What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 12-27-2006, 05:30 PM
 
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***Edited by mod due to copyright issues***



*found this interesting, the URL to the complete article is:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/5/447
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Old 12-27-2006, 05:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
High vaccination levels in the surrounding community and low rates of vaccine failure averted an epidemic.
Noooooo . . . isolation of the infected individuals and natural immunity "averted" spread of the disease.

If one of those homeschooled, measles-infected individuals would have spent a few days in one of the area grammar schools, something tells me we would have seen A LOT of vaccinated school children coming down with measles, not to mention MMR-vaccinated adults.
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Old 12-27-2006, 05:47 PM
 
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***Edited by mod due to copyright issues***



*found this interesting, the URL to the complete article is:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/5/447
Someone linked to this recently. Know what's interesting to me? No deaths. No problems. A few dozen people got a mild disease and got over it

Where's the scare?

-Angela
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Old 12-27-2006, 05:47 PM
 
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***Edited by mod due to copyright issues***



*found this interesting, the URL to the complete article is:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/5/447
How many people died?
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Old 12-27-2006, 05:52 PM
 
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How many people died?
none
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Old 12-27-2006, 05:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bri276 View Post
someone else already did- but now you show me evidence that I should worry about tetanus. even if you only want to focus on adults. 40 cases of tetanus out of how many people who are not up to date on their tetanus vax? with what type of wound care? with what immune system issues or living conditions?
Lol...I know the provax argument here is sort of anemic, but...
Ok...sure, they're generally elderly and diabetic. But how do you know that those 40 cases a year in that group wouldn't be 80 cases a year if they weren't getting vaccinated?
Going from memory, around 50% of that population is considered "undervaccinated".
So how do you know that there aren't 40 cases of tetanus a year prevented by vaccination?
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Old 12-27-2006, 05:58 PM
 
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none
No way!

...but starving kids in Africa die from measles all the time!
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:02 PM
 
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It's interesting that in Germany, where parents tend to think vaccinating for measles is sort of silly, and they do "measles parties" like US parents do "chickenpox parties"...those kids don't die from measles, either.
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ew/2002/020321.asp

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One of the affected regions is the county and town of Coburg in Bavaria, where an outbreak began in an anthroposophical school in November 2001. Anthroposophical teaching discourages measles vaccination, and therefore measles outbreaks have been reported in such schools in other countries (1). The outbreak spread to various other schools and daycare facilities and has not yet been controlled. With a total of 910 cases the cumulative incidence from November to mid-March reached 671 per 100 000 inhabitants. The age specific attack rate was highest in age group 1-4 years with 54 cases per 1000 children. Thirty one per cent of all cases (n=285) were reported in this group. Most cases occurred among children aged 5-9 years (n=377, 41% of all cases) which gives an attack rate of 50 cases per 1000 children. In age group 10-14 years 161 cases were reported, accounting for 20 cases per 1000 children of that age. Vaccine coverage is low in the region, as many parents refuse to have their children vaccinated against measles. According to data from school entrance examinations performed from 1998-1999 only 76% of children aged 5-6 years were vaccinated at least once against measles. The outbreak has been largely limited to the town and county of Coburg, with a few isolated cases in children who attend schools in Coburg but live elsewhere. This is probably due to the higher vaccine coverage in most of the neighbouring counties, where >90% of children with known vaccination status were vaccinated when starting school (http://www.landkreis-coburg.de/aktuell/masern2.html). Of the 910 cases, 37 patients were admitted to hospital, but no deaths were reported
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:04 PM
 
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No way!

...but starving kids in Africa die from measles all the time!
AMAZING! huh?

-Angela
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It's interesting that in Germany, where parents tend to think vaccinating for measles is sort of silly, and they do "measles parties" like US parents do "chickenpox parties"...those kids don't die from measles, either.
But could one argue that there are perhaps different strains of measles in Germany than in the US and/or vaccines have caused some strains of measles to be more resistant to conventional treatment and therefore vaccinating here would protect kids against said super bugs? (does that make sense?)

ETA: by conventional treatment, I mean chicken soup and vit c...no vaccines

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Old 12-27-2006, 06:25 PM
 
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Death is not the only bad thing that can result from measles. There's also brain damage, encephalitis, breathing issues, deafness, and meningitis to worry about.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/m/measles/complic.htm

Just pointing out that simply because no one of that 37 actually DIED, doesn't mean a disease is "harmless."

And yes, I absolutely would worry about my child contracting a disease where 1 in 2000 wind up brain damaged. The risks of the vaccine seem far smaller no matter how I look at it. However, I don't believe that the only people to have complications from VPD's are unhealthy, dirty, or underfed. Certainly middle-class Americans have had their share of complications with all of these VPD's and the majority of them are not unhealthy, dirty, or malnourished.

Roosevelt contracted polio as a perfectly healthy adult. He didn't *die*, but I doubt he'd have called polio harmless.
http://www.americanpresident.org/his...lanoroosevelt/

Given the cases of measles, rubella, polio and pertussis amongst the Amish, is the feeling there that the Amish only get them because *they* are unhealthy?
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHe...ealth/tb1/1935

If so, what exactly is required to be healthy enough to shrug off these VPD's? How do you create the ultimate in bulletproof immune systems? I would love to know, and avoid getting the flu this year!
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Going from memory, around 50% of that population is considered "undervaccinated". So how do you know that there aren't 40 cases of tetanus a year prevented by vaccination?
The 40 annual cases of tetanus do not occur in only the elderly population. More than half the adult U.S. population (20+ years of age) are not "protected" against tetanus.
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prettypixels View Post
Death is not the only bad thing that can result from measles. There's also brain damage, encephalitis, breathing issues, deafness, and meningitis to worry about.
The MMR VACCINE causes brain damage, including encephalitis and a slew of other serious adverse reactions. In fact, MMR-vaccine induced encephalitis is a VICP tabled vaccine injury. TRANSLATION: It happens often enough (and with permanent brain injury and death) that we can't even try to hide it, so we had to table the injury.

AND the MMR vaccine causes meningitis as well.

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Originally Posted by prettypixels View Post
Roosevelt contracted polio as a perfectly healthy adult. He didn't *die*, but I doubt he'd have called polio harmless.
http://www.americanpresident.org/his...lanoroosevelt/
Roosevelt is now believed by researchers to have suffered from Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS), not polio. Incidentally, GBS is a recorgnized vaccine adverse reaction. And no, GBS is not "harmless."
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:35 PM
 
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But could one argue that there are perhaps different strains of measles in Germany than in the US and/or vaccines have caused some strains of measles to be more resistant to conventional treatment and therefore vaccinating here would protect kids against said super bugs? (does that make sense?)

ETA: by conventional treatment, I mean chicken soup and vit c...no vaccines
Naw...they're not saying that. The "official" argument is that we have to vaccinate to protect the immunocompromised. (the very rare child who measles might seriously injure or kill).
Which is very clever, coz if you don't go "Oooh, ok...good idea" then that makes you selfish.

Angela's thinking is actually correct, though, in my opinion. My job as a parent is to protect MY child. That is job#1 in my life.
If that makes me a selfish bi**h, then whatever. That's life.

If the measles vax wasn't doing weird stuff that the PTB seem to want to pretend isn't happening, then ok...maybe I'd be cool with that plan.
But as it stands, nope.
And making nonvaxers feel guilty for wanting to protect their own kids is messed up. It's coercive, manipulative nonsense.
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prettypixels View Post
Death is not the only bad thing that can result from measles. There's also brain damage, encephalitis, breathing issues, deafness, and meningitis to worry about.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/m/measles/complic.htm

Just pointing out that simply because no one of that 37 actually DIED, doesn't mean a disease is "harmless."

And yes, I absolutely would worry about my child contracting a disease where 1 in 2000 wind up brain damaged. The risks of the vaccine seem far smaller no matter how I look at it. However, I don't believe that the only people to have complications from VPD's are unhealthy, dirty, or underfed. Certainly middle-class Americans have had their share of complications with all of these VPD's and the majority of them are not unhealthy, dirty, or malnourished.

Roosevelt contracted polio as a perfectly healthy adult. He didn't *die*, but I doubt he'd have called polio harmless.
http://www.americanpresident.org/his...lanoroosevelt/

Given the cases of measles, rubella, polio and pertussis amongst the Amish, is the feeling there that the Amish only get them because *they* are unhealthy?
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHe...ealth/tb1/1935

If so, what exactly is required to be healthy enough to shrug off these VPD's? How do you create the ultimate in bulletproof immune systems? I would love to know, and avoid getting the flu this year!

PP,
We're not saying that health keeps you from catching viruses. That's silly.
How many of those unvaxed Amish were paralyzed?

Do you think it's a coincidence that it's usually immunocompromised kids that have complications with chickenpox and measles?
Or are you denying that it's the immunocompromised that have issues with these viruses alltogether?
What makes you think that, if so?
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:43 PM
 
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Do you think it's a coincidence that it's usually immunocompromised kids that have complications with chickenpox and measles?
Excellent point . . . and there's no coincidence.
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:45 PM
 
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The 40 annual cases of tetanus do not occur in only the elderly population. More than half the adult U.S. population (20+ years of age) are not "protected" against tetanus.
But still, how do you know those 40 cases wouldn't be 80 cases if not for tetanus shots?

(I realise that the "number needed to treat" here is astronomical...vaccinating 300 million people to prevent 80 deaths...but still.)
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:51 PM
 
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But still, how do you know those 40 cases wouldn't be 80 cases if not for tetanus shots?

(I realise that the "number needed to treat" here is astronomical...vaccinating 300 million people to prevent 80 deaths...but still.)
The 40 annual cases of tetanus = 40 annual deaths?
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:54 PM
 
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Ok, pretty pixels...I've got a homework project for you.
I want you to find out exactly how many non-immunocompromised kids have to catch measles before you'll find a case of braindamage or death.
Is it 4000? 8000? 20,000?
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:59 PM
 
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The 40 annual cases of tetanus = 40 annual deaths?
Well, tetanus sucks so bad when it happens that I was thinking of it like death. But you're right. Tetanus doesn't always result in death. But it's sort of a "fate worse than death" kind of thing.

But anyway...
Is there an argument out there that the shot isn't preventing 40 cases of tetanus?
Other than MT's vax non-responders/natural immunity non-responders one? (which is really quite plausible, in a way, except for the CDC's statement that the few cases of tetanus happen in unvaccinated people...but they might just be making that up, like they like to do, too.)
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:59 PM
 
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Roosevelt contracted polio as a perfectly healthy adult. He didn't *die*, but I doubt he'd have called polio harmless.
http://www.americanpresident.org/his...lanoroosevelt/
How do you know that FDR was a perfectly healthy adult? What do you know about his personal health profile?

ETA I did a google of FDR and it turns out he was a chain smoker. Not exactly what I would consider healthy.
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:07 PM
 
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i would like to post another article and avoid copyright infringment issues (unlike last post).

i found this article interesting.
here is a blurb:

We found that websites critical of vaccines claim that vaccines cause illness, claim that vaccines are contaminated, promote the idea that the vaccines are only temporarily effective, encourage alternative medicine, claim conventional medicine is wrong, make emotive appeals, and make ethical allegations about conspiracy, cover-up, civil liberty violations, totalitarianism, and immorality...many of the arguments in use today parallel those used in the past. For instance, during the late 19th century, objections to smallpox and typhoid vaccinations included the following: vaccination is against the laws of nature, good hygiene provides adequate protection against disease, vaccines can transmit other diseases, and compulsory vaccination is a violation of one's liberty [34,35]. These arguments are similar to those espoused by current vaccine critics who hold that natural therapies and alternative medicine are preferable for prevention of infectious disease, vaccines cause idiopathic illness, and school entry vaccination requirements violate civil liberties [13,14]. Furthermore, the ethical allegations remain quite strident, including purported collusion among government, the medical establishment, and pharmaceutical companies that is motivated by profit [35]. Finally, opponents of vaccination dramatize relatively rare adverse events to overshadow vaccination's enormous public health benefits [15]. This is an especially effective tactic now, as the toll from a number of infectious diseases fades from the public memory {as a result of universal vaccinations}.

source: J Med Internet Res. 2005 Apr–Jun; 7{2}: e17.
Published online 2005 June 29. doi: 10.2196/jmir.7.2.e17.
Copyright © Richard K Zimmerman, Robert M Wolfe, Dwight E Fox, Jake R Fox, Mary Patricia Nowalk, Judith A Troy, Lisa K Sharp. Originally published in the Journal of Medical Internet Research {http://www.jmir.org}, 29.6.2005. Except where otherwise noted, articles published in the Journal of Medical Internet Research are distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License {http://www.creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/}, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited, including full bibliographic details and the URL {see "please cite as" above}, and this statement is included.
Vaccine Criticism on the World Wide Web
Richard K Zimmerman, MD, MPH, 1,2 Robert M Wolfe, MD,3 Dwight E Fox, DMD,1 Jake R Fox, MA,1 Mary Patricia Nowalk, PhD, RD,1 Judith A Troy, MS,1 and Lisa K Sharp, PhD3
Richard K Zimmerman, Department of Family Medicine and Clinical Epidemiology, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, 3518 5th Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15261, USA, Phone: +1 412 383 2354, Fax: +1 412 383 2306, Email: [email protected].
Reviewed by L Nasir and Julie Leask
3Department of Family Medicine, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Chicago, IL, USA
2Department of Behavioral and Community Health Sciences, University of Pittsburgh Graduate School of Public Health, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
1Department of Family Medicine and Clinical Epidemiology, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Corresponding author.
Received January 28, 2005; Revisions requested February 25, 2005; Revised May 16, 2005; Accepted June 8, 2005.
The publisher's final edited version of this article is available at J Med Internet Res.
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:08 PM
 
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How do you know that FDR was a perfectly healthy adult? What do you know about his personal health profile?

ETA I did a google of FDR and it turns out he was a chain smoker. Not exactly what I would consider healthy.
It couldn't have been polio, anyway. Polio is an enterovirus, and was absolutely endemic in the prevaccine era. No person in the US could avoid contracting it in childhood. Sort of like how rotavirus is now. It's a given that your kid is definitely going to catch it.

That's why now they think it had to be GBS, not polio. Paralytic polio in adulthood was virually impossible because everyone was immune to the virus by the end of childhood.
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
i would like to post another article and avoid copyright infringment issues (unlike last post).

i found this article interesting.
here is a blurb:

We found that websites critical of vaccines claim that vaccines cause illness, claim that vaccines are contaminated, promote the idea that the vaccines are only temporarily effective, encourage alternative medicine, claim conventional medicine is wrong, make emotive appeals, and make ethical allegations about conspiracy, cover-up, civil liberty violations, totalitarianism, and immorality...many of the arguments in use today parallel those used in the past. For instance, during the late 19th century, objections to smallpox and typhoid vaccinations included the following: vaccination is against the laws of nature, good hygiene provides adequate protection against disease, vaccines can transmit other diseases, and compulsory vaccination is a violation of one's liberty [34,35]. These arguments are similar to those espoused by current vaccine critics who hold that natural therapies and alternative medicine are preferable for prevention of infectious disease, vaccines cause idiopathic illness, and school entry vaccination requirements violate civil liberties [13,14]. Furthermore, the ethical allegations remain quite strident, including purported collusion among government, the medical establishment, and pharmaceutical companies that is motivated by profit [35]. Finally, opponents of vaccination dramatize relatively rare adverse events to overshadow vaccination's enormous public health benefits [15]. This is an especially effective tactic now, as the toll from a number of infectious diseases fades from the public memory {as a result of universal vaccinations}.

.
Yeah, that's us to some extent. The question is, are we right or are we wrong?

Would you like to discuss the "vaccines are contaminated" claim first?
That's my personal favorite. :
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i would like to post another article and avoid copyright infringment issues (unlike last post).

Finally, opponents of vaccination dramatize relatively rare adverse events to overshadow vaccination's enormous public health benefits [15]. This is an especially effective tactic now, as the toll from a number of infectious diseases fades from the public memory {as a result of universal vaccinations}.
Articles like this are a dime a dozen but where is the PROOF? They state "relatively rare adverse events" but what proof do they use to back that up? Prepare for another bad analogy but these articles remind me of the kid on the playground that's bullying someone and his friends are behind him going "yeah, yeah" and repeating everything he's saying without THINKING for themselves....grrrrr

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Old 12-27-2006, 07:19 PM
 
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Iamleabee, what do you make of this?
It's an FDA meeting on the issue of animal viruses accidentally making it into vaccines and infecting people.
They go over the ones you can find in pubmed like SV40 in the OPV, and BVDV in the MMR first, and then there's this:

http://www.fda.gov/cber/minutes/0910evolv.txt





Quote:
Now the regulatory authorities in the room will be well aware of a large number of other examples of this type which don't actually get published. I think that's not so good. I think this stuff really should be out there in the public literature. But nonetheless, these are the ones which are well known, I think.
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I understand from some of the remarks that have been made that there are others that are known to a small coterie of people here that have not been publicly declared. I urge all of you to think about this seriously because it can and will have a great impact on this industry. Thank you.

DR. MINOR: I agree totally with that. It does seem to me that sooner or later the information will leak out. I think the industry looks very bad.
(bolding mine)
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:20 PM
 
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Articles like this are a dime a dozen but where is the PROOF? They state "relatively rare adverse events" but what proof do they use to back that up? Prepare for another bad analogy but these articles remind me of the kid on the playground that's bullying someone and his friends are behind him going "yeah, yeah" and repeating everything he's saying without THINKING for themselves....grrrrr
:

Obstruct livery vehicles!

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Old 12-27-2006, 07:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mykdsmomy View Post
But could one argue that there are perhaps different strains of measles in Germany than in the US and/or vaccines have caused some strains of measles to be more resistant to conventional treatment and therefore vaccinating here would protect kids against said super bugs? (does that make sense?)

ETA: by conventional treatment, I mean chicken soup and vit c...no vaccines
In reference to the measles "parties" - My MIL grew up in NYC in the 30's and 40's and they had measles parties there too. She also remembers taking her oldest son to a mumps "party" in the 60's.
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mykdsmomy View Post
Articles like this are a dime a dozen but where is the PROOF? They state "relatively rare adverse events" but what proof do they use to back that up? Prepare for another bad analogy but these articles remind me of the kid on the playground that's bullying someone and his friends are behind him going "yeah, yeah" and repeating everything he's saying without THINKING for themselves....grrrrr
It's called "ad hominem" and it's a very effective provaccine argument.
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Yeah, that's us to some extent. The question is, are we right or are we wrong?

Would you like to discuss the "vaccines are contaminated" claim first?
That's my personal favorite. :
"are we right or are we wrong?" i don't know that that question can be answered. i'm pretty sure i can't answer it.

but somebody else wrote a while back that they do not see how any thinking knowlegeable person can choose to immunize their child. that's short sighted. some of the data supporting immunizations are very very good. some of the anti-vax data is pretty bad, and alot of it is connected with various religious groups, anecdotal evidence, and offers to buy things.
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