What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
"are we right or are we wrong?" i don't know that that question can be answered. i'm pretty sure i can't answer it.

but somebody else wrote a while back that they do not see how any thinking knowlegeable person can choose to immunize their child. that's short sighted. some of the data supporting immunizations are very very good. some of the anti-vax data is pretty bad, and alot of it is connected with various religious groups, anecdotal evidence, and offers to buy things.
We don't use bad data in this forum, and I, for one, acknowledge valid provaccine arguments. (Like I was doing with tetanus.)
It's not a black and white issue in my mind. I don't think vaxers are stupid.
But there's provaccine "bad data", too. And they're selling stuff, too. Obviously...lol...
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#92 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:31 PM
 
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Prettypixels, didn't we go over this bit about measles causing deafness with Shodan?

Please show me where this happens?
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#93 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
"are we right or are we wrong?" i don't know that that question can be answered. i'm pretty sure i can't answer it.

but somebody else wrote a while back that they do not see how any thinking knowlegeable person can choose to immunize their child. that's short sighted. some of the data supporting immunizations are very very good. some of the anti-vax data is pretty bad, and alot of it is connected with various religious groups, anecdotal evidence, and offers to buy things.
can you provide us links to this "very very good" data? and links of connections to religious groups or offers to buy things? or are you merely giving us anecdotes?

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#94 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
"are we right or are we wrong?" i don't know that that question can be answered. i'm pretty sure i can't answer it.

but somebody else wrote a while back that they do not see how any thinking knowlegeable person can choose to immunize their child. that's short sighted. some of the data supporting immunizations are very very good. some of the anti-vax data is pretty bad, and alot of it is connected with various religious groups, anecdotal evidence, and offers to buy things.
Perhaps you are right, and definitive answers are hard, but I think we can take each of the claims one by one, as mamakay suggests, and see it the arguments are compelling. Wouldn't that be a rational, good evidence approach?

So, are vaccines contaminated?
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#95 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:36 PM
 
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BTW, I am completely willing to be convinced by good arguments, evidence and logic. But vague references to good data, and claims that there are scary websites out there don't fall into the good arguments category for me.

Come on, back to the OP, let's hear some good arguments for vaccines. I am all ears.
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#96 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sophiekat View Post
can you provide us links to this "very very good" data? and links of connections to religious groups or offers to buy things? or are you merely giving us anecdotes?
No, they exist. I've come across those sites. But most the posters here ignore sites like those since they're questionable. Google "shirley's wellness cafe" if you want to see a goofy antivax site selling weird stuff.

That's not where we get our information from, though. I think provaxers think we do, but we don't.
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#97 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:42 PM
 
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I've thoroughly read this thread and have yet to see anything big or impressive so I'll just sit back and keep eating my popcorn and wait. : I'd love to paricipate more fully but my poor keyboard has been broken...

Just so you know I've been waiting for big and impressive for over five years now.
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#98 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post

source: J Med Internet Res. 2005 Apr–Jun; 7{2}: e17.
Published online 2005 June 29. doi: 10.2196/jmir.7.2.e17.
Copyright © Richard K Zimmerman, Robert M Wolfe, Dwight E Fox, Jake R Fox, Mary Patricia Nowalk, Judith A Troy, Lisa K Sharp. Originally published in the Journal of Medical Internet Research {http://www.jmir.org}, 29.6.2005. Except where otherwise noted, articles published in the Journal of Medical Internet Research are distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License {http://www.creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/}, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited, including full bibliographic details and the URL {see "please cite as" above}, and this statement is included.
Please note the part where it says "INCLUDING FULL BIBLIOGRAPHIC DETAILS AND THE URL"

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#99 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:48 PM
 
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bad data, IMHO:

“I helplessly watched my daughter suffer an excruciatingly slow death as she screamed and arched her back in pain, while the vaccine did as it was intended to do and assaulted her immature immune system. The poisons used as preservatives seeped through her tiny body, overwhelming her vital organs one by one until they collapsed. It is an image that will haunt me forever and I hope no other parent ever has to witness it. A death sentence considered too inhumane for this county's most violent criminals was handed down to my beautiful, innocent, infant daughter, death by lethal injection.”
(www.mercola.com/2002/aug/7/vaccine_death.htm)

“Then one word can describe this new video, 'Vaccines: What CDC Documents and Science Reveal,' by world-renowned vaccine expert Dr. Sherri Tenpenny: essential. To put it simply, if you are dedicated to protecting and enhancing your life, your family's, or your patients', but you have not been exposed to the often startling but thoroughly documented information in this video, there is a dangerous gap in your knowledge. Whether you have explored the issue of the dangers of vaccines extensively or not at all, I more than recommend you watch this video—I implore you to do so. Available on VHS. Just $24.95.”
(www.mercola.com/forms/vaccine_video.htm)


(the quote below is from a reverend who is pro-life and is antivax because many vaxes are cultured on stem cells. but she does not disclose her religious bias in her anti-vax statements.)

REFUSAL OF RECOMMENDED VACCINES



Patient Name_______________________________ Birthdate_______________

As the parent/guardian of __________________________, I have investigated the risks and benefits of the following vaccines and diseases. I am aware that there are documented cases of people contracting diseases for which they are clinically fully immunized and that the manufacturers of the vaccines do not guarantee 100% efficacy. I am also aware that VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System) documented cases of over 54,000 adverse reactions from vaccines in a 20-month period. The National Vaccine Injury Fund, created in 1986 to compensate those damaged by vaccines has paid out over one billion dollars in compensation to date.

from: Complied by Rev. Kathryn E. Rateliff, CCD, CCCE, SM
October, 1999

Kathy is an ordained minister, certified christian doula (CCD), certified christian childbirth educator (CCCE), graduate midwife, parenting educator, monitrice, administrator for T2 Shepherd Ministries, volunteer staff chaplain at the Tarrant County jail, wife and professional mom. In addition to her two surviving natural children, Kathy has a daugther-in-love, adopted children, step-children, and foster children. Her total number of children as of October, 2004 is 75. their ministry believes: Jesus, fully God and fully man, came to bring reconciliation between God the Father and His children. He lived a sinless life, spent three and one half years in ministry to show us the Father, instituted the church, died a horrible death on the cross to pay our sin penalty, and rose victorious three days later to show His power over death, hell and the grave. He took stripes on His back for our healing, and took our shame on Himself so that we could stand righteous in Him before the Father. We believe He sits at the right hand of the Father, ever interceeding for us. We believe He will return for those believers who look for Him some day soon, and we shall meet Him in the air. We believe He will return bodily to reign and rule on the earth for a thousand years and that His Saints will return with Him to work.


next post: data i find persuasive
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#100 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:57 PM
 
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Given the cases of measles, rubella, polio and pertussis amongst the Amish, is the feeling there that the Amish only get them because *they* are unhealthy?
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHe...ealth/tb1/1935
pp I am not Amish, but I got measles, rubella (and mumps for that matter) as a healthy child. Do you realize there actually benefits to these diseases?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=582840

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#101 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
bad data, IMHO:

“I helplessly watched my daughter suffer an excruciatingly slow death as she screamed and arched her back in pain, while the vaccine did as it was intended to do and assaulted her immature immune system. The poisons used as preservatives seeped through her tiny body, overwhelming her vital organs one by one until they collapsed. It is an image that will haunt me forever and I hope no other parent ever has to witness it. A death sentence considered too inhumane for this county's most violent criminals was handed down to my beautiful, innocent, infant daughter, death by lethal injection.”
(www.mercola.com/2002/aug/7/vaccine_death.htm)
That would be ancedotal story. Unforuneatly I've read countless descriptions like the one above about severe adverse reactions.
Quote:
“Then one word can describe this new video, 'Vaccines: What CDC Documents and Science Reveal,' by world-renowned vaccine expert Dr. Sherri Tenpenny: essential. To put it simply, if you are dedicated to protecting and enhancing your life, your family's, or your patients', but you have not been exposed to the often startling but thoroughly documented information in this video, there is a dangerous gap in your knowledge. Whether you have explored the issue of the dangers of vaccines extensively or not at all, I more than recommend you watch this video—I implore you to do so. Available on VHS. Just $24.95.(www.mercola.com/forms/vaccine_video.htm) ”
that's no bad data...tha's not even data.


Quote:

REFUSAL OF RECOMMENDED VACCINES



Patient Name_______________________________ Birthdate_______________

As the parent/guardian of __________________________, I have investigated the risks and benefits of the following vaccines and diseases. I am aware that there are documented cases of people contracting diseases for which they are clinically fully immunized and that the manufacturers of the vaccines do not guarantee 100% efficacy. I am also aware that VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System) documented cases of over 54,000 adverse reactions from vaccines in a 20-month period. The National Vaccine Injury Fund, created in 1986 to compensate those damaged by vaccines has paid out over one billion dollars in compensation to date.

next post: data i find persuasive
the bolded is provable facts.

I'm all eyes
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#102 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 06:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by uccomama View Post
pp I am not Amish, but I got measles, rubella (and mumps for that matter) as a healthy child. Do you realize there actually benefits to these diseases?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=582840
: the Amish aren't exactly dropping like flies, last I knew.
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#103 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 07:03 PM
 
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: the Amish aren't exactly dropping like flies, last I knew.
Neither are the Germans.
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#104 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 07:11 PM
 
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here is one study i like:

URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15364187

short quote from link: "Controls were matched on age, sex, and general practice. FINDINGS: 1294 cases and 4469 controls were included. 1010 cases (78.1%) had MMR vaccination recorded before diagnosis, compared with 3671 controls (82.1%) before the age at which their matched case was diagnosed. After adjustment for age at joining the database, the odds ratio for association between MMR and pervasive developmental disorder was 0.86 (95% CI 0.68-1.09). Findings were similar when restricted to children with a diagnosis of autism, to those vaccinated with MMR before the third birthday, or to the period before media coverage of the hypothesis linking MMR with autism. INTERPRETATION: Our findings suggest that MMR vaccination is not associated with an increased risk of pervasive developmental disorders."



article from:
Pediatrics. 2006 Jul;118(1):e139-50.

short quote:"A statistically significant linear increase in pervasive developmental disorder prevalence was noted during the study period. The prevalence of pervasive developmental disorder in thimerosal-free birth cohorts was significantly higher than that in thimerosal-exposed cohorts (82.7 of 10000 vs 59.5 of 10000). Using logistic regression models of the prevalence data, we found no significant effect of thimerosal exposure used either as a continuous or a categorical variable. Thus, thimerosal exposure was unrelated to the increasing trend in pervasive developmental disorder prevalence. These results were robust when additional analyses were performed to address possible limitations because of the ecological nature of the data and to evaluate potential effects of misclassification on exposure or diagnosis"



a retraction from 10 of the 12 authors of the original mmr-autism article based on 12 children in the UK:


"We wish to make it clear that in [the 1998] paper no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient. However, the possibility of such a link was raised and consequent events have had major implications for public health. In view of this, we consider now is the appropriate time that we should together formally retract the interpretation placed upon [the] findings in the (1998) paper, according to precedent."
from Retraction of an Interpretation by Simon H Murch, Andrew Anthony, David H Casson, Mohsin Malik, Mark Berelowitz, Amar P Dhillon, Michael A Thomson, Alan Valentine, Susan E Davies, John A Walker-Smith (10 of the original 12 authors; John Linnell could not be reached)"

ETA: moderators: thanks for your hard work!

overall: i think people who chose to immunize their children are not unthinking, and have considered reasons for their decisions, just as those who chose to decline vaxes are not unthinking and have considered reasons for their decisions.
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#105 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 07:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
"are we right or are we wrong?" i don't know that that question can be answered. i'm pretty sure i can't answer it.

but somebody else wrote a while back that they do not see how any thinking knowlegeable person can choose to immunize their child. that's short sighted.
On whose part? The person who chose to vaccinate without fully researching, or the person who made the comment that they couldn't understand how people who fully research would vaccinate?
Quote:
some of the data supporting immunizations are very very good.
Then show it to us.

Quote:
some of the anti-vax data is pretty bad,
Here? Then show it to us.

Quote:
and alot of it is connected with various religious groups,
So. What's wrong with that? A lot of doctors are also in religious groups, and some of what they do originates from that premis.

Are they saying that anything linked to religious principles in any way, is invalid?

Quote:
anecdotal evidence,
That's pretty funny, because I could put up eons of medical articles which show that over 80% of how the medical profession operates these days is primarily based on anecdotal evidence. (Because when anecdote comes from doctors its science and when it comes from non-doctors its anecdote, is my favourite way of explaining it)
Quote:
and offers to buy things.
You mean, they haven't looked at their own medical journals? That has to be one of the funniest arguments out, given that the experts in extorting money off ordinary people are the medical profession/pharmaceutical backers.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#106 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 07:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
overall: i think people who chose to immunize their children are not unthinking, and have considered reasons for their decisions, just as those who chose to decline vaxes are not unthinking and have considered reasons for their decisions.
Have you read the simpsonwood transcript?
Also, do you understand that the author retractions with the MMR thing were only about the *causes autism* part of the studies?
They weren't retracting the findings of the measles virus in the guts of autistic kids. They were retracting the logical conclusion that it was a cause and effect relationship.
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#107 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 07:31 PM
 
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Oh ok...iamleabee is making the point that mercola was trying to make money off an anti-vax video, I understand now.
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#108 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 07:56 PM
 
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So why will I ultimately vax my own children? Because the system here forces you to vaccinate for certain things or they won't let you put your kids in the public school system! Why not homeschool? Simple, finances. BUT, I don't have to vax them until age 5, and not for everything, just a select few.
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Originally Posted by kdtmom2be View Post
well, I'm not in one of the three provinces with legal exemption, but I'll have to look into the "informed consent" part of things. thanks for the info.
Actually, none of the provinces "legally" require you to vaccinate. Not vaccinating is really simple in Canada and vaxes can be refused on the basis of medical, religious or philisophical reasons in all of the provinces and territories. The Canadian constitution is designed so that vaxes can't be mandated as a requirement for school entry without the option to opt out. In all but 3 provinces you don't even need to complete an exemption or anything. Here in Alberta I don't have to do anything to send my kids to school or put them in a dayhome. I just say we don't vax and that's it. So if you've been told differently, you've been lied to..
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#109 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 07:57 PM
 
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and *clearly* drug companies don't have anything ($$$$$) to gain from selling vaccines . . . . :

Obstruct livery vehicles!

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#110 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sophiekat View Post
and *clearly* drug companies don't have anything ($$$$$) to gain from selling vaccines . . . . :
And it's a lot more than just the vaccines. It's a huge chunk of the system you end up opting out of once you start applying skepticism towards pharmaceuticals. Once you realise that everything is not always exactly what it appears to be, you're less likely to fall for a lot of the marketing.
I don't know if they realise that or not, though.
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#111 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:07 PM
 
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That's not where we get our information from, though. I think provaxers think we do, but we don't.
Ya know why they think we do? The CDC tells implies we do on their "parenting" pages.
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#112 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:11 PM
 
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Ya know why they think we do? The CDC tells implies we do on their "parenting" pages.
Ad hom at it's finest.

Clever little ....folks.

Have I mentioned how much I hate the CDC lately?
I really do. I really, really do.:
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#113 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:15 PM
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Because when anecdote comes from doctors its science and when it comes from non-doctors its anecdote, is my favourite way of explaining it
Funny that you mentioned it Just yesterday someone read on a strictly medical 'professional' board about HepB virus transmission through saliva (not parenterally) and asked me if I ever heard or read anything about it. I said I haven't, and then this person wondered why the other doctors never questioned this statement or asked for a source. Then we found the answer in the same thread, from a mod - whenever someone without a medical diploma comes with a questionable idea, they must provide a link to the source. Whenever they receive an answer from a medical doctor, they are not to ask further questions. A source from a doctor is not required - a doctor is a source : I kid you not.
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: the Amish aren't exactly dropping like flies, last I knew.
And they seem to be lacking autistic children as well.

We don't see the CDC beating down their doors in order to find out why though, hmmm?
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#115 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:17 PM
 
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Ad hom at it's finest.

Clever little bastards.

Have I mentioned how much I hate the CDC lately?
I really do. I really, really do.:



Oh, those CDC "parent" pages.
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#116 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:26 PM
 
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overall: i think people who chose to immunize their children are not unthinking, and have considered reasons for their decisions, just as those who chose to decline vaxes are not unthinking and have considered reasons for their decisions.
I very strongly disagree. While there may be a small # of parents who have researched carefully and still decide to vaccinate, the vast majority of parents, IME, do not think about it at all. I know that I vaccinated my first child because I did not have any idea that there was anything to think about, and I am the kind of person who thinks about everything. In fact, every time I have discussed this issue with my friends who vaccinate they cannot even tell me what shots their children have received. And I am talking about a very highly educated (ivy league advanced degree) cohort of parents.

On the other hand, I do not know a single non vaxing family that has not given the issue very serious thought (although I am sure there are a few bandwagoners, I think they are a very small minority).

This is just my experience, but it is an across the board experience. The decision not to vaccinate is very, very different than the decision (if it can be called a decision at all) to vaccinate.
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#117 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:32 PM
 
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The decision not to vaccinate is very, very different than the decision (if it can be called a decision at all) to vaccinate.
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#118 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:33 PM
 
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Slightly OT, but about the credentials topic...

A few years ago DH got into a heated debate about training martial arts while pregnant, and the risks, ethics, etc about it. He was winning the debate thoroughly, but one somewhat prominent member of the forum (and dojo) didn't like his opinions and first personally attacked him, and then got an OB friend of hers who does martial arts to post about how safe it was. She just started with pat answers and "slogans" about how well padded and protected a fetus is... It was clearly expected that her MD was going to back everyone down and "win" the debate without merit.

So DH called her on the lack of solid evidence to back her assertions, etc... So she started using bigger medical terms, citing irrelevant but intentionally misleading studies, and DH just took her apart on it - purely on the logic.

Though he did use a particularly hilarious spin on the "lack of evidence to the contrary means X is safe" arguement... He used it to "prove" that humans can safely walk on the moon without technological help. Line for line replacing what she had said about fetal protection during trauma.

So everyone jumped all over DH... like "Whoa! You really crossed the line by disrespecting a doctor!! OMG!!" and "That was just over-the-top!"

The reason I bring it up... Doctors state something, it's perceived as fact no matter how absurd and illogical it is. Pointing out those flaws in reason without an MD after your name makes you a flake, quack, or just plain meanie.


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#119 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aira View Post
So everyone jumped all over DH... like "Whoa! You really crossed the line by disrespecting a doctor!! OMG!!" and "That was just over-the-top!"

The reason I bring it up... Doctors state something, it's perceived as fact no matter how obsurd and illogical it is. Pointing it out without an MD after you name makes you a flake, quack, or just plain meanie.
Or a blasphemer.
It's a cult. I swear that's what it looks like from my POV.
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#120 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:48 PM
 
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Exactly. Don't dare challenge the religion. The inquisition will come a-knockin'.


BTW, I hate it when I get quoted before I edit for spelling and syntax! Everyone can see what a I am...
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