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#31 of 433 Old 12-26-2006, 07:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kdtmom2be View Post
So why will I ultimately vax my own children? Because the system here forces you to vaccinate for certain things or they won't let you put your kids in the public school system!
I live in Canada too. You can get an exemption. Its VERY easy.


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SOME vaccines do SOME good.... the polio vaccine nearly erradicated a deadly and harmful disease.
I think saying the polio vaccine eradicated a deadly and harmful disease is
somewhat untrue. Maybe someone else can add to that as I don't have links on the computer that we are on right now (we are away for xmas).
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#32 of 433 Old 12-26-2006, 07:29 PM
 
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#33 of 433 Old 12-26-2006, 08:04 PM
 
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How do you know it was the vaccines that caused the regression?

i imagine i can never be certain whether it was the vaccine or another environmental, or a genetic factor that triggered the development of definitive symptoms and the loss of communication. for me, the coincidence is too suspicious. i believe my son had a genetic predisposition and the vaccines were a trigger. especially since his symptoms developed on the later side of the normal appearance of autistic type behavior and happened to coincide with vaccination - particularly after the cp vaccine (his last). do I think the cp vaccine is more dangerous than any other of the vaccines he received? No. i believe though that the cp was the straw that broke the camel's back. It was with that dose that his system reached its toxic overload and could no longer cope. even without definitive 'proof' that vaxes were a trigger - i'd much rather take my chances with the vpds than risk that my choice to inject his system with toxins could cause more damage.
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#34 of 433 Old 12-26-2006, 08:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea View Post
What do you mean by "raw numbers"...what was your source for these numbers?

If you click here and scroll down to #4 there is a chart which explains "risk from disease vs. risk from vaccines"

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/...inepreventable
Even if we take the cdc statistics as a given, which mamakay has pointed out is hard to do once you look beyond the parent pages, this is still a patently dishonest chart. That chart is presented as if your child will automatically get measles or pertussis or whatever if they are not vaccinated. If you are worried about serious complications from these diseases, you have to first consider the chances of actually getting the disease. Multiply that risk by the risk of complication once you get the disease and you have a much smaller number.

Also, the numbers they are using for risk of vaccine reaction are patently dishonest as well. Perhaps one in a million will have an immediate severe allergic reaction to MMR, but what about all the other longer term reports of reaction, or longer term consequences. I think most families who don't vaccinate are concerned not only with acute reactions but also with chronic problems such as long term alteration to immune function, which will not show up until much later.
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#35 of 433 Old 12-26-2006, 10:12 PM
 
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I think most families who don't vaccinate are concerned not only with acute reactions but also with chronic problems such as long term alteration to immune function, which will not show up until much later.
Exactly.
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#36 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 12:22 AM
 
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When I first started on my vax or not to vax research, I was bombarded by both extremes. I don't trust extremes. I had a hard time finding good, sound research that was objective, unbias, and not supported by either extreme.

You read things like:

Two recent studies indicate that religious and philosophical exemptions to immunizations increase cases of disease. Daniel Feikin et al. in “Individual and community risks of measles and pertussis associated with personal exemptions to immunization,” JAMA 284 (December 27, 2000):3145-50, studied all reported confirmed measles cases among Colorado children aged 3 to 18 years during 1987-1998 and all reported confirmed and probable pertussis cases among the same population for 1996-98. The authors found that exemptors were 22 times more likely to acquire measles and 6 times more likely to acquire pertussis than vaccinated children. Furthermore, the authors found that at least 11% of vaccinated children who contracted measles acquired the infection through contact with an exemptor. Daniel Salmon, et al., “Health consequences of religious and philosophical exemptions from immunization laws: individual and societal risk of measles,” JAMA 282 (July 7, 1999):47-53, found children with religious or philosophical exemptions from immunizations were 35 times more likely to contract measles than vaccinated children.

And it does kinda scare people into vaxing. Even when they know the potential side effects. This research has been a bit : at times and I see why some people just say forget it and go with what the doctors say.

We're still on the fence about vaxing. IF we do, I won't until he's at least 2 and it will be a select few. I'm hoping there will be some more unbias longitudinal research by then as I know of several valid studies being conducted now. Right now, I say no vax.
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#37 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 02:10 AM
 
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In Canada you can legally exempt your children from vaccines and still send them to public school:

http://www.vran.org/legal/forms.htm
well, I'm not in one of the three provinces with legal exemption, but I'll have to look into the "informed consent" part of things. thanks for the info.

Mom to Kayleigh (05/07) Jacob (05/09) and Ned decluttering 615/2010
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#38 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 02:29 AM
 
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well, I'm not in one of the three provinces with legal exemption, but I'll have to look into the "informed consent" part of things. thanks for the info.
Oh I forgot to add, I have relatives in Ontario with 4 unvax'd kids and they've been able to get an exemption. Hope that helps!
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#39 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 02:42 AM
 
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when you hear a good provax reason- meaning, one that hasn't been completely disassembled, shredded up, chewed and spit out by the incredible wealth of knowledge in this forum that the provaxers haven't bothered to read- let me know. I'd like to hear it.

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#40 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 02:48 AM
 
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www.ewg.org/reports/bodyburden1/es.php
The vast majority of chemicals people are exposed to come from sources other than vaccines.
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#41 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 02:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 2kids-mommy View Post
www.ewg.org/reports/bodyburden1/es.php
The vast majority of chemicals people are exposed to come from sources other than vaccines.
so? that means we should add more by vaccinating?

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#42 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 03:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bri276 View Post
when you hear a good provax reason- meaning, one that hasn't been completely disassembled, shredded up, chewed and spit out by the incredible wealth of knowledge in this forum that the provaxers haven't bothered to read- let me know. I'd like to hear it.
So, we have about 40 cases of tetanus a year in the US.
Find me 40 DT reactions that are as horrific as the 40 cases of tetanus.
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#43 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 03:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 2kids-mommy View Post
www.ewg.org/reports/bodyburden1/es.php
The vast majority of chemicals people are exposed to come from sources other than vaccines.

Which vaccine ingredient causes the following recognized vaccine adverse reactions:

encephalitis
diabetes
thrombocytopenic purpura
GBS
meningitis
seizure disorder
convulsions
crying/screaming syndrome
diarrhea
hair loss
tranverse myelitis
multiple sclerosis
optic neuritis
chronic arthritis
death
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#44 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 03:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 2kids-mommy View Post
www.ewg.org/reports/bodyburden1/es.php
The vast majority of chemicals people are exposed to come from sources other than vaccines.
Have you seen this?
What do you think about it?
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ght=Chris+Shaw
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#45 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea View Post
What do you mean by "raw numbers"...what was your source for these numbers?

If you click here and scroll down to #4 there is a chart which explains "risk from disease vs. risk from vaccines"

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/...inepreventable
Quote:
Research is underway by the U.S. Public Health Service to better understand which vaccine adverse events are truly caused by vaccines and how to reduce even further the already low risk of serious vaccine-related injury.
WHY hasn't this research been done already?!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :
How many more children must die or be permanently injured????
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#46 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:05 AM
 
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My child is more likely to be be harmed by the disease than by the vaccination. Easy decision. That's the main reason. Is it so mind boggling someone might have a different opinion?
Then someone went on to post a link from the CDC

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Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea View Post
What do you mean by "raw numbers"...what was your source for these numbers?

If you click here and scroll down to #4 there is a chart which explains "risk from disease vs. risk from vaccines"

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/...inepreventable
Well here's another quote from CDC about harm from disease risk vs harm from vaccines,


Decreases In Disease Risks

Today, vaccine-preventable diseases are at or near record lows. By virtue of their absence, these diseases are no longer reminders of the benefits of vaccination. At the same time, approximately 15,000 cases of adverse events following vaccination are reported in the United States each year (these include both true adverse reactions and events that occur coincidentally after vaccination). This number exceeds the current reported incidence of vaccine-preventable childhood diseases. As a result, parents and providers in the United States are more likely to know someone who has experienced an adverse event following immunization than they are to know someone who has experienced a reportable vaccine-preventable disease. Thus, the success of vaccination has led to increased public attention on health risks associated with vaccines.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/safety.pdf

My 4th child is still recovering from his 6 month round of vaccines, given on 9/27/99.
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#47 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 10:47 AM
 
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double post
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#48 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 10:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
So, we have about 40 cases of tetanus a year in the US.
Find me 40 DT reactions that are as horrific as the 40 cases of tetanus.
For 2005, fifty-six (56) reports of "death" following DT/DTaP (most within 24 hours of vaccination): http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...O=1&PERPAGE=10

For 2005, forty-two (42) reports of "life threatening" reaction to DT/DTaP: http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...O=1&PERPAGE=10

Of course, these are just the reported cases.

FTR, VAERS follows up with the provider and/or patient/parent with each of these types of reports.
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#49 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 10:49 AM
 
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Not only would it practically take a divine intervention for an unvaxed child to actually contract tetanus, but it would take two divine interventions for tetanus to kill a child.

A vaccinated child has a better chance dying from one of the DTaP vaccine doses, than an unvaccinated child even contracting tetanus, let alone dying from it.
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#50 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 11:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kdtmom2be View Post
well, I'm not in one of the three provinces with legal exemption, but I'll have to look into the "informed consent" part of things. thanks for the info.
Those are the only 3 provinces with laws on the books regarding vaccines; in other words, since there are no official laws in the other provinces you cannot be forced to vaccinate. Schools and doctors may tell you that you have to vaccinate because "its the laws" but there is no to back up that statement.

Take advantage of this; many of us in the US can only wish it was this easy for us to opt our kids out!
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#51 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 12:50 PM
 
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So, we have about 40 cases of tetanus a year in the US.
Find me 40 DT reactions that are as horrific as the 40 cases of tetanus.
First, we have to define "horrific." From Merriam-Webster we get:

Quote:
having the power to horrify
So we go to "horrify" and we get:

Quote:
to cause to feel horror
to fill with distaste : SHOCK
Then we go to "horror" and we find:

Quote:
painful and intense fear, dread, or dismay <astonishment giving place to horror on the faces of the people about me -- H. G. Wells> b : intense aversion or repugnance
I personally know 2 people who had "horrific" reactions to dt (not dpt as you left out the p part on purpose). Myself and a close friend. I've already detailed my reactions in other posts, and my friend suffered partial paralysis. His hands just started to function again after several months (they called in Guillain-Barre). That's two of your 40.

Here's a link to the contraindications for dt.

http://www.dhs.ca.gov/PS/dcdc/izgrou...IZ%20Guide.pdf

The National Institutes of Health define GB as rare b/c it affects less than 200,000 people per year. Finding exact numbers is hard but if it's anywhere in the tens of thousands that is a lot of "horrific" situations. I don't pretend to state that all GB cases are related to dt but let's also keep in mind the number of non-reported or under-reported cases. How many people's immune systems fall apart like mine did? It's ridiculous the lack of reporting of vaccine reactions by doctors. We will never, ever even come close to knowing real numbers to "horrific" reactions to dt.

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#52 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 02:24 PM
 
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I personally know 2 people who had "horrific" reactions to dt (not dpt as you left out the p part on purpose). Myself and a close friend. I've already detailed my reactions in other posts, and my friend suffered partial paralysis. His hands just started to function again after several months (they called in Guillain-Barre). That's two of your 40.
Make that 3! The only vaccine I ever got in my entire life was a tetanus shot at 18 years old. About 10 minutes after the shot I collapsed and went into shock. Within 1 month my weight dropped down to 86lbs because my body was no longer absorbing nutrients from food. I had constant, watery diahrea (sp) and no energy whatsoever. It took a good 3 years to get my health back and to be able to keep some weight on.
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#53 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 02:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LongIsland View Post
For 2005, fifty-six (56) reports of "death" following DT/DTaP (most within 24 hours of vaccination): http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...O=1&PERPAGE=10

For 2005, forty-two (42) reports of "life threatening" reaction to DT/DTaP: http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...O=1&PERPAGE=10

Of course, these are just the reported cases.

FTR, VAERS follows up with the provider and/or patient/parent with each of these types of reports.
Well, you know how I like to play devil's advocate. And since you're taking me up on my argument, I guess I'll hash this out with you.

Let's nevermind children for a minute.
I can't argue that an unvaxed child has a snowball's chance of getting tetanus. But what about older adults?
Can you tell from VAERS which of those reactions were due to the "P" portion?
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#54 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 02:29 PM
 
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The National Institutes of Health define GB as rare b/c it affects less than 200,000 people per year. Finding exact numbers is hard but if it's anywhere in the tens of thousands that is a lot of "horrific" situations. I don't pretend to state that all GB cases are related to dt but let's also keep in mind the number of non-reported or under-reported cases. How many people's immune systems fall apart like mine did? It's ridiculous the lack of reporting of vaccine reactions by doctors. We will never, ever even come close to knowing real numbers to "horrific" reactions to dt.
Yeah, GBS qualifies as horrific.
Hmm...

How can you estimate how many people a year might develop GBS after/because of the DT?
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#55 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 02:57 PM
 
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I'd also say it's fear of disease. I decided to get the polio shot for my son and I got one dtap that caused a reaction. I will continue with the polio shot boosters, but not the dtap. At birth, I decided to get the vitamin k shot only because he's a 3rd child and his likeliness of bodily injury seemed high to me knowing my children.

My dh had mumps and said it wasn't that big of a deal, I had chicken pox and it wasn't a big deal. We're healthy, so I'm not that afraid of whooping cough, but I'd rather avoid it. Hep B? Not scared.

My first son was fully vaxed until 3 and my daughter was selectively vaxed until 18 months. My baby has had those three shots I talked about earlier.

The thing that made me start to research was that when my daughter was born 5 years ago, the doctor came into my room to do the hep b shot. I said "why does she need that shot?" and the dr said "it's no big deal, we can wait until later" So, I felt that she was really against giving the shot to my daughter. I started asking more questions after that. It's like, before, I never realized that I had a choice and that these things could just wait until later, or were entirely optional.

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#56 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 02:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Well, you know how I like to play devil's advocate. And since you're taking me up on my argument, I guess I'll hash this out with you.

Let's nevermind children for a minute.
I can't argue that an unvaxed child has a snowball's chance of getting tetanus. But what about older adults?
Can you tell from VAERS which of those reactions were due to the "P" portion?
Now I understand why you want to concentrate on older adults because of the virtually nonexistent chance of an unvaxed child getting tetanus, but that's changed now with the recent licensure of two Tdap vaccines. Tdap has been recommended to replace T and Td for all adolescents and adults AND regardless of whether you're in the ER with a wound.

Let's also talk about the tetanus "high riskers." Those being IV drug users (IDU's) and diabetics and how they fit into the annual tetanus incidence rate.
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#57 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 03:19 PM
 
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Now I understand why you want to concentrate on older adults because of the virtually nonexistent chance of an unvaxed child getting tetanus, but that's changed now with the recent licensure of two Tdap vaccines. Tdap has been recommended to replace T and Td for all adolescents and adults AND regardless of whether you're in the ER with a wound.

Let's also talk about IV drug users and diabetics and how they fit into the annual tetanus incidence rate.
What's going to happen with the Tdap regarding reactions is an unknown so far. Maybe adults won't react? Maybe it'll be unreal how many reactions there are?
Who knows?

Honestly, this keeps boiling down to unknowns on both sides, although the "provax" side gets unspoken bonus points for being "official" for some illogical reason.
That's the problem with VAERS, too. Yes, some of the reported reactions will probably be "coincidence". But it makes no sense to assume because some will be coincidence that ALL of them have to be coincidence. And that logical fallacy that pediatricians are so universally prone to make is what shields manufacturers from having to pay a dime when their product kills people.

So...I dunno. There's a lot of guesswork happening no matter which side you argue.
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#58 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post

So...I dunno. There's a lot of guesswork happening no matter which side you argue.
But it is guesswork or unknowns favored by the pro vax side? Ughhh it's kind of like I'm laying in the street dying and two guys come up....one in a suit and one that appears homeless.....they both offer me medicine but the guy in the suit offers me medicine from his pocket...not in a bottle....the homeless guy offers me medicine that is completely sealed ....which one do I trust? I'd probably trust the clean guy in the suit because even though he has the more risky medicine, he fits in better with society and can be trusted more. Ok, REALLY BAD analogy but it made sense to me

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#59 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 03:58 PM
 
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But it is guesswork or unknowns favored by the pro vax side? Ughhh it's kind of like I'm laying in the street dying and two guys come up....one in a suit and one that appears homeless.....they both offer me medicine but the guy in the suit offers me medicine from his pocket...not in a bottle....the homeless guy offers me medicine that is completely sealed ....which one do I trust? I'd probably trust the clean guy in the suit because even though he has the more risky medicine, he fits in better with society and can be trusted more. Ok, REALLY BAD analogy but it made sense to me
I think that's a perfect analogy, actually. I totally, totally see what you mean.
The unknowns do make you want to default to trusting the CDC/doctors. But when you logically work it out, their actual arguments aren't all that.

Eh, what a messy thing to try to wrap your mind around.
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#60 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 04:23 PM
 
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So, we have about 40 cases of tetanus a year in the US.
Find me 40 DT reactions that are as horrific as the 40 cases of tetanus.
someone else already did- but now you show me evidence that I should worry about tetanus. even if you only want to focus on adults. 40 cases of tetanus out of how many people who are not up to date on their tetanus vax? with what type of wound care? with what immune system issues or living conditions?

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