What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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#181 of 433 Old 12-29-2006, 05:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mykdsmomy View Post
Can't it be against your personal religion (atheist) to give your child vaccines though? I mean does it have to be written in church doctrine somewhere?
I'm atheist and signed a religious exemption with no problem.

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#182 of 433 Old 12-29-2006, 05:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mykdsmomy View Post
Can't it be against your personal religion (atheist) to give your child vaccines though? I mean does it have to be written in church doctrine somewhere?
We have the "sincere" and "bona fide" language here. I know in NY they pretty much want you to specifically mention god, and if they sense even a hint of a "scientific issue", your exemption is denied, but I don't know about here. (Tennessee).
I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
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#183 of 433 Old 12-29-2006, 05:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mykdsmomy View Post
Can't it be against your personal religion (atheist) to give your child vaccines though?
Yes, it can.


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I mean does it have to be written in church doctrine somewhere?
No, it does not.
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#184 of 433 Old 12-29-2006, 07:24 PM
 
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These are bioethicists who are implementing plans to do nifty stuff like vaccinating middle school kids with the HPV vaccine at school for the sole purpose of "overcoming" the "parental consent" barrier to care.
What else can we expect from a group of psychopaths. I do not use that term lightly either. Here is the American Heritage definition of psychopath.

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A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.
For these psychopaths, parents are simply in the way. When a child suffers a horrific reaction or dies from their vaccines, they make that child a statistic, create some risk/benefit fantasy or try everything they can to deny the death was from their poisons. Is it or is it not amoral and criminal to destroy health and kill.

We now have cameras in school bathrooms without parental consent (is it or is it not perverted to watch children use the restroom), CPS side by side with police officers going to schools without parental consent and interviewing children (is that not aggressive) and soon psychological exams will be taking place.

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#185 of 433 Old 12-29-2006, 07:51 PM
 
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#186 of 433 Old 12-29-2006, 08:00 PM
 
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As some who vaxed my two oldest I have to say it is lack of easily found info against vaxing.I had no idea that you couldn't vax, that there were even side effects other then at the site of the injection. I am not even sure what made me even begin to question all of it in the first place. But I did.
Here is what I thought about... 1.) when are you ever exposed to that many diseases at once, EVER? Maybe if you are in a refugee camp with no water in a war zone might you come in contact with all of the diseases they vax for at once. It isn't that you may come into them at some point in your life, but what 2 month old is around all those things at once, ever? And if we are to keep our babies safe from germs and have people wash up and we are to spray them with Lysol (JK) to keep them safe, why is it ok to pump them full of toxins and dead germs over and over again? And why if the vaxes work do you need to have them so many of them over and over? I mean most people who get mumps (lets say) get it once and that is it.
I guess a major turning point was when I had decided to selectively vax my ds#2 and on a drawn out schedule and I went to the county helath department and when I told them what he was to get they told me (I kid you not) That "This is going on your perment record" What record would that be? And talk about a scare tatic. Why do that? Plus have you seen the paper about vax reactions? It is long and small print and that is IF you get something more then what the Ped hands out.
I hope that I haven't don't long term damage to my two kids who have been vaxed. I can look back and see that it is possible that some of my DD's health problems as an infant and small chuild could very well have been vax related. Chronic ear infections, skin rashes, upper resp illnesses often. Thankfully this isn't a problem any more, but it was an issue after every vax. Only now as I have learned more can I look back and see how it was connected. :

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#187 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 03:47 PM
 
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I completely vaxed my first two kids, and I did it because I believed the doctors when they told me "the benefits far outweigh the risks." I never researched the ingredients or any of the possible effects. Now my daughter has some serious food allergies and other sensitivities, and I started thinking, and doing some research. She will not get any more vaccines, and I am starting to think that they are the cause of her problems. There are too many things wrong with the pro-vax argument IMO.
The problem with questioning vaccines is that you have to come out of the comfortable bubble you have been living in. It feels warm and safe in there to just trust everything the doctor says. You start to question other things as well. Who can you trust? But IMO it is better to live this way, to question everything and get the answers you need to make the decision that feels right in your heart. Even if it is hard to do. Even if everyone around you will think you are crazy.

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#188 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 04:13 PM
 
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The problem with questioning vaccines is that you have to come out of the comfortable bubble you have been living in. It feels warm and safe in there to just trust everything the doctor says. You start to question other things as well. Who can you trust?
Yes. There have been times when DD was sick that I wished I had that kind of blind faith in the medical system that so many people do, so that I could just take her in and get some drugs and feel like I was doing something. Knowing better than that, well, it keeps her healthier in the long run and has prevented her from getting rounds of unnecessary abx that I'm positive would have been prescribed if I'd taken her in for different things, but which she clearly never needed since she's always recovered within a few days without them. OTOH, if I had some sort of faith in docs and their judgement, it would be such a relief to feel like I was doing something if I could take her in and get meds.

Don't get me wrong - she eats healthy, she nurses and we supplement when/what appropriate, so I am doing something for her, but sometimes I still feel so helpless. And the thing is, since I know doctors often have no idea what they're doing when it comes to sick kids, I wouldn't feel any less helpless if I did take her in, because I'd know they were probably doing something useless at best and harmful at worst. I've crossed some kind of threshold and I can't return. It isn't that I think doctors are never necessary - they certainly have their place - but that place just doesn't happen to be in the treatment of run-of-the-mill coughs, colds, rashes and childhood illnesses. They're good for serious illnesses.
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#189 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 04:25 PM
 
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Right on, Plummeting...

I now feel that seeing an MD is putting us into a totally out-of-control situation. Long ago, it was like getting a fix of being a child where "the parent" would make everything better and I'd be safe without any responsibility, but then always being let down in the end...
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#190 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by paisleypoet View Post
The problem with questioning vaccines is that you have to come out of the comfortable bubble you have been living in. It feels warm and safe in there to just trust everything the doctor says.
This really hits the nail on the head for me. I was also thinking this morning that there are some really intelligent people/parents out there for whatever reason just DONT want to hear it. It's like you try to bring up the idea of questioning the dr and they either look at you like you're an alien or they get the look in their eyes that's reminiscent of a child putting their fingers in their ears and going "la la la la, i cant hear you".

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#191 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 04:42 PM
 
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Very true. My SIL whom I love dearly, will not hear of it. She just looks at me smiles and takes her dd to get vaxed. Shge told me it was to get her into school, but I informed her our state has all the exemps. She didn't care. Even when her dd stopped nursing for 2 days as a 6 month old, she didn't stop to question what was going on, she took her for the next round and the next, with the same reaction. And she is a great mama, but she will not even think to question her doctor about this one thing. She is AP all the way, organic diet, won't give her dd unnessary meds, etc, but that one thing... :

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#192 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 05:57 PM
 
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The problem with questioning vaccines is that you have to come out of the comfortable bubble you have been living in. It feels warm and safe in there to just trust everything the doctor says. You start to question other things as well. Who can you trust? But IMO it is better to live this way, to question everything and get the answers you need to make the decision that feels right in your heart. Even if it is hard to do. Even if everyone around you will think you are crazy.
I wonder if that's why all this was sooooo easy for me. I haven't trusted anyone in the medical profession since I was 6 and was sexually abused by a Pedi Urologist....I NEVER trusted a one of 'em again....not even my much loved midwives and Chiro..I still research and question EVERYTHING they say. I'll actually look out the window if they say, "isn't it a lovely day out?"

I read the threads here and read about people struggling with this decision...I think to myself..."easy...just stop"...I have trouble understanding why it's so hard to make this decision...maybe I should have been asking why it was so easy for me.

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#193 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 06:38 PM
 
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You know, Fyrestorm, it's always been easy for me to trust myself over doctors when it comes to my own health. I had no problem refusing what I considered excessive/unnecessary treatment of dysplasia when I was only 21. (I was right - it cleared up on its own.) I also had no problem refusing abx for pneumonia when I was 22.

It's just that when it's your children, it would be so much easier to trust someone else to have the answers. It would be easier to abdicate responsility, you know? For someone with your experience, I think it would obviously be completely different, but for the average person who hasn't had a traumatic experience, it's a lot different, kwim?
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#194 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 08:08 PM
 
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Just wanted to chime in that I am having a hard time deciding about vax and here is why-no flames please. I completely distrust our government, medical establishment, the phramaceudical co., and the FDA. I 100% believe that they distort facts and infor. The problem that I run into is that I am not a scientist or a researcher so when I read stats from a non-vax source I am as skeptical of that info as any other. Not because I think it is false but because I don't know how to really evaluate the legitamcy of any of the information. So when I try to talk to or read info from experts on either side I end up more confused. I know that there are many of you whose children who have been harmed by vax and I also know that there are children who have gotten VPD's and been harmed so from an emotional stand point it is just as hard to know what to do. For me, the more research I do the more confused I feel. I truely want to do the right thing but it really is hard from to discern the fact from the fiction in either argument. I also think that as parents we all look for things that validate the decisions we have made. Therefore if you choose to vax your children you are probably more likely to believe information that tells you that was the correct decision and visa-versa. Instinctively I feel that I do want to vax but both decisions feel very scary to me. It isn't because I don't want to be different or because I can't "take the heat" I will inevitably get for no-vaxing it is because some of the diseases actually do pose a threat and I live in an area where those diseases have actually shown up recently (ie. pertusis) and I just want to do the best thing possible.
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#195 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 08:19 PM
 
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Just wanted to chime in that I am having a hard time deciding about vax and here is why-no flames please. I completely distrust our government, medical establishment, the phramaceudical co., and the FDA. I 100% believe that they distort facts and infor. The problem that I run into is that I am not a scientist or a researcher so when I read stats from a non-vax source I am as skeptical of that info as any other. Not because I think it is false but because I don't know how to really evaluate the legitamcy of any of the information. So when I try to talk to or read info from experts on either side I end up more confused. I know that there are many of you whose children who have been harmed by vax and I also know that there are children who have gotten VPD's and been harmed so from an emotional stand point it is just as hard to know what to do. For me, the more research I do the more confused I feel. I truely want to do the right thing but it really is hard from to discern the fact from the fiction in either argument. I also think that as parents we all look for things that validate the decisions we have made. Therefore if you choose to vax your children you are probably more likely to believe information that tells you that was the correct decision and visa-versa. Instinctively I feel that I do want to vax but both decisions feel very scary to me. It isn't because I don't want to be different or because I can't "take the heat" I will inevitably get for no-vaxing it is because some of the diseases actually do pose a threat and I live in an area where those diseases have actually shown up recently (ie. pertusis) and I just want to do the best thing possible.
A good way to start is to fact check one thing.
For example, who told you that pertussis has shown up in your area recently?
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#196 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 09:04 PM
 
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I read the threads here and read about people struggling with this decision...I think to myself..."easy...just stop"...I have trouble understanding why it's so hard to make this decision...maybe I should have been asking why it was so easy for me.
I struggled a tiny bit with our decision, but really - just a tiny bit and only with one or two of the illnesses (polio and tetanus, as they are the sticking points for many on this journey). Now I am in your shoes - can't see how it can be such a struggle. I see the anti-vax information that is easily available and it ALL makes sense to me.

I can certainly understand how people could get "stuck" on one or two of the illnesses, but MOST OF THEM ARE BENIGN in even relatively healthy children!! Of course there are the exceptions, but, and I don't have data here to back up my belief, but I believe the numbers of HEALTHY children having problems with an illness are far fewer than the numbers of children damaged by vaccines.
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#197 of 433 Old 12-30-2006, 09:20 PM
 
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I can certainly understand how people could get "stuck" on one or two of the illnesses, but MOST OF THEM ARE BENIGN in even relatively healthy children!! Of course there are the exceptions, but, and I don't have data here to back up my belief, but I believe the numbers of HEALTHY children having problems with an illness are far fewer than the numbers of children damaged by vaccines.
Very interesting point. There are a lot of very unhealthy children around now, although the infant mortality rate has improved a bit since the 1950s, when I was a child. For example, in my entire childhood, I can't remember ever hearing of an infant or child with an ear infection. Weird. In fact, when my daughter was a baby in the late 60s I don't recall hearing anyone talking about ear infections and I did hang out with other moms and infants occasionally. So what gives?

Asthma
severe, life threatening allergies
ADHD
autism
cancer in children
immune system problems
ear infections

The problem would be demonstrating that the heavy load of vaccines is THE factor that is causing most or some of the increase in chronic illness and behavioral stuff.
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#198 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 01:08 AM
 
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In 1993, when I was in America, there was a ghastly TV advertisement running, which had lots of children running in a playground, laughing and playing in the sun, and then they disappeared, it was black clouds, leaves, dark sky and the text said something like "If you don't vaccinate your children there will be no next generation."

I just couldn't believe it; and the ad was sponsorred by a medical association.

I often wondered just how many people believed that, and if they did, how they thought all their ancestors got to have children.

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#199 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 01:17 AM
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I often wondered just how many people believed that, and if they did, how they thought all their ancestors got to have children.
Things like that are still running on TV, you just don't watch anymore .

As for the ancestors, there is a current 'explanation' that sounds like the following: 'we are a vaccine-dependent generation. Because we were massively vaccinating for some deadly diseases for a couple generations, we do not have any other immunity than the vaccine-induced one. Unlike our ancestors, we can't rely on the natural immunity of those who survived the disease. There is no chance of surviving if we stop vaccinating'. There you have it - good news and bad news for the price of one :
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#200 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 02:27 AM
 
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I ususally hear that in past generations everyone was crippled, lost 15 babies each, and couldn't hear b/c of measles...

OK, I'm exaggerating, but only a little.


Isn't life better now...?? Can't even bring peanut butter sandwiches to schools because it will kill somebody.
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#201 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 04:38 AM
 
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I haven't read any other replies and probably won't get around to coming back (I always forget) but I think my biggest issue with it all is that I DON'T WANT my son to catch any of these diseases. It seems all anti-vaxers want their kids to catch them and gain lifetime immunity. I don't want him to catch them OR be vaccinated. Since that's not likely a possibility, I plan on delaying vaccines. Right now, I do not think he will get any before 2, but then I'll slowly give him some I find to be "needed." Some I am 99% sure I won't give him are the Pertussis (not sure about the D & T parts though), Flu, Prevnar, Hib.... I'm still researching on Hib especially though. *shrug*

imo, when it comes to your own child it's a lot harder to make a decision. Do I want my child injected with the things in vaccines? No! Do I want him to suffer any ill effects that I believe vaccines can cause? No! Do I want him to catch Rubella and become sterile? No! Do I want him to suffer with the whooping cough? No! It's ALL scary to me. Vaxing and not vaxing.

Either way I'm trying to make the best educated decision for my son. Right now, it's not giving him ANY vaccinations. Later he may receive some, I don't know yet. That's why I never stop researching.

ETA: I really just think it's a crapshoot either way. A child that might be biologically programmed to be able to survive the diseases could die/become injured from vaccines. But a child who is programmed to be able to handle the vaccines without any issues may be hurt or die from a disease. No one can know which their child is.

All the anti-vaxers I come across talk about how horrible it is that children die from vaccines, and I agree. But I find it equally as terrible that children are dying from these diseases.
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#202 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 05:06 AM
 
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Do I want him to catch Rubella and become sterile? No!
Rubella doesn't cause sterility. That's mumps you're thinking of and it's extremely, extremely rare. Mumps orchitis almost never causes sterility, but in the rare instance that it does, it's almost always confined to one testicle, meaning the man isn't actually sterile, because he still has another fully functional testicle producing more sperm than he will ever need. Mumps-induced sterility is so rare that the CDC doesn't even have ANY numbers on how likely/common it is. THAT is RARE.

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All the anti-vaxers I come across talk about how horrible it is that children die from vaccines, and I agree. But I find it equally as terrible that children are dying from these diseases.
Yes, children in Africa, who don't have enough food and can't get clean water, some of whom are infected with AIDS or malaria at the same time that they catch measles. Healthy American kids who aren't on steroids don't just drop dead from chickenpox or measles. It is terrible no matter why a child dies. The difference is that people who don't vax have learned enough to know that their child is more likely to be killed by falling out of bed than by tetanus or chickenpox.
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#203 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 06:18 AM
 
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I haven't quite made it through reading the entire thread but I did want to give the opinion of my doc back in the states. I really liked him and he was very supportive of my decision not to vax my children, however he did want to discuss the reasons he decided to vax his. What he told me was that in the area where we lived there were a lot of tourists. Although he didn't think his children would get the VPDs normally, he was worried about them taking the train and sitting next to someone from XYZ and catching it from them. He then went on to tell me that it is a risk/benefit analysis. There are risks to the vaxes and risks to the diseases. He said he could not live with himself if one of his children died from a VPD, however he said truthfully he was concerned about the vaxes as well, but thought that the risk of dying from a VPD was more than dying from a vax.

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#204 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 06:22 AM
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What he told me was that in the area where we lived there were a lot of tourists.
What tourists do you know that are allowed into the USA without being vaccinated? :
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#205 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 07:14 AM
 
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I haven't quite made it through reading the entire thread but I did want to give the opinion of my doc back in the states. I really liked him and he was very supportive of my decision not to vax my children, however he did want to discuss the reasons he decided to vax his. What he told me was that in the area where we lived there were a lot of tourists. Although he didn't think his children would get the VPDs normally, he was worried about them taking the train and sitting next to someone from XYZ and catching it from them.
You mean, these perfectly healthy tourists travelling happily on buses are alive and running, and have diseases that will kill your doctors children?

Are his kids that bad, that things that don't even bother tourists will kill his kids?

What a lousy advert for his omnipotent power as a parent of a supposedly healthy child.


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#206 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 12:21 PM
 
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I see several hurdles.

First, if illness is always seen as something bad and to be avoided, then why not avoid it? The fact that illnesses in childhood actually accomplish something positive is so contrary to the received wisdom of our time that most people cannot possibly wrap their minds around it.

.

i find this itself is one of the biggest problem with parents today. They are so afraid of their kids being sick..... its normal, its good and its healthy to get sick as a child and build up immunity. This is so frusterating. I am so constantly trying to get through peoples skulls that illness (and fever) is NORMAL for children. arrrrhg!!!

I agree it is one of hte biggest driving factors in parents that vaccinate. They are afraid of illness. Have no tools for treating illness, no resources for treating illness in their home and feeling confident about it.
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#207 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 12:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by angela&avery View Post
i find this itself is one of the biggest problem with parents today. They are so afraid of their kids being sick..... its normal, its good and its healthy to get sick as a child and build up immunity. This is so frusterating. I am so constantly trying to get through peoples skulls that illness (and fever) is NORMAL for children. arrrrhg!!!

I agree it is one of hte biggest driving factors in parents that vaccinate. They are afraid of illness. Have no tools for treating illness, no resources for treating illness in their home and feeling confident about it.
There also seems to be a strong belief that illness is something that just happens to you. I have a friend whose family has been sick 5 times this year...for a week each time! To me that is outrageous! They vax, medicate for everything, and live on processed foods. They had honestly not even heard of certain local vegetables that I eat regularly! They view getting sick like rolling the dice. So, yeah, if there is something out there (vaxes) that are said to prevent illness then it is miraculous to them. Why would anyone not want to do that?!
For some reason my friend has never put it together that I and my family are never sick, yet hers are. We eat healthfully, they eat crap. She just doesn't seem to think like that.
The bottom line seems to be that people want to live their lives as comfortably as possible...meaning they don't want to have to give up anything for their health... especially if a doctor can just fix whatever problems my arise with a pill or shot. Drinking water, or eating more veggies, exercising are all too much work for something medicine has solved in their minds.
Modern medicine is all about trying to overcome nature so that people can live how they want without consequences. Of course that can never happen, but alot of people think it has happened.
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#208 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 02:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by angela&avery View Post
i find this itself is one of the biggest problem with parents today. They are so afraid of their kids being sick..... its normal, its good and its healthy to get sick as a child and build up immunity. This is so frusterating. I am so constantly trying to get through peoples skulls that illness (and fever) is NORMAL for children. arrrrhg!!!

I agree it is one of hte biggest driving factors in parents that vaccinate. They are afraid of illness. Have no tools for treating illness, no resources for treating illness in their home and feeling confident about it.
I totally agree. And it's funny (or maybe not) - the fear has made its way into every aspect of parenting. I just got a catalog in the mail the other day from One Step Ahead or something like that and it was their "SAFETY ISSUE." They have every kind of "baby-proofing" device for your home (padding for corners, locks for every thing in the house, etc.), leashes for travelling and location devices in case your child is lost, etc., etc. I am sure some of these are very handy sometimes, BUT, the fear of ANYTHING, even a slight knock on the head from bumping into the corner of the counter, seems to be pervasive. People don't want anything "bad" to happen to their children - even if it could be a learning experience in the end.

I hope what I am saying makes sense - of course I don't want anything truly bad to happen to my own son! But life happens. We can't lock our kids in padded cells and let them out when they are adults. You know?
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#209 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 03:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies View Post
What tourists do you know that are allowed into the USA without being vaccinated? :
Just wanted to point out, I don't live in the US, nor am I a citizen of the US, but I have been there, many times, and I have *never* been asked to show a vaccination record.
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#210 of 433 Old 01-01-2007, 03:12 PM
 
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I ususally hear that in past generations everyone was crippled, lost 15 babies each, and couldn't hear b/c of measles...

OK, I'm exaggerating, but only a little.

It breaks my heart when the anti-vax faction jokes around like this. Have you ever talked to someone who grew up in the 30's or 40's when these diseases were still around? Better yet, have you ever talked to an elderly woman who raised children during the days before the vaccination program started? They would shame you for the way you talk about these VPDs. Many many tears were shed over children who contracted and died from VPDs, tears that parents nowadays do not have to shed because our children are all protected by vaccines and herd immunity. My mother, who was born in 1947, told me how she and her brothers were not allowed to go to public events because they might get polio. In her small school alone there were 5 or 6 children who had leg braces from polio paralysis. And let's not attribute it to poor nutrition and sanitation because back then people ate a heck of a lot better than we do now. I wish everyone who is against vaccination and doesn't believe in the efficacy of vaccines would spend some time with a mother in her 70's or 80's if you want to hear what life was like for mothers and children before vaccines.

Anti vaxers can laugh all they want about 15 babies dying and people being crippled but back then you should have seen the lines for the polio vaccines when they became available.
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