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#61 of 143 Old 03-16-2009, 05:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate View Post
By the way - this letter was written in 5 minutes, while I was nursing my son at the computer. It's amazing how productive one can be without having to mix bottles all day...
Totally love it!

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#62 of 143 Old 03-16-2009, 05:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ursimama View Post
Rosin's article never mentions the issue that much of the burden she and other breastfeeding mothers experience would be lifted almost entirely by a guaranteed maternity leave for a year, with options for extending that year. We live in a terribly family and child unfriendly country. Her perspective is very limited in that she does not discuss European policies on maternity leave. While I think that breastfeeding can be difficult and draining for different moms in different ways, I really wonder her tone is so smug and so disdainful toward women who have tried to make breastfeeding work for them. I feel that any woman who breastfeeds should be supported.

ITA, the burden she feels is the society's anti-breastfeeding and generally anti-mom bias. NOT the inherent burden of bfing :

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#63 of 143 Old 03-16-2009, 07:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MaryJaneLouise View Post
That's a good point.

And a disclaimer -- I'm not meaning this as an anti-FFer rant, truly.

But you know what I have found with some anti-BFing folks is, sometimes their kids DO have major health problems. And they STILL do not see the connections. It's quite frustrating, especially when discussing in venues other than IRL. When discussing BFing, they will loudly proclaim their kids the smartest, healthiest, most well adjusted kids on the planet and are JUST FINE THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Then later, the will about having to put in ear tubes, or about their kid's asthma, or chronic diarrhea, or something. I think it's some level of denial going here, truly.
I find this to be true too. But I honestly think that it may not be denial, but that they believe all babies have these problems, so much so that they are not really actually health problems, but rather episodes in a baby's life, like cradle cap or teething.

ETA: I find the article to be defensive, self-centered, and whiny. If she wanted to give women "permission" to breastfeed part-time, she could have done so in a positive way. I'm offended that she makes breastfeeding and breastmilk out to have no inherent value. I agree with previous posters who have said that it makes no sense to require proof of breastmilk's superiority.
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#64 of 143 Old 03-16-2009, 07:39 PM
 
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I'm just so glad to read other rational responses to this article. I just about swallowed my tongue when I saw this woman on the Today Show this morning.

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#65 of 143 Old 03-16-2009, 08:10 PM
 
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She was on the Today Show? Oh, criminy.

ETA: Here's a link to the Today Show "article" --check out the link at the bottom with a poll.

Stacey teaching teens to read & write... Daddy plays ska, DD1 (7/05) loves trees & princesses, & DD2 (3/10) loves mommy-milk! Please get your kids tested for lead.
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#66 of 143 Old 03-16-2009, 08:28 PM
 
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She was on the Today Show? Oh, criminy.

ETA: Here's a link to the Today Show "article" --check out the link at the bottom with a poll.
Yeah, it was her, Today's medical editor and the anchor, and they had this fabulous breastfeeding bashing session, about how hard it was, and it was impossible if you worked and it took so much time, etc., etc., etc. The author went on and on about how breastmilk wasn't medicine and the medical editor went off on how formula was just as good. Really, it was one of the most socially irresponsible pieces I've seen in a while.

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#67 of 143 Old 03-16-2009, 10:07 PM
 
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This is a great discussion.

I read most of the article, but not all. A few genuine questions:

Let's say that the scientific studies supporting BF truly are flawed and/or actually show only a tiny advantage to BF over formula feeding:

1. Why hasn't the formula industry pounced on that and publicized it?

2. What is the motivation of doctors/AAP to promote BF? You'd think everyone would make more money by pushing formula.

And if we live in such a BF-pushy society

1. Why do most women not even BF past 3 months?

2. Why are the BF women hiding in dressing rooms, cars, bathrooms, etc. to nurse, while FF moms can "openly bottle feed" anywhere they want? Why is it that we need laws to "allow" BF women to feed their babies in public?

3. Why do groups like LLL hold group meetings so that BF moms feel supported, but nobody holds group meetings for FF moms to talk about the guilt that society has thrust upon them for not BF?
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#68 of 143 Old 03-16-2009, 11:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kappa View Post
I find this to be true too. But I honestly think that it may not be denial, but that they believe all babies have these problems, so much so that they are not really actually health problems, but rather episodes in a baby's life, like cradle cap or teething.
My dear, dear FF friend quotes her pedi: "Kids get sick." This is the open-armed explanation she gets for the many trips for ear probs, colds, flus, foot-and-mouth, etc etc etc. My DS is nearly 2 and has been sick ONCE, I was sick for a month, he was sick for a day. However, I'm not sure it's all about BF/FF, I think vaxing also contributes to the blanket acception of "kids getting sick."

I also think this article was empty and mean-spirited. I had a horrid birth experience and didn't even think to bond with DS until he was 48 hours old...it wasn't until the breastfeeding relationship began that my oxytocin kicked in, and I swear I was high on it for a good 3 months. I LOVED LOVED LOVED my son more than I ever figured I even could. It was so good for bonding. If DS were sick, it wouldn't be a "chore" to tend to him, I wouldn't vex my DH for not being able to care for him as well as Mumma can. It hurts me that anyone would even present this as a defense for not breastfeeding...these poor children!
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#69 of 143 Old 03-16-2009, 11:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by QueeTheBean View Post
And if we live in such a BF-pushy society

1. Why do most women not even BF past 3 months?

2. Why are the BF women hiding in dressing rooms, cars, bathrooms, etc. to nurse, while FF moms can "openly bottle feed" anywhere they want? Why is it that we need laws to "allow" BF women to feed their babies in public?

3. Why do groups like LLL hold group meetings so that BF moms feel supported, but nobody holds group meetings for FF moms to talk about the guilt that society has thrust upon them for not BF?

Good point!
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#70 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 12:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AnalogWife View Post
My dear, dear FF friend quotes her pedi: "Kids get sick." This is the open-armed explanation she gets for the many trips for ear probs, colds, flus, foot-and-mouth, etc etc etc. My DS is nearly 2 and has been sick ONCE, I was sick for a month, he was sick for a day. However, I'm not sure it's all about BF/FF, I think vaxing also contributes to the blanket acception of "kids getting sick."

I also think this article was empty and mean-spirited. I had a horrid birth experience and didn't even think to bond with DS until he was 48 hours old...it wasn't until the breastfeeding relationship began that my oxytocin kicked in, and I swear I was high on it for a good 3 months. I LOVED LOVED LOVED my son more than I ever figured I even could. It was so good for bonding. If DS were sick, it wouldn't be a "chore" to tend to him, I wouldn't vex my DH for not being able to care for him as well as Mumma can. It hurts me that anyone would even present this as a defense for not breastfeeding...these poor children!
My son is the same, he has had a cold once, no antibiotics were prescribed/required. Just fluids, rest, and a little tylenol for comfort. He actually has only had one prescription, for nystatin for thrush. And he goes to the dreaded hotbed of superbugs, teh DAAYY-CARE! He is vaxed but we take it easy (delayed/relaxed schedule). Not ALL kids get sick, it's just not true.
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#71 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 03:12 AM
 
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I think that this is a large part of what leads to rants like this article. Breast is NOT best, it never was, it never will be. It is the standard for our species, for any mammal. I think that placing it up on a pedestal by saying that it's the best way to feed your child, to nourish your child, places a huge target on it and makes it even more subject to the type of lashing out that is exhibited in this article. It is the standard to which everything else has to be compared, including formula. Not the other way around. We have spent many, many years trying to prove that breastmilk and BFing is better than formula when it should be the other way around. Formula needs to prove itself, it needs to prove itself to be an equal to breastmilk or pretty darned close to it. Breastmilk has already proved itself many, many times over IMO. If it hadn't then we would no longer exist as a species. Why did something that has been around for about the last 100 years suddenly become the standard instead of the substance that humans and all mammals have lived on for millions of years?
Jeanine123 - I have to disagree; I believe that breastfeeding is the best way for so many reasons, and I don't believe that I'm making a subjective statement. I don't have to list the reasons why I think this on this board - I would of course be preaching to the choir. When we say that something is standard, we are just saying it's the normal way of doing things - and for many many people in our modern American society - breastfeeding is not standard. I don't believe using the word "standard" adequately describes the status of breastfeeding. People need to hear that breastfeeding is BETTER than formula, not that it's just 'standard'.

I get your point that BF is 'standard' for our species and has been until a few decades ago. But right now, in this culture and climate of FF - the word 'standard' doesn't help much. It actually sounds funny, because today woman do have a choice to either BF or FF, and among those choices which is better? Well, we do know (for all the myriad reasons) that BF is better, and thus, therefore, it is 'best'.

I would agree with you that Formula must bear the burden of proof in the quest to prove itself as a worthy substitute.

That said, I don't believe FF is evil, by any stretch of the imagination. I'm glad it exists for mothers who truly need it.

There are going to be wars over BF and FF regardless of semantics, but ceasing to use the word 'best' will hardly stop them from happening. I'd be hard-pressed to judge another woman's choice to BF or FF, but I would, if asked, tell any woman I think she should seriously consider BFing because it is superior, or best - and yes, over the course of human history, it is also standard.

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#72 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 11:25 AM
 
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I don' read it all ,but this is my shy comment!

The author sound very regretful with motherhood in general.

She wants a strong scientific evidences from the medical field. Please!!... We're mammals, We (humans) are born to be feed by ours mother with human milk. Formula, sure it's an option, but still inferior, as fast food is inferior to foods in as close to their natural state.

Now, one thing that bother me all the time. Why we need numbers to measure everything?. .... so far, for what I know,You can't measure love in numbers. And for sure, love is good for you, and for all humans... right?. You don't need science to prove that.

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#73 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Lizbiz View Post

I get your point that BF is 'standard' for our species and has been until a few decades ago. But right now, in this culture and climate of FF - the word 'standard' doesn't help much. It actually sounds funny, because today woman do have a choice to either BF or FF, and among those choices which is better? Well, we do know (for all the myriad reasons) that BF is better, and thus, therefore, it is 'best'.

I would agree with you that Formula must bear the burden of proof in the quest to prove itself as a worthy substitute.

But where has "Breast is Best" gotten us? The BFing rates haven't really increased that much, have they? Especially not when it comes to BFing beyond the first few weeks/months. Why this need to put it up on a pedestal? We all want to TRY to provide the best for our children but we know that at times that isn't possible so we look for an acceptable alternative. So if BFing is BEST then yes, people will try to do it. But if they don't succeed for whatever reason then hey, formula's not so bad. Sure it isn't the BEST but we know deep down that we can't always provide the best for our kids so it must be an acceptable alternative. After all, if it wasn't then why do so many drs and HCP push it? Why do they tell us that BFing is BEST? Wouldn't that then imply that formula is a close, acceptable second?

Breastmilk is the standard and putting it up on a pedestal and describing it in glowing terms as the best, the gold standard, etc etc hasn't really gotten us anywhere as far as more babies being BF. Why not start framing our discussions more accurately and be more upfront about the increases in illness with formula use instead of a decrease in illness with BFing. Would you really choose something that increases your child's risk for something?

I'm sure this has been posted numerous times here but this article is what really got me thinking about this whole approach and is a good read/reminder of why it might not be a bad idea to change the way we think and speak about this topic.

http://www.bobrow.net/kimberly/birth/BFLanguage.html
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#74 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 12:26 PM
 
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MSN had an article about the article... loved this quote.


Quote:
“Formula is wonderful,” she said.

Despite her research showing that formula-fed babies can grow up just fine, Rosin wrote that she remains ambivalent about the subject. While she still breast-feeds her infant son, she also feels no guilt if she feeds him formula because her schedule doesn’t give her time to nurse him.

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#75 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 01:07 PM
 
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Yeah, probably shouldn't.

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#76 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 01:12 PM
 
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Just a reminder to please keep the Lactivism forum guidelines in mind when posting:
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The Lactivism forum is not intended to be a place where MDCers to bash mothers who are formula feeding. It is understandable that lactivists become frustrated over the mainstream formula feeding culture. Criticizing ideas, campaigns, and actions that negatively impact breastfeeding are all acceptable forms of lactivism. Name calling, criticizing individuals, or attacking women who choose to formula feed as a group are not.
Discussing the article is fine, and because the author also inserted herself in the story, I realize this is a fine line. But please be aware that the line is there and try your best not to cross it.

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#77 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 01:47 PM
 
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.... After all, if it wasn't then why do so many drs and HCP push it? ....
Most women doctors get 6-8 weeks of maternity leave -then they are back to work in a very stressful environment. They have experienced the most challenging part of breastfeeding - the first week with latch issues and soreness - but not the joys of being a relaxed Mom with a happy baby. When the docs do return to work, even pumping will be difficult because of the work stress. It is hard for them to "push" breastfeeding for 6 months exclusively when for the most part they have not done it themselves. (Also, higher income women are more likely to get c-sections - because of deep suctioning, this reduces the likelihood that the baby will latch properly.

The only woman I know who was encouraged to breastfeed by a HCP had a preemie - the nurses told her breast milk would help her baby go home sooner. She had FF her previous baby.

It is very disappointing that the HCP are not "pro" breastfeeding - since the maternal and infant benefits are very real.
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#78 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 02:13 PM
 
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Why did something that has been around for about the last 100 years suddenly become the standard instead of the substance that humans and all mammals have lived on for millions of years?
Marketing, also known as "targeted propaganda".

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#79 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 02:21 PM
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Marketing, also known as "targeted propaganda".
Exactly. So why do we continue to perpetuate it by continuing to buy into the "Breast is Best" message?
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#80 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 04:19 PM
 
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All of her "science" arguments were done by picking and choosing certain studies rather than looking at the totality of the evidence. She also doesn't even talk about the benefits to mothers, such as decreased breast cancer risk, weight loss, etc.

I wrote a response to her feminist arguments on my blog:

http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/0...anti-feminist/

I think she has a really narrow view of feminism and is trying to project her own ideals, the failings within her own relationship, and her lack of creativity onto a whole gender. Ridiculous.
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#81 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 04:30 PM
 
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There is a second article applauding the first one
@@

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marb...t-breastfeed-0

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#82 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 04:36 PM
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Great response!! Imagine that, using actual STUDIES to support what you're saying!
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#83 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 06:11 PM
 
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I've adjusted the above link so it goes to the article and not to the comments. Please keep in mind that, while discussing a blog entry is fine, targetting the comments is against the User Agreement:
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Do not post to invite MDC members to other boards for adversarial purposes or post inflammatory information about MDC discussions at other boards, or about communities and discussions elsewhere, regardless of whether or not you link to that discussion or community. This is to maintain and respect the integrity of our own and other communities.

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#84 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 06:36 PM
 
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#85 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 09:23 PM
 
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Wow, that one's almost as bad.

Quote:
“It’s nice to breast-feed. It’s lovely. It’s a bonding thing and it’s really sweet,” she said. “It’s just that it’s not medicine.”
Ah, I see. It's good to breastfeed because it's NICE. It doesn't make any difference to health, but it's SWEET.

Quote:
Breast-feeding also has benefits for the mother. Research indicates that it produces hormones that make the womb shrink to its normal size faster and, because it consumes calories, it can help a woman more quickly lose the weight she gained during pregnancy and it delays the resumption of menstruation, which helps nursing women retain more iron.
Really? These are the ONLY benefits to the mother from breastfeeding? Guess I was wrong when I believed that breastfeeding reduced my risk of ovarian and breast cancer, diabetes, postpartum depression, etc.

Quote:
“Formula is wonderful,” she said.
Wonderful? Riiiiight. Useful? Sure. Necessary? Sometimes. Wonderful? Not so much.

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#86 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 09:34 PM
 
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If BM isn't medicine then now did my DS's eye goop clear up within 2-3 days after squirting it into his eye, when he had the clogged duct for 5 straight months after birth?

People say the author is defensive, I think she's OFFensive and trying to riducule the lactivism side just to be a bully or get paid by the Atlantic, I don't know. It's probably the worst article I've ever read. SO MUCH she has left out, obviously for a reason.
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#87 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 09:44 PM
 
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And as a working mother, I didn't just "have" to pump at work, I enjoyed it! My employer gives me longer, extra breaks to do so which allowed me 20-minute mediation breaks, or to just listen to the radio, etc. The oxytocin high was always worth it. And the whole argument about wanting to sock people in the face when they say BM is free "but not if the woman's time is worth nothing!" I got paid for my breaks. And at home, my time is family time not just ME time.
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#88 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 10:03 PM
 
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Well, fruits and vegetables aren't medicine, either, but people who eat 5 f/v per day have less than half the cancer rate than people who eat only 2.

Kale and dumbells aren't medicine, but a high calcium diet and weight bearing exercise cut the chances of osteoporosis down by about 2/3.

For that matter, Vit C, iron, and niacin aren't medicine but they cure scurvy, pellagra, and beriberi respectively.

Where are the editors? Egad. CLUELESS.

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#89 of 143 Old 03-17-2009, 10:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JessasMilkMama View Post
There is a second article applauding the first one
@@

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marb...t-breastfeed-0
I stand corrected---THIS was the worst article I've ever read.
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I just listened to the first part of Hanna Rosin on the Brian Lehrer show, and the first caller was a doc from Chapel Hill, NC. She was so awesome. I probably think that because she basically said what I wrote upthread- "You are not reading all the literature, nor reading it correctly," in the most polite, intelligent way. I love a good verbal smackdown, especially a classy one.

Trying to turn hearts and minds toward universal healthcare, one post at a time.
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