What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 15 - Mothering Forums

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#421 of 433 Old 12-15-2008, 02:15 PM
 
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By research, I mean as close to primary as possible.

To make my decision, I looked at things like numbers of cases of diseases, ingredients in vaccines, reported reactions and side effects, disease treatments and stats, etc.

-Angela
Logical, straightforward and not too intimidating at first glance.

But when you look at say reported reactions, do you look only at the official reported reactions or do you look at the contested ones too (when parents claim a reaction and doctors deny it)?

When you research disease treatments, do you have to read medical journals to get the latest expert debate about treatments?

How does this process end?
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#422 of 433 Old 12-15-2008, 02:26 PM
 
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Thanks PaigeC for a great post. That's very interesting about polio, in particular.

The conflict of interest in scientific research is of course a huge problem. It's amazing that scientists were ever able to prove (if it's really proof) that breastmilk is good and smoking is bad, considering the market forces they were up against. I guess it took a lot of time and persistence to do so. But I'm not an expert in the history of science either so I'm not sure how long.

Still, why do we question vaccines and not other things? Canada's Food Guide tells me what food to eat--should I go research debates among nutrionists about whether it's right? What about soap? We all use soap to fend off disease, we don't really question handwashing. But people make money of soap, it has side-effects (eczema), it's preventing us from getting sick and thus allowing us to strengthen our immune system. How about traffic lights? I trust those to keep me safe and I have no idea how they work.

Yes, all this is a rationalization of my fear and laziness when it comes to vaccine research. If anyone's read all my silly posts so far, sorry for using up precious minutes of your time that could have been spent on actually researching knowledge rather than arguments!
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#423 of 433 Old 12-15-2008, 02:36 PM
 
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Re the list of ingredients: do I need to research whether these ingredients are in vaccines, or does everyone including the manufacturer agree and admit that they are in there? That is, is there any controversy or disagreement about whether these ingredients are in vaccines?
The ingredients are agreed upon and listed in the vaccine inserts. They are not trying to hide what in them. The disagreement is if the amounts are harmful. There may be some disagreement on some of them but there are enough out in the open to make further research (on ingredients only) unnecessary IMO.

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#424 of 433 Old 12-15-2008, 02:56 PM
 
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Thank you, rainashine.

I feel I shouldn't have hijacked this thread, which began way back in '06 with the question "In light of recent threads, I've begun to really wonder why people who truly research decide to vax?" I haven't truly researched at all. This thread is for posts like the excellent one from carriebft. So, I'll shut up now.
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#425 of 433 Old 12-15-2008, 02:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Murihiku View Post
Logical, straightforward and not too intimidating at first glance.

But when you look at say reported reactions, do you look only at the official reported reactions or do you look at the contested ones too (when parents claim a reaction and doctors deny it)?

When you research disease treatments, do you have to read medical journals to get the latest expert debate about treatments?

How does this process end?

Even just looking at official reactions gives you lots of info (VAERS) And VAERS and the CDC admit that at BEST 10% of reactions are reported.

Disease treatments I usually go to old parenting or nursing books. There ARE no *new* treatments for the measles for example.

-Angela
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#426 of 433 Old 12-15-2008, 02:59 PM
 
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#427 of 433 Old 12-15-2008, 03:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Murihiku
Canada's Food Guide tells me what food to eat, should I go research debates among nutrionists about whether it's right?
I would personally. If Canada's food pyramid is anything like America's, it was influenced by several industries. Grains are not the food group to eat the most of to be healthy, imo. This comes from research into the government's food recommendations' conflict of interest and human evolution.
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#428 of 433 Old 12-15-2008, 03:05 PM
 
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well, there is a bit of a question for some people about whether they've actually removed all the thimerosal like they said they did. there's really no oversight or proof of this other than their word. I don't know one way or the other, but I wouldn't doubt if there are teeny tiny traces in a couple of the "thimerosal free" vaccines. Teeny tiny is the scientific term, btw.

I think sometimes it's about the approach you take to "researching". If you're trying to disprove that vaccines are necessary and healthy, that's sort of a complicated, mucky way of going about it. The way I look at it, I don't need to disprove their conclusions- I need to start at baseline- my healthy child- and prove to myself why I *need* to inject something into her. Not the other way around. The other thing is not to group them all together. There are no "vaccines" or "immunizations". There is hep B, varicella, MMR, dtap, Hib, etc. One by one by one. I start with the disease. If we're not worried about the disease, the only type of "research" necessary to do on the vaccine is read why it's recommended, then fact check that recommendation against the actual numbers of children harmed by the disease. For that reason, chicken pox is welcome in my household. I haven't bothered reading the package insert for varivax because it's a non-issue- I don't care what's in it, because I'm not concerned about the disease.

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#429 of 433 Old 12-15-2008, 03:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Murihiku
What about soap? We all use soap to fend off disease, we don't really question handwashing. But people make money of soap, it has side-effects (eczema), it's preventing us from getting sick and thus allowing us to strengthen our immune system.
Different soaps have different benefits and risks (i.e., those with anti-microbials and those without.) And I can buy hand-made soap from people who live in my area.

I don't agree that not getting sick strengthens the immune system in normal, healthy people either. Does not exercising improve cardiovascular health?

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#430 of 433 Old 12-17-2008, 01:17 AM
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If you're trying to disprove that vaccines are necessary and healthy, that's sort of a complicated, mucky way of going about it. The way I look at it, I don't need to disprove their conclusions- I need to start at baseline- my healthy child- and prove to myself why I *need* to inject something into her. Not the other way around.
Amen! I was blogging about this a few weeks ago. Why, in a society where criminals are innocent until proven guilty, does the burden of proof rest on the shoulders of a small child and the parents instead of on the syringe full of questionable substances and the company that put it there?

We have the justice system we do because we feel that the risk of letting a guilty person go free is preferable to denying the rights of an innocent man. Why then do we prefer that some innocent children be collateral damage (at worst, or lab rats at best) to the system.
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#431 of 433 Old 12-17-2008, 05:51 AM
 
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Amen! I was blogging about this a few weeks ago. Why, in a society where criminals are innocent until proven guilty, does the burden of proof rest on the shoulders of a small child and the parents instead of on the syringe full of questionable substances and the company that put it there?

We have the justice system we do because we feel that the risk of letting a guilty person go free is preferable to denying the rights of an innocent man. Why then do we prefer that some innocent children be collateral damage (at worst, or lab rats at best) to the system.
I have been thinking very similar thoughts

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#432 of 433 Old 12-18-2008, 08:17 PM
 
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: vaccines (and pharmaceuticals in general) are capitalist jokes... in a capitalist economy the company would have to prove their product is safe and effect... but the big bad pharma doesn't have to do that... it is just assumed their products are safe and effective...and we know its not b/c they have such a stellar track record... so um.. i wonder why that is.
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#433 of 433 Old 12-19-2008, 12:01 AM
 
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Very interesting thread! i just got through it!

Paigec- you are a very wise women, you have put into words a lot of what i feel and think, but much more eloquently then i ever could. Your little girl is so lucky to have you as her mum I agree whole hartedly with what you say about aneed to educate on how to educate ourselves. I grew up with a mother who always encouraged and at times forced me to question, to never be afraid to ask the question and to not take the first answer either. This led me to my home birth, and to non vaxing and to lots of other changes in my life, as simple as using henna dye rather then chemical. But a lot of people dont know what questions to ask, they dont even know there is a question let alone how to get answers! For example my cousin recently had a baby who is 2 months younger then my Penelope, i was seeing hime recently after his 4 month shots, now this baby is not well, he is not breastfed, has had to have sugery on this stomach valves that had further complications, has continuous colds and minor infection, as well as alergies and intolerences and skin problems, he is very frail and yet they vax him on schedual, he looked very sick afterwards. But my cousin didnt know what the shots were for, i dont mean that he didnt know what diseases they were, i mean he had no idea at all what they did! all he knew is that the baby needs thier shots. How do you combat that sort of ignorance? how can these people even know where to start?

Vaxines make me so angry! the thing is i am not anti vaxine, i am pro informed choice and consent, and i just dont see that happening. Take my example, how is that an informed choice on my cousins part?

As a disclaimer i am a bit of a conspiracy theorist with slight leanings towards anarchy (good traits in a mother? ) but i really think this is a huge experiment on the part of big pharma and goverments. I am not sure about in the US but in OZ the highest rates of non vaxing are in the upper middle classes and higher, mainly in "well educated" families. Seems to me that this could be away to keep the unwashed masses in their place.
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