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#181 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 01:02 PM
 
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I've come to this late..... my eyes are bleeding from reading the sorry tale.
I can see the problem

I have met americans who think England is so small that we must all know each other (Oh Oxford near London? I have a second cousin there - do you know him? Said to me in Mexico - I am not kidding) During the summer the whole place is overrun with americans taking photos of our cultural heritage and trying to work out how some part of it might be theirs. I know that all of you are not like this but it is true to say that some are.

Those of you who are saying stereotying is wrong are right to draw attention to it as it is the seed of a much greater problem. From over here your country definitely needs a bit of a reality check where respect for others is concerned so every little helps.

As for slings - it is so unusual to meet people IRL who say kind things about sling wearing that I can see why the OP wanted to shout about it.
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#182 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 01:24 PM
 
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From the original post I don't see a stereotype being used. She told exactly what was said and says she loves his accent. That I would think is a compliment to the man and not a stereotype. Fact is, he had an Asian accent she found beautiful.

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#183 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 02:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sarajane
From the original post I don't see a stereotype being used. She told exactly what was said and says she loves his accent. That I would think is a compliment to the man and not a stereotype. Fact is, he had an Asian accent she found beautiful.
... but then she quoted his broken english - not a very respectful rendition of how the man presented himself.

I still want to know if she would have told this story exactly the same way if he was standing right next to her.
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#184 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 02:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UrbanPlanter
I still want to know if she would have told this story exactly the same way if he was standing right next to her.
Let's face it, UP, by now it seems pretty clear that the sad fact is she WOULD.
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#185 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 02:53 PM
 
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OT girlndocs I love your siggie
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#186 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 04:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UrbanPlanter
... but then she quoted his broken english - not a very respectful rendition of how the man presented himself.
I guess I don't see that as a bad thing seeing as it is only proper when quoting someone to quote it exactly as they said it. If I tried speaking in another language I wouldn't expect to be quoted as speaking it perfectly, that would be silly.

If he has no problem presenting himself with his "broken english" then I doubt he has a problem being quoted as such. I don't think anybody expected him to speak it perfectly.

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#187 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 04:41 PM
 
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I was thinking about this. If someone posts on a message board, and I responded with all their typos and grammatical errors in quotes, that would be seen passive aggressively being antagonistic, not as trying to continue the conversation.

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#188 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 05:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarajane

If he has no problem presenting himself with his "broken english" then I doubt he has a problem being quoted as such. I don't think anybody expected him to speak it perfectly.
do you honestly believe that? i can't speak for him, but when i've tried to communicate in other languages (and always ended up sounding really bad...) i've always been extremely embarrassed.

maybe thats what you guys want to believe so you can feel better about yourselves for making fun of them at the end of the day.

i guess it's probably pretty easy to live that way though.
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#189 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 05:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I was thinking about this. If someone posts on a message board, and I responded with all their typos and grammatical errors in quotes, that would be seen passive aggressively being antagonistic, not as trying to continue the conversation.
Should you correct their spelling and grammer in their quote instead? Or just avoid quoting them?

I think if you quote exactly what they said.....spelling, grammer, and all...........and responded to their post.....that would be fine. :sgrug

Maybe I don't get what you are trying to say... :

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#190 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 05:29 PM
 
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No, AngelBee, you don't.

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#191 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 05:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
Maybe I don't get what you are trying to say...
Maybe because you have never experienced being of an ethnicity that is routinely stereotyped in a degrading way ...
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#192 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by girlndocs
Maybe because you have never experienced being of an ethnicity that is routinely stereotyped in a degrading way ...
I have been called a whop and a dago (sp?) all my life. I have been teased that my grandpa was the Godfather.

My son is Native American, Black French Creo, Spanish, Italian, Puerto Rican, and a mix of a couple other caucasion ethinticities.

I know about stereotyping.

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#193 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 06:00 PM
 
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I have one serious question to the OP:


If you had told this story to a group of people, would you have done the guy's accent the same way?



And if you had told it to a group of people including a bunch of Asians, would you also have?



If you answer both questions with "yes", I think there's some validity in the way you told it here. Especially considering the fact that I"m afraid you wouldn't have too many IRL friends to tell it to, you dh's comments about the 180 degrees notwithstanding
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#194 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 06:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
I know about stereotyping.
Then why do you seem so clueless about stereotypes and exoticification hurting people?

I dunno, when someone comes to me and says "hey, _____ offends me and here's why." I tend to stop, look and listen. And I sure as all heck do not try to make it all. about. me. like so many folks.
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#195 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 06:01 PM
 
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Simonee, I think I agree with your whole post!

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#196 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 06:15 PM
 
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wow. people get so uptight about this stuff. like it's never ok to point out our differences. because different must = bad.
my father was born in Italy. He, himself, will make fun of his own father's (my grandfather's) extremely broken English, right in front of Nonno, and Nonno will laugh. We all think it's CUTE that he says scrimps instead of shrimp. Is my Dad prejudiced against his own Italian heritage? of course not. Am I a hateful biased granddaughter for making the funny Italian accent when I quote my Nonno? definitely not. I'm doing it in a loving way, and because honestly- it is funny. Even small children love playing with words to make them sound different because it's a form of humor. And if you think other cultures don't make fun of American accents you're kidding yourselves- and personally I would care less if someone made fun of my Rhode Island accent if it wasn't meant in a mean way.
There is a huge difference between a KKK member using so-called ebonics sarcastically to hatefully make fun of a different race, and a person using language differences to illustrate a conversation- to accuse someone of being prejudiced is a really big deal.

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#197 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 06:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarajane
I guess I don't see that as a bad thing seeing as it is only proper when quoting someone to quote it exactly as they said it. If I tried speaking in another language I wouldn't expect to be quoted as speaking it perfectly, that would be silly.

If he had a french or english accent would it have been stated that way?

I can admit that I would have found it all the more cute that the man had an accent but it didn't add anything to the story. So what was the point?

a written quote isn't supposed to be edited. I'm not sure a person quoting what someone said with their voie is the same. The person writing the original quote is responsible for the correctness.

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#198 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 06:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bri276
There is a huge difference between a KKK member using so-called ebonics sarcastically to hatefully make fun of a different race, and a person using language differences to illustrate a conversation- to accuse someone of being prejudiced is a really big deal.
I think you have some valid points. However, the "vibe" I got from this thread and the other one about the "beautiful chinese woman" were that the differences were not being celebrated or used to illustrate a conversation, but more in a "noble savage" sort of way.

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#199 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 06:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Selu Gigage
Then why do you seem so clueless about stereotypes and exoticification hurting people?

I dunno, when someone comes to me and says "hey, _____ offends me and here's why." I tend to stop, look and listen. And I sure as all heck do not try to make it all. about. me. like so many folks.
It is all about intent.

Does the person stereotyping me or my family mean it in a hateful way?

Do they appreciate our differences and think we are "cute"?

I celebrate my families differences. We may talk cute, dress funny, talk loud, or us our hands to much............I am proud of those things. I love when people pointed out my papas accent. I love when they comment on the tone of my sons skin. I believe it shows appreciatiion for our differences.

Everything can be a stereotype.............you can't get away from that.

It is all about perspective...........and I chose to see the glass as half full.

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#200 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 06:53 PM
 
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Angela, I must say this last post has helped me to see something... even if it was not the glass. :
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#201 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 07:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Selu Gigage
Angela, I must say this last post has helped me to see something... even if it was not the glass. :
What did you see???









Are you seeing dead people again???







: (6th sense....... : )

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#202 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 07:24 PM
 
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Past_VNE, what a great experience that must have been. I would have been warmed from head to toe after that conversation! I never used any sort of sling with my first - didn't learn about them until it was too late. Now I already have two maya wraps in the ready for the new babe. Thanks to reading your story, I also want to get a Mei Tei (sp?). Thanks!

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#203 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 07:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanPlanter
so, here are the descriptors which paint the stereotypical picture:
- older asian man
- beautiful accent
- quotes of broken english
- "gestures"

and then... the grand finale...

gawd, this just harkens back to that laundry detergent commercial of the 70's where the Asian laundryman says he has an "anciant chinese secret".

this story could have been relayed in a much less stereotypical/offensive way, just stating that an asian man who is familiar with the meitei carrier was impressed that we were using one bc he never sees them in america, and so on, and how lovely he was in the conversation... whatever.

do I make any sense? yawn.........
EXCEPT that THIS is what this man did and said.. She was using HIS WORDS and gestures as HE used them.. She RELAYED a STORY as it HAPPENED TO HER..

Normally I would agree with you.. I don't see it here..

I thought it was an endearing story..

I have gotten comments on my sling from a woman from South Africa who said it was very similiar to how they carried their babies there, and from interestingly enough, an older asian lady who works at.. Ok here I got ethinically stereotyping.. PANDA EXPRESS!!!

She also said that it looked very similiar to the baby carries they used.. All smiles like she was reminiscing about either a)when her children were little or b) when she was a child herself..

Simply because a person who is of an ethnicity doing something that has been stereotyped FOR that ethnicity and is related by written word using their EXACT words does NOT make it stereotypical..

The OP was NOT talking about ALL the asian people who say this to her, or who may speak this way..

She is relaying a story about a specific man who used THESE words, and used THESE gestures in THIS way with an accent (and here may be the only thing that could even been deemed stereotypical) that is usually recognized as asian..

Warm Squishy Feelings..
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#204 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 08:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by guerrillamama
I think you are stereotyping and exotifying Asian people, and it's not cool. Our accents and culture are not cutesy knicknacks for the amusement of white people. Your post really really bugged me.
:
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#205 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 09:55 PM
 
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Wow. I don't post here very often, and was referred from another board, but this has been blown so far out of context I'm surprised some of you can still see the ground.

The OP was trying to tell a sweet, enlightening story. She used colorful language to describe what happened. It would not have had the same charm had she used the dull, lifeless language someone else used a few pages back. That was boring, and frankly, I don't think it made the point nearly as well as the OP did.

People are all different. If I went to France and used my (bad) French to compliment someone, it would not bother me in the least to have them copy my words in a post such as this. Indeed, I would be disappointed to find that they had cleaned it up, especially if it was my words that had touched them in the first place -- that I was paying them a compliment despite my incomplete knowledge of their language.

This is probably not going to go over well, but it seems to me that many people are eager to find excuses to be offended. I'm an atheist, and for a long time, I took it negatively and personally if someone dared to say "Bless you!" when I sneezed (how dare they!). I found it personally offensive if they said something off-hand about how Canadians are all (fill in the blank), being that I was born in Canada. I became a Christian for a while, and then found endless examples of persecution against my new-found religion.

Was any of this warranted? No. Was it helpful to me or those around me? No. All it did was engender bad feelings all around. I'm not "blaming the victim" here, because in retrospect, there was no victim. Not everything people say has to be taken personally. Not every comment involving someone of a different nationality says "I'm a racist!" Not every perceived slight is actually meant as one. And while there is a great deal of racism in this world, *quoting* a person's speech in an online forum is not in itself a racist act.

Take a deep breath, step back, and look at it without an expectation of offense. It makes a big difference.
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#206 of 212 Old 06-18-2005, 10:08 PM
 
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I don't usually get involved with these kind of threads, since I don't post here a lot, but I've been musing over this all day ...

I'm Italian-American. A significant portion of my relatives are immigrants or still live in Italy. If the OP had related the same story, except she was in an Italian restaurant, and had related the broken English used by an Italian immigrant, I would not have been at all offended, unless it was done maliciously or mockingly. I didn't pick that up at all here.

I love my relatives. They almost all speak broken English, to varying degrees. When I relate stories about them, or write about them, I try to capture their language as it is spoken; I don't edit it for grammatical correctness or proper pronunciation. That's not who they are. Their usage of the language, however improper or "stereotypical" is part of what makes them unique and beautiful. To correct their language for them doesn't just flatten their character and personality, it's actually a bit insulting.

If my Zia (aunt) says to me, "Oh, dio, che bella bambina! She want a sangwich?" and I want to write that down in my journal or as part of a story, I'm not going to write, "My, what a lovely baby. May I make her a sandwich?" That makes her sound like a completely different person, even changes her personality. It would leach her ethnicity, which is a big part of her, completely away.

I don't know; I would like to think that if the shoe were on the other foot, and my relatives found my broken Italian charming, they would feel free to share that as part of MY personality and not feel like they had to pretend I'm not an American because it would be stereotyping.

Now, if someone giggled at my father, who looks Italian but has perfect English diction, and related his language to reflect a thick immigrant-speak, THAT would be stereotyping. If someone looked at him and said, "I bet he's in the mob and loves capicolla," THAT would be stereotyping. If someone related my aunt's speech, not as she actually speaks it, but made it up to sound more "Italian," THAT would be stereotyping.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not stereotyping to portray someone as they are. Would we be having this discussion if the OP were describing a Texan twang, or a Boston accent, or Long Island talk?
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#207 of 212 Old 06-19-2005, 12:16 AM
 
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The fact that this man was of a marginalized ethnicity, and the OP is of apparently of the marginalizING ethnicity, changes the context dramatically.

Or, to put it differently, there is a big difference between being caricatured as the tough cowboy character in a John Wayne movie, and caricatured as the Asian neighbor in "Breakfast at Tiffany's".
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#208 of 212 Old 06-19-2005, 12:46 AM
 
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for heaven's sake, people.

i'm joining the dissenters. i really enjoyed VNE's op.

maybe you see it as stereotypical because you know that old asian men are like that and you are all so afraid of being politically incorrect that you don't want to admit it? :

Pynki hit the nail on the head. "THIS is what this man did and said.. She was using HIS WORDS and gestures as HE used them.. She RELAYED a STORY as it HAPPENED TO HER.. " <-- yes, that.
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#209 of 212 Old 06-19-2005, 12:48 AM
 
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what's next, is the PC crowd here going to try to ban the Joy Luck Club because Amy Tan wrote about asian people like this?

gah.
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#210 of 212 Old 06-19-2005, 01:46 AM
 
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Wow! I can't believe this is still going on...

Jenne

joy.gifOur joy is born!  joy.gif
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