sorry this is so long.
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#109 of 118 Old 06-18-2005, 04:07 PM
 
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First of all... thumbs up to Kincaid for your very insightful and thought provoking posts. Even though I've been agreeing with most everything you've said I still enjoyed reading such a wonderful clarification of the point of view you're trying to get across.

Lunadoula... I also really enjoyed hearing your point of view. I did notice the use of terms like "always" when it came to how some of us were feeling about issue. I can only speak for myself in saying that I do not believe in "always" or "never" - it is rarely true. I don't think that the thread was started because monogamous issues are always different - I do think that Kincaid has specified that she meant women raising children (or planning on) without a father being involved in the picture. As in, those of us that have inseminated by syringe... needle... turkey baster (:LOL )... heck, one night stand even.... and have no connection to the man except for the use of his sperm.

Me: married to my :fireman Mama to my littles: Toby 8/04 and Elina 10/08
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#110 of 118 Old 06-18-2005, 08:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Faerieshadow
I don't think that the thread was started because monogamous issues are always different - I do think that Kincaid has specified that she meant women raising children (or planning on) without a father being involved in the picture. As in, those of us that have inseminated by syringe... needle... turkey baster (:LOL )... heck, one night stand even.... and have no connection to the man except for the use of his sperm.
Well, the title of this thread does not say anything about having men involved. You can be in a monogamous, committed lesbian relationship and be coparenting with a man, a gay male couple, etc. I know lots of folks doing that where I live, and they don't have any sexual involvement with the man/men. Only a coparenting relationship.
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#111 of 118 Old 06-18-2005, 08:35 PM
 
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The title didn't talk about it.. but the OP's posts did. I'm just reiterating my take on how the OP described her intentions of this board to others who had previously asked. I'm not quite sure where this is getting at... are we debating who "should/shouldn't" be "allowed" to post here or something?

I think we were all just looking for a place to talk about similar issues... I don't think it is necessary to nitpick about who can participate. Isn't it as simple as, if you feel you have something worthwhle to contribute, then by all means do so!

Me: married to my :fireman Mama to my littles: Toby 8/04 and Elina 10/08
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#112 of 118 Old 06-19-2005, 12:30 AM
 
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ok, if everyone has gotten a chance to nit pick each and every post, and to clarify ad nauseum (sp?) what exactly they meant or did not mean... can we talk about parenting? can we talk about what people are doing about adopting or gaining guardianship of their children? can we address positive male role models, how people got pregnant or their experiences with adoption? can we? i have stuck this out waitng for everyone to get the quibbling out of their systems, because i really am interested in the issues that prompted this thread...

laura
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#113 of 118 Old 06-19-2005, 02:10 PM
 
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#114 of 118 Old 06-19-2005, 02:18 PM
 
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Good idea ladies.... let's start fresh!

Me: married to my :fireman Mama to my littles: Toby 8/04 and Elina 10/08
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#115 of 118 Old 06-20-2005, 12:42 AM
 
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sounds good to me- if someone starts it i will definitely be there
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#116 of 118 Old 06-27-2005, 11:44 PM
 
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I am there!
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#117 of 118 Old 06-28-2005, 01:09 PM
 
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Definitely interested!
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#118 of 118 Old 06-29-2005, 12:33 AM
 
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go to lesbian parents thread...
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