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#61 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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MT - if we have the proper levels for our bodies of selenium, S.A., Vit. E, B vitamins ... will the glutathione take care of itself? Or do we need to supplement that too? Oh, and how much cysteine is good to take? The nutritional yeast I slug down has 60 mg of it per serving ... ahh ... so much to learn (but all so fascinating!).
I think that the body has amazing powers to regenerate itself given the basic tools to do so. The Pfeiffer Centre has clearly shown that appropriate levels of nutrients can correct the glutathione levels.

I believe that if we do our diets right, then we only need to supplement what we know is missing in our environment, and the body will do the rest itself.

In the past, say with your great great grandmother this wasn't so much of an issue, because farming techniques weren't an extraction industry based on NPK. Farmers knew they had to put back into the environment or else.

The levels of junk food MY great grand parents had was minimal, and all had extensive gardens and some orchards as well. It was how they lived. They didn't use sprays, they used compost, and most helped at horse stables from free muck and never thought about tetanus either. Nor tetanus jabs.

They believed in hard work, grow what you can, eat simply and it panned out.

Now, we are in a totally different situation with agrichemicals run amok, lack of minerals caused by lousy farming techniques that use quick-grow/quick-fix techniques, and while it might "look" the same we are being "ripped off".

So whereas your ancestors didn't need to know much because they got pretty much what they needed in times of plenty, we need to know a lot more.

First, the last two generations have lost that generations knowledge of self-sufficiency and bought into the balanced meal is a TV platter on your knee deal. Look at the junk kids eat that wasn't there 40 years ago.

We have lost the plot, and sit in the midst of swirling petro chemicals from every angle, and naively think that that green broccoli is what it used to be.

But it isn't.

And that's why people need to go right back to basics, to understand what the minerals are, why they are important THAT they are no longer in foods any more and to ask themselves "What can we do about this?"

First know your facts... that will motivate you.

Second work out these issues.

1) Can I grow what myself?

Yes? then do what you can.

What can I do about the rest? Work it out.

No, then maybe window boxes perhaps? Anything is better than nothing.

Next step:

are there organic co-ops in my area? Do I mean this enough to make the effort to join? This might mean I have to give one, or two days work a month maybe, or it might cost X dollars.

What is most important to you and how can you manage it?

These aren't questions I can answer; they are questions only you can find out the answers to.

What this thread is about is KNOWING WHY we need to know what we need to know.

So, I'm doing minerals first, what foods they are in, and their connections to the body, why they are important, and maybe then, knowing that, everyone will be more motivated.

It's good for me to do this, because I get slack. Sitting around with books all around me, I have to revise, and I'm going "Ah, I'd forgotten that silly woman...."

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#62 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 04:20 AM
 
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I have to admit our garden also has wood to square off the beds, and yes, additives leaching is a concern. I just try not to think about it. I've talked it over with the organics people here, who tell me that if you have high organic composition in soil, some of the toxicities are bound in that, and not transferred to plants. I hope they weren't patronising me, because I can't afford to change what we have done... If you have access to old railway sleepers, they might be better.
Are you referring to treated wood or just wood? Just FYI for treated wood, if you must use it, replace it before it begins to decompose. There is a lot out there that says treated wood is OK (and in the states now it's treated with copper, not chromium arsenate, so goodbye arsenic hello copper toxicities), but I have not found a site that discusses the danger when it breaks down. We have some broken down stuff here. Near the garden. The garden is moved, inspired by a hair analysis. I need another one of these :

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#63 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Our teeth, our digestive system (incl. the length and nature of our tract and the ph of our saliva and stomach acids), the fact that we cannot create our own vit C or tolerate large quantities of dietary cholesteral, unlike carnivores, down to the fact that when we drink we SUCK water in, as the herbivores/frugivores do, instead of LAPPING it up as the carnivores do.

Plus, speaking of instincts, how many of us find the idea of hunting and killing an animal with our bare hands and teeth (not that we COULD, not with OUR hands and teeth) and ripping into it raw/still kicking. Or even find raw meat, meat not disguised by cooking and other preparation, palatible? Some might argue we've lost that instinct, but I suspect we never had it.
Having lived with indigenous Inuits in Alaska, I would question this Those still close to the land have a huge understanding of nutrition that we have totally lost. Inuits have the ability to find a vast array of berries, herbs and vegetables that most americans don't even know exist, but not one would turn up the offer of seal, ptarmigan, moose and even early spring bear if put in that position. they KNOW the value of animal fat both saturated from four leggeds, and that from whale and seals. And they certainly understand the difference in the oil content between pink and red salmon, and they structure their nutrition wonderfully.

WHEN... they are not forced away from subsistence living and told to live on white flour and sugar by your everyday average white American.

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I agree with Harvey Diamond who once wrote, "Put a toddler in a playpen with an apple and a rabbit. If it eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, I'll buy you a new car."
I think that was a slightly silly comment for Harvey to make, because it isn't the toddler in the inuit playpen that they don't have, or the toddler in Ukraine, or the toddler with the Finnish natives, or toddler in the pacific islands whose primary source of protein is fish and meat... anywhere else where a major part of their amino acid diet is animal, .....who has to feed the family. One day that toddler in the play pen when they too are hungry and have to feed their own toddler in the playpen, will click in to the ancestral learning and abilities handed down to them and do what they know they need to.

And actually my toddlers were just as likely to try to chew oxalis in the garden, as they were to figure out what the carrot was. And they wouldn't eat the apples in the garden, because ours are very sour, and primarily cookers. But they did and do know what the ripe grapes are.. except they were trellised so they couldn't get at them so easily.... now, its an easy morning's breakfast on the hoof...

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#64 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Haven't read the whole thread : and I owe MT an email about my status :
You do but you have done just great with what you have done so far, even if it was primarily hit, miss, guess and try again...

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But I have been doing a lot of reading on mineral testing and it appears that in the case of most minerals, you need to have your red blood cells tested, not a whole blood (serum) test. Here's one:

Metametrix Erythrocytes

The biggest exception is magnesium. A urinary challenge test is the standard in the medical research. I haven't found a company yet, but I'll report back when I do.
Absolutely, this is what Ellen says to, but to fly to the UK is so expensive, and there is nothing here to do that with, so unfortunately, I have to put my blindfold on and try to pin the tail on the donkey. All I can do here, is try to make as educated a guess as possible.

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The other thing to keep in mind is that your blood cells regenerate faster than some of the other cells in your body. For instance, you might begin to treat a zinc deficiency for your depression but your brain levels of zinc will respond much slower than your blood levels. Your blood levels should be a decent measure regardless unless you began a major diet or supplement change in the last few months.
and also, that although bone cells turn over every day, you could say that every seven years, you have a new skeleton.

A lot of people don't realise that they are living on the reserves of maybe five years ago, and that the brick wall they are about to bang into might have been started back at a time when they started to ignore basic principles.

People sometimes don't realise that it takes a while for basic errors of judgement to come and bite them on the backside.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#65 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The wood around the garden is fine right now, but I'm looking at what I might do in the future... so far soil testing shows there's no leaching into the garden.

I'd really like brick or stone walls, but they are so hard on my shins and take up a lot of space, so once the wood starts to go, I'm probably going to rip it out, and just use raised beds with stepping stones...

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#66 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So back to basics.

What are my key books for minerals?

"The Healing Power of Minerals, special nutrients and trace elements" Paul Bergner

A book specially written for this country: "Stay healthy by supplementing what's lacking in your diet" by David Coory. And he doesn't mean supplementing with pills, he means knowing your diet, doing your best and any supplement is only the cherry on the cake.

In our country that HAS to be selenium.

I also have "mineral deficiencies in Human cells" by M. C. H. Blackmore and all Carl Pfeiffer's books, because they are so down to earth. And also dorothy Hall and Carol Odell's "The Natural Health cookbook" because she explains it so well, and hers was the first book that actually started to make all this make sense to me.

But it will be Paul Bergner's book that is of most use to most Americans.

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#67 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The next one most of interest to me, is Boron, because its another of these ones that we don't get enough of in our country.

When you buy broccoli, does it have a hollow stem? Yes? If so, it won't have boron in it.. sorry.

Jamaican and New Zealand soils are chronically low, and its no fluke that both countries have a high arthritis rate.

Early studies of humans temporarily deprived of Boron found symptoms similar to that of lead poisoning. poor concentration, weak short term memory and lack of physical dexterity.

Boron plays a critical role in the preventions of osteoporosis, because it helps bones absorb calcium and magnesium, and may act by influencing parathyroid hormone which regulates the calcium to phosphorus ratio in the body. It also helps convert vitamin D into its active form, so if you don't have enough boron, going out in the sun isn't going to be much use to you.

In one study, when post menopausal women were supplemented with boron, their excretion of calcium and mangnesium dramatically reduced, and they, on average, doubled their production of oestrogen, so this is something I'm interested in, to try to mitigate the whole menopause "thing".

so if anyone tells you that osteoporosis hinges on calcium, you'll know their brain suffers from a slight knowledge deficit.

Boron helps maintain a good brain.

Boron was only established as an essential mineral for humans in 1990.

Too little = arthritis, osteoporosis, dental caries increased risk of prostate cancer, lack of physical co-ordination, weak short term memory, poor concentration, lack of oestrogen in women.

Too much = no know toxic effects below 100 mg daily. Toxicity symptoms nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea skin rash. Some of that is probably due to the loss of Vitramin B2 through the urine, which occurs with acute boron overdose.

No significant loss in cooking.

RDI Males 11 - 14 1.5 mg, 15 - 18 2.0 mg, 19+ 2.5

Females 11 -14 1.5 mg
15 - 18 2.0
19 - 24 2.5
25+ 3.0

Organic Foods high in boron.

1/3 cup raisins 2.4 mg
1/2 avocado 1.6
1/3 cup sultanas .8
1 cup fruit juice .6
1 tomato .5
1 pear .5
1 apple .5
5 prunes .4
2 plums .4
5 dates .4
5 dried apricot halves .4
1 orange .3
1 apple .3
1 kiwifruit .3

1/3 cup almond nuts 1.4
1/3 cup hazel nuts 1.3
1/3 cup brazil nuts .8
1 tbsp peanut butter .3

3/4 cup red kidney beans 2.8
2 cobs sweet corn 1.4
1 med kumara .3
2 med potatoes .3

100 gms fish .3

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#68 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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PS the garden four years ago. The beds are now twice as high, becuase with the amount of compost I make it has to go somewhere:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/4...108AYuGTFs4aM1

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/4...108AYuGTFs4aM1

OUr soil:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/4...108AYuGTFs4aM1

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#69 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 09:02 AM
 
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Selenium influences thyroid hormone and iodine metabolism as well as already widely studied antioxidant systems.

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What does this mean for a hypothyroid-er, like myself?
Thanks!
(bumping)
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#70 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 12:13 PM
 
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Let's get some basics straight.
I think that's the best approach in every field.

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But the reality is that in this country I simply CANNOT get enough boron or magnesium in my diet, no matter how hard a try. Now, if I could eat as much as a cow does, I might, but even with what my parents call an apetite like a budgie, I put on weight. I feel terrible putting on weight, and right now, have a spare 30 pounds to donate elsewhere. So with the amount I can and do eat, I can't get enough basic minerals.
I don't want to sound like I'm making suggestions, but you simply wouldn't have these problems on a raw diet. You could eat till burst point without the slightest worry about weight, plus you would get all the vitamins and minerals you needed (OK, you could still supplement if you wished). This is simply almost impossible on a cooked diet because over time the food instinct is slowly lost and you're bound to start limiting yourself from eating certain things or forcing yourself to eat others.

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I do NOT WISH to get into a discussion about whether or not a raw diet is better than a cooked. I am very much an instinctive eater, and I eat cooked food. There are just too many generalisations and people taken personal positions arguing that issue. To me, this thread is about KNOWING the basics of minerals, vitamins, the food sources and then YOU,,,, YOU... have to work out how you are going to get the best out of what you have around you for your health and your family.
So lets keep off pet hobby horses, and deal with the issues intellectually, okay?
I realise you want to stay away from discussing a raw diet, but there are certain things that can't be skipped if you want to be thorough. For example, I'd like to bring up again the issue of grains being major mineral robbers for humans, especially if they are staples in the diet. I bring up the same link: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache...client=firefox because it is an interesting summary of less known effects that grains have on us. Even if many things are inaccurate, the overall message can't be ignored IMO. Quotes:
" Further, cereal grains have a Ca/P ratio which is quite low (mean from table 4>0.08) and which can negatively impact bone growth and metabolism. Consumption of a large excess of dietary phosphorus, when calcium intake is adequate or low, leads to secondary hyperparathyroidism and progressive bone loss"
"diets based upon whole grain maize [100], rice [101], wheat [102] and oats [103] have been consistently shown to reduce iron absorption"
" In addition to calcium and iron, the bioavailability of zinc, copper and magnesium in cereal grains is generally low"

So, to me, embarking on the route of supplementation is similar to accepting medication for symptoms and not treating the causes. IMO the major cause of mineral and vitamin deficiencies is the cooked diet, not only because it doesn't bring enough of these substances but also because their absorption and metabolism is disturbed. Everything in nature is toxic to a certain extent because noone wants to be eaten by others, so the key is to find the foods that our body is adapted to detoxify best. Birds do great on grains because they have evolved mechanisms to neutralize their anti-nutrients. Carnivors do great on meat for the same reason. What about humans? What can we eat most easily and naturally? That is to me going to the basics.
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#71 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 12:20 PM
 
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Or even find raw meat, meat not disguised by cooking and other preparation, palatible? Some might argue we've lost that instinct, but I suspect we never had it.
I like sushi. Even sashimi (which is just the raw fish without the seaweed/rice/other ingredients). And steak tartare

But I concede I do not have the necessary equipment to just bite into the side of a cow.
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#72 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 01:51 PM
 
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Thanks for the clarification on the yogurt stuff, MT.
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#73 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 03:17 PM
 
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I like sushi. Even sashimi (which is just the raw fish without the seaweed/rice/other ingredients). And steak tartare

But I concede I do not have the necessary equipment to just bite into the side of a cow.
Agreed... my dad used to buy me fancy steak and I'd eat it raw. Mmmmmm... and sushi too. Yum!

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#74 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 05:05 PM
 
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Regarding using store bought yogurt as starter:

I have found that it's perfectly acceptable, as did Goodpapa. The test is in the taste and the texture. If you have a very tart and gelled product at the end, it contains the live bacteria it should (especially if you make 24 hr. yogurt as I do, there is no doubt.)

However, it's not cost effective for me since you only use 1/4 cup yogurt per quart, and it should be freshly opened. I don't eat lactose right now, so I'd end up throwing the rest of the container away.

Goodpapa branched out using probiotic capsules as his starter, something like 6-8 capsules per 6 oz milk (check the "Power of Probiotics" thread to be sure) just to get specific strains. When that was turned into yogurt, he then used that small amount as starter for a larger batch.
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#75 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 06:53 PM
 
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If your headache is hormonally based, then everytime you take tylenol, you will end up with a rebound headache, becuase it switches off the glutathione pathway, which increases the hormone that causes the headache, so you need to either switch to another that doesn't use glutathione pathway ? codeine? or get to the root of the hormonal headaches, and that can be done nutritionally...
The tylenol headache thing happens to me. It is terrible. It didn't use to happen. Who knows. Anyway, FWIW, ibuprofen seems to work without the rebound effect. I am working on my diet but in the meantime the migraines still come.

BTW, I can't find Ellen Grant's book anywhere in any library system. Any ideas?

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#76 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 08:16 PM
 
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BTW, I can't find Ellen Grant's book anywhere in any library system. Any ideas?
It wasn't published in the US. I managed to get a used copy from Amazon UK.

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#77 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 08:33 PM
 
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A lot of people don't realise that they are living on the reserves of maybe five years ago, and that the brick wall they are about to bang into might have been started back at a time when they started to ignore basic principles.

People sometimes don't realise that it takes a while for basic errors of judgement to come and bite them on the backside.
Yes, I've learned that the hard way so I'll put on another one of these: :

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#78 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 09:48 PM
 
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So how long does this "funked out" effect last? This describes me perfectly. I was an Excedrin junkie in grad school, in order to keep my constant headaches at bay enough to function. Interestingly, I had to stop taking birth control pills at the same time because the headaches were horrid. But, that was 15 years ago, and ten years before my first child. Now I am one PMS/PPD hormonal mess, and, chronically anemic too. I am thinking there might be some connection...

There is so much to know about nutrition I sometimes don't know where to begin. Thanks for this thread. I think I have a rudimentary understanding of about 50% of what you said, but I am working on the rest of it.
Excedrin is aspirin and caffeine...Tylenol is acetominophen. I wonder if that would make a difference? Certainly can't be good in any case.

MT, this thread is amazing - I cannot wait to read your book!

I forget who gave the heads up on source naturals having GMOs, but thank you!!! I had no idea and I was using some of their products. No more! Oh, I just realized we use NOW stevia - do you think they use GMOs in their stevia too? AND do you know of a resource where I can find out more about who is using GMOs?
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#79 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Chasmyn, my book is nothing like this thread. It may be totally irrelevant, and you may be very disappointed in it.

I will be back later. I have to go to the library to look something up on the epic database, which can't be accessed in this country in any other way.

Interestingly yesterday on it, I discovered that mothers whose babies cord blood was low in selenium ... those babies were the ones to go on and get asthma. Babies whose cord blood had good levels of selenium, did not.

So I'm just thinking through all the lateral pathways and implications of that.

Planta, since you want to discuss the raw diet/cereals issue I will come back to that, but first I have to sit down the the printed pdf and re-read it. I'd already read it, and know my generalised thoughts on it, but need to be more precise.

Anyone else, who wishes to put up other mineral attributes and full profiles in my absense please do so. It isn't "my" thread. I was hoping everyone would pitch in a save me 90% of the work

Also, in a few days time, I'm going to be totally snowed under again. I'm already having to peg back my time at the computer, so I may go through a longish spell of not being around. Hopefully you will all put up heaps of stuff to educate me with, when that happens...

Be back soon...

Oh, the next minerals I was going to do was magnesium and then silica. If someone else wants to give that a go, go for it.


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#80 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 11:03 PM
 
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No, I know - I just mean based on all the threads I've read by you and how much information and research you have. I doubt I'll be disappointed.
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#81 of 1098 Old 02-07-2006, 11:51 PM
 
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Interestingly yesterday on it, I discovered that mothers whose babies cord blood was low in selenium ... those babies were the ones to go on and get asthma. Babies whose cord blood had good levels of selenium, did not.

So I'm just thinking through all the lateral pathways and implications of that.
I also wonder whether it makes a difference if the babe actually GETS their cord blood... meaning "not cut too soon" like they just love to do in this country.
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#82 of 1098 Old 02-08-2006, 08:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chasmyn
Excedrin is aspirin and caffeine...Tylenol is acetominophen. I wonder if that would make a difference? Certainly can't be good in any case.

?
Excedrin is acetominophen, aspirin and caffeine, so I think it would have the same blocking effect?
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#83 of 1098 Old 02-08-2006, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Planta
I don't want to sound like I'm making suggestions, but you simply wouldn't have these problems on a raw diet. You could eat till burst point without the slightest worry about weight, plus you would get all the vitamins and minerals you needed (OK, you could still supplement if you wished). This is simply almost impossible on a cooked diet because over time the food instinct is slowly lost and you're bound to start limiting yourself from eating certain things or forcing yourself to eat others.
I don't believe that a raw diet would suit my body type whatsoever.

Quote:
I realise you want to stay away from discussing a raw diet, but there are certain things that can't be skipped if you want to be thorough. For example, I'd like to bring up again the issue of grains being major mineral robbers for humans, especially if they are staples in the diet. I bring up the same link: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache...client=firefox because it is an interesting summary of less known effects that grains have on us. Even if many things are inaccurate, the overall message can't be ignored IMO. Quotes:
" Further, cereal grains have a Ca/P ratio which is quite low (mean from table 4>0.08) and which can negatively impact bone growth and metabolism. Consumption of a large excess of dietary phosphorus, when calcium intake is adequate or low, leads to secondary hyperparathyroidism and progressive bone loss"
"diets based upon whole grain maize [100], rice [101], wheat [102] and oats [103] have been consistently shown to reduce iron absorption"
" In addition to calcium and iron, the bioavailability of zinc, copper and magnesium in cereal grains is generally low"
You missed out the key part in this quote, which is the action by phytate content.

That is totally overcome by using sourdough ferments. Everything you have put up there in terms of minerals absorption is meaningless in the context of the old historically proven methods of eating grains.

He says in the text that adding yeast reduces phytate content when it doesn't. Only sourdough does.

The other thing that argues against his contention is Table 8, and that the country on his list that supposedly has the lowest grain intake i.e. America, actually has by far the highest percentage of problems and the consumes by far the vastest amount of health resources in the world. So you'd assume on the basis of grains being bad for you, that on the basis of that chart, USA would be the healthiest. Yet USA is not.

Even his suppositions on coeliac aren't correct. You don't see celiac disease in indigenous peoples whose parents chew all their solids prior to putting them into their babies mouths. Up until babies have all their molars, they don't have the saliva enzymes requires to digest any grains at all, and that is the primary reason for the development of coeliac disease. Of course the body in susceptible babies will treat some things as immunogens, especially if they are bottle fed as well, and don't have decent gut flora to even speak of.

When he talks about how amazing it was that coeliacs wasn't know about until 50 something years ago... well people only became "Euuuwwwww" about it when some company brainwashed them into thinking that baby food could only be pulped up by an expensive mouli, rather than mothers teeth and spit. Coeliacs became known at the height of mouli and formula feeding era.

I find it also interesting that susceptibility to coeliacs is about the same as the 1 per 1,000 epigenetic figure for susceptibility to disease, so I suspect there is considerable overlay in confoundings.

Furthermore, it would appear that even more valuable than taking grains out of diets, in recent times, is taking out all pigmented vegetables with lutein in them:

http://www.saras-autism-diet.freeser...as_Diet_I.html

I view this recent trend as yet another overlay of making a total hash of the basic issues surrounding gut flora and maintaining a healthy intestinal tract which is actually the foundation stone of our immunity and our nutrition.

If a mother and baby's gut flora are trashed in pregnancy through diet abuse, antibiotic abuse and environmental toxins, then the issues they will face will be formidable, and to me, the key to the issue is the systematic removal of gut flora with antibiotics and the neurotic removal from diet of useful probiotics like butter and cheese made from unpasteurised cheese, the demise of properly fermented beer and wine without crap additives, the demise of kefir until more recently, the virtual demise of naturally fermented krauts and pickles, and the total phobia surrounding bacteria like listeria, which in guts with appropriate gut flora, mean and do nothing.

Stick into that vaccines and agrichemicals and you have a recipe for disaster of far greater proportions than anything else, and with the new types of food allergies, many of these children aren't going to be able to eat raw very much, simply because of the nature of either lutein allergies or anything else.

The basic fundamentals have gone missing, and that fundamental isn't a raw diet, becuase without gut flora, people can't eat or digest a raw foods diet let alone an anything else diet.

In terms of meats and fats, I totally agree with Jane S on that one. Even hard-working physical Europeans in outback Alaska require 500 grams of saturated fat a day to survive, and their cholesterol levels are just fine.

Although there is one food they ate that I could not. It was seal which was allowed to "rot" to the point where it had become an animal equivalent of probiotics, which they ate in largish quantities, but it smelled and tasted terrible. I also found native ice cream hard to get down. It was basically fat loaded with frozen berries in it... but the coating on the top of the palate was awful.

Whale meat was very different to what I thought it would be, and its heat provoking abilities appear to come from something other than fat, because the meat itself isn't fatty. Baleen wasn't to my taste, but their version of moose salami was wonderful, as was the dried salmon. They had a lot of dried herbs, and dried mushrooms galore, which they put in with various cooked dishes...

anyway...

Quote:
So, to me, embarking on the route of supplementation is similar to accepting medication for symptoms and not treating the causes.
I completely disagree with this viewpoint. If the only thing you have available to you is commercial fruit, you would be stupid not to eat it, but you'd be equally stupid not to supplement with vitamin C and additional vitamins on top of that.

If you came to this country, you would have a problem. Shelled brazils are rancid and not worth eating. Brazils in the shell you can get in december and that is it. The levels of selenium in this country are abysmal and unless you were prepared to eat a lot of seafood, which I'm not, you would be soon under the 1.0 millimol level, which means your enzyme pathways only work to one-third capacity. Not a good move.

The only way you would be able to live the way you say is to go and join the newfound world discovered in New Guinea a few days ago. There, you might find an environment that would support your vision of living... so long as you were prepared to be an omnivore.

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IMO the major cause of mineral and vitamin deficiencies is the cooked diet, not only because it doesn't bring enough of these substances
Lost me here. You can cook food with no loss of minerals and minimal loss of vitamins, but I guess if you think cooking means boiling everything and throwing the water out, then you would have problems...
Quote:
but also because their absorption and metabolism is disturbed.
Do you eat your beans, maize, potatoes, pumpkin and kumara raw?

Quote:
Everything in nature is toxic to a certain extent because noone wants to be eaten by others, so the key is to find the foods that our body is adapted to detoxify best.
that is a strange thing to say. Everything is nature isn't toxic. Some things are, obviously. For instance parsley isn't toxic to humans its bad news to chickens.
Quote:
Birds do great on grains because they have evolved mechanisms to neutralize their anti-nutrients.
Humans do just fine on grains too, when they are fermented and/or sprouted...

Quote:
Carnivors do great on meat for the same reason. What about humans? What can we eat most easily and naturally? That is to me going to the basics.
Well your basics aren't going to be mine, because I disagree with much of what you have said. You just wouldn't survive in either a place like Kalahari, or the arctic circle.

But as I said, I'm not here to argue personal fads.

You can debate that till the cows come home.

We all have to deal with the situations we are dealt, and to me the priorities are:

1) Healthy gut flora, since that constitutes over 70% of the immune system, and

2) That is where minerals are absorbed and some B vitamins made.

Without that foundation everything else is a collander.

So, assuming we get the gut right, then we look at fruit, vegetables, nuts, meat fish and white meats, fats, oils and drinkables to see what they provide in the way of know nutrients, and LAST on my list is, and always has been grains. Becasue that's the way my system works, but how others do it is their choice.

My basics may not be their basics, but if people say that is the way it works for them, that is as right as my approach IMO

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#84 of 1098 Old 02-08-2006, 10:45 AM
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#85 of 1098 Old 02-08-2006, 11:37 AM
 
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MT, I appreciate you taking the time to read the article and answer - I know you must be busy.
Just a few objections to your interesting answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
You missed out the key part in this quote, which is the action by phytate content.

That is totally overcome by using sourdough ferments. Everything you have put up there in terms of minerals absorption is meaningless in the context of the old historically proven methods of eating grains.
I didn't miss that. Two things here:
1- In the context of trying to find what is the optimal food for humans, I find that we should put first foods that require the minimum processing, ideally no processing at all - just pick and eat. If grains have to be processed, then they fall down a lot on the optimum list.
2- Even though sourdough greatly reduces the phytate content, there are important amounts left. Furthermore, not many people use this sort of processing. Quote: "Recent work has indicated that phytate must be almost totally removed to eliminate its inhibitory effect on nonheme iron absorption".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
The other thing that argues against his contention is Table 8, and that the country on his list that supposedly has the lowest grain intake i.e. America, actually has by far the highest percentage of problems and the consumes by far the vastest amount of health resources in the world. So you'd assume on the basis of grains being bad for you, that on the basis of that chart, USA would be the healthiest. Yet USA is not.
Yes, but what grains are replaced with is not raw food as I suggest. If the replacement is even worse than the grains, then of course the results can't be good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
I view this recent trend as yet another overlay of making a total hash of the basic issues surrounding gut flora and maintaining a healthy intestinal tract which is actually the foundation stone of our immunity and our nutrition.
...
The basic fundamentals have gone missing, and that fundamental isn't a raw diet, becuase without gut flora, people can't eat or digest a raw foods diet let alone an anything else diet.
We agree on the antibiotics, vaxes, etc. So the point is to find the basics beyond those. Of course I wouldn't dream of saying all the medical interventions are OK if we eat raw! When we return to a natural approach to health we exclude the obviously harmful stuff, but then we still need to ponder what is best for health, and that's when my raw idea comes in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
In terms of meats and fats, I totally agree with Jane S on that one. Even hard-working physical Europeans in outback Alaska require 500 grams of saturated fat a day to survive, and their cholesterol levels are just fine.
This is an interesting field in itself. My opinions:
1- the issue of animal products is a separate one from the raw one. There are lots of raw foodists that eat raw animal products. I might become one of them one day.
2- living in cold regions is often brought up as a major impediment to eating raw, yet noone ever questions the necessity of living in these places. I don't know why humans colonised these environments, but we are certainly not physiologically adapted for them yet (maybe in some million years we will). People talk of these issues while cosily sitting in heated apartments and actually living in an artificially tropical climate all through winter. I know it isn't possible to go back and undo all the humans ever did, but we can still try to provide to our bodies living conditions as close as possible to what we are truly adapted for. If we accept heating (yes, try to imagine surviving winter without it), why don't we accept that we should eat mainly fruits? Because we deceive ourselves in thinking we've adapted to other foods when in fact we have not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
If you came to this country, you would have a problem. Shelled brazils are rancid and not worth eating. Brazils in the shell you can get in december and that is it. The levels of selenium in this country are abysmal and unless you were prepared to eat a lot of seafood, which I'm not, you would be soon under the 1.0 millimol level, which means your enzyme pathways only work to one-third capacity. Not a good move.
So people should then just take their selenium supplements and go on encouraging the devastating agriculture? It isn't just about selenium or any number of other minerals. How do you supplement the yet unknown compounds that could be as important as the ones you know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Do you eat your beans, maize, potatoes, pumpkin and kumara raw?
That's the point! Why should I eat them when they are toxic to me? Why should I not concentrate on foods that are delicious raw and minimally toxic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
But as I said, I'm not here to argue personal fads.
I don't think the raw idea is a personal fad any more than the non-vaccinating is (even though many people would also call it that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
We all have to deal with the situations we are dealt, and to me the priorities are:
1) Healthy gut flora, since that constitutes over 70% of the immune system, and
2) That is where minerals are absorbed and some B vitamins made.
I agree with these, but how can we dissociate talking of gut flora from diet? It's like talking about the health of breathing without adressing the air quality.
So to me the priorities are:
1- eliminate all chemicals - medication, but also the endless food additives plus pesticides
2- eat foods raw to the extent that it is possible. Of course 100% is impossible right away for an infinity of reasons, but if raw is not a goal at all the cooked food takes over in no time at all (otherwise it wouldn't be so widespread as it is).
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Well, if anyone cares, after a few days of cod liver oil and kefir, my diarrhea has abated somewhat. Is this too soon to see a real effect? I am actually craving the kefir. Ds1 also will drink CLO mixed in orange juice.

DS1 2004 ~ DS2 2005 ~ DD1 2008 ~ DS3 2010 ~ DD2 due Dec. 2014
On hospital bedrest for pPROM since 23 weeks
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#87 of 1098 Old 02-08-2006, 11:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JaneS
Regarding using store bought yogurt as starter:

I have found that it's perfectly acceptable, as did Goodpapa. The test is in the taste and the texture. If you have a very tart and gelled product at the end, it contains the live bacteria it should (especially if you make 24 hr. yogurt as I do, there is no doubt.)

However, it's not cost effective for me since you only use 1/4 cup yogurt per quart, and it should be freshly opened. I don't eat lactose right now, so I'd end up throwing the rest of the container away.

Goodpapa branched out using probiotic capsules as his starter, something like 6-8 capsules per 6 oz milk (check the "Power of Probiotics" thread to be sure) just to get specific strains. When that was turned into yogurt, he then used that small amount as starter for a larger batch.
Thanks for this additional info. I do end up with a nicely gelled yogurt although I don't typically ferment for 24 hours - more like 10-12. I also don't like wasting the store bought stuff when I don't use it all so it would be nice not to have to buy it at all.

I searched the Power of Probiotics thread and found this post by Goodpapa: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6&postcount=57

It sounds like you're right - he makes a small, 2 cup batch of starter yogurt using 6 Jarrow caps per cup of yogurt. Then he uses that starter to make larger quantities of yogurt. I have a bottle of Jarrow in my fridge right now and I am due to make more yogurt. I'm wondering if I should try this method...

Thanks again!
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#88 of 1098 Old 02-08-2006, 11:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
The third thing we need to know is that PPD and other depressive disorders can be, and most often are, nutritionally related.
In the context of the magnesium discussion coming down the pike in this thread, magnesium deficiencies are correlated with depression and, more specifically, to suicidal tendencies. Magnesium is a big issue in PPD. And it's important to correct. Some other fun things that come down the pike if you don't:

hypertension (preeclampsia)
asthma
thyroid problems :

Magnesium deficiencies are a bugger to detect. Most body magnesium is in the bones; serum levels or red blood cell levels are not indicative of the body's load of magnesium. The most common test used in research is a loading test where they give you a magnesium supplement and you collect your urine for the next 24 hours. You sample your urine, send it in, and they test for magnesium. If you have excreted a lot it suggests you are not deficient, but if your body sucks it up we can assume it jumped on it and is putting it to use.

Magnesium is most plentiful in grains, but the phytates reduce your body's ability to absorb the magnesium by about half. Some cooking techniques will reduce the phytates a bit, but MT's right in that fermentation is the most effective path. Sourdough is the ticket for bread, soaking whole grains for porridge or for salads is appropriate too (soak in warm water and 1-2 tbs whey for 12 hours).

Not to send everyone rushing out to eat sourdough, you can get magnesium from a lot of other sources too -- dark greens, legumes, and a host of other things. I am deficient and I don't eat grains. But I do supplement. I've had good luck with magnesium glycinate.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#89 of 1098 Old 02-08-2006, 12:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Planta
1- In the context of trying to find what is the optimal food for humans, I find that we should put first foods that require the minimum processing, ideally no processing at all - just pick and eat. If grains have to be processed, then they fall down a lot on the optimum list.
2- Even though sourdough greatly reduces the phytate content, there are important amounts left. Furthermore, not many people use this sort of processing. Quote: "Recent work has indicated that phytate must be almost totally removed to eliminate its inhibitory effect on nonheme iron absorption".
I'm not a big grain fan myself, but "processing" is a loaded term here. Sure, there is a process one must follow to maximize nutrition in the grains, but that process is a fermentation process which is not at all in the league of milling white flour or some such.

You can "process" vegetables too to increase their vitamin content -- ferment them.

Whatever whole foods we all happen to have in our diets, we should be looking for such tricks to enhance their nutritional value.

And on supplements and soil, I agree with you that we shouldn't just give up on the soil and pop some pills. But there are specific areas of the world with soil deficiencies in key minerals and natives had to go to great lengths to avoid related disease. We can pop a pill instead, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also be engaging in good soil practices.

I'm curious what you eat Planta. I'd have to be a raw meat eater if I went that way.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#90 of 1098 Old 02-08-2006, 12:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Galatea
Well, if anyone cares, after a few days of cod liver oil and kefir, my diarrhea has abated somewhat. Is this too soon to see a real effect? I am actually craving the kefir. Ds1 also will drink CLO mixed in orange juice.
Not at all . . . I have found that changing my diet to address a problem (once I've figured out your particular problem) yields change rather quickly. So . . .

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Nirvana is . . . the living happiness of a soul which is conscious of itself and conscious of having found its own abode in the heart of the Eternal. --Gandhi
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