Workshop by Dr. Bob Sears (includes Aluminum) - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-09-2005, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So at my local LLL conference I attended a great workshop held by Dr. Bob Sears. I had been looking for some sort of information that wasn't explicitly pro or anti vac, but that gave the facts and had considered all the research out there. I think he did a fine job imo. So, I have made a few posts about this, and finally found my sheet that he gave us all, with my notes. Some might find it helpful. I am not anti vac, but I do want more information, and want to be fully informed when I make my decisions, something so far I have not.

Dr. Sears looked at each shot individually and asked several questions of each one.

Is the Disease common?

Are the risks of the disease severe?

Are the vaccine ingredients safe?

Is the side effect profile relatively safe?

What is the public health risk? Especially if suddenly no one was vaccinating against the disease (herd immunity issues).

He then gave detailed information on each shot, number of cases reported each year in the US, seriousness of hte disease, vaccine tyupe, worrisome ingredients, animal tissue used, side effects, reasons to use, reasons to question its use, public health risk issues, and then rated its importance on a scale of 1 to 5.

He discussed the routine vaccine schedule, proposed a selective schedule and the reasons why he thought it was best, discussed the diseases that are serious for young infants, diseases that are serious but not very probable that your child will catch, diseases that are common and not serious, and diseases to be concerned about for teens, or if you are considering traveling outside the US. He also gave nutshells of each shot. It was a HUGE amount of information, and seemed well balanced, took into account all the research, the concerns, the diseases themselves, and some of the hype on both sides.

I can go into the detailed information for each shot if you want, but its late and I will just put a few things out at first.

His proposed selective schedule is as follows-
2 mo DTaP, Prevnar
4 mo DTaP, Hib
6 mo Hib, Prevnar
9 mo DTaP, Prevnar
12 mo Hib
15 mo Hib, Prevnar
5 years Tetanus booster

He recommended giving them only 1 or 2 at a time to decrease the chances of side effects, and talked about the use of Vitamins A and C prior to and after the shots to help decrease the chances of a reaction.

He considered Meningitis and Pertussis to be the most possible and most serious for infants.

He considered Meningitis possible AND serious for toddlers, but rare beyond age 2.

He considered polio, heb b, diptheria, adn tetanus as diseases that are very serious, but that your young child would NOT catch them.

He considered Measles, Mumps and Rubella as rare adn not serious for infants and toddlers.

He considreed chickenpox to be common and not serious.

He said that if you plan to travel outside the US, that the following shots were important,
Polio- Africa and Asia
Tetanus- wounds more likely on vacation, and less access to a shot while traveling
Hib
Diptheria- check with CDC

He said to consider the following shots for your teens-
Hep B
Chicken pox
Rubella- important for women of child bearing age
Tetanus- boosters every 10 years

He said to ask for blood tests to see if the teen had developed natural immunity already to Measles, Mumps, Rubella, and Chicken Pox.

His nutshells
Hib, rare but serious meningitis. safe ingredients, side effects minimal, no mercury, rated 4/5 score , recommended

DTaP, pertussis serious under age 1, side effects minimal, beef extract the only worry, tripedia vaccine is low mercury in single vial dose (less than .3 micrograms). Most cases of pertussis are unvaccinated. recommended for pertussis, 4/5 score recommended

Prevnar, common and serious meningitis, safe ingredients, more chance of side effects, 4/5 score recommended

MMR, disease usually mild in kids, fairly rare, side effects and ingredients considerable, 50 cases of Measles per year in CA, rubella shot can cause arthristis in women, this shot has the most serious side effect profile. 1/5 score

Heb B, STD, rare in kids, but serious if caught, side effects considerable, ingredients safe, does contain residual formyldehyde, kids 2/5 score, teens, 3/5 score

Chicken pox, disease mild but common, side effects and ingredients considerable, used to have 55 deaths per year, disease waning, kids 2/5 score, 3/5 score for teens

Polio, diseases not in Western Hemisphere, side effects safe, but ingredients questionable, 2/5 score

Of all of these, the serious concerns to public health risk if most decided not to vaccinate, would be Diptheria, Pertussis, and Hib. Obviously Diptheria is not a problem currently, but we would see cases of Pertussis and Hib meningitis increase rapidly if we saw a sudden drop of vaccinations against these diseases.

Anyway, interesting workshop, and it helped me a great deal. I hope it helps others.
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Old 06-09-2005, 06:59 AM
 
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Thank you so much for posting that! I have been so torn on getting my youngest vaxed and this really helps! He is nearly two and hasn't had any yet, and has a heart condition, so he is probably more susceptible to catching things, so I worry about that, but I also worry about any adverse reactions to the vaxes themelves.

I do think that my older boy had an adverse reaction to the MMR, I remember he had a high, high fever and was sick for several days after that and I actually think it had something to do with his speech delay. He was very vocal before the vax and then soon after he stopped and at 3 1/2 he is still a little bit behind in his speech, but making wonderful progress.

homeschool.gifmama to two boys 10 & 8vbac.gif

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Old 06-09-2005, 10:07 AM
 
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WOW. Thanks so much for this post! I wish I could have attended it person, but this is the next best thing. Thanks for your time and the great summary. The only thing I can think is that people should still check with their own docs to see if the risks for certain diseases are higher in their locale (recent outbreaks, etc.).
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:16 AM
 
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That is so weird that he actually recommended prevnar. My son's ds said the vax is so new and so little is known about it that he doesn't recommend it at all (and it's not required in most states). He also said *if* you wanted to get one prevnar, a single shot at 15 months would be sufficient.

Thanks for the info...he does say a lot of good stuff in there!

~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:36 AM
 
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Bob's definitely on the right path. I wish he'd get around to doing his homework on aluminum, though. I think that the more he learns, the shorter his list will become. And I say that meaning to give him credit because a large majority of doctors wouldn't think to change their minds on this issue.
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:46 AM
 
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I agree with you there, Xerxes. Although I personally may not agree with his proposed schedule, I like his thought process & the fact that he's willing to engage in open dialogue about it.
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:31 PM
 
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I'm surprised they're recommending DTaP, especially so young. I think it's one of the most dangerous ones.
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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He also talked about the fact that with certain shots, if you didn't vaccinate for them by the age of two, that it was pointless to do them after that. I think the one he talked about with this was DTaP, as pertussis isn't really serious in older children. Actually as I read this, it seems he might have also meant it for the meningitis vacs as well.

The more I read on the diseases he recommends vaccing for, the more I am sold. He talked about the 19,000 cases of pertussis a year, Dr. Jay Gordon (I went to a workshop by him, and he talked about vaccines as well) and Dr. Bob Sears both talked about the cases of this seen in their own offices and the seriousness of the disease.

As to the Prevnar vac, he talked about how serious this disease is, and how common, something like an estimated 3000 for meningitis, 50,000 for blood, and half a million for pnemonia. He talked about the 8% fatality rate. He also said that there are no worrisome ingredients and no animal tissues used. The highest reactions so far are redness/swelling, and seizures. He did say that the fact that there is no long term safety data as of yet, and the VAERS data were reasons to question using it.

Obviously deciding on what to do is a decision each parent has to make, but I for one am thankful for what seemed to be a balanced approach to the vaccines. Some of the stuff I read on here has me scratching my head sometimes. Conspiracy theories, etc.
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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DTP WAS dangerous, DTaP has minimal side effects. Different shots. He talked about how he felt it was a shame that they included all three together, as the only one thats really needed in young children is Pertussis. Diptheria isnt a risk, and a Tetanus shot for babies is not needed(actually there are only about 50 cases a year, but he did say that those cases were serious, just not a worry in infancy). He did say that if somehow diptheria came back, then of course the D in DTaP would be important, but as of right now its not.

Oh, and as to why so young for DTaP? The P is only needed in infancy, and it is very serious in children under 1 year. Brain damage from lack of oxygen being the biggest concern. So vaccing children early is important for pertussis.
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:03 PM
 
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Some of the stuff I read on here has me scratching my head sometimes. Conspiracy theories, etc.
I certainly agree with you about that.


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He also said that there are no worrisome ingredients and no animal tissues used.
This I do disagree with though. The aluminum content is something I do happen to find worrisome.


Quote:
As to the Prevnar vac, he talked about how serious this disease is, and how common ... Obviously deciding on what to do is a decision each parent has to make
For me, it's important to consider who the people are that usually get invasive pneumococcal disease too, not just the nuber of cases. That may make a difference in how one family assesses their individual risks in comparison to another.
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:11 PM
 
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Hmmm, interesting. Thank you so much for posting - wish I could have been at that workshop! Sounds wonderful.

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Old 06-09-2005, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Amnesiac, care to share your information sources for your aluminum concerns?
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:49 PM
 
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The P is only needed in infancy, and it is very serious in children under 1 year.
Except for that they wouldnt receive the FULL series until they were almost a year anyways.

My ped (when we went) actually said he had seen the worst reactions from the pertussis vaccine.

Desiree

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Old 06-09-2005, 01:52 PM
 
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Aluminum:
EDF Suspected - cardiovascular or blood toxicant, neurotoxicant,
respiratory toxicant. More hazardous than most chemicals in 2 out of 6
ranking systems on at least 2 federal regulatory lists
Quote:
Formaldehyde:
EDF Recognized - carcinogen
Suspected - gastrointestinal or liver toxicant, immunotoxicant,
neurotoxicant, reproductive toxicant, respiratory toxicant
skin or sense organ toxicant
More hazardous than most chemicals in 5 out of 12 ranking systems on
at
least 8 federal regulatory lists Ranked as one of the most hazardous
compounds (worst 10%) to ecosystems and human health
Quote:
Polysorbate:
EDF Suspected - skin or sense organ toxicant
These ingredients are also in the DTaP: http://www.*********/vaccines/ingredients1.html

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Old 06-09-2005, 02:25 PM
 
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I agree with everyone on the DTP. Not just because my kids have survived it either. Pertussis is coming back strong even in places with very high vax rates. No matter how many people they vax pertussis cases keep climbing. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no4/demelker.htm

http://www.whoopingcough.net/complications.htm With so few deaths with such a great number of cases I think that whooping cough isn't so severe as everyone thinks it is. Yes it is really bad for babies under 6 mos, but most babies under 6 mos don't get it. After seeing what its like I have to say there are probably a great deal many people walking around with it contagious and not even know it. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no5/srugo.htm
Quote:
The effects of whole-cell pertussis vaccine wane after 5 to 10 years, and infection in a vaccinated person causes nonspecific symptoms (3-7). Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants (3-11). The whole-cell vaccine for pertussis is protective only against clinical disease, not against infection (15-17). Therefore, even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection.
And another: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5128a2.htm
Quote:
Despite record high vaccination coverage levels with 3 doses of DTaP among U.S. children aged 19--35 months (3), pertussis continues to cause fatal illness among vulnerable infants. During 1980--1998, the average annual incidence of reported pertussis cases and deaths among U.S. infants increased 50% (4). The increased morbidity and mortality occurred primarily among infants aged <4 months, who were too young to have received the recommended three DTaP vaccinations at ages 2, 4, and 6 months
I think if we want to reduce the number of babies who die from pertussis we need to learn how to identify the illness earlier so that we can keep those people away from babies under 6 mos old and teach them proper hygeine so that they reduce the likelyhood of transmitting the disease. Because obviously the vax doesn't work even in herd immunity theory of protecting those too young to get the vax. I also don't belive the theory that vaxing makes the disease less severe. My 4 yr old wasn't vaxed and his case was the mildest amongst my kids.

Thats not even getting into the ingredients or the side effects from the vax.

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Old 06-09-2005, 03:32 PM
 
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Gosh there are hundreds or articles detailing the neurotoxic effects of aluminum. In the primary research where scientists are writing for other scientists, the issue is not debatable - it's stated as fact early on in the article sometimes first thing in the abstract. Here's an example of very recent stuff I was looking up just the other day:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...38&query_hl=23

In addition to the many articles that detail the neurotoxic effects of aluminum in the brain, there is research that shows that the aluminum in vaccines goes quickly into the brain and that aluminum can also remain at the injection site for several years after injection. Aluminum adjuvanted shots have been shown to be the cause of macrophagic myofasciitis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...584&query_hl=6

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...387&query_hl=6

MMF (caused by aluminum adjuvanted vaccine injections) is linked to chronic fatique:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...868&query_hl=6

The research into why aluminum has an adjuvant effect is illuminating as it also describes how aluminum stimulates autoimmune reactions. The antigenic nature of the HepB virus linked to aluminum is responsible for autoimmune diseases. There is so much published research on this, here's one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...55&query_hl=15

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...512&query_hl=6

I'm just a casual collector of research articles and I have over fifty detailing the toxic and neurotoxic effects of aluminum. I offered a small sample but a little searching will quickly turn up many more. Two of the article's I cited are from this year. There's new stuff coming out all the time.

Since I feel that Bob is taking a good approach to vaccination but says that the ingredients in DTP are safe (aluminum is in there) I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's simply ignorant of all this research. Perhaps if he gets exposed to the research he'll re-evaluate his risk assessment of aluminum and drop aluminum adjuvanted vaccines from his short list. At the very least he should mention that aluminum is a well known neurotoxin. Or indicate to his followers that he includes aluminum neurotoxicity in his risk/safety assessment.

And as far as positive research detailing aluminum's safety - there aren't any. Although such testing is required of the viral and bacterial components in vaccines, the same type of clinical trials have never been done for aluminum.
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Old 06-09-2005, 03:41 PM
 
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I just wanted to add that I support a parent's decision to get DPT. I know that pertussis is more frequent and easier to get than most of the other vax diseases. But we should also be aware of the dangers of aluminum.
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Old 06-09-2005, 04:04 PM
 
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I dislike aluminum for a few different reasons. This is the short version because I have munchkins waiting to bake cookies today! The first thing I ever read about aluminum that freaked me out was an AAP report regarding Al toxicity in children. Just go over to their site & search for "aluminum". It's not specifically about any single source, but it does discuss lots of unknowns about exposure. Because I was a dumb , my preemies were on soy formula & after I read that report I could have just died & really wanted to prevent more aluminum exposure.

These I will have to go search for over at PubMed at some point because I don't keep things on file or you can find them for yourself there. Actually Boyd Haley may have them all listed at his site too, you ought to check his site out. You know that study that was just published recently showing how mercury was indeed transported to brain tissue when injected as thimerosal in a vaccine? There was one like that done about 10 years ago showing that aluminum is also transported to brain tissue when injected as vaccine adjuvant. Also if you search for "aluminum toxicology" or "aluminum neurotoxicology" you'll find some things. Obviously this isn't a complete list & I'm sorry I don't have an exact location for these for you right this minute, but it's a start anyway.
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Old 06-09-2005, 04:08 PM
 
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BTW- I didn't look through the links Xerxes gave you, so much of this is probably covered in those.
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Old 06-09-2005, 04:21 PM
 
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I don't know if you have heard of the book "The Vaccine Guide" but it does pretty much the same thing you said sears did. Goes over each illness in detail trying to give you a personal strategy for what to do and when. The book is loaded with references, pages and pages of them in the back, and the author Randall Nuestaedter is an osteopathic doctor. I feel that he is a better resource, not being a pediatrican, because ped. are so targeted by the companies selling the vaccines. This book is one of the best I have seen. I believe vaccine info is best gotten from someone other than a ped. Although if you are familiar with Dr. Mendelson's book, "How to raise a healthy child inspite of your doctor" that is also good and he is an anti-vax pediatrican.
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Old 06-09-2005, 06:02 PM
 
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Old 06-09-2005, 06:05 PM
 
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One more thing- Neustaedter is actually not an osteopath, but rather a doctor of oriental medicine, a homeopath & an accupuncturist.
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Old 06-09-2005, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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As for who to listen to when it comes to vaccines, my personal preference is to talk vaccines with doctors. Now mind you I use accupuncture, and have used natural medicine. But I don't want to get information ONLY from a anti vax doctor, doesnt seem to make sense if you ask me. I liked Dr. Sears and Dr. Gordon because they obviously read and interpret the studies (its what they are taught to do, plus they have the ability to see through vax promotion for the sake of profit), and come up with some tempered conclusions. I am not of a mind that all vaccines are bad, and that no one should get them. Herd immunity is a real issue. Obviously each family gets to make their own decisions, and that is fine, but if everyone decided not to vax, there would be a real ressurgence of some of these diseases. Again, I am not of a mind to believe all the anti vax stuff out there, medicine has helped me and my family over the years, we are not throwing out modern medicine because it has some problems. We just want to be informed, and make our decisions from a place of increased knowledge, not blind trust.

Dr. Sears recommended two books on vax, Dr. Cave's and Romm?

Quote:
The effects of whole-cell pertussis vaccine wane after 5 to 10 years, and infection in a vaccinated person causes nonspecific symptoms (3-7). Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants (3-11). The whole-cell vaccine for pertussis is protective only against clinical disease, not against infection (15-17). Therefore, even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection.
Now as to fullheart's quotes from above. Let's be clear here, there are TWO Pertussis vaccines, whole cell and acellular. To use the whole cell arguments against the DTaP vaccine is disingenuous. The above is talking about whole cell, WE are not discussing whole cell, at least I am not.

As to ingredients in vaccines. Yes, I am certainly concerned about them. But to talk about toxicity with certain ingredients is again disingenuous if you don't talk about how MUCH is in the vaccines. We all ingest aluminum, polysorbate is contained in many things, heck we inhale and ingest mercury as well, and even formeldehyde. The concern shouldn't be over just the ingredient, but how MUCH? Obviously each child is different, every vaccine contains different things, of varying amounts. We need to weigh all the risks obviously, and of course different people will come to different conclusions.

Quote:
I also don't belive the theory that vaxing makes the disease less severe. My 4 yr old wasn't vaxed and his case was the mildest amongst my kids.
Theory? From what I have read there have been verified studies showing this. Anecdotal evidence about your son isn't enough imo to suggest that no one get the vaccine. Pertussis is a very serious problem, I think it needs serious consideration, and vaccines CAN help prevent or lessen the infection.
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Old 06-09-2005, 08:40 PM
 
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The concern shouldn't be over just the ingredient, but how MUCH?
I think opinions vary about that. For me personally, a little bit of mercury isn't really ok no matter where it's from & I really do try to reduce exposure from all sources. I wouldn't choose a thimerosal preserved vaccine, I don't eat seafood & if I found out I lived near a coal burning power plant I'd move. That's just me though because I know that for plenty of folks, the dose is what makes the poison. So if you feel that just a little bit more can't hurt then I'm all for your right to make that choice.

I feel that same about aluminum although I might be willing to consider one aluminum containing vaccine but it wouldn't have pertussis in it. I don't find pertussis vaccines to be effective enough to justify their use.

Quote:
Now as to fullheart's quotes from above. Let's be clear here, there are TWO Pertussis vaccines, whole cell and acellular. To use the whole cell arguments against the DTaP vaccine is disingenuous. The above is talking about whole cell, WE are not discussing whole cell, at least I am not.
I assume maybe the DTwP info was for historical purposes since she immediately followed it with the DTaP info?? wP didn't work well as it was & what we have now is a trade off. Even lower efficacy in exchange for lower reactogenicity. Maybe the little bit that it can work sometimes is enough for a lot of parents, just not me.
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Old 06-09-2005, 09:06 PM
 
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The amount of aluminum in vaccines is far greater (logarithmically so) than concentrations measured to be neurotoxic. I agree that the amount is important but aluminum is in vaccines in doses that exceed what has been found to cause tissue damage. Also the form it is in (aluminum hydroxide) is highly dissociable so the equilibrium of Al ions in the blood and tissue is proportionally very high. One last point, the articles I cited - all of them - support vaccination. They are primary research articles. You can analyze their experimental methods and determine for yourself if their conlusions are legitimate. And they were all published in peer-reviewed scientific journals (not the newspaper or some advocacy website).

All I'm saying is that it's probably a good idea to seriously consider aluminum in the risk/benefit analysis of aluminum containing vaccines (such as DPT). So when you hear Bob saying that the ingredients in DPT are safe but he hasn't mentioned aluminum, you have to wonder about that.
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Old 06-09-2005, 09:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jwebbal
Theory? From what I have read there have been verified studies showing this. Anecdotal evidence about your son isn't enough imo to suggest that no one get the vaccine. Pertussis is a very serious problem, I think it needs serious consideration, and vaccines CAN help prevent or lessen the infection.

If you have those studies please post. There was a thread I started not too long ago when I was complaing about the HD and our WC and someone asked that question. No one had any links I don't think. My 4yr old isnt the only person I have seen with a mild case that wasn't vaxed btw. I guess I can keep my anecdotal evidence out of this forum.

Michelle

Expecting #9.  Always busy hsing.
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Old 06-09-2005, 09:26 PM
 
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BTW, it certainly wasn't disingenuous for me not to mention the concentrations of aluminum in my first post since the articles I cited discuss this in their research. You need to actually read them to get that info. I didn't post that stuff thinking only the titles were relevant. I think people looking into DPT should actually go get the articles and read them. Now I'm not saying you personally have to go and read that stuff. It's sufficient to say that there's no point in debating the relevance of the information in these scientifically peer-reviewed articles if only one of us has read them.
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Old 06-10-2005, 12:20 PM
 
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Since you mentioned that Dr Gordon was there as well, I thought I'd add this link just for interest. This is an old pertussis discussion back when Dr Gordon visited here for a while:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=147447
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Old 06-10-2005, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Old 06-10-2005, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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