What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:50 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
bad data, IMHO:

“I helplessly watched my daughter suffer an excruciatingly slow death as she screamed and arched her back in pain, while the vaccine did as it was intended to do and assaulted her immature immune system. The poisons used as preservatives seeped through her tiny body, overwhelming her vital organs one by one until they collapsed. It is an image that will haunt me forever and I hope no other parent ever has to witness it. A death sentence considered too inhumane for this county's most violent criminals was handed down to my beautiful, innocent, infant daughter, death by lethal injection.”
(www.mercola.com/2002/aug/7/vaccine_death.htm)

“Then one word can describe this new video, 'Vaccines: What CDC Documents and Science Reveal,' by world-renowned vaccine expert Dr. Sherri Tenpenny: essential. To put it simply, if you are dedicated to protecting and enhancing your life, your family's, or your patients', but you have not been exposed to the often startling but thoroughly documented information in this video, there is a dangerous gap in your knowledge. Whether you have explored the issue of the dangers of vaccines extensively or not at all, I more than recommend you watch this video—I implore you to do so. Available on VHS. Just $24.95.”
(www.mercola.com/forms/vaccine_video.htm)


(the quote below is from a reverend who is pro-life and is antivax because many vaxes are cultured on stem cells. but she does not disclose her religious bias in her anti-vax statements.)

REFUSAL OF RECOMMENDED VACCINES



Patient Name_______________________________ Birthdate_______________

As the parent/guardian of __________________________, I have investigated the risks and benefits of the following vaccines and diseases. I am aware that there are documented cases of people contracting diseases for which they are clinically fully immunized and that the manufacturers of the vaccines do not guarantee 100% efficacy. I am also aware that VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System) documented cases of over 54,000 adverse reactions from vaccines in a 20-month period. The National Vaccine Injury Fund, created in 1986 to compensate those damaged by vaccines has paid out over one billion dollars in compensation to date.

from: Complied by Rev. Kathryn E. Rateliff, CCD, CCCE, SM
October, 1999

Kathy is an ordained minister, certified christian doula (CCD), certified christian childbirth educator (CCCE), graduate midwife, parenting educator, monitrice, administrator for T2 Shepherd Ministries, volunteer staff chaplain at the Tarrant County jail, wife and professional mom. In addition to her two surviving natural children, Kathy has a daugther-in-love, adopted children, step-children, and foster children. Her total number of children as of October, 2004 is 75. their ministry believes: Jesus, fully God and fully man, came to bring reconciliation between God the Father and His children. He lived a sinless life, spent three and one half years in ministry to show us the Father, instituted the church, died a horrible death on the cross to pay our sin penalty, and rose victorious three days later to show His power over death, hell and the grave. He took stripes on His back for our healing, and took our shame on Himself so that we could stand righteous in Him before the Father. We believe He sits at the right hand of the Father, ever interceeding for us. We believe He will return for those believers who look for Him some day soon, and we shall meet Him in the air. We believe He will return bodily to reign and rule on the earth for a thousand years and that His Saints will return with Him to work.


next post: data i find persuasive
If that is your definition of "data" then the TV ads put out by the health department to emotionally blackmail you to vaccinate your kids must qualify as "data".

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#122 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:53 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Iamleabee.


Does this article from a provaccine website, fulfill your definition of measles "data"?

If so, why?

http://www.immune.org.nz/?t=699

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#123 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:57 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Here's some more meningitis "data":

http://www.immune.org.nz/?t=702

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#124 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 08:59 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Here's some chickenpox "data" too:

http://www.immune.org.nz/?t=708

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#125 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:00 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,639
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
If that is your definition of "data" then the TV ads put out by the health department to emotionally blackmail you to vaccinate your kids must qualify as "data".
Librarians actually do define data AND information AND knowledge.

So, data is the raw numbers and facts, organized in some way, but not summarized or presented to make it easy. Think the census tables before they have been analyzed, or the VAERS case histories if you just started reading them at random.

Information has been worked through and is presented in a more or less finished form. Journal articles are a good example. Information isn't necessarily true, just organized and analyzed.

Knowledge happens only within human beings who have experiences, collect data and information and then think about it, digest it, turn it this way and that and then make it their own. An example would be riding a bicycle, which is knowledge that is so well digested that it has gotten into your physical body. By this definition, there is no such thing as a body of knowledge, there are only human beings, in bodies, who sometimes know things.

So the data won't tell us anything one way or the other until we organize it and analyze it.

And the organized and analyzed data won't tell us anything until we think about it.

Thinking is sort of important.
Deborah is online now  
#126 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:01 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Here's some polio "data":

http://www.immune.org.nz/?t=711

http://www.immune.org.nz/?t=705

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#127 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:03 PM
 
NYCVeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On my couch
Posts: 5,189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Lol...I know the provax argument here is sort of anemic, but...
So how do you know that there aren't 40 cases of tetanus a year prevented by vaccination?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
But still, how do you know those 40 cases wouldn't be 80 cases if not for tetanus shots?

(I realise that the "number needed to treat" here is astronomical...vaccinating 300 million people to prevent 80 deaths...but still.)
I haven't read all the reponses, but mine would be this: where is the evidence that the 40 cases of tetanus that occur in the US are among people that haven't gotten the vax? Because that's the only way this argument can be meaningful. It is not only the unvaxed who get V"P"Ds. In the recent measles "outbreak", I think around 2/3 of those who contracted it were vaxed (and who knows how many who didn't show symptoms). Pertussis is notorious for infecting "protected" people.

And what is the efficacy of the tetanus vax, anyway?
NYCVeg is offline  
#128 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:10 PM
 
FrederickMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: somewhere
Posts: 711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
Wow:
FrederickMama is offline  
#129 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:14 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Here is some rubella "data":

http://www.immune.org.nz/?t=701

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#130 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:18 PM
 
LongIsland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 11,712
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCVeg View Post
I haven't read all the reponses, but mine would be this: where is the evidence that the 40 cases of tetanus that occur in the US are among people that haven't gotten the vax?
The CDC's tetanus surveillance has this information. Most adults are not "adequately protected," so they'll be people who get tetanus who are vaccinated, don't remember getting vaccinated or not vaccinated at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCVeg View Post
And what is the efficacy of the tetanus vax, anyway?
Oh, but the tetanus vaccine boasts an efficacy rate of 100%


I'm not kidding - the Pink Book says 100%

Yes people, when an Elvis sighting is more likely to happen than an unvaxed individual getting tetanus, of course the vaccine is going to look like it's 100% effective.
LongIsland is offline  
#131 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:19 PM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
Here's some more meningitis "data":

http://www.immune.org.nz/?t=702
We don't have that vax yet here in the US for kids. (clinical trials are happening right now, though).
Reading that is like seeing into the future in a way. Weird. Like being visited by the Ghost of Propaganda Yet to Come...
mamakay is offline  
#132 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
mykdsmomy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: On the way to or from Starbucks
Posts: 3,384
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Like being visited by the Ghost of Propaganda Yet to Come...

Here's me I married then we had dd15 , dd11 , ds10 , and then and now we and I blog!
mykdsmomy is offline  
#133 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:24 PM
 
aira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: missing the Grandmother Lodge
Posts: 3,125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
:

Mamakay and LI!!
aira is offline  
#134 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:30 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
We don't have that vax yet here in the US for kids. (clinical trials are happening right now, though).
Reading that is like seeing into the future in a way. Weird. Like being visited by the Ghost of Propaganda Yet to Come...
How dare you insult my "data" like that

But really.... do you honestly consider this a legitimate way to present information to parents?

Is this really "data"?

And if its okay for pro-vaccine organisations to present this as a legitimate argument to get parents to vaccinate, exactly why criticise people who don't want to vaccinate, talking about their experiences in the same way? It seems to me, that the provaccine people have emotional blackmail absolutely down to a "fine art".

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#135 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 09:41 PM
 
bri276's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prettypixels
Given the cases of measles, rubella, polio and pertussis amongst the Amish, is the feeling there that the Amish only get them because *they* are unhealthy?
as a matter of fact, the Amish diet is far from ideal. just because a group is living a little more naturally than some of us doesn't make them perfect, or healthy.

DD1 7/13/05 DD2 9/20/10
bri276 is offline  
#136 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 10:07 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri276 View Post
as a matter of fact, the Amish diet is far from ideal. just because a group is living a little more naturally than some of us doesn't make them perfect, or healthy.

Too true. Even in 1993, I was shocked at the amount of sugar and white flour they consumed.

I wonder if it is better now, or worse?!

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#137 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 10:09 PM
 
Scattershoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Round Rock, TX
Posts: 876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Well, tetanus sucks so bad when it happens that I was thinking of it like death. But you're right. Tetanus doesn't always result in death. But it's sort of a "fate worse than death" kind of thing.

But anyway...
Is there an argument out there that the shot isn't preventing 40 cases of tetanus?
Other than MT's vax non-responders/natural immunity non-responders one? (which is really quite plausible, in a way, except for the CDC's statement that the few cases of tetanus happen in unvaccinated people...but they might just be making that up, like they like to do, too.)
My BIL had two horrific reactions to vaccines and I got them mixed up at one time, but found out it was the dt that caused him to get Bell's Palsy the day after the shot. Of course the doctor refused to call it an adverse event. Also, I had a lengthy conversation with a women who spent months in and out of the hospital (got down to less than 70 lbs) after a dt shot. Her story is certainly horrible.

That makes 4 people I personally know in my small, little world who had horrific reactions to the dt shot. Unless I'm just unbelievably unfortunate to be surrounded by a ridiculous percentage of dt damaged people, the dt vaccine is at least as horrific as the 40 (they claim) who suffer from tetanus a year. To say the number could be 80 is no different than saying it could be 200 or 2. We could speculate on what ifs forever. We could speculate that those injured by the dt shot is really 10,000 or 100,000 or 1 million or more. Look at just the symptoms I had after the shot. Earaches for the 1st x in my life. How many people suffer from earaches? Jaw pain for the 1st x in my life. How many suffer from jaw pain? A nasty skin condition. How many suffer from skin conditions? A weakened immune system that allowed viruses that I use to fight off no problem to put me out of commission. How many people have weak immune functioning? What about GBS? What about Bell's Palsy? The numbers could be monstrous.

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. - Oscar Wilde
Scattershoot is offline  
#138 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 10:57 PM
 
iamleabee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
ok lets see:

Quote:
I think around 2/3 of those who contracted it were vaxed (and who knows how many who didn't show symptoms).
of the most recent measles outbreak in US, 94% of cases were among unvaccinated individuals. 2 episodes of vaccine failure.

what do i think is good data? large sample size, over many years. anyone can make any case about their child, or their cousin etc. but what interests me is when people look at hundreds or thousands of cases over many years.

why am i unconvinced about anti-vax data? i have yet to see anything that resembles the above. please direct me to studies and i will read them. my mind is not closed. (mamakay...i am working through that article you posted).

why can a mother make an informed decision to vax: she can read the articles published in leading peer reviewed scientific journals presenting data she finds compelling.

i wrote that i found it discouraging that anti-vax sites are making the arguement that vaccines cause harm and then try to sell you things: buy this video! this book! etc. some people wrote back that the articles i posted are the same because drug companies make money selling vaccines. a--i don't think that's where drug companies make their money (except maybe very new vaccines like the hpv one) and b--this alludes to a big researcher/medical field/drug company/data manufacturing conspiracy to essentially make up millions of data points and poison the vast majority of children in the US for the last 6 decades. this allegation states that drug companies are paying university researchers to publish data in independent scientific journals extolling the virtue of vaccines that are essentially poisonous. maybe so (re: tobacco), but i remain unconvinced at this time.
iamleabee is offline  
#139 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 11:11 PM
 
HeyJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 46
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You really don't think money is an issue? Wow! : Without even bothering to calculate ... say 50% of kids in the US get their full vax schedule... the mere thought is a mindblowing amount of money. ETA: and the real numbers are so much higher... and then everything they sell here they market overseas as well...
HeyJoe is offline  
#140 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 11:14 PM
 
mammom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: oh!
Posts: 1,179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
ok lets see:

i wrote that i found it discouraging that anti-vax sites are making the arguement that vaccines cause harm and then try to sell you things: buy this video! this book! etc.
Not all of them do...

Quote:
a--i don't think that's where drug companies make their money (except maybe very new vaccines like the hpv one) and b--this alludes to a big researcher/medical field/drug company/data manufacturing conspiracy to essentially make up millions of data points and poison the vast majority of children in the US for the last 6 decades.
The hep b vax was the first BILLION dollar vaccine. And have you read the Simpsonwood meeting transcripts? They are available on the CDC web site: http://origin.cdc.gov/nip/news/simptrans072005.htm Looks slightly like a conspiracy to me... At least that aspect of it...
mammom is offline  
#141 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 11:19 PM
 
iamleabee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i think that is what mamakay posted...i am working my way through it.
iamleabee is offline  
#142 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 11:28 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
iamleabee,

Please could you quote back to the post, becuase your quote comes right out of left field out of cntext.... which 2/3rds of what? How? Where...

And were we talking about measles? Where? Is there a URL or ref to that?

In terms of "good data" ... if you call data this
Quote:
large sample size, over many years.
why did you use anecdote as an example of bad data?

Please get your terms right.

Since the Institute of Medicine, in its many books on the assessments of vaccine safety, admits that there are no large sample size studies over many years and says in their books that they were hampered by just such a lack of studies, why do you think that the provaccine people have got such studies with which to back a provaccine stand?

Why are you wanting people here to direct you to studies? Do you know how to do accurate medical research using pubmed, medline, and google yourself?

Quote:
i wrote that i found it discouraging that anti-vax sites are making the arguement that vaccines cause harm and then try to sell you things: buy this video! this book! etc. some people wrote back that the articles i posted are the same because drug companies make money selling vaccines. a--i don't think that's where drug companies make their money (except maybe very new vaccines like the hpv one) and b--this alludes to a big researcher/medical field/drug company/data manufacturing conspiracy to essentially make up millions of data points and poison the vast majority of children in the US for the last 6 decades. this allegation states that drug companies are paying university researchers to publish data in independent scientific journals extolling the virtue of vaccines that are essentially poisonous. maybe so (re: tobacco), but i remain unconvinced at this time.


I am having difficulty unravelling several seemingly unlinked thought-bites in the above words. Can you reword/translate/punctuate/gramaticise the above so that there is a coherent train of thought available please? Also, you have made some unsubstantiated allegations amongst them, so could you please give us some examples with URLs, so that we can understand what you are going on about?

Also, why are you assuming that these comments have anything to do with this board?

That is... if I've understood them correctly, which is a moot point.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#143 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 11:30 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
of the most recent measles outbreak in US, 94% of cases were among unvaccinated individuals. 2 episodes of vaccine failure.
Would you please post a link to what you said here. Because there were measles outbreaks and something like 85% of the kids were fully vaccinated.

Quote:
anyone can make any case about their child, or their cousin etc. but what interests me is when people look at hundreds or thousands of cases over many years.
Right. Where?
Where did you look for information like that?

Quote:
my mind is not closed. (mamakay...i am working through that article you posted).
That is very good.

Quote:
why can a mother make an informed decision to vax: she can read the articles published in leading peer reviewed scientific journals presenting data she finds compelling.
Why can a mother make an informed decision to not vax: she can read articles in peer reviewed scientific journals presenting data and finds them compelling.

What are we saying here anyway?

Quote:
i wrote that i found it discouraging that anti-vax sites are making the arguement that vaccines cause harm and then try to sell you things: buy this video! this book!
OK. No one twists your arm to buy anything. But pharmaceutical corporations are twisting arms of our representatives and not only twisting arms, they are buying them off left and right. Laws are being passed that protect the manufacturer AND force people to vaccinate.

Quote:
i don't think that's where drug companies make their money
Then you are very misinformed or don't want to know. More than any fortune 500 companies, vaccine/drug manufacturers are by far the richest conglomerate on this planet.


Quote:
this allegation states that drug companies are paying university researchers
Unfortunately most scientists are employed by pharmaceutical corporations. There are virtually no independent scientists. Everything is pretty much dictated. Universities get huge stipends and money for new buildings from the pharma corporations. Those things are not a conspiracy. They are not even secret. They are fact. Pharma is proud of all the money they give to universities. What the heck?

Quote:
vaccines that are essentially poisonous.
What would you call a concoction of mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, biphenol, antifreeze, antibiotics, monkey DNA, MSG, etc. etc.???

I call it poison. What exactly do you call it?
Gitti is offline  
#144 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 11:40 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
i think that is what mamakay posted...i am working my way through it.
Mamakay did not give you the URL to simpsonwood/mercury.

She gave you the URL to FDA/contaminants here:

http://www.fda.gov/cber/minutes/0910evolv.txt

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#145 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 11:47 PM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post



i wrote that i found it discouraging that anti-vax sites are making the arguement that vaccines cause harm and then try to sell you things: buy this video! this book! etc. some people wrote back that the articles i posted are the same because drug companies make money selling vaccines. a--i don't think that's where drug companies make their money (except maybe very new vaccines like the hpv one) and b--this alludes to a big researcher/medical field/drug company/data manufacturing conspiracy to essentially make up millions of data points and poison the vast majority of children in the US for the last 6 decades. this allegation states that drug companies are paying university researchers to publish data in independent scientific journals extolling the virtue of vaccines that are essentially poisonous. maybe so (re: tobacco), but i remain unconvinced at this time.
Just so you know, I don't think it's a conspiracy to poison children or anything like that. I do think the manufacturers fudge some of the data in the clinical trials to make their products look slightly more effective than they are a lot of times.
And some of the research is a little off after that because docs are prone to misdiagnose VPDs in vaccinated kids. But most of the vaccines do "work", too, to some extent. Flushots are almost completely ineffective, and the pertussis vaccine seems to be about 50/50, maybe, but most of the rest work fairly well.
The data that's totally wrong, IMO, is the cherry-picked data to make all the diseases look more scary than they are.
It gives the impression that society would just fall apart if the manufacturers were to stop making the vaccines, and it just isn't true.
If you look at places like Germany...yeah, they have measles and mumps etc., but it's just not that big of a deal.

Regarding vaccine risks, we do know for a fact that they've "covered up" viral contaminants. So right off the bat, we know that is how they have been known to operate. (whoever "they" are.)
I do think the diagnostic change is responsible for a lot of the "autism epidemic", too. It has to be.
But at the same time, the MMR and thimerosal research hasn't ever been "debunked", either. And I can totally see people at the CDC wanting it to just "go away", because if every parent of every kid diagnosed with "autism" could sue Merck, the CDC might think it would create a public health disaster when Merck withdrew from the market.
So they probably think protecting manufacturers actually protects public health.
The group who originally got the simpsonwood transcript through the FOIA also got emails that were going around the CDC at that time, and it's bad. Some of those guys totally believed thimerosal actually had caused speech delays and tics. There's just no doubt about that.
And they also asked the IOM to "prove" thimerosal and the MMR were "safe on a population level"...which means "Look at epidemiology, not the biology".
Because the biology would say something that might open the manufacturers up to lawsuites, IMO.
mamakay is offline  
#146 of 433 Old 12-27-2006, 11:57 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
None of these studies conform to your stated ideal of large numbers over many years.

All have major scientific flaws in both premise, confoundings, and other variables, which have been discussed in many places, by many doctors, many times.

If you have read the IOM books on the topic, why would you "like" these studies below?


Quote:
Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
here is one study i like:

URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15364187

short quote from link: "Controls were matched on age, sex, and general practice. FINDINGS: 1294 cases and 4469 controls were included. 1010 cases (78.1%) had MMR vaccination recorded before diagnosis, compared with 3671 controls (82.1%) before the age at which their matched case was diagnosed. After adjustment for age at joining the database, the odds ratio for association between MMR and pervasive developmental disorder was 0.86 (95% CI 0.68-1.09). Findings were similar when restricted to children with a diagnosis of autism, to those vaccinated with MMR before the third birthday, or to the period before media coverage of the hypothesis linking MMR with autism. INTERPRETATION: Our findings suggest that MMR vaccination is not associated with an increased risk of pervasive developmental disorders."
First major flaw. The numbers are too low. When it comes to rare events in order to even pick up a 5% excess you would have to have somewhere between 50 - 100,000 study participants... also... There was no totally unvaccinated group. You don't compare vaccinated with vaccinated, and expect to get something which would show you what would have happened had these children not had any vaccines at all.

In order to understand confoundings, the Cochrane review comments on the quality of the majority of studies might be of some help:

html text:

http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.co...407/frame.html

pdf


http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.co...07/pdf_fs.html

Quote:
article from:
Pediatrics. 2006 Jul;118(1):e139-50.

short quote:"A statistically significant linear increase in pervasive developmental disorder prevalence was noted during the study period. The prevalence of pervasive developmental disorder in thimerosal-free birth cohorts was significantly higher than that in thimerosal-exposed cohorts (82.7 of 10000 vs 59.5 of 10000). Using logistic regression models of the prevalence data, we found no significant effect of thimerosal exposure used either as a continuous or a categorical variable. Thus, thimerosal exposure was unrelated to the increasing trend in pervasive developmental disorder prevalence. These results were robust when additional analyses were performed to address possible limitations because of the ecological nature of the data and to evaluate potential effects of misclassification on exposure or diagnosis"
You aren't HONESTLY telling us, that you think Fombonne's study is worth squat are you?

Why?

Can you not see the errors in this, let alone the fact that the man did not state the most obvious conflict of interest that all here will know? That he was funded by thiomersal manufacturers?

A detailed scientific review of this article has been done elsewhere, so I see no need to rehash it, but if you honestly think accepting what medical journals publish uncritically, is a way to make a decision then fine.

Quote:
a retraction from 10 of the 12 authors of the original mmr-autism article based on 12 children in the UK:
What original MMR-autism article? There was NEVER a 1998 MMR-autism article. I have the original article and it never mentioned MMR-autism.


Quote:
"We wish to make it clear that in [the 1998] paper no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient. However, the possibility of such a link was raised and consequent events have had major implications for public health. In view of this, we consider now is the appropriate time that we should together formally retract the interpretation placed upon [the] findings in the (1998) paper, according to precedent."
from Retraction of an Interpretation by Simon H Murch, Andrew Anthony, David H Casson, Mohsin Malik, Mark Berelowitz, Amar P Dhillon, Michael A Thomson, Alan Valentine, Susan E Davies, John A Walker-Smith (10 of the original 12 authors; John Linnell could not be reached)"
Think about this. The article never mentioned MMR-autism. It pointed out that measles virus had been found in the gut of 12 children and I think from memory called it some form of enterocolitis or something....

The possibility of a link was raised by WHOM primarily? Wakefield asked the question as to why/how the virus was there.

and who made the interpretation? And think about this. Why was this retraction made? By whom, how many years later, and for what purpose? Why did Wakefield lose his job? Have you looked at the peripheral events around this, and then the Lancet debacle not long ago?

I think that the whole deal about this article and subsequent events will come out in the wash with the GMC, when Wakefield takes the stand in a short while, and I really hope the media cover it accurately and fully.

And I'm really looking forward to reading the book written by his wife, who is a doctor and who once worked with the GMC. I just hopes she holds off until after the GMC hearing, which I hear is slotted for 12 weeks, so I don't expect it to be short. But I hope a lot of people will be eating their hats after it.

but somehow doubt it.

Quote:
overall: i think people who chose to immunize their children are not unthinking, and have considered reasons for their decisions, just as those who chose to decline vaxes are not unthinking and have considered reasons for their decisions.
I disagree. Just in the quality of what you have put here, both in your expression and in what you consider to be "good data" and your "proof" so far, I would have to suggest that your reasons are not yet well considered, and neither are your research methods (and results) adequate in terms of providing sufficient framework upon which to make an informed choice.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#147 of 433 Old 12-28-2006, 12:21 AM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseMomme View Post
Oh ok...iamleabee is making the point that mercola was trying to make money off an anti-vax video, I understand now.
You mean, Mercola was suggesting someone go to another website and buy a video made by someone else, who makes a living off talking about vaccines.

Aka Sherry Tenpenny?

So its okay for all the doctors who are paid to make a living off persuading people to get vaccinated to do that, and to "sell" you vaccines (your taxes are the same as your pocket), but its not okay for people who have made a video to sell it.

My husband and I wrote a book this year about vaccines.

Now, we realise that there are some people who think that anyone who writes something controversial and tries to make money off it are probably scum, but lets do some sums shall we.

We wrote this book, in order to give parents tools to "think" more efficiently about the issue of vaccination.

It cost us $103,000 in order to do all the setting, design, cover, edits printing of 5,000 copies, okay?

Given the amounts required to post the books everywhere, total end costs will be around $250.000, okay?

Now, its all very well for provaccine people like Dr Offit to do these things for a big fat writing commission fee, and then get pharma/publisher funding, and absolutely NOTHING comes out of their pockets. You appear to have no conscience about him, or any other provaccine author making money out of books etc....

Like this guy, Arthur Allen:

http://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-Contro...e=UTF8&s=books

Is it okay to pay money for this book?

Other provaccine books which sell on Amazon... do you object to them as well?

But this $250,000 which we are spending, isn't coming out of phama pockets.

WE decided to take the "altruistic" path and make the book available for free, which means everytime someone asks for the book it costs us $50.00 to get it to the USA.

But the reality is if we are to do another book, the money has to come from somewhere. So could you please tell me where you think that money should come from this time?

Had I decided to sell it through Amazon, would that have been acceptable to you ? Do you expect Sherry Tenpenny to give the DVDs away for nothing?

A few people who have asked for the book have decided that a worker is worthy of recompense, and have donated back money to the Trust we set up. Donations are running at 13% so far. Now, you do the maths. Will that cover the costs?

Whose the mug here. I can tell you in one word.

Me.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#148 of 433 Old 12-28-2006, 12:30 AM
 
iamleabee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
the 94% referrs to an article i posted on page 4 of this thread, url here:
*found this interesting, the URL to the complete article is:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/5/447

hope that clears up the confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
I disagree. Just in the quality of what you have put here, both in your expression and in what you consider to be "good data" and your "proof" so far, I would have to suggest that your reasons are not yet well considered, and neither are your research methods (and results) adequate in terms of providing sufficient framework upon which to make an informed choice.
oh. my. : and that was the edited reply! yikes!
iamleabee is offline  
#149 of 433 Old 12-28-2006, 12:40 AM
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
the 94% referrs to an article i posted on page 4 of this thread, url here:
*found this interesting, the URL to the complete article is:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/5/447
Now, I am confused.
Quote:
14 (41 percent) had laboratory-confirmed measles and 20 (59 percent) were epidemiologically linked to a laboratory-confirmed case.
That is only 34 people!!!! Not your thousands that you said you wanted in order to say the studies were true.
~member~ is offline  
#150 of 433 Old 12-28-2006, 12:42 AM
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post

what do i think is good data? large sample size, over many years. anyone can make any case about their child, or their cousin etc. but what interests me is when people look at hundreds or thousands of cases over many years.
And, yet, the article you linked is only 34 people.
Quote:
from May 2 to July 8, 2005
Which is not even a year!
~member~ is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off