Anyone going to Michigan this year? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 77 Old 08-22-2006, 11:42 AM
 
PixelDust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 640
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow. I never thought that would happen.

--
Let your life speak. -- George Fox
PixelDust is offline  
#62 of 77 Old 08-22-2006, 11:50 AM
 
frog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: where footprints dance in the snow
Posts: 9,229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow.
frog is offline  
#63 of 77 Old 08-22-2006, 01:27 PM
 
Magic Denise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 67
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Read this forum for more info:

http://www.michfest.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000885.html

Michigan has never checked panties at the gate. This makes me think that folks just bought their tickets. The announcement did not come from the festival owners.

On another topic, has anyone camped with children at fest? We would like to go again next year.
Magic Denise is offline  
#64 of 77 Old 08-22-2006, 01:39 PM
 
frog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: where footprints dance in the snow
Posts: 9,229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Good point, Denise. I know of several people who've been flying under the radar of the policy for years, now that I think about it.
frog is offline  
#65 of 77 Old 08-22-2006, 10:39 PM
 
MsMoMpls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 2,013
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks so much for sharing that... The world is such a wonderful place- things do grow and transform... even if not at the speed we would have it.

And I have camped many times with kiddos... if anyone has questions.

Maureen

Maureen
MsMoMpls is offline  
#66 of 77 Old 08-22-2006, 11:11 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
: : : : :
thismama is offline  
#67 of 77 Old 08-23-2006, 05:33 AM
 
mamajama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,037
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." —Margaret Mead
mamajama is offline  
#68 of 77 Old 08-23-2006, 10:16 AM
 
frog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: where footprints dance in the snow
Posts: 9,229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
According to the founder, Michigan hasn't changed its policy:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Lisa Vogel
August 22, 2006

MICHIGAN WOMYN’S MUSIC FESTIVAL SETS THE RECORD “STRAIGHT”

Hart, Michigan – Seeking to correct misinformation widely distributed by “Camp Trans” organizers, Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival founder and producer Lisa Vogel released the following clarification:

“Since 1976, the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival has been created by and for womyn-born womyn, that is, womyn who were born as and have lived their entire life experience as womyn. Despite claims to the contrary by Camp Trans organizers, the Festival remains a rare and precious space intended for womyn-born womyn.”

The facts surrounding the interactions between WWTMC and Camp Trans organizers are as follows:

In the months preceding this year’s Festival, held August 8 – 13, there was communication between a Camp Trans organizer named Lorraine and Lisa Vogel. Letters from Lorraine continued during the Festival, when they were hand-delivered to the Festival’s front gate from Camp Trans, which takes place on Forest Service Land across from Festival property. On Tuesday, August 8th, Camp Trans organizers inquired at the Box Office about Festival admission. They were told that the Festival is intended for womyn-born womyn, and that those who seek to purchase tickets are asked to respect that intention. Camp Trans organizers left without purchasing tickets. They returned the next day and were given the same information.

On Wednesday, August 9th, Vogel sent a reply letter to Lorraine which stated in part:

“I deeply desire healing in our communities, and I can see and feel that you want that too. I would love for you and the other organizers of Camp Trans to find the place in your hearts and politics to support and honor space for womyn who have had the experience of being born and living their life as womyn. I ask that you respect that womon born womon is a valid and honorable gender identity. I also ask that you respect that womyn born womyn deeply need our space -- as do all communities who create space to gather, whether that be womyn of color, trans womyn or trans men . . . I wish you well, I want healing, and I believe this is possible between our communities, but not at the expense of deeply needed space for womyn born womyn.”

Lorraine at that point chose to purchase a ticket. Vogel’s written request that Camp Trans organizers respect the Festival as womyn-born-woymn space was consistent with information provided to Camp Trans organizers who approached the Festival Box Office. “Does this represent a change in the Festival’s commitment to womyn-born womyn space? No.” says Vogel. “If a transwoman purchased a ticket, it represents nothing more than that womon choosing to disrespect the stated intention of this Festival.”

“As feminists, we call upon the transwomen’s community to help us maintain womyn only space, including spaces created by and for womyn-born womyn. As sisters in struggle, we call upon the transwomen’s community to meditate upon, recognize and respect the differences in our shared experiences and our group identities even as we stand shoulder to shoulder as women, and as members of the greater queer community. We once again ask the transwomen’s community to recognize that the need for a separate womyn-born womyn space does not stand at odds with recognizing the larger and beautiful diversity of our shared community.”

* * *

In an effort to build further understanding of the Festival’s perspective, answers are provided to questions raised by the recent Camp Trans press release (which contains misinformation):

Why would the Festival sell a ticket to an individual who is not a womon-born womon if the Festival is intended as a space created by and for womyn-born womyn? From its inception the Festival has been home to womyn who could be considered gender outlaws, either because of their sexual orientation (lesbian, bisexual, polyamorous, etc.) or their gender presentation (butch, bearded, androgynous, femme – and everything in between). Many womyn producing and attending the Michigan Festival are gender variant womyn. Many of the younger womyn consider themselves differently gendered, many of the older womyn consider themselves butch womyn, and the dialogue is alive and well on the Land as our generational mix continues to inform our ongoing understanding about gender identity and the range of what it means to be female. Michigan provides one of the safest places on the planet for womyn who live and present themselves to the world in the broadest range of gender expression. As Festival organizers, we refuse to question anyone’s gender. We instead ask that womon-born womon be respected as a valid gender identity, and that the broad queer and gender-diverse communities respect our commitment to one week each year for womyn-born womyn to gather.

Did the Festival previously refuse to sell tickets to transwomen? The Festival has consistently communicated our intention about who the Festival is created by and for. In 1999, Camp Trans protesters caused extensive disruption of the Festival, in which a male from Camp Trans publicly displayed male genitals in a common shower area and widespread disrespect of women’s space was voiced. The following year, our 25th anniversary, we issued a statement that we would not sell tickets to those entering for the purpose of disrupting the Festival. While this is widely pointed to by Camp Trans supporters as a "policy," it was a situational response to the heated circumstances of 1999, intended to reassure the womyn who have attended for years that the Festival remained – as it does today – intended for womyn who were born as and have lived their entire life experience as womyn, despite the disrespect and intentional disruption Camp Trans initiated.

Is the Festival transphobic? We strongly assert there is nothing transphobic with choosing to spend one week with womyn who were born as, and have lived their lives as, womyn. It is a powerful, uncommon experience that womyn enjoy during this one week of living in the company of other womyn-born womyn. There are many opportunities in the world to share space with the entire queer community, and other spaces that welcome all who define themselves as female. Within the rich diversity now represented by the broader queer community, we believe there is room for all affinity groups to enjoy separate, self-determined, supportive space if they choose. Supporting womyn-born womyn space is no more inherently transphobic than supporting womyn of color space is racist. We believe that womyn-born womyn have a right to gather separately from the greater womyn’s community. We refuse to be forced into false dichotomies that equate being pro-womyn-born womyn space with being anti-trans; indeed, many of the womyn essential to the Michigan Festival are leaders and supporters of trans-solidarity work. The Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival respects the transsexual community as integral members of the greater queer community. We call upon the transsexual community in turn to respect and support womyn-born womyn space and to recognize that a need for a separate womyn-born womyn space does not stand at odds with recognizing transwomen as part of the larger diversity of the womyn’s community.

What is Camp Trans? Camp Trans was first created in 1994 as a protest to the Festival as womyn-born womyn space. Camp Trans re-emerged in 1999 and has been held across the road from the Festival every year since. A small gathering of people who camp and hold workshops and a few performances on Forest Service land across the road, Camp Trans attempts to educate womyn who are attending the Festival about their point of view regarding trans inclusion at the Festival. At times they have advocated for the Festival to welcome anyone who, for whatever period of time, defines themselves as female, regardless of the sex they were born into. At other times, Camp Trans activists have advocated opening the Festival to all sexes and genders.

What is the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival? It is the largest and longest running womyn’s festival in the United States. Since the first Festival in 1976, tens of thousands of womyn from all corners of the world have made the pilgrimage to this square mile of land in Northern Michigan. The essence of the Festival is that it is one week a year that is by, for and about the glorious diversity of womyn-born womyn and we continue to stand by our labor of love to create this space. Our focus has not changed in the 31 years of our celebration and it remains fixed on the goal of providing a celebratory space for a shared womyn-born-womyn experience.
frog is offline  
#69 of 77 Old 08-23-2006, 10:37 AM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh, no.
thismama is offline  
#70 of 77 Old 08-23-2006, 10:46 AM
 
Jennifer3141's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Traverse City, MI
Posts: 4,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Nothing's different with the policy. No one asks about gender at the gate and no one ever will. It is simply assumed that you will respect the policy upon entering. Unfortunately, some do not.

It was another wonderful fest with lots of little folklore-ish tales.

secular classical-ish mama to an incredible 5 year old DS and an amazing 6 year old DD.
Jennifer3141 is offline  
#71 of 77 Old 08-23-2006, 10:48 AM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer3141
Nothing's different with the policy. No one asks about gender at the gate and no one ever will. It is simply assumed that you will respect the policy upon entering.
Sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? How ironic.
thismama is offline  
#72 of 77 Old 08-23-2006, 11:44 AM
 
PixelDust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 640
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This debate has gone on for so long, and both sides have obviously put a lot of thought into their positions. Is there room for movement on this issue? Do you all think that someday the two sides will come to an agreement, or is this one of those "it's all been said, and I still disagree" things?

--
Let your life speak. -- George Fox
PixelDust is offline  
#73 of 77 Old 08-23-2006, 02:03 PM
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,562
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
quite ironic indeed, and sad.
Arduinna is offline  
#74 of 77 Old 08-23-2006, 02:10 PM
 
frog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: where footprints dance in the snow
Posts: 9,229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't see it as "don't ask, don't tell" so much as "We're all adults and we ask that you abide by our rules for this event, but we're not going to humiliate anyone by hassling them about it."

Short of changing the policy, which I don't see happening, I can't think of a better solution. Can you?
frog is offline  
#75 of 77 Old 08-23-2006, 05:05 PM
 
Grettal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Midwest
Posts: 96
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I actually support the policy of WBW only. I believe there is a need for WBW only space. There is also a need for ALL persons regardless of gender, gender identity, etc to come to an agreement to respect each other and join hands in fighting for equal rights in the world and to support the healing of all persons.. But I don't think it is too much to ask for WBW to be allowed 7 days of WBW only space each year. We as human beings have so much bigger battles to fight than to go to war with each other over 7 days of WBW space. But, that's my personal opinion and judging from the tone of many of the replies it probably isn't a very popular one.

FT mom, FT wife & FT employee.. DS - 11-2004 and second DC due 7-2010
Grettal is offline  
#76 of 77 Old 09-01-2006, 03:34 AM
 
Jennifer3141's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Traverse City, MI
Posts: 4,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama
Sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? How ironic.
More like a, "We've defined who fest is for and we ask that you respect that."

secular classical-ish mama to an incredible 5 year old DS and an amazing 6 year old DD.
Jennifer3141 is offline  
#77 of 77 Old 09-01-2006, 10:05 AM
 
lunadoula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 450
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sad. I was excited when I thought it had changed, so we could maybe go next year with our little one.

For those who support the WBW policy and are so tired of debating and arguing - I hear you. But you have to understand, for those of us who truly would like to go but feel in our hearts that discrimination IS what's going on here, we cannot just "accept." I do respect that we can have different views, but I cannot find the policy acceptable. Saying "if you don't like it than don't go" feels really disrespectful and simplifying the issue.
lunadoula is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off