Ok, flex your anti-vax muscle at me....please. - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 85 Old 09-14-2008, 06:54 PM
 
suschi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the midst
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri View Post
That's disgusting! I read somewhere too, something about how they market it with the cancer thing, but they know they're making bogus claims (or something like that). It's off topic, but why is this allowed to happen? If it's not necessary, and the risks outweigh the benefits, why it it permitted?
Because it's generating a lot of $$$$$$$ for certain people
suschi is offline  
#62 of 85 Old 09-15-2008, 02:51 PM
 
GutInstinct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I also highly recommend The Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears! It's a good resource to thumb through as you research each disease. It lists the ingredients in each vaccine as well.

Also, I very much recommend Louder Than Words by Jenny McCarthy. GREAT READ!!!
GutInstinct is offline  
#63 of 85 Old 09-15-2008, 03:04 PM
 
honeybunch2k8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 933
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Eewwww@at those ingredients!
honeybunch2k8 is offline  
#64 of 85 Old 12-03-2008, 02:40 AM
 
majazama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: mountains of bc
Posts: 4,664
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
so, did you vaccinate?
majazama is offline  
#65 of 85 Old 12-03-2008, 04:06 AM
 
gromero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: So. CA
Posts: 172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
:: :

to nummies.....thank you thank you thank you. I am not vaxing, and have done my research and I know why we are not vaxing, but explaing it to people our reasons, well, I always fumble over my words. You have put it easy peasy to read sections that I can pass onto my family and friends (even those that are on the fence about vaxing!!)

So thank you!!
gromero is offline  
#66 of 85 Old 12-04-2008, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
Blu Razzberri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,743
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by majazama View Post
so, did you vaccinate?
Not yet. Don't have enough pro-vax information on it yet, and so I'm following Angela's advice and defaulting to no-vax. I'm not being met with much resistance from my doctor either. We've had a bit of discussion, but he's definitely pro-selective-vax at the very least.

WARNING: The comments and opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the community in which I reside; or those of the internet parenting network.
Blu Razzberri is offline  
#67 of 85 Old 12-04-2008, 10:53 AM
 
nummies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: in a state of love
Posts: 3,257
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gromero View Post
:: :

to nummies.....thank you thank you thank you. I am not vaxing, and have done my research and I know why we are not vaxing, but explaing it to people our reasons, well, I always fumble over my words. You have put it easy peasy to read sections that I can pass onto my family and friends (even those that are on the fence about vaxing!!)

So thank you!!
You're so welcome!! Glad that it helped you.

I also wanted to add the flu vaccine here. I realized that I never talked about this one.

What is the flu? The flu is short for influenza. It is a virus that affects the US every fall/ winter. There are MANY different strains of the flu virus. It is transmitted like the common cold. Symptoms include: fever, body aches, sore throat, nasal congestion, etc. The flu is really NOT considered serious in a normal, healthy, child or adult. The flu is treatable with antiviral medications although many just choose to let the disease run its course.

What are the odds of catching the flu? The flu is fairly common. Millions of cases each year all caused by DIFFERENT strains of the virus. Every year someone will say "This is supposed to be the worse year EVER for the flu." And every year is about the same.

What is the recommended schedule for the flu vaccine? Yearly after the age of 6 months. Hell, you can't even go to the supermarket without seeing ads saying "Get your flu shot!"

What are the ingredients in the flu vaccine? This gets really complicated. But there are two main different types of the flu vaccine. One is the killed virus in an injection form and one is a live virus in a nasal spray form. Anyway, each year "they" decide which strains of the virus to use in the vaccine (and every year "they" are wrong). Ingredients in the injection form (different brands) are: The virus itself, mercury, egg proteins, formaldehyde, etc. The ingredients in the spray form are: the live virus, MSG, etc.

What are the reported adverse reactions to the flu vaccine? The standard plus the actual flu (in the live version, "they" say that is impossible to get the flu from the injection form). The only year that I got the flu vaccine was the only year that I have had the flu. Go figure. It think that it has something to do with the fact that the injection decreases your immune system making it more likely that you will get the flu from another source. Anyway, Gillian barre (paralyzing condition), brain swelling, facial and arm paralysis, visual problems can occur with the flu shot. A friend's grandpa was paralyzed for life after the flu shot.

Why I don't get the vaccine for my child. For one, the flu isn't really considered serious. Nathan isn't immunocomprimised. In addition, what is the point of getting the vaccine if you are going to get the flu from it? This makes no sense to me. The chemicals in the injection scare me. The list of adverse reactions scare me. I would rather him have the flu. Not to mention that just last year, "they" picked the WRONG strains of the virus to use. So the shot was basically worthless.

Three boys.  jumpers.gif
nummies is offline  
#68 of 85 Old 12-04-2008, 10:26 PM
 
Channelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 567
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nummies View Post
Most cases of polio are harmless (90-95%).
I had a question about this. I found this on the CDC website:

"Up to 95% of persons infected with polio will have no symptoms. About four to eight percent of infected persons have minor symptoms such as fever, fatigue, nausea, headache, flu-like symptoms, stiffness in the neck and back, and pain in the limbs which often resolves completely. Fewer than one percent of polio cases result in permanent paralysis of the limbs (usually the legs). Of those paralyzed, 5-10% die when the paralysis strikes the respiratory muscles."

So can anyone tell me what these percentages mean? How many people get the polio virus each year? (I have no clue so lets say 1000). If 1000 people get the virus and 95% of those have no symptoms, that means 50 people get it and show symptoms right? Out of those 50 people that show symptoms one percent of those can result in permanent paralysis of the limbs, is that what 5 people? Of these five 5-10% die, so that's how many?

You said there hasn't been a case since 1980's? Do you have proof of this? (just curious, and would like to have the proof to show people). Because according to this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17035927
we had less than 2000 in 2005.

Thanks!
Channelle is offline  
#69 of 85 Old 12-04-2008, 10:31 PM
 
alegna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 44,408
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Channelle View Post
You said there hasn't been a case since 1980's? Do you have proof of this? (just curious, and would like to have the proof to show people). Because according to this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17035927
we had less than 2000 in 2005.

Thanks!
No cases in the western hemisphere since the 80s.

-Angela
alegna is offline  
#70 of 85 Old 12-04-2008, 10:51 PM
 
majazama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: mountains of bc
Posts: 4,664
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
but, but, if we don't vaccinate, it'll come back! (fear and panic)
majazama is offline  
#71 of 85 Old 12-04-2008, 10:53 PM
 
Channelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 567
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna View Post
No cases in the western hemisphere since the 80s.

-Angela

Ok, I do believe you, but I'm trying to get proof and back up to be able to show people. Is this documented anywhere?
Channelle is offline  
#72 of 85 Old 12-04-2008, 11:22 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,587
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
There have been no naturally occurring cases of polio in the Western Hemisphere since 1979.

There have been vaccine-connected cases as stated in the December 1996 issue of Money Magazine which discusses vaccine damage and deaths and $$$; these are associated with the Sabin vaccine, the oral version. One of the cases is a woman who contracted polio while changing her baby daughter's diaper in 1986. She is in a wheelchair now, 22 years later.

As Dr. Mendelsohn said in the mid 1980s, the only way to get polio in the United States is to get the vaccine or go stand next to someone who has just been vaccinated for polio.

The germ/virus is still around, as witness the Minnesota case of the poor Amish children whose stool samples tested + for polio, yet they showed no active illness.

BTW, I am NOT vaxed against polio and I am old enough to have had classmates with leg braces. Here I am. Still alive.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#73 of 85 Old 12-04-2008, 11:41 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri View Post
... and then the other part of me says "yeah right - until the child comes in contact with the disease; then it's too late to add.
Then you can use medicine. Just because a child comes down with some rash does not mean he is going to die. You might want to first learn about the diseases we are supposed to prevent with vaccines. When I was a kids there were only two vaccines (which are off the schedule now) and when my mother was a kids there was one. And my grandmother had none. How did we all survive. Everyone that is alive today has grandparents who lived through all those "terrible diseases". How did they manage?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Channelle View Post
I had a question about this. I found this on the CDC website:

"Up to 95% of persons infected with polio will have no symptoms. About four to eight percent of infected persons have minor symptoms such as fever, fatigue, nausea, headache, flu-like symptoms, stiffness in the neck and back, and pain in the limbs which often resolves completely. Fewer than one percent of polio cases result in permanent paralysis of the limbs (usually the legs). Of those paralyzed, 5-10% die when the paralysis strikes the respiratory muscles."

So can anyone tell me what these percentages mean? How many people get the polio virus each year? (I have no clue so lets say 1000). If 1000 people get the virus and 95% of those have no symptoms, that means 50 people get it and show symptoms right? Out of those 50 people that show symptoms one percent of those can result in permanent paralysis of the limbs, is that what 5 people? Of these five 5-10% die, so that's how many?
Your math is right but not the result. Of 2000 exposed people 1 gets paralytic polio. That meant some paralysis for over 3 months. And many did recover after that but it would still count as a case of polio.

Quote:
You said there hasn't been a case since 1980's? Do you have proof of this? (just curious, and would like to have the proof to show people). Because according to this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17035927
we had less than 2000 in 2005.
You are looking at the world. Less then 2000 world wide (India, Africa...) None in the Western Hemisphere (the Americas, Europe, Russia). None in China.

http://www.post-polio.org/edu/pphnews/pph17-3a.html

Quote:
In 1994, the Western Hemisphere was certified to be free of polio. In 2000, the Western Pacific, including China, was certified polio-free. In these 13 years, the concerted effort has succeeded in reducing the annual number of polio cases by 99 percent: there were less than 3500 confirmed cases in 2000.
Of course the article goes on to say that how great we are and how we must continue to inject kids to keep those great results. Once you are further along in your research, you will come across the 'real story of polio' which will certainly be an eye opener. Polio is a very political story. And it is considered by some 'the greatest lie ever told'.
Gitti is offline  
#74 of 85 Old 12-05-2008, 02:06 AM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,587
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Your math is right but not the result. Of 2000 exposed people 1 gets paralytic polio. That meant some paralysis for over 3 months. And many did recover after that but it would still count as a case of polio.
Exactly! here are some people who had polio...http://www.nndb.com/lists/272/000073053/

Gene Simmons?

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#75 of 85 Old 12-05-2008, 02:20 AM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,587
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
O.K., another post. I love presidential trivia. Do you all remember that President Bush's DD, Jenna, got married a couple of months ago?

Jenna's new FIL is in a wheel chair because he got polio from his son's live virus vaccine in 1973. He is John Henry Hager of NC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_H._Hager

Did anyone read this in the media?

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#76 of 85 Old 12-05-2008, 12:01 PM
 
Juraelnati's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Quote:
You said there hasn't been a case since 1980's? Do you have proof of this? (just curious, and would like to have the proof to show people). Because according to this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17035927
we had less than 2000 in 2005.
You are looking at the world. Less then 2000 world wide (India, Africa...) None in the Western Hemisphere (the Americas, Europe, Russia). None in China.

http://www.post-polio.org/edu/pphnews/pph17-3a.html


Not only are the only cases of polio not in the western hemisphere, but they are occurring in countries where the OPV is still in use. Hmmm, I wonder where all that polio is coming from...?
Juraelnati is offline  
#77 of 85 Old 12-05-2008, 12:09 PM
 
Ophelia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: MinneSNOWta
Posts: 2,445
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
The germ/virus is still around, as witness the Minnesota case of the poor Amish children whose stool samples tested + for polio, yet they showed no active illness.
My understanding is that they tested it specifically and found not the virus itself but antibodies against the virus, and they figured that the baby had been in contact with someone who got the OPV. Maybe someone can confirm this as I'm not sure I'm getting it quite right.

Quote:
Jenna's new FIL is in a wheel chair because he got polio from his son's live virus vaccine in 1973.
Did not know that. I also read somewhere that in the 80s, I think, a mom got paralytic polio from changing her baby's diaper after the baby got the OPV.

DS 2006 nocirc.gif DiaperFreeBaby angel1.gif March 2010, DD 2011

Ophelia is offline  
#78 of 85 Old 12-05-2008, 01:30 PM
 
CookAMH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: the great northwest
Posts: 4,472
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophelia View Post
My understanding is that they tested it specifically and found not the virus itself but antibodies against the virus, and they figured that the baby had been in contact with someone who got the OPV. Maybe someone can confirm this as I'm not sure I'm getting it quite right.
That's what I recall hearing.

Alicia, wife to an loving and faithful DH, and mama to three fantastic though nutty children (cs, then an HBAC, then a VBAC!!).
CookAMH is offline  
#79 of 85 Old 12-05-2008, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
Blu Razzberri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,743
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is scandalously interesting.

WARNING: The comments and opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the community in which I reside; or those of the internet parenting network.
Blu Razzberri is offline  
#80 of 85 Old 12-05-2008, 07:21 PM
 
a(TM)?Star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Under mounds of laundry. HELP!
Posts: 1,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri View Post
This is scandalously interesting.

Hey Blu!: Once you start to open this can of worms, you'll see that it's verrrwwy scandalous.

: Mama to ds (5) and dd (3) and .
a(TM)?Star is offline  
#81 of 85 Old 12-05-2008, 11:53 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,587
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophelia View Post
Did not know that. I also read somewhere that in the 80s, I think, a mom got paralytic polio from changing her baby's diaper after the baby got the OPV.
That was in the December 1996 issue of Money Magazine. It was Lenita Schafer and her daughter was Melissa. They lived in New England. The baby was born in July 1988. She received her vaccination in October and by Thanksgiving Lenita felt severe back pain and lost movement in her legs. Lenita had not been given the federally required warning that the oral vaccine contains live polio virus that can cause polio in some babies or in the people who come in contact with the live virus shed in the babies' stools and body fluids. Even if she had been given the current two page CDC information sheet on the risks and benefits of the live polio vaccine, she would not have had a true picture of the danger she faced.

The CDC sheet that doctors are required by law to give to parents still states that contact polio is a risk only for people who have never been immunized, Yet, Lenita, then 36, was immunized as a child. The CDC knows better since minutes from a June 1995 meeting of their advisory committee on immunizations show that they knew that people who were vaccinated are susceptible to contact polio.

The CDC information sheet is outdated and inaccurate.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#82 of 85 Old 12-06-2008, 12:41 PM
 
Channelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 567
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna View Post
Okay- they've rearranged.

Here's the link:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ads/safety.pdf

And if you scroll down it says, under Decreases in Disease Risks:



-Angela
Hi, when I click on this link it says the page cannot be found. Does anyone have a working link, I'm really interested in having this on paper to show people! Thanks!
Channelle is offline  
#83 of 85 Old 12-06-2008, 12:53 PM
 
alegna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 44,408
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And it's moved again...

here you go:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...safety-508.pdf

-Angela
alegna is offline  
#84 of 85 Old 12-08-2008, 07:53 PM
 
mama de dos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes, it is, unfortunately scandalous.

I worked personally and closely with a sweet 2 year old boy and his family in a north-midwestern state who contracted paralytic polio at 2 mos from his routine vaccination.
(this was in the 1990s, when OPV was still being used in the routine schedule)

The doctors finally figured out what was going on with him, after observing his reaction and worsening condition for several days. He went on to develop full-blown paralytic polio, and at the time I was working with him and his family, required 24-hr nursing care, tube feeding, and breathing via respirator, and was, of course, completely wheelchair dependent, not even able to support his own head.

His family were recent immigrants and blown away with caring for him and navigating a foreign and complicated medical and legal system. I was with them through much, though not all, of their trip through the vaccine compensation program, hearings with the special master, experts on both sides, etc. What a nightmare.

Strangers argued over whether 'nursing care' could be by just licensed practical nurses, or whether registered nurses were required and 'worth' the extra pay required, what type of vehicle should be covered, how much respite care should be funded, what types of therapies were needed and how often they should be provided, how much annually was required for diapers, and on and on and on... And I'm just sitting there, interpreting into their language, trying to help them make sense of it all, while thinking silently "And all this torture and disability to protect this sweet baby from a disease that hasn't been seen in the western hemishpere in YEARS!?!?"

UN. Fricking. Believable. :

You just wouldn't believe what this child and his family went through. All because the mom thought she was doing the best and required thing for her baby, and had him vaccinated according to the AAP's schedule. I was responsible for helping to coordinate his medical care and support for his family, and believe me, it took many people working together to provide basic services for all his needs.

After working with them, I began to question the whole vaccine thing, and to read, and read, and read some more, after I had kids of my own.

It's so hard sometimes, to go against what we all "know" to be true- "Vaccines protect babies!" and yet, having seen the potential consequences so closely, it is so important to educate yourself before you make health care decisions for your children. (and yourself!)

For me, the vaccine deal comes down to 3 basic questions, for each and every vaccine and its associated disease:

Is this specific vaccine:

1) safe?

2) effective?

3) necessary? i.e., is the risk of a)contracting the disease at all
and b) suffering serious illness, disability, or death from the disease, *higher* than the risk of having a reaction to the vaccine?

So far, I haven't answered these questions in favor of vaccinating.

Uh oh, poopy diaper calls.

Keep reading, everyone.

mama de dos is offline  
#85 of 85 Old 12-09-2008, 10:06 AM
 
mama de dos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
and one other question/rant re the DTaP-

I don't understand why they push this vaccine on tiny 2 and 4 month old babies!! ok, well, supposedly it's in order to protect them from pertussis, since it *is* much more dangerous for babies under 6 mos. BUT, the babies don't have the full 'protection' (which isn't that great anyway) from the series until after 6 mos, when they've received the 3rd vaccine. But by then, they are out of the most dangerous period anyway!

And this vaccine is one of, if not THE, most highly reactive, and therefore most dangerous for vulnerable 2 and 4 mo olds. :

Anyway, just my .02 on the matter.
mama de dos is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off