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Old 09-03-2008, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi I'm new around these parts. I need some help.

With my first son, I vax'd; I circ'd; I did many things wrong. Since joining MDC, I've learned so much. Wanna talk circ? I'll run up one side of you and down the other with information. You likely won't circ when I'm done with you.

But now it's come time for DS2's routine vaccinations. He's two months old. I don't know much about vaccinations; but I'm open to learning. I'm in Canada (wherever that makes a difference in information). From what I've read so far, I'm thinking I'll end up falling into the selective/delayed vax category.

So if you're very knowledgeable in the vaccines department, PLEASE give me what you've got. Tell me why (you think) I should not vaccinate. Give me your arguments on specific vaccines (the only one I know for sure he won't be getting is the 'chicken pox' vaccine - my doctor agrees with me so far). Please don't use short forms; as I'm not generally familiar with them and only know a few. Oh, and PLEASE come subscribe and come back from time to time; as I will most likely have questions. Thank you.

WARNING: The comments and opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the community in which I reside; or those of the internet parenting network.
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Old 09-04-2008, 01:36 PM
 
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My favorite place to read (besides old threads, I mean, which are great to search) is here:

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/

They've got articles on specific vaccines and lots of cool links, like the CDC pink books (surprisingly helpful in the decision not to vaccinate). I don't consider myself well-read enough to answer eighty zillion questions though.
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Old 09-04-2008, 02:27 PM
 
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Here's two links of people who I think have some good information on the topic - Dr. Mendelsohn and Hillary Butler. Dr. Mendelsohn gives his reasoning for being an anti-vax ped.
http://www.*********/v/mendelsohn.html
http://www.*********/vaccines/butler3.html

Mercola's website also has some good articles:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/Ar...egory=Vaccines

This article is for the over 50 but it does discuss children briefly. It is a great explanation of how vaxes affect the brain without getting too scrientific.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...our-brain.aspx

Personally I researched the diseases... the symptoms, how serious they are, and the numbers of poeple who caught it in the US (hopefully someone will have a link to the CDC Pink Book). The couple of diseases I thought were serious were Polio (which hasn't occured naturally in decades) and ditheria (which is somewhere between 0-5 cases for 30 years now). Even tetanus is only something like 45 people per year and it's mostly senior citizens; not children.

Then I weighed how rare the serious diseases are and how silly it is to vax for more harmless disearses (like chikenpox, and rubella). In the end I did not see the risk was worth the benefits for my child.

Now I will probably check titers as a preteen/teen and see if my LO has natural immunity to some of the things which would be more detrimental to have as an adult like Rubella (I have a dd) and checkenpox and we'll make the decision together.
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Old 09-05-2008, 01:39 AM
 
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Why I haven't vaxed my DS:
I'm not comfortable with vaccine ingredients
I'm not comfortable with vaccine safety testing
I think the schedule is too much too soon
I think some vaxes are unnecessary (and the more I read, I think all of them may be unnecessary)
I have an extensive family history of autoimmune disease
I think vaccines are related (but not sole cause) of rising autism rates
the corruption in the system leads me not to trust FDA/CDC/whoever (people who make money off vaccines also approve them, etc etc.)

I'm still reading, still studying. May start at 2 years old, may never start. Leaning towards never.
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:18 AM
 
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The best starting place I think is to research EACH disease and EACH vaccine.

The default is to NOT vaccinate while you research.

When I researched, I found no vaccines I wanted to give my kids at this point. The risks outweigh the benefits.

-Angela
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by alegna View Post
...The default is to NOT vaccinate while you research...

I was reading another thread when I came across this statement in your response. At first it made perfect sense to me; but the more I think about it, the more I ask "but what if the baby gets something deadly or paralyzing before I have a chance to learn about the disease and vaccine?"; and that scares me too. I'm saying this out loud and honestly, because I know I'm not the only one following this thread, and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'm scared of both vaccinating and not vaccinating. I need more information, links, books, websites, whatever you've got. Talk to me!

WARNING: The comments and opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the community in which I reside; or those of the internet parenting network.
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:53 AM
 
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My personal page with a lot of information and movies
www.myspace.com/parentsagainstvax

www.vaclib.org

www.nvic.org That one tells you about the vaccine and the disease. It's neither pro or against vaccines. Just gives you the facts.

I don't vaccinate because of
The toxic ingredients
I believe vaccines gave me arthritis
I will not be putting aborted fetal tissue into my children
I will not be putting monkey kidney tissue or other animal parts in my children
Dr. Sherri Tenpenny told me it was better not to.
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:53 AM
 
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I really loved the book "Take Charge of Your Child's Health" by George Wootan. I came across it by accident in the library, and it doesn't seem to be very well-known, but I have no idea why. He refers to Robert Mendelsohn as being very influential to him. (You HAVE to read "How to Raise a Healthy Child...In Spite of Your Doctor" - NOW. Very quick, easy read.) Another good book is "Vaccines: Are they really safe & effective?"

Yes, not vaxxing is the default. You can not take them back. The majority of the diseases are not a concern until later in life. After all, most shots need 2-3 rounds before they are complete. The ONLY reason they do them at age 2, 4, 6 months, etc, is because you are already taking your baby in for well visits, so that's when they have a captive (and scared, and uninformed--IMO) audience to get them done expediently...No, I'm not joking. "Compliance" is of primary concern when the vax schedule is determined, as in - when can we get the patient to show up? This is why newborns get Hep B shots!!! Not because they need them, but because no one is going to hold the hands of the hookers and the drug addicts when they are old enough to "need" them.

***
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri View Post

I was reading another thread when I came across this statement in your response. At first it made perfect sense to me; but the more I think about it, the more I ask "but what if the baby gets something deadly or paralyzing before I have a chance to learn about the disease and vaccine?"; and that scares me too. I'm saying this out loud and honestly, because I know I'm not the only one following this thread, and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'm scared of both vaccinating and not vaccinating. I need more information, links, books, websites, whatever you've got. Talk to me!
Well, whether or not the medical establishment likes it, the default state of the human body is unvaccinated

Fear is a rotten decision-making tool. No major decisions should be made on fear. You shouldn't decide TO vaccinate because you're afraid, and you shouldn't decided NOT to vaccinate because you're afraid.

Have you lived the first two months of your baby's life in fear that they would catch something "deadly or paralyzing"? If not- what changes at the magic 2 month mark?

Personally I'm a believer in as close to primary sources as possible. My best research came from sources like- CDC, VAERS, vaccine manufacturers, old nursing and parenting books, etc.

Research should include:

vaccines- combos, ingredients, listed side effects, known adverse reactions, recorded connected deaths, etc.

Diseases- numbers of cases, symptoms, complications, treatments, chance of death, etc.

When it comes right down to it- all the diseases we currently vaccinate for have known treatments. The vaccine reactions do not.

Even the CDC admits that there is a higher chance of vaccine reaction than even CATCHING *any* of the vaccine available diseases.

-Angela
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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...I'm not comfortable with vaccine ingredients
I'm not comfortable with vaccine safety testing...
Where can I find out about the ingredients, and where can I get information about the safety tests? (I know things are slightly different here than in the US, so if you know of anything Canada-specific, please let me know)

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Old 09-05-2008, 03:08 AM
 
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you can usually find the vaccine inserts with ingredients if you google the company that makes the vax. (merk etc)

Canada uses the same vaxes as the US - same safety research (or lack thereof...)

-Angela
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you Angela; those are some good and very logical answers.

Autumn; are you serious? Ew. This is definitely unpleasant news to me. Thanks for sharing; I'll visit the MySpace page tomorrow for sure!

And for anyone else following this thread; here is a list of things to 'ask' when researching vaccines, that I bookmarked from another thread.

WARNING: The comments and opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the community in which I reside; or those of the internet parenting network.
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:44 AM
 
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One of the mods-Emmaline(?) has awesome links in her sig.

Maybe visit the I'm Not Vaccinating forum-lots of well-informed mommas there too.

Hats off to you,just for even questioning this issue.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:43 AM
 
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My favorite resource is http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:53 PM
 
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Well I honestly agree with the searching every single vaccine, studies done, when and how those studdies were done, how were those studies funded? was the disease already on the downslope?

Most importantly.... how does the doctor react... do you feel they are pushing your decision like a car salesman, when you haven't studied it out yet. My sons Ped.s entire demeaner changed as soon as vaccinations were brought up, esp. full of uncertainty after the reactions. He acted strange.


I read the VAERS, I read the CDC information, and I went from there. I found mothering, and for the first time in my life, I didn't feel so alone or attacked!

I personally will not ever vaccinate again because I watched my sons reactions to them. So I have the personal one on one horror story that no one wants, and yet it spoke volumes to me, much more than just trying to get something from studies and numbers. He is not autistic, but he was covered in a rash, huge swelling of the entire limb of the injection site, and went into convulsions. He couldn't make eye contact for a while, his eyes completely glassed over, and he had no temperature.

So as the debate goes on, and I assume it will for years! My children will not recieve any more based on both study, research, and first hand experience.

I like listening rather than reading... so this is one of my favorite places to visit, and send others too as well.

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_bl...afe-48866.aspx

Oh... one more thing... Look into the Amish community and Autism... Look into other religous communities or groups that do not vaccinate, and the amount of Autism and other diseases there...
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:26 PM
 
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Ever wonder what happened to the Plague? Or Scarlet Fever? Sure, they're still around, but they are not epidemic. Yet we in the US or Canada don't vaccinate for them. And nobody worries about them either, even though they have potential to be fatal. Heck, the Plague wiped out one third of Europe once upon a time. But we're not living in open sewers anymore.

We personally feel that the body's natural state is healthiest. Plus we object to many of the ingredients, including aluminum and aborted fetal tissue. And we feel that some of the ingredients may compound conditions that predispose an individual to autism.

Single Mama to my sweet boo.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:52 PM
 
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http://www.vran.org/

This is a Canadian Site.

Wife to DH, Mom to my Intact Boys DS1: Born 02 Pain Med Free Hospital Birth, BF'ed for 9 Months, Partially Vax'd DS2: Born 06 via UC, BF'ed 3 years 10 months, and UnVax'd
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:54 PM
 
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Just wanted to add that a breastfeeding momma has lots to offer a babe in immunities!!
Lots of viruses and bacteria are not able to compete with moms milk-keeping yourself healthy goes a long way also.
Aviva Jill Romm has a great book out if you lean toward herbal remedies-
VACCINATIONS -A THOUGHTFUL PARENTS GUIDE

::
momma to 4
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:24 PM
 
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I'm reading The Vaccine Book by Dr Sears right now and really like the format. Although it's worded in as neutral a way as possible (still quite a bit pro-vax), it's really made me confident in my decision not to vax. He goes over each illness, each vaccine, how it's made, what the side effects are, why some people choose not have them, why some people do. It's a surprisingly easy read, it's engaging. Like one of two evenings' time.

Basically, alot of the vaccines for the first couple years are for things your baby won't likely catch if he's not attending daycare and you're bf'ing.

Some other vaccines are more of a public health issue than a "your child may catch that" thing. If you feel that it's important, your kids can get those when they're teens or something.

Anyway, check to see if your library has the book!
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:31 PM
 
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I'm reading The Vaccine Book by Dr Sears right now and really like the format. Although it's worded in as neutral a way as possible (still quite a bit pro-vax), it's really made me confident in my decision not to vax. He goes over each illness, each vaccine, how it's made, what the side effects are, why some people choose not have them, why some people do. It's a surprisingly easy read, it's engaging. Like one of two evenings' time.

Basically, alot of the vaccines for the first couple years are for things your baby won't likely catch if he's not attending daycare and you're bf'ing.

Some other vaccines are more of a public health issue than a "your child may catch that" thing. If you feel that it's important, your kids can get those when they're teens or something.

Anyway, check to see if your library has the book!
:

The book leans toward being pro-vax but it actually convinced me NOT to. Weird.

Also, what deadly disease are you afraid of? You mentioned being nervous about that so I was wondering which one you had in mind.

Best of luck to you. It can be overwhelming to start out. I remember that feeling. If you want, I would be more than happy to break down each vax/ disease with you and give you my thoughts on the matter.

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Old 09-05-2008, 11:33 PM
 
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The book leans toward being pro-vax but it actually convinced me NOT to. Weird.
Exactly.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:34 PM
 
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Old 09-06-2008, 01:25 AM
 
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Even the CDC admits that there is a higher chance of vaccine reaction than even CATCHING *any* of the vaccine available diseases.

-Angela
Do you have a source for this? I'm gearing up for my ds's 4 month checkup and I want to be prepared because at his two month his ped. and I got in a debate when we said we weren't going to vax.
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Old 09-06-2008, 01:35 AM
 
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Do you have a source for this? I'm gearing up for my ds's 4 month checkup and I want to be prepared because at his two month his ped. and I got in a debate when we said we weren't going to vax.

Non vaxing parent lesson 101:

Do not debate your Ped on vaccination. It's like herding cats!

Memorize this statement:

"it is against my sincerely held religious beliefs to vaccinate"

Repeat as necessary..followed by:

"this is not up for discussion"

OP - Research...look back at the vaccines you got...You're still here so you can pretty much rule out anything you didn't get. Look at what your parents got...you're still here...they obviously survived long enough to have you....you can rule out anything they didn't have. Look at your grandparents, you're still here..you can rule out anything they didn't have. This should leave you with few if any vaccines to even think about. Then, look at the diseases and see which scares you more, the vaccine or the disease. Since diseases are treatable and vaccine reaction (if actually ever admitted to) are not, you may find that you have made your decision.

ITA with Angela, if you were not paralized with fear for the first 2 months, why is that magically going to change at 2 months and 1 day? You have time to look into this before you inject anything.

You can always add vaccines, but you can never take them back.

It's kinda like circumcision - you can never go back and reattach the foreskin...intact is the default as is nonvaccinated.

Victim of Birth Rape & Coerced ribboncesarean.gifUnnecesareanribboncesarean.gif What makes people think they can cut up someone else's genitals? nocirc.gif
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Old 09-06-2008, 01:37 AM
 
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Do you have a source for this? I'm gearing up for my ds's 4 month checkup and I want to be prepared because at his two month his ped. and I got in a debate when we said we weren't going to vax.
It's on the front page of the pink book. I'll try to come back and link later tonight.

BUT- do NOT argue with a ped. Waste of time. Simply tell him what you will or will not do.

-Angela
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Old 09-06-2008, 02:35 AM
 
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Okay- they've rearranged.

Here's the link:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ads/safety.pdf

And if you scroll down it says, under Decreases in Disease Risks:

Quote:
This number exceeds
the current reported incidence of vaccine-preventable
childhood diseases. As a result, parents and providers in the
United States are more likely to know someone who has
experienced an adverse event following immunization than
they are to know someone who has experienced a reportable
vaccine-preventable disease.
-Angela
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Old 09-06-2008, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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...Also, what deadly disease are you afraid of? You mentioned being nervous about that so I was wondering which one you had in mind....
Polio is really the only one I know about, and I'm scared of the effects it could have if baby got it. But I'm worried about all of them. I know there's a lot of scaremongering (I've seen the website for the company that manufactures the chicken pox vaccine - chicken pox sure is deadly ); but I don't have enough info about the rest of them to think/know that the claims are just fear based.

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...If you want, I would be more than happy to break down each vax/ disease with you and give you my thoughts on the matter...
Please do. Preferably on the thread because there are others who are following it for information as well; but you can PM me if you'd rather.

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Old 09-06-2008, 01:26 PM
 
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Truly the effects of the vaccines can be much worse than the diseases.

I am now a non vaxer and I was the party line follower. It took having a severe reaction to turn me around.

The are treatments for the diseases but there is no cure for the reactions.

Also, the reactions are sort of like a lottery. Some of you children may be fine, the same child may have survived vaccines just fine. But all it takes is one vaccines, one needle, the wrong day and your life takes a new and scary turn.

I am disgusted by the control pharmaceutical companies have by leading us with fear.
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Old 09-06-2008, 02:15 PM
 
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Read through the archives which are broken down by disease. There are tons of great references and lots of great info.

Here are some other common websites that are a great place to start:

This website has all the vaccines available and their package inserts where you can read the ingredients and safety studies. Be ready to be shocked! Vaccines are not tested against a saline control group…they are tested against other vaccines....

http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf

Got to this website and click on the current issue of the MMWR. Scroll to the bottom and you will see the disease rates in the US for the past few years. You can see how many cases of each VPD there were. Very useful when you are trying to see how likely it is that your child will run into say polio…

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html

This is info straight from the horses mouth. The CDC pink book is a little gem that goes over each VPD, how it’s spread, symptoms, death rates, vaccine info, etc. It’s pretty straight forward and once you read it, you will wonder why we even vax for certain things.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...k-chapters.htm

Hilary Butler has some excellent articles

http://www.*********/vaccines/butler3.html

Dr. Tenpenny Video. Very informative and she covers pretty much everything in an easy to understand format

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40451107552&q=

Mary Tocco viedo. Excellent!! Easy to understand.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...87981735&hl=en

That is a good starting place.

I agree that not vaxing is the default. Delay all vax until you have done your research and feel comfy in your choice.
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Old 09-06-2008, 03:42 PM
 
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Polio is really the only one I know about, and I'm scared of the effects it could have if baby got it. But I'm worried about all of them. I know there's a lot of scaremongering (I've seen the website for the company that manufactures the chicken pox vaccine - chicken pox sure is deadly ); but I don't have enough info about the rest of them to think/know that the claims are just fear based.



Please do. Preferably on the thread because there are others who are following it for information as well; but you can PM me if you'd rather.
Well alright then!

Let's start with Polio because that is the one you mentioned in your post.

What is polio? Virus. Spread kinda like the common cold. It also can be spread through the fecal/ oral route. When a non-infected person comes in contact with the stool of an infected person. There are three different strains of the virus that causes Polio. Symptoms range from a sore throat/ slight fever to muscle weakness/ paralysis. However, the paralysis occurs less often. Most cases of polio are harmless (90-95%). Most often is usually not fatal.

What are the odds of catching polio? Polio is now very, very rare. In fact, there hasn't been a case in the US since the 1980s.

"Recommended schedule" 2months, 4 months, 18 months, and 5 year booster.

Polio ingredients- To name a few, formaldehyde, baby cow blood products, monkey cells, aborted fetal tissue, phenoxyethanol

Adverse reactions- All the standard ones (pain, fever, diarrhea, vomiting, headaches, etc.) Plus Guillain-Barre syndrome. Guillain-Barre is symmetric weakness of the limbs develops over a few days, begins in the legs, and sometimes progresses to complete paralysis.

Why I don't allow my child to get this one For one, Polio is not common anymore in the US. The only way that I would choose to do this was if we were planning on traveling to Africa/ Asia. I also don't agree with the ingredients.

Three boys.  jumpers.gif
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